Apostasy Prologue, what happens and what it could mean lore wise.

[KelsierSurvivor]

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)TJC569 said:

So Space Mom read our dreams and forged a personality from it? Hope she didnt see what else I might have been dreaming about for however long the Operator was asleep. 

Yeah... I've had some dreams that are a little, how should I put it... too pleasant? (Nothing inappropriate, just personal stuff. Lol)

[TemperedWind]

On 12/22/2017 at 10:41 AM, schilds said:

We might have been there at a different time to what we were watching.

THE WAR WITHIN SPOILERS 

It could be something similar to The War Within / Queens type of thing, in TWW the things that the queen(s) were telling us have already happened and we were just remembering, where as in The Apostasy Prologue the event already happened, and somehow by someone's power or whatever we were able to see back in time, because remember how after the first time you meet The Ravenous Golden Maw, you see like a statue of light (maybe because the Queens are too weak for anything more??) before you get your first ability, this could have the same concept but on a much MUCH larger scale.

Just my 2 cents on the matter

Also, F*** that quest, I'm not losing my space mom 😣😣

I'll wait until The Sacrifice is implemented, then I'll play them both.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

On 31/01/2018 at 3:00 AM, Wolfren-13 said:

Edit: Rewatched the chains of harrow quest and Palladino says "Great sentient queen, forgive me, but what you are, what you've made of yourself... is merely drawn from the dreams of these divine children. You are not she. You are not... Margulis."

I think Palladino would know and mention if Lotus was controlling or in possession of Margulis' body.

But what if "dreams of these divine children" is just a figure of speech description for "transference"?

Just like how "Second Dream" is about us waking up from the womb in the sky (coming out of our first dream by leaving our secret pod place in Lua) and entering transcendence (early stage transference with the chest beam when you press 5 before war within but after second dream) on our ship.

It will be like saying Sentient Queen Natah got Margulis' image and memories because she performed transference (basically same as how zariman 10-0 children dream and control warframes) on Margulis.

Edited February 8, 2018 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Dangerbone]

Space Mom has been at this gig for what, 5 or 6 years now? Perhaps she and Ballas just need their space :^).

 

[Wolfren-13]

On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 8:31 PM, OoKeNnEtHoO said:

But what if "dreams of these divine children" is just a figure of speech description for "transference"?

Just like how "Second Dream" is about us waking up from the womb in the sky (coming out of our first dream by leaving our secret pod place in Lua) and entering transcendence (early stage transference with the chest beam when you press 5 before war within but after second dream) on our ship.

It will be like saying Sentient Queen Natah got Margulis' image and memories because she performed transference (basically same as how zariman 10-0 children dream and control warframes) on Margulis.

Well, I have to point out a few flaws there.

If Lotus performed transference on Margulis, why did Palladino say it was from the Dreams of the Tenno?

Transference has never been shown to impart memories of the "surrogate" to the "dreamer".

In the Detron Crewman Synthesis Imprint, it says this. "They opened the chamber door just in time for me to see it happen; the Archimedian erupting into a flash, jade-like and blinding. I knew her. She was the greatest scholar of genetics who ever lived. Except now she was nothing but mist and gore."

It is commonly believed that the Archimedian was Margulis, which would mean two things.

One, Margulis was dead long before the Sentients, including Natah, came to the origin system. And two, there was not even a corpse for Lotus to perform transference on.

 

Edit: One more thing, I find it highly unlikely than a human body would be capable of being a "surrogate" for transference, Orokin or not.

Edit: I had an idea. If there was some deeper connection between Natah and Margulis, it would have been Margulis using transference on Natah. We know a human can use transference, Sylvania, but it isn't as "safe" as Tenno transference. I don't think that this was the case. But if there actually was transference involving Natah and Margulis, that would be it.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Wolfren-13
Additional Information

[(PSN)Silverback73]

53 minutes ago, Wolfren-13 said:

Well, I have to point out a few flaws there.

If Lotus performed transference on Margulis, why did Palladino say it was from the Dreams of the Tenno?

Transference has never been shown to impart memories of the "surrogate" to the "dreamer".

In the Detron Crewman Synthesis Imprint, it says this. "They opened the chamber door just in time for me to see it happen; the Archimedian erupting into a flash, jade-like and blinding. I knew her. She was the greatest scholar of genetics who ever lived. Except now she was nothing but mist and gore."

It is commonly believed that the Archimedian was Margulis, which would mean two things.

One, Margulis was dead long before the Sentients, including Natah, came to the origin system. And two, there was not even a corpse for Lotus to perform transference on.

 

Edit: One more thing, I find it highly unlikely than a human body would be capable of being a "surrogate" for transference, Orokin or not.

Blade Runner.  Battle Angel Alita.  How far can Sentients take adaptive evolution?

I remember a movie with Gary Sinese where the deadliest weapons were synthetic humans who were convinced they were normal but were timed nuclear terror bombs.

Edited February 10, 2018 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Wolfren-13]

17 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Blade Runner.  Battle Angel Alita.  How far can Sentients take adaptive evolution?

I remember a movie with Gary Sinese where the deadliest weapons were synthetic humans who were convinced they were normal but were timed nuclear terror bombs.

The only thing I understood was "How far can Sentients take adaptive evolution?". What's Battle Angel Alita?

Edit: I'm so sorry, this comment was off topic. I wrote it far too late in the night.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Wolfren-13

[EndermanBeast]

I haven’t read any of the replies here, but one theory I have is that the thing you have to touch, is a sort of transmission. And the ones in Lua are flashblacks from Margulis’ past, referencing that it will happen again, but to us instead. Lotus is ironically meant to be our Ballas.

 

The end of the Tenno.

And the beginning of Umbra.

 

Thats just the main theory that I’m hoping for, since it would leave much more of an impact on all of us if that happened.

 

Another theory is that maybe its the end of one generation and the start of a new, from being young Tenno, to being older, more matured and more grownup Tenno.

Edited February 10, 2018 by EndermanBeast

[renoiqbalsah]

I think the sentients save margulis before her sentence. Or she might be dead but the sentient give her a second life and become Natah. That's why, she cannot kill the tenno

[(PSN)EvilJalen]

Sry for the huge reply.

Am 22.12.2017 um 11:23 schrieb Kiwinille:

My theory is, Margulis was ordered to be executed but Ballas "saved" her by making a some sort of deal with Natah (who suddenly cares about the Tenno >.>) to "imprison" Margulis in order to save her so Ballas could control the Tenno through the Lotus, so once Ballas cut the connectors to her helmet, Margulis is free from Natah and sees Ballas again after thousand years and goes back with him.

- only correct until "executed" the rest I have to refuse
 

Am 22.12.2017 um 15:26 schrieb Rson:

Alight, this is what i think is going down, Ballas made the Tenno as a test to see if his theories on void powers where right, *Hence the deleted records. after the test came back positive he gave himself void powers and instated the old war *sentient war, to cover his tracks, *(He help them cross the void) He Faked Margulis' death in her body and allows the Lotus to over take her body so she can carry out and fail at her / the sentiants plans, because like the quills, Ballas can see into different time lines *(now having void power).  *as indicated by his abilities to lock Lotus away by raising his hand. 

I think this also suggest that the Warframes arn't just bio masses' but perhaps still have a human soul inside as show in the second dream. With out void power i think we can reawaken them just like Ballas did for Margulis.

What do I think will happen next? we're gonna have a void battle with Ballas and our Warframe still start fighting beside us. 

- nice idea, but.. no

and -> Ballas wasn´t the "creator" of the tenno. This was Margulis.

about the soul:

Am 22.12.2017 um 15:59 schrieb DroopingPuppy:

It seems that an Infested would be held inside of the warframes....

Once I have think about the hypothesis, that the being inside of the warframes... are once were the mad adults in Zariman Ten Zero, that was mad, and also turned to Infested(perhaps), however also have the void powers as the operator does. It would answers why each warframes are able to manifest the void power, not pure as the operator themselves does, but able to make it by some specialized way. The adults are also affected by the void powers... Remember that the crews are gone and only the children are remains. In The War Within it suggests that the mad adults are killed by the children, but what if some of them are survives and turned to the subject of experiment? What about the deceased bodies? Alad V does similar thing to make zanuka, so why not for the orokin?

There are also the counterarguments:

-In the quests and short comics it suggests that the adults are just mad, but doesn't manifest any powers. But I think that it may possible with some process.

-It suggests that the being inside of the warframes are Infested, but Infested dislikes creature that has the affinity with void, call them demon. Then how the warframes themselves are also have the void powers? Is it the combination of both things?

 

 

-> yes (!!!), those immense powers and abilities are the outcome for specialized "infestations" ( u have to know what infestation actual IS ) but the infestation causes the death of the "containment"/Warframe only basic functions are possible (somehow like zombies who´re doing the last known action over and over ( like Chroma or Inaros))

-> everyone on the Zariman whose not fallin´ asleep while thrifting through the void have gone mad, but only one seems to .. "be alive". Its the guy who have protected you in this time, maybe you´ve noticed that he´s now living on ur ship, after solving his Quest. His Name is Rell ;)

-> Void is deadly to everyone but the kids. The Infestation (and Sentient) were desigend to be NOT able to survive the contact with void energy. The Zariman was one of the first tests within the void. No one but the Kids can control void-energy, the reason why Ballas and the emperors have feared them.

 

Am 23.12.2017 um 03:07 schrieb MaksymP:

How does Ballus even fit into all of this? Didn't we Tenno murder all the Orokin (at least the higher ups, since the Corpus had to have come from somewhere). Perhaps Stalker is in contact with him (since he hates the tenno for betraying the orokin)? Perhaps the Sacrifice is linked to all of this somehow, and we have to go out of our ways to save space-mom.

-> yes, we have murdered them. (at least a few. Sentient and civil-war would have done the rest)

-> Stalker have accompnied with Hunhow. Cooperation with Ballas, Hunhows Nemesis is nearly impossible.

 

Am 23.12.2017 um 18:04 schrieb UrielColtan:

The Ordin backstory suggest that the top Orokin can't even truly be killed, as they just regenerate. Which is why I suspected that some of them actually survived the Tenno assault, Ballas in particular.

-> Orokin were always just "a few". Most Human have never seen an Orokin in real in their life. But yes, theoretically they aren´t killable, because of "Kuva". They were able to regenerate Bodies and they were able transfer the "mind" from one body into another ( Continuity - tried by the queen in TWW - seems to be a usual way )

-> yes its very likely that many of them are still alive! For example The queens are real Orokin. (ARE, because of the fact that the elder one is still alive in some way!)

 

Am 24.12.2017 um 03:18 schrieb AJSATmacster1:

I could see that happening since Ballas was truly in love with Margulis and didn't want to see her killed. However, from what I've seen and read it's heavily hinted that she was executed much to the woe of Ballas. That said, the conversation at the beginning of the Prologue hints at Ballas could've prevented her execution given his status and rank within the Empire being just below the Seven Emperors (not The Seven who carried out he execution). Natah used the memories of the Tenno to take the form of Margulis and essentially resurrect her in a since. Ballas in the cutscene probably was talking to the locked away memories within Natah since they're indeed trapped within a sentient body. So, it's possible that Ballas will use contunity in order to restore Margulis to an Orokin body. 

Then again it's hard to say since the quest was so short and leaves more questions then answers. Also to be honest Margulis would probably be upset with Ballas given that he lied to her. 

-> Ballas have executed her by himself. Yes he don´t wandet to do that. But also he wanted to do that because of the things she have done. Yes, he have the highest ( judiciary ) Rank just below the Emperors, so theoretically he had the decision. But yes he have regret this decision.

-> Natah haven taken "a form", but yes, somehow ressurect Margulis. But NO this body isn´t exactly sentient, it´s Margulis original body.

=> no, this quest have bound so many open ends together ;)

 

Am 24.12.2017 um 05:16 schrieb Phobonaut:

The Tenno murdered the Seven Emperors, and perhaps all the Orokin and Dax surrounding the Seven Emperors. Ballas being a borderline rogue Orokin wouldn't be attacked by the Tenno, because... one his relationship with Margulis already meant he was pretty close to getting killed for subordinance himself, and two he made the Warframes and he was pretty much the only guiding figure the Tenno had between Margulis' disappearance and the Lotus' appearance.

People think Ballas will be an enemy, but I imagine Ballas will act more neutral - just with his own hidden agenda. If the Prime Access trailers are an indication, Ballas has a great deal of respect, or interest in the Tenno and Warframes.

- this isn´t actual known. Even who the seven exactly were isn´t know atm.

-> yes, without ballas the warframes and the kids wouldn´t exist anymore.

-> Ballas goals are.. interesting. But he is not really an enemy, but like ever, this is very relative. Ballas is the creator of the Primes (other than the name says).

 

Am 26.12.2017 um 00:12 schrieb SingularEntity:

Wasnt Ballas involved in the creation of the sentients? What if he hid Margulis or some part of her inside the sentient code before they were sent away. Upon return this part was singeled out as Natah, and sent back to the orokin, while hunhow continued to run the regular code; or at least some twisted version of it due to reprogramming themself again and again for so long.

-> yes, he have agreed Archis "invention"

-> Natah is/(WAS) a part of Hunhow, but much more isn´t known

 

Am 25.1.2018 um 00:31 schrieb Ferah_Frithu:

Well, the entirety of the Sentient race is a creation of the Orokin, so nothing's impossible in that regard. Even more so, if you consider that Ballas did not kill/exterminate the Lotus, which implies she's actually not of sentient origin. You see, as the Sentients were the worst enemy to the Orokin, before the plague and the Tenno, Ballas wouldn't be foolish enough to free one of the most powerful Sentients and walk away with "it" hand in hand.

Ballas was/is one of the most powerful de facto rulers of the most advanced and most powerful civilization known in the Warframe universe. I truly doubt that he would free his certain demise from its shackles. Like I said, I believe that the pod/device, that the Lotus was strapped to, contained the sentient being known as Natah, and that the body itself is actually Margulis. This is further backed up by the fact that Hunhow himself is also depicted in the same way the Lotus is, wearing that very specific helmet. That's why I think that the helmet/device is the missing link, it's what the Sentients use to at all be able to appear "human-like" - They steal/borrow human bodies, and "infect" it with their sentient mind, using their technology. 

Nowhere in the lore did I read about Sentients ever having humanoid appearances. They were always depicted/described in their classical drone-like form, so why would Natah be the only Sentient that has an actual biological body?

 

-> theoretically I came cure

just in the end it needs a bit clearance. Sentient were the prototype of an KI based on nanites, which manifests in drone-like sculptures. But because of "a" sentient is made up of nanites they theoretically can "infect" bodies.

 

Am 29.1.2018 um 15:42 schrieb KelsierSurvivor:

At least someone agrees with me on the whole "Puppeteering" thing. I used the phrase "Infesting" or "Taking Control Of" or "Reviving and utilizing", etc. But I personally think that this makes the most sense. 

Margulis was still killed at the ceremony thing or whatever you want to call that, (The Orokin sure found it enjoyable when someone died, so it might as well have been a ceremony) but Natah took her... uh... messed up remains (I don't have a clue on what methods the Orokin used to kill her.) and kinda nursed her back to life via special Sentient methods and took over her body so she could use a familiar face to guide the Tenno with. Or maybe the bit about her not actually being killed and somehow someone sent in a look-alike to be killed in Margulis's place. That's another theory that I found. Ballas wanted to save her, but for some unexplained reason he wanted to have Natah take control of her body. This was in response to the dialogue from the Sacrifice trailer, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

-> thats the point!!!

Margulis have created the Kids.

Ballas and the Emperors have feared it, because of that unbelievable and "uncontrollable" power, so they advised Margulis to kill them.

She havent done that, so Ballas decided that she have to die (because of his rule)

In the same moment he have killed her and because of nobody saved her she were really dying.

Ballas was going to kill the kids by himself, but on this way the things changed very fast. The Infestation wasn´t under control anymore so ballas have to hide somewhere.

Hunhow was starting his great Plan: Created a drone that "infiltrate" the Ranks of the tenno. He Found the Body of Margulis ad was trying to take over control of it. But because of the huge might of the Orokin bodies (or maybe the Kuva) this wasnt possible so he have to create a "new souverign Mind" called "Natah" -> Nanites who are inside the Body of Margulis. Now under the Name of Lotus she guides the tenno to betray the Orikin, as Hunhow had command. This attack causes the complete destruction of the Empire. After that there was a small error within Natah, because of Margulis´ mind is in her body furthermore. Natah and Margulis merged together and they became the real Lotus together. Because of that Natah doesn´t know who it (?) is and Margulis doesn´t even know who she is, there is only Lotus and the Task are the Tenno.

Ballas had no choice and finally recognized that the kids and the tenno are the only way how the infestation and Hunhow can be beaten.

 

 

[AJSATmacster1]

On 3/8/2018 at 4:03 AM, (PS4)EvilJalen said:

-> Ballas have executed her by himself. Yes he don´t wandet to do that. But also he wanted to do that because of the things she have done. Yes, he have the highest ( judiciary ) Rank just below the Emperors, so theoretically he had the decision. But yes he have regret this decision.

-> Natah haven taken "a form", but yes, somehow ressurect Margulis. But NO this body isn´t exactly sentient, it´s Margulis original body.

=> no, this quest have bound so many open ends together ;)

Ballas did not execute Margulis himself but was present at her Execution conducted by the Seven and the "Jade Light". He's very regretful in the decisions that she made to get her into that situation and gave her chance to renounce before the Seven which likely would of spared her life at the cost of the Tenno. I actually will disagree with you that he wanted it to happen because he loved her. But, he was also duty bound to let it happen as accustomed to the law of the Empire. That said, he didn't really have a direct decision but could've pulled strings to save her life and maybe lead to imprisonment instead. I don't think she would've got away free but would be alive in jail and possibly be released at a future time with more pull from Ballas. That's what I mean by him sparing her life since I doubt she wouldn't get punished for her actions in someway but still be alive. 

We don't exactly know how Margulis was killed other than a mention of a "Jade Light" which could be a laser used for incineration or something else. It's very possible that it is her body with Lotus being the helmet. Still hard to say till the full quest is released but it will answer a lot of questions. If it is her original body than she obviously wasn't executed in a physical way but could possibly be in the same vain as Ordis. All I know is that whatever Margulis was to Ballas ended by the "Jade Light" and the Seven.

 

[Unus]

Personal opinionwise? I think what we saw was Ballas using his knowledge of Sentient systems to finally trace the "Orokin Slayers'" master back to it's hideout. He "infiltrates", goes in for what shoulda been a kill, and, lo-and-behold, the spittin image of his wife is at/in the helm. 

 

Happy at having found something approximent to his wife (And being bet-shet nuts for having lived alone a thousand years and several lives.) Ballas burrows into Lotus' "Black Matter" (Or is it "Grey Box"?) with his subtle ""leet haxxoring"" skills and dredges up more memories of his wife that stuck inside Lotus when the Tenno were "building her" within the vulnerable Natah entity. Now "stuck" between what she was and what she was "meant to be", Madam Lotus confusedly follows along in the long strides of the strangely familiar looking man who calls her "wife". . .

And here we are now.

[SeaUrchins]

I am fine with that gender fluid gibbon running off with the creepy lotus milf, I was so hyped there will be no more "it's the grineer" captain obvious messages anymore... and then there's this purple simulation... Noooo @_@

[SatouKuroitamashi]

The Lotus makes mention of the flower that the cryopods were designed after... the Lotus flower. I agree with the idea that Ballas used Nataha And made her a vessel for his love’s oro, but instead of taking over they merged, hence her statement about how she is not who Ballas thinks she is.

[l3rokken4ngel]

I haven't read through every page, but I want to ask/point out something that was bugging me:

A few people have suggested that Rell is the ghost figure on your ship. I do not think that's the case. I think Rell's spirit was allowed to pass on, and that is what you witnessed when he said that he was tired and left.

I think the figure you see on your ship that says, "Hey Kiddo", is in fact Ballas... a.k.a. "The Man in the Wall". You'll note that the eyes of your doppleganger are golden, just like Ballas. Now, right after Rell is released, along with the "Man in the Wall" (to which the Red Veil says to let it be our problem now), we suddenly get thrown into this void and Ballas appears to take Space Mom away.

If anyone else has pointed this out prior, I apologize. But I think the doppleganger on the ship after the Harrow quest is Ballas. And now that he is free, he's come to take Space Mom away.