We're Too Powerful.

[arch111]

Well in response to that DE does not want to limit the player in terms of weapons, well this is my point.

if levels are indeed designed so that each cell before the mission,

talks and agrees what "class" we will play, what frames etc.

then this suggests End Game ro me.

But is it done this way? And if so, what is the midgame?

Transportation to endgame?

I do not suggest FORBIDDING weapons. But give more variety to the frames.

Besides, mastery limits wrapons already.

Hek is still a rank 4.

If its all about getting all frames, then should it not be easier to darm them so all

Can reach the endgame?

Check cells endgame thread allso.

[Tempera]

Well in response to that DE does not want to limit the player in terms of weapons, well this is my point.

if levels are indeed designed so that each cell before the mission,

talks and agrees what "class" we will play, what frames etc.

then this suggests End Game ro me.

But is it done this way?

No, it is not. There are no "classes", and as such there is nothing to agree on.

 

The closest you'll find is people asking for a Frost/Vauban when doing Defence missions, because of the utility of Bastille and Snowglobe.

 

Apart from that, each player brings along whatever he or she wants to. A player may bring along a Nova, an Ember, a Volt, a Saryn, a Mag, whatever. They can bring whatever loadout they wish, and barring completely stupid mistakes like using a Mk. 1 Braton in the endgame, they are still viable enough to play.

 

Each class has a given "theme", which is what differentiates them from each other. Saryn is all about dealing poison damage, for instance, while Ember is all about AoE fire damage and Excalibur is all about rushing around the room and dealing damage. But generally, outside of, say, later-rank T3 defence missions (where this is a real problem), people can bring along whatever they want and still clear the content if they're good enough.

 

And if so, what is the midgame?

Transportation to endgame?

The midgame is all about the progression of the player towards later levels. You introduce skills, you introduce new content, new modes of play. They continually get more powerful and more skilled, and gradually work themselves towards the endgame content.

 

The endgame content, then, is all about hitting that point of progression, and then wanting to test your skills against appropriate challenges.

 

So you go from being introduced to the game (earlygame), to being continually introduced to new content and challenging modes of play in order to facilitate player growth and progress (midgame), to hitting a block in progression and testing the skills you developed playing the game against challenges that one could not overcome without having progressed through all that previous content (endgame).

 

Besides, mastery limits wrapons already.

Hek is still a rank 4.

I am not sure what your point here is.

 

Hek is limited in that the player can only get it at a certain time, the same way that Vauban is limited in that you can only get pieces of it from Alerts, and Excalibur is limited in that you can only get pieces of it from Ambulas. But once you have it, you can use it any time you wish; there is no arbitrary restrictions stating that Hek's recoil is too powerful for Ember and Volt to handle, only Rhino and Frost can use it.

 

If its all about getting all frames, then should it not be easier to darm them so all

Can reach the endgame?

Currently, Warframe is in a bit of a sad state in that there's roughly only two things to do; farm for new weapons and Warframes, and farm for mods so your new weapons and Warframes can cause bigger numbers to float over enemy's heads. It's stuck in a midgame state; it's all about developing skills and progressively increasing your power, but there's nothing to test your skills and power against outside of T3 Defence missions.

 

As such, currently, farming for Warframes is essentially one of the only forms of content that will keep players coming back for more. Making it easier for players to farm them means that players will eventually play less.

 

It's a huge problem, and one that's quite well-known among the playerbase.

 

Check cells endgame thread allso.

[Unibot]

Except the amount I'm talking about isn't even as extreme as you're taking it. I'd like a level or two shaved off the more powerful mods and some of the power taken away from skills so they don't one shot a room or perma CC a room and make the game trivial. I'm not talking to the point of to where the enemies are super hard. I'm not so much trying to increase the difficulty of the game as I am trying to bring down the potential of the players so it doesn't get to a point where you can't even play a mission because some guy runs faster than you and clears a room before you get to it.

I do not want you to bring down my potential, got it ?

Who the hell you are to decide what should be for others ?

Go "want something" in different place far away from this community. One suggest, one accepts, one offers, yet you demand. Go away.

Also play solo or in private. If you can't compete or want to coop, it doesn't mean other do. You can't force other to do something against their will, its slavery.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Unibot

[WhiteCopain]

I do not want you to bring down my potential, got it ?

Who the hell you are to decide what should be for others ?

Go "want something" in different place far away from this community. One suggest, one accepts, one offers, yet you demand. Go away.

Also play solo or in private. If you can't compete or want to coop, it doesn't mean other do. You can't force other to do something against their will, its slavery.

What? So you're saying the entire forums should only ever talk about buffing the players and that every frame in the game should only be buffed because we're all too weak?

 

This is a place for discussion on what people think the state of the game is and we're here to give feedback. Your argument is like saying everyone should have quit because they nerfed Iron skin from being 100% invulnerability for a duration rather than a damage cap.

 

I'm saying that I feel the game would be best if Tenno weren't so powerful that there is no potential chance for them to ever make an enemy that could ever fight them because no matter what they'll instantly be one shot or CC'd to death while the Tenno have infinite Shields, HP, and energy.

[WhiteCopain]

This Topic seems to go out of hand a bit..

Unfortunately we are talking about limit breaking situations that decrees the difficult of a game that is in production and didn't come out of beta.

I know what you are going for. Tho this is not the time yet for such a discussion. So far i heard very specific lists here for very specific situations. You seem to like team play. That's fine. You seem to have warframes for every situation. That natural is fine as well. Yet not everyone has the same difficult requirements as you or Equipment to deal with it. Not everyone has everything. Some just wish to play this game on a lower difficulty curve. Some people, like myself for example, don't like playing with a team. As well i still don't have very powerful mods. The game personal is difficult enough for me. You keep speaking of optimal way of playing. The " Dominant strategy " as it is called. Specific warframes on specific missions with a specific setup. Not everyone wishes optimal play. The game is easy to you because you play through the least resistant heavy strategy. That's fine yet not everyone can do the same.

Lets not forget this is a PVE game. Something that you can relax to and not really be overly challenged. So far I recommend waiting before everyone goes on what is and what is not difficult. Since again. You wish a higher difficulty curve. Not everyone does. Appealing to one group of high skill players will alienate those that don't want to have that.

And playing with sub par gear wouldn't be affected by this change. I'm not talking about you suddenly getting a nerf so the game's impossible for a solo, I'm talking about that guy who has 4-5 Forma'd gear who has every single mod maxed and one shots entire rooms while having infinite HP/Shields.

[Unibot]

And playing with sub par gear wouldn't be affected by this change. I'm not talking about you suddenly getting a nerf so the game's impossible for a solo, I'm talking about that guy who has 4-5 Forma'd gear who has every single mod maxed and one shots entire rooms while having infinite HP/Shields.

Would people forma if it did not give more power ?

Would they upgrade mods if it did not improve their warframe combat potential ?

What you are saying is - ok you guy took too much, we remove it from you, and you get nothing in return. What do you expect ? A "thank you" ? A "great idea" ?

All you get is hate and flame from people, cause you do not provide a valid solution, you just ask to cripple everyone to your ground and its a bad thing to those who do not want to be on par with you.

Its an old talk about rushers and turtles, min/maxers and those who are not. Look around, there are different people living with you in this world, all have thier own opinion and it doesn't have to be same as yours.

You try to force as I see something bad for me and you expect me to agree with your point?

The solution is simple and was mentioned many time - play alone or with the likes of you. Random people will play random.

Also talking much about too much power, have you done something harder than 40+ defense past update ? This is where you need power.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Unibot

[SilentCynic]

One thing to also consider is that not all the frames can clean rooms in an instant or tank a few dozen NPCs on Pluto. I don't pretend to be the best Warframe player ever, nor even a particularly good one, but solo gets hard as F*** if you're not using a tanky frame with a get-out-of-jail-free card. I suppose I can run in a group, but I figured the game's supposed to stay balanced in a manner to make solo play viable.

 

I'm all for difficulty, but I feel that scaling is crucial. Warframe caters for a wide audience, so ideally you don't want to 'alienate' your players. Nightmare is an interesting idea, but extrapolate on that, perhaps. Maybe a 'second tier' solar system, with tougher enemies from the get-go, better drop rates, etc?

[Unibot]

One thing to also consider is that not all the frames can clean rooms in an instant or tank a few dozen NPCs on Pluto. I don't pretend to be the best Warframe player ever, nor even a particularly good one, but solo gets hard as F*** if you're not using a tanky frame with a get-out-of-jail-free card. I suppose I can run in a group, but I figured the game's supposed to stay balanced in a manner to make solo play viable.

 

I'm all for difficulty, but I feel that scaling is crucial. Warframe caters for a wide audience, so ideally you don't want to 'alienate' your players. Nightmare is an interesting idea, but extrapolate on that, perhaps. Maybe a 'second tier' solar system, with tougher enemies from the get-go, better drop rates, etc?

That is an option.

 Cause you get something in return for harder difficulty, not just cripple for nothing.

[WhiteCopain]

Would people forma if it did not give more power ?

Would they upgrade mods if it did not improve their warframe combat potential ?

What you are saying is - ok you guy took too much, we remove it from you, and you get nothing in return. What do you expect ? A "thank you" ? A "great idea" ?

All you get is hate and flame from people, cause you do not provide a valid solution, you just ask to cripple everyone to your ground and its a bad thing to those who do not want to be on par with you.

Its an old talk about rushers and turtles, min/maxers and those who are not. Look around, there are different people living with you in this world, all have thier own opinion and it doesn't have to be same as yours.

You try to force as I see something bad for me and you expect me to agree with your point?

The solution is simple and was mentioned many time - play alone or with the likes of you. Random people will play random.

Also talking much about too much power, have you done something harder than 40+ defense past update ? This is where you need power.

I've gotten plenty of good feedback. Notice how they're people who are using more cohesive thoughts and thinking about their replies. Not "OH MY GOD HE DOESN'T WANT TO BUFF US, THIS IS STUPID"

[Meatuchu]

To be honest, this game needs a new solar system with new enemies with much much higher level. Label it as content for the extreme so that the low levels and the casuals don't go there expecting to succeed. Give the factions minibosses that spawn occasionally, perhaps use jackal (With his leg gimmick removed maybe), phorid and Kela de thaym as enemies that just spawn with generic names.

[Unibot]

I've gotten plenty of good feedback. Notice how they're people who are using more cohesive thoughts and thinking about their replies. Not "OH MY GOD HE DOESN'T WANT TO BUFF US, THIS IS STUPID"

Actually "OH MY GOD HE WANTS TO NERF US, THIS IS STUPID"

And thats what it looks like.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Unibot

[neKroMancer]

To be honest, this game needs a new solar system with new enemies with much much higher level. Label it as content for the extreme so that the low levels and the casuals don't go there expecting to succeed. Give the factions minibosses that spawn occasionally, perhaps use jackal (With his leg gimmick removed maybe), phorid and Kela de thaym as enemies that just spawn with generic names.

That's just powercreep, not even remotely acceptable design for dealing with difficulty and depth.

[RealityMachina]

That's just powercreep,

Ok, I think we need to have a talk concerning this term, because now I'm starting to think I have a vastly different definition than other people on here.

[Bakercompany86]

Ok, I think we need to have a talk concerning this term, because now I'm starting to think I have a vastly different definition than other people on here.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep

[RealityMachina]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep

Ooooooh.

 

Ok, so now I know if someone says they want to reduce power creep in the game, they're both referring to whatever power creep they perceive on the tenno side and the current absurdity going on with the enemies:

Ok, I can deal with that. Only reason I don't mind the existence of maximum rank modded out uber heks is the current absurd scaling that pretty much forces me to use it if I want to have something resembling fun if I play those high level content, so if they both go I ain't going to cry at the loss.

[Bakercompany86]

Ooooooh.

 

Ok, so now I know if someone says they want to reduce power creep in the game, they're both referring to whatever power creep they perceive on the tenno side and the current absurdity going on with the enemies:

*snip*

 

You got it.  Unless DE wants to continue jacking up stats to release new content, a linear progression must be introduced.

 

They can either completely revamp the game from ground up in this respect, *OR* they can make all new content based on what our current *max* is.  Basically, this solar system will be here for the purpose of attaining a max level character with max gear, and the rest of the content AKA Endgame, will be for those maxed characters.

 

More game mechanics will need to be introduced, a lot of new units as well.  And scaling AI difficulty.  It's very possible.

[Paprika]

There's been a rise in "powercreep" rants in the forums. The only argument that people come up with is "Just take off your mods", but I'd respond with, "If I can breeze through a level this easily (even if I have to use all my mods), the game is over for me." Even if I do listen and take out all my mods, there's only so much longer I can play before getting bored of pseudo-challenge.

 

I think the Devs should make this a priority.

 

If I've offended anyone, I'm sorry. This is my opinion, and you're free to disagree by replying or PMing.

[RealityMachina]

You got it.  Unless DE wants to continue jacking up stats to release new content, a linear progression must be introduced.

 

They can either completely revamp the game from ground up in this respect, *OR* they can make all new content based on what our current *max* is.  Basically, this solar system will be here for the purpose of attaining a max level character with max gear, and the rest of the content AKA Endgame, will be for those maxed characters.

 

More game mechanics will need to be introduced, a lot of new units as well.  And scaling AI difficulty.  It's very possible.

Better scaling AI + dodging and blocking being actually useful seems like a good first step towards reworking the game's challenge, since you could then strip away the absurd scaling battle between high end tenno and high end enemies and replace it with making it so you have to learn how to use mechanics of the game effectively, along with knowing how to engage the smarter foes.

 

I mean, you can never get rid of the fact that experience will make the game easier, but at least the above will make high level content fun to play without having to resort to allow the player to take in an uber level gun to deal with the fake difficulty to the point that he can get something resembling enjoyment of the game.

Edited August 4, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Phaenur]

First, I agree with Tempera (and the OP's more general post to a lesser extent).  There's definitely some issues with easy difficulty on high-level planets when faced with Ultimates and heavily-modded late game weapons, but as the charts that keep getting circulated demonstrate you can't just "take off your mods" and expect to do a damned thing.  Mid-level nightmare missions are an interesting change in my opinion, but there are still just so many more options.  Most of those are tied to AI, of course, but even without going into that there are number tweaks and slight adjustments that could get a similar short-term effect without the investment of a heavy AI overhaul.

 

The common point in all the complaints in this thread is that Ultimate abilities and a few others (Bastille and Snow Globe) trivialize content while enemy damage output and defense make anything else, except maybe armor-ignore weapons modded to Hek and gone, worthless.  The obvious quick-fix here is to do something to make those abilities less spammable, like either an energy cost increase or some sort of cooldown, along with a duration reduction on the area denial skills.  I believe someone mentioned Elsword while discussing parallel situations, and that game has an interesting situation - you regenerate your mana bar (recharge the Ultimate in this scenario) by doing damage.  Waiting and using potions are woefully inefficient, at least if you want to mass-produce your room clearers.  Having some sort of resistance to control for both enemies and Tenno would be a very nice touch too, of course.

On the flip side, the punishing damage output of mid- and late-game enemies could be mitigated by making more weapons quick-hit rather than just hitscan, like Tempera said.  Grineer get by on stupid levels of suppressive fire, but if the player gets caught in the open a single level 30+ Lancer could probably melt them in the time it takes to stand up.  Ditto for MOAs and Chargers, although Infested are usually fairly easy to either kite or tank if your 'frame is too slow.  Seriously, right now it's easy to forget you're (in?) a shielded suit of semiorganic power armor when a single assault rifle takes even heavyweights from full to dead in three seconds without absolutely capped defense mods (those bump it up to four seconds).  This would make it seem less like players needed to use their room-clearing ultimates and put more emphasis onto mobility and utility skills like the common 1 and 2 slots.

 

As a final note, two of my friends and I ran a nightmare mode mission on Earth yesterday to take advantage of the doubled experience (which meant most of our equipment was underlevelled and only some of it was potatoed).  Our friendly neighborhood Rhino had something like twelve revives under his belt at the end of it, and the other two of us had two apiece (in fact, even the max-level Rhino went down at one point).  This was simultaneously terrifying and exhilarating not because of the nightmare effect (Vampire) but because of the prevalence of high-tier enemies with an interesting variety of attacks.  We ran into easily three Commanders per room, who would inevitably switch-teleport our lowest-leveled player - a Loki, in case it wasn't bad enough - into muzzle contact with a Heavy Gunner, who would knock him down and shred him.  It was an incredibly random, chaotic, and high-energy running battle that wound on through an insanely long map of probably 50+ Galleon tiles, and it happened not because the enemies were high-level or because of the random effect in the map but because against Heavy Grineer our ultimates weren't very effective and because those same heavies were coming in the right concentrations to make good maneuvers at least every once in a while.

There's a misconception I've seen that Endless Defense absolutely must be the end-game and that all difficulty should be balanced around that.  I disagree strongly for one major reason (plus a bunch of minor ones): what was it that enthralled you about the early levels?  Part of it was the genuine challenge the low-level equipment and mods provided, of course, but another part of it was the variety and unpredictability of each of the different mission types.  Endless Defense is the only game type that doesn't offer any of that, but because of the rewards it's also the only type people play.  Adding rewards to other mission types, especially on top of the promised overhauls to the less-played varieties, should go a long way towards counteracting this.

[Paprika]

Better scaling AI + dodging and blocking being actually useful seems like a good first step towards reworking the game's challenge, since you could then strip away the absurd scaling battle between high end tenno and high end enemies and replace it with making it so you have to learn how to use mechanics of the game effectively, along with knowing how to engage the smarter foes.

 

I mean, you can never get rid of the fact that experience will make the game easier, but at least the above will make high level content fun to play without having to resort to allow the player to take in an uber level gun to deal with the fake difficulty to the point that he can get something resembling enjoyment of the game.

yeah, I'd like to see a shift of focus towards skill and an understanding of game mechanics as opposed to mod-reliant play. I'd like a system where Health and Shields become optional, where stealth becomes rewarding. I don't mean rewarding in that I'll get good prizes. I mean rewarding in that It'll open up opportunities and change the nature of the mission.

[Paprika]

-snipity-snip-

I agree. Early levels are amazingly fun. I've also seem the damage meter ulti idea somewhere as well, and I think it's fantasic. It's like the classic "rage-mode" meter from Classics.

 

I honestly want tactical moves like Loki's Switch Teleport and Radial Disarm as well as Ash's Teleport become Stamina-based. They don't solve problems. They change the nature of the problem so as to make the problem more manageable. I want to be able to use them more often without having to wait on arbitrary Blue Orb drops.

[Bakercompany86]

Telling someone to just strip themselves of their mods to change the gameplay is stupid...and lazy on both parties.

 

 

As mentioned above, AI reworking is a much better answer.  Sooooo many games feature this.  Grunts start off stupid in early missions, avoiding cover, charging at you directly, etc.  Throughout the progress tree they evolve.  Not only do you start to see smarter grunts, taking advantage of cover, throwing grenades to flush you out, etc.....but you'd also start to see new enemy types.  Not only the ones we have in the game currently, but new types with various abilities and weaknesses.

 

Gears of War really nailed the endless defense stuff, mostly because they started it or in the very least made it popular.

 

You start off seeing stupid Wretches, with a few drones.  Then it gets worse...and worse..and worse...until you're seeing Theron Guards armed with Torque Bows coupled with Boomers and Grinders etc etc....and eventually a boss of some sort.

 

I still think this formula would be flawless in this game.  You have so much more mobility in Warframe than you do gears, and you still have cover.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a sticky cover mechanic, I still think this game could use it.  But that's a moot point as I know it's not on DE's radar at all and a large chunk of players don't want anything to do with it.  So no use debating it ;)

[RealityMachina]

.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a sticky cover mechanic, I still think this game could use it.  But that's a moot point as I know it's not on DE's radar at all and a large chunk of players don't want anything to do with it.  So no use debating it ;)

I dislike the sticky cover idea, if only because I would prefer something like MGR:R's Ninja Run mechanic instead since I feel ninja run would be more helpful in making sure players who want to focus on melee don't get left out.

[Paprika]

I don't mind sticky cover, but the Devs vetoed the idea. I think they said it was because they didn't want it to break the flow.

[LazyKnight]

I dislike the sticky cover idea, if only because I would prefer something like MGR:R's Ninja Run mechanic instead since I feel ninja run would be more helpful in making sure players who want to focus on melee don't get left out.

The way they setup up every void map makes them of some of the worst maps in game because of the layout and number of NPC. Defense mission against faction other than infested leads to death by gunshot if a frost or massive CC isn't used. Against corrupted, corpus and grineer cover is mandatory and it kills the fluid nature of the game.

 

The game is far more fun at lower level because your shields are strong enough for you to do ninja style things with melee or take unrealistic risk, past level 50 it just not a good idea to get close to things and only melee if they are singular.

 

I wouldn't mind mass effect style cover anymore due to having to use LoS to keep from dying or using a frost. I would rather just have sticky cover if everything is going to force me to take cover anyway.

Edited August 5, 2013 by LazyKnight