How to make Zephyr great again (and very useful)

[Stormandreas]

So I brought my Zephyr back out after a long time, after finding out Jet Stream works with the Corinths alt fire, and all the while, I've been thinking on how to improve Zephyr, as I only really make use of One of her abilities, Turbulence, as it's the only real useful one now.

So, my thoughts

Tailwind and Divebomb - Combine these two into one ability. Make it so Tailwind can be used in ANY direction, including down, however if you hit a surface, you then do the blast that Divebomb would have done. EASY SOLUTION

Tornados - Now these need a fair change. My main idea, is change their damage type to either Void, Slash, or Finisher. Void because the procs would add Bullet Attractors, which would make them less haphazard for teammates to shoot at, Slash because... well slicing wind, or Finisher as there's the Ragdolling and it's the only damage type that isn't completely gimped based on the faction you're fighting. Right now the Tornados change, and unless you do your research, you have no idea that the damage type changes or in what order!

The 2nd thing that the Tornados need, is SCALING DAMAGE!
Yes, I know, that could be broken to all hell, however, hear me out. If each Tornado could absorb say... 10% of all damage that's inflicted upon it, it would make them a viable damage dealing Ultimate, as you'd expect them to be!


So for the 2nd ability... what to do!
Well, what about a Hover ability! Yes, a Hover! Zephyr creates a small Tornado underneath her that envelops her lower half and causes her to hover either for a duration, or drains energy over time until it's canceled.
This would not only make Zephyr a very strong Airborne Warframe (like she's supposed to be!). It would also make her a viable sniper, bomber, AND make use of the Aviation mod!
EDIT: If you use Tailwind when hovering, you dash in the direction, then after the dash, you keep hovering, unless you hit a surface, which cancels the hover and causes Divebomb to activate.


These are just small simple changes, that don't completely change the way Zephyr plays, but increase her QoL, and overall makes her more powerful!

Edited January 7, 2018 by Stormandreas
Little clarification on Hover

[Kyryo]

[BiancaRoughfin]

38 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Tailwind and Divebomb - Combine these two into one ability. Make it so Tailwind can be used in ANY direction, including down, however if you hit a surface, you then do the blast that Divebomb would have done. EASY SOLUTION

This is something i look into for a wile now. Aiming down and casting her (1) skill would trigger DiveBomb instead of Tailwind.

40 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Tornados - Now these need a fair change. My main idea, is change their damage type to either Void, Slash, or Finisher. Void because the procs would add Bullet Attractors

So far only attacks using Void element are made by Operator's Beams and AMPs, i see this being implemented into normal weapons no time soon. Also, i would prefer if the element was kept as it is, based on the attacks the player does to the tornado but to buff damage up have it absorb the attacks and add as a DoT to the tornado.

42 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

So for the 2nd ability... what to do!
Well, what about a Hover ability! Yes, a Hover! Zephyr creates a small Tornado underneath her that envelops her lower half and causes her to hover either for a duration, or drains energy over time until it's canceled.
This would not only make Zephyr a very strong Airborne Warframe (like she's supposed to be!). It would also make her a viable sniper, bomber, AND make use of the Aviation mod!

Instead of a hovering skill, why not a toggle-able flight? Something that would work like Titania's Razorwings without the Exalted weapon and butterflies but with more controllability and synergise with Tailwind. Either that or a Crowd Control skill that creates a wind tunnel to push enemies back.

[Stormandreas]

9 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

This is something i look into for a wile now. Aiming down and casting her (1) skill would trigger DiveBomb instead of Tailwind.

So far only attacks using Void element are made by Operator's Beams and AMPs, i see this being implemented into normal weapons no time soon. Also, i would prefer if the element was kept as it is, based on the attacks the player does to the tornado but to buff damage up have it absorb the attacks and add as a DoT to the tornado.

Instead of a hovering skill, why not a toggle-able flight? Something that would work like Titania's Razorwings without the Exalted weapon and butterflies but with more controllability and synergise with Tailwind. Either that or a Crowd Control skill that creates a wind tunnel to push enemies back.

Yea, I can see the void damage not being changed, and that's fair, so the next best options are Slash and Finisher damage, which is also fair (Magnetic makes NO sense)

Toggleable flight WOULD be coold, but DE said they wouldn't do that at all with a full sized Warframe, hence, Titania. She goes Tiny and it makes it super viable.
With the hover, I was thinking it could still Synergise with Tailwind, as if you use Tailwind when hovering, you dash to wherever you pointed (if you hit a surface the hover is canceled)

[Birdframe_Prime]

Rework thread 610, for those keeping count with me... Stop encouraging the combined 1+2 ability and flying, Bianca, there's literally a hundred better ideas out there, and the combination doesn't buff either ability, just mashes the function together so you can clear a way for a new ability without trying to fix what's wrong with Tailwind or Dive Bomb... And flying will just be a nerf to the frame, even its movement...

Heh, what a negative way to start a comment... sorry guys ^^

Well Hi there, new Zephyr reworker, thanks for joining the discussion on my favourite frame!

And all I'm going to do here is pop a couple of opinions, and a couple of considerations. Because... well I'm told I'm always coming down too hard on new reworkers.

Okay, the thing to consider is that DE aren't doing new abilities for Warframe reworks anymore. They stated this back in the summer 2017, and to emphasise it (giving a bit of weight to the words) Hydroid, Oberon and Mirage have not had new abilities, despite the community largely calling for these three to have new ones. Zephyr is very likely not getting a new ability, so we'll have to see how they'll actually do this.

The opinions I hold are very simple; I've seen three years worth of rework threads, talked and debated with the writers of most of them, and people have been incredibly imaginative and have found amazing ways to improve Zephyr. And all of that has given me the opinion that even if DE don't replace an ability on Zephyr, or give her a new ability, the frame can definitely be improved to the point where people will actually welcome her in a squad and not actively leave the moment Tornado is cast...

So things that other people would consider great ideas, I generally don't, because I've seen much, much better ones. The Tailwind and Dive Bomb combo is one of them, I will guarantee you that combining these two abilities is a band-aid and doesn't fix either of them. Tailwind can be so much better for movement with a few tiny tweaks, and Dive Bomb can be turned into an amazing engage move with CC and the possibility for high damage (not guaranteed massive damage, just letting the 'bomb' part of Dive Bomb be useful). They can be added to, rather than smashed together, to create real abilities and not 'one goes up, the other goes down' as they are now.

Flying and Hovering is something I have a real hate for. When Titania came out and showed us what needed to be done for a frame to fly, I realised just how crap that function would be on Zephyr. There is nothing that a hover or toggle flight mode could do to actually improve Zephyr, nothing that a hovering Zephyr could do that a non-hovering Zephyr can already do, and if you didn't include it the possibilities for improving Zephyr are better than if you did include it.

Exalted weapons are all well and good, but Zephyr isn't a damage frame. Not really. Tornado can be so much better than it is, and I could write you a thesis on how, and the frame simply wouldn't need this kind of function. Tornado doesn't even need scaling damage, it's a CC ability, CC abilities don't do high damage. I can give you the maths on it, if you'd like, but if Tornado just held the enemies for a guaranteed 10 seconds each, suspending them in the funnel instead of throwing them about, and without the damage dropping off the further away from Zephyr the funnel moves, do you know how much damage Tornado can do right now? More than any of the other CC abilities. You'd have damage out-stripping Frost, Oberon, Rhino, Hydroid (and Hydroid deals Finisher damage with Tentacle Swarm...), if it wasn't so heavily nerfed by the random time it holds enemies, by the damage scaling down over distance, by the really slow movement and random seeking function... Tornado would be one of the hardest hitting Crowd Control abilities in game.

Just because it's bad at the moment, doesn't mean that fixing it wouldn't create an incredibly useful ability.

But credit where it's due, you're the first person I've seen to include an Exalted Launcher, that's a new one for me. I say that with the full backing of having read 609 other rework threads. People like the idea of Exalted Fans, or other melee weapons, but they've genuinely never suggested an Exalted Launcher in the ones I've been through.

Top marks for a different line of thinking there.

Unfortunately you had to go and say this:

12 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

This would not only make Zephyr a very strong Airborne Warframe (like she's supposed to be!). It would also make her a viable sniper, bomber, AND make use of the Aviation mod!

I'll tell you what, if Zephyr was supposed to be Airborne the entire time, why doesn't Dive Bomb put her back up as high as she was when she cast it?

The answer is that the entire game is designed around being on the ground. Everything happens there, every interaction, every melee animation, every door, button, other player getting knocked down and needing reviving, every life support pod, every bit of ammo...

Zephyr was created right here in the forums, the design was accepted by DE and made into a Warframe. The original concept contained an ability exactly like the one you're describing, and the creator said that this ability was 'absolutely essential' and 'the key function' the entire rest of the concept relies on.

DE didn't put it in because they know that their game doesn't work like that.

This is why Zephyr doesn't hover or fly already; because the game doesn't function in a way that would make this a good ability. It only barely works for a frame like Titania, and that's because she shrinks down and gains Exalted style weapons that allow her to have the right proportional air-space as a normal size warframe would require. The Plains are big and open, yes, but the entire rest of the game has small narrow corridors, low doors, invisible ceilings that reset you to the ground, and, most importantly, all the things you actually do (aside from killing enemies) are on the ground.

People already complain that you have to stop being in flying mode with Titania, I genuinely don't want people complaining about that for Zephyr.

I will pitch this idea for you though; what to do to Tailwind and Zephyr's Passive that would make being in the air far easier, quicker, more intuitive, and mean that you could still do everything else at the high mobility that Zephyr is supposed to have.

This is from my own thread, and was based on a few hundred hours of research on Tailwind before I posted it:

Spoiler

1. Unlock the fixed-pose animation.

This will mean that Tailwind is a movement ability you cast as a one-handed action, like Bullet Jump, so that you can reload, cast another ability, use Zephyr's in-air steering to adjust your aim once you're in the air, and even just re-aim Tailwind and cast again.

Also, like the other movement abilities in the game, you will be able to use Parkour. Hit a wall and instead of bashing your head against it, you can simply wall run, wall cling, or just bounce off it with a single jump to head in another direction.

Complete movement freedom with Tailwind, combined with the hang-time of her Low Gravity passive and point 3, will make staying in the air easy and controllable even in confined spaces with lower ceilings.

2. A launch and landing function improvement.

People complain all the time about not being able to get down from the air again. Fix this by simply making Tailwind cancel out when you would usually impact the floor and have to wait for Tailwind to end. You can stop, or conserve momentum by sprinting. Literally just stop Tailwind at 1m above the floor and people will have a faster movement skill than any of the others in game because all of those have a recovery time. Tailwind wouldn't and so would be automatically able to counter things like heavy landings or awkward precision platforming.

The launch part simply needs a little adjustment so it works off the angle you're aiming at, so if you're on the ground, looking forwards and press 1, instead of just going straight up, you go up and forwards. But, like a Bullet Jump, if you're aiming at the ground and forwards, you'll still go upwards and forwards. The angle gets steeper the closer to vertical your aim is, so if you're looking straight up, the launch goes straight up.

3. Reduce the cost for in-air casting.

Much like some of the other dash-style abilities, recasting should reduce the cost, so once you're in the air, the ability costs half until you touch the ground again. With the new controllable movement and the new launch mechanics, Tailwind can combine with her Passive to be one of the most nimble and precise movement functions in the game. Beyond simple hovering, Tailwind will now put Zephyr exactly where she wants to be at any given time.

4. Change the proc from damage to CC.

This is a really simple one, Zephyr gets stuck in small spaces when there's enemies blocking the way, they're like a wall to her. She should be able to use Tailwind as an Escape at any time she needs it, including if that's going straight through an enemy. Switch out the damage for a Ragdoll in the direction she's moving? Suddenly you can pass through a crowd of enemies knocking them all down, then turn around and hit them with weapons while they're standing back up again.

Turn Tailwind into an ability you can use with equal efficiency as movement and as a way to affect the enemy at all levels of play. You would have the best movement skill in game and a decent CC for emergencies, no question that this Tailwind would be better than just adding in Dive Bomb and doing nothing else.

You see where the lines of thought went with this, right?

With DE having said 'no new abilities' we have to make what abilities we currently have into ones that feel new, that work to the absolute edge of what they could be instead.

Apologies if this got rant-y, I'm old, I get like that ^^

[Foberon]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

With DE having said 'no new abilities' we have to make what abilities we currently have into ones that feel new, that work to the absolute edge of what they could be instead.

Apologies if this got rant-y, I'm old, I get like that ^^

My only complain here is that we should not limit our imagination, we are not here to develop we are here to give ideas. They might consider changing the "no new abilities" if they like an idea and they might find a way to balance that if something sounds overpower or underpower if they are willing to. I love your passion about Zephyr but in my opinion we shouldnt just limit our ideas only to her current kit, we should be free to toss diferent ideas to change powers.

[Birdframe_Prime]

12 minutes ago, Foberon said:

My only complain here is that we should not limit our imagination, we are not here to develop we are here to give ideas. They might consider changing the "no new abilities" if they like an idea and they might find a way to balance that if something sounds overpower or underpower if they are willing to. I love your passion about Zephyr but in my opinion we shouldnt just limit our ideas only to her current kit, we should be free to toss diferent ideas to change powers.

Oh if it's that you're looking for, I can give you a dozen threads about it, a couple of my own even. I've done the concepting and debate for that too. As I said, I've been at this a rather long time...

OP managed to surprise me with a different type of exalted, but it was still an idea that many have had before, and there are more imaginative examples of Zephyr abilities even in the original Zephyr concept thread that got accepted than just an Exalted style weapon.

Everything wind based, everything bird themed, everything CC, damage, buff/debuff themed too... we've done them all. You would be very, very imaginative to find one under the possible themes that we haven't gone over in more than six hundred threads and debates.

To be frank with you, the problem is just quite how long it's been. The actual problem now isn't what to do with Zephyr, it's what the hell is taking DE so long to do something with her. Every idea under the sun and the best imaginations in the world can't do anything when we aren't the ones actually making the changes.

I've concepted, created, and refined dozens of ideas, my own and other peoples, over the years. And it's made no difference. DE just haven't said a single damn word about her. They spent three years getting Turbulence to actually function, and there's still things it doesn't work with, but nothing else. They said there was a Deluxe Skin in the works, but instead of scheduling it like normal design work (either by giving it to one person and saying 'here's your job son, here's your deadline, work on it' or by saying 'here Design Team, here's your project, this guy is the real Zephyr buff among you so he's calling the shots on the project for this round') they give it to a single guy to do 'as a passion project in his spare time'... which is not how you actually accomplish work in design environments... the proof being that it hasn't appeared for the better part of two years.

I try very hard not to get too passionate about games, because I always end up disappointed when I think too much and they don't deliver...

The worst possible thing we can get from a Zephyr rework is something that makes her less than what she is now. And that can be done with the best of intentions, too, the way that DE wanted to gear Ember more towards an offensive warframe, and so changed Overheat for Accelerant, but then gave all of her abilities fixed damage numbers that can't scale beyond a certain point. Then, of course, they brought in Mesa, who's literally what Ember used to be...

Like the Status changes coming in this month; making Impact scale into a Blast proc negates the choice we have of modding for Blast, and also will cause a lot of high-damage weapons to become more difficult to use, but on top of that won't bring Impact into closer competition with Slash. Same with Puncture, damage reduction is fantastic, but the game builds to the point that even 30% of the enemy's damage can strip you down quite easily. If they wanted to actually buff Impact and Puncture up to the same usage as Slash, then they would have used a system like Impact will scale up from a light stagger to opening enemies for Finisher damage after repeated procs, while Puncture would actually... you know... Puncture things and provide weak points to attack for higher damage like mini-Sonar points. The additional damage for these damage types would then align them with the way that stacking Slash procs provides extra damage. Until they do something like that, Impact and Puncture will still be the inferior damage types to Slash (even after the stealth nerf of having Slash only scale off the actual Slash damage instead of the total damage that inflicted it).

Sometimes, when DE rework functions, they do so in a way that does definitely align to the way they think the game should be, but the results for gameplay mean that the usage turns into something completely different.

An ideal example of this would be to give Zephyr, a highly mobile, lightweight frame capable of quickly engaging a group of enemies with short term CC, from a very large distance away in some cases, ignoring damage from non-melee enemies, and then either disengaging instantly or popping a massive CC ability to sustain the combat... giving that frame some ability that makes her a hovering target in the air with energy drain preventing her from regen, and pushing her above the ground so that she's out of Vacuum range for most pickups that aren't directly below her.

An exalted grenade launcher? Absolutely awesome, would function amazingly with her Jet Stream augment and her primary weapons that mod for similar damage. A CC wind ability that groups and pushes away enemies allowing you to attack them in neat bundles while saving yourself from melee? Again, awesome, covers not only her weakness to most melee units, but also covers her weakness to the entire Infested faction by being able to clear small confined spaces. But at the expense of what?

Should it be at the expense of the what could be the greatest mobility cast in the game, the instant crowd control and winner of 'the most improvable ability in the game' award (dive bomb can literally be adjusted six million ways to make it a good ability, a great ability or an entirely OP ability...), or the instant crowd control ability that could be a defense cast capable of long-duration area denial and point protection with customisable elemental damage/procs on all enemies? When it comes down to it, Zephyr's kit should already be amazing. It just isn't because it was implemented badly.

I say it takes more imagination to look at what we have and make it great, because people are so biased against what we have right now.

But that's me ^^

Sorry for the follow-up rant...

[Caelward]

If anyone wants to know what a flying Zephyr would be like, go to the plains, pull out your archwing and try to fly into some of the caves or inside buildings.

[Foberon]

@Thaylien No wories i like the way you explain things, i learn a lot for the game from you!! Its not a contest of competition which requires more imagination her curent kit or new ideas, i only just said that it would be better if we are no limit our imagination in something specific when giving ideas. Im prety sure there are tons of similar ideas (better or worse) over the years but it would be imposible for a new player like me to cath up with all the things that happened over the years.

Back to Zephyr!! For exalted weapon that you mention i would prefer a rocket launcer over grenade.. because Pharah :P !!! I also have Titania now and i saw her way of flying completly diffent (its actual flying) and i like it a lot. I dont mind that i have to get in and out of her flight mode to collect thing but that just me. But i still like Zephyrs mobility more and i like that they are diffent, but with Zephyr i start seeing some problems with her mobility, When going very hight it treats you like you fall in a pit and reapears you on the floor and its really anoying. I would love if she also had also more air control, like when aiming in the air instead of falling like the rest to keep you there for longer periods, even control the height you are in the air in some ways with the jump button for a good anount of time.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Foberon

[Birdframe_Prime]

43 minutes ago, Foberon said:

When going very hight it treats you like you fall in a pit and reapears you on the floor and its really anoying. I would love if she also had also more air control

Yeah, that's the maps for you, the majority of the tiles used to make the maps were created using the original movement system where being able to go higher than about 20 feet was considered actually very skillful. That's why Excal's third ability used to be Super Jump, which was a little shorter than the current Bullet Jump, and that was his mobility. The ceilings have been adjusted a little in some tiles, like the Void ones, but a lot of the rest of them have the same reset-ceilings on them.

But you're not wrong about the aim glide, I've suggested it myself before, the ability for more longer duration on Aim Glide is something we'd all like as Zephyr players.