Can we have DE look at Limbo again instead of harassing players that are "doing it wrong"?

[Azamagon]

While this is not a full solution to all the existing Limbo-problems, how about letting melee channeling be able to help with this? (Mainly aimed at helping with Banish and Rift Surge issues)

For example:
If you are in the Rift, wanting to fight enemies outside Rift? Use melee channeling strikes to pull enemies into the Rift (works both for Limbo and allies), for X duration.
If you are outside the Rift, wanting to fight Rifted enemies? Use melee channeling strikes to pull yourself into the Rift (works both for Limbo and allies), for X duration (unlimited time for a Limbo). Roll to get out as usual.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Azamagon

[5QU15HY]

19 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

While this is not a full solution to all the existing Limbo-problems, how about letting melee channeling be able to help with this? (Mainly aimed at helping with Banish and Rift Surge issues)

For example:
If you are in the Rift, wanting to fight enemies outside Rift? Use melee channeling strikes to pull enemies into the Rift (works both for Limbo and allies), for X duration.
If you are outside the Rift, wanting to fight Rifted enemies? Use melee channeling strikes to pull yourself into the Rift (works both for Limbo and allies), for X duration (unlimited time for a Limbo). Roll to get out as usual.

actually though a descent idea the implementation of the effect becomes more difficult due to triggering instances. to place in this example does a channel weapon now only hit enemys in rift if i am outside of rift and does my channel only hit enemys outside of rift if i am in rift

[MuscleBeach]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

there are certainly too many that permanently use Stasis and prevent Players from playing the Mission

This is the issue guys. You don't need stasis on 24/7. I think a lot of people bring 1 weapon to kill with and 2 to lvl, or I'm just weird. This means if you're lvling a melee, you won't be able to kill things in stasis with it. I'm a victim of this because I don't like sitting in Hydron (I also don't complain about limbo 90% of the time). Also, not all warframes are built for dishing out damage. So no, you can't just use warframe abilities to kill things in stasis. So you have 1 good argument and that's to stop lvling melee weapons in sorties and stuff. 

 

PS: I main an Atlas, Limbo is my best friend! <3

[Azamagon]

9 hours ago, 5QU15HY said:

actually though a descent idea the implementation of the effect becomes more difficult due to triggering instances. to place in this example does a channel weapon now only hit enemys in rift if i am outside of rift and does my channel only hit enemys outside of rift if i am in rift

No, no. Melee channeling does exactly what it does now, it would just ALSO do what I suggested. So, if you are in the rift and channelmeleeing against someone also in the rift, you hit them as normal (with meleechannelbonuses and all that). If you happen to hit an enemy who is outside the rift with a meleechanneled strike, you bring that enemy into the rift though.

And, if you are in the normal realm, channelmelee-striking someone in the normal realm, you hit them as normal (still, with the meleechannelbonuses and all that). If you happen to channelmelee-strike someone in the rift, you are taken into the rift as well.

It's just a bonus, an addition, to melee channeling, to be given as a general tool so that Limbo cannot troll with Banish/Rift Surge.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Azamagon

[robbybe01234]

On 1/9/2018 at 3:04 AM, Chaos.Blades said:

Seriously this needs to stop. Limbos powers are toxic to other players period. I can't even forma him without players threatening to report me. Don't give me that "your playing him wrong" bull crap. We need to stop harassing other players into stop using his powers and start harassing DE (don't actually do this) to remove the toxic nature of his powers. The only time with very few exceptions Limbo is good is when you play him solo because then you can play his GOOD rework without shutting down other players play styles.

Sorry can't follow you here.  You seem to be using urban version to describe an ability. The ability cant be toxic, it is only the person or the interaction between people.  I could make arguments that the response of some people toward limbo players is toxic (just standing around, demanding change in play, promoting limbo hate).

So even the premise of your argument is a thing I can't get behind.  That's not saying you can't adjust your stance and come at it from a different angle to get a positive change for both limbo and others.  

Oh and also the thing's name is LIMBO and that theme should stay.

[ShiraHagane]

But why does he have to affect allies?

Arguing for Limbo is like saying Vauban should be able to trap allies or that stomp should stun allies

[TheLexiConArtist]

This issue could be greatly softened if players had the ability to opt out of their fellows' intrusive buff effects in a seamless, passive manner.

The Rift and/or Stasis inside the rift could simply be set not to affect a player who opted out, thus meaning that (in the former case) they could shoot and be shot by enemies in the rift while remaining outside of it themselves, and (in the latter case) their bullets would not be frozen in place by Stasis.

 

This couldn't prevent the lack of enemy engagement Stasis causes by freezing them all nigh-indefinitely, but at least you aren't forced outside the Limbo-controlled area, or forced to melee.

[MuscleBeach]

 

11 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

This issue could be greatly softened if players had the ability to opt out of their fellows' intrusive buff effects in a seamless, passive manner.

You want to add a questionnaire to what does and doesn't have an effect on you? Yeah, not happening. Find a more elegant solution like:

Just change stasis from a freeze to 98% slow motion. That way people can stand on their face and unload still. Hitscans would still be instant. 

[5QU15HY]

i still don't get it, how is everyone complaining about having to use one of the most broken and over powered forms of damage in the game.

 

1 hour ago, ShiraHagane said:

But why does he have to affect allies?

Arguing for Limbo is like saying Vauban should be able to trap allies or that stomp should stun allies

it only affects their primary and secondary leaving them melee and warframe abilitys. to anyone that says that not all frames are built to deal damage, then your argument that i cant use my shooting weapons seems ill placed since you clearly entered the mission with reduced damage intent already.

16 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

This issue could be greatly softened if players had the ability to opt out of their fellows' intrusive buff effects in a seamless, passive manner.

The Rift and/or Stasis inside the rift could simply be set not to affect a player who opted out, thus meaning that (in the former case) they could shoot and be shot by enemies in the rift while remaining outside of it themselves, and (in the latter case) their bullets would not be frozen in place by Stasis.

 

This couldn't prevent the lack of enemy engagement Stasis causes by freezing them all nigh-indefinitely, but at least you aren't forced outside the Limbo-controlled area, or forced to melee.

i'm sorry i have to disagree with you on this. there are many frames that by function of abilitys and builds makes the game overly unplayable, i have made most of them... to blame limbo for this alone is a fools mistake of players without experience.

[TheLexiConArtist]

10 minutes ago, MuscleBeach said:

You want to add a questionnaire to what does and doesn't have an effect on you? Yeah, not happening. Find a more elegant solution like:

Just change stasis from a freeze to 98% slow motion. That way people can stand on their face and unload still. Hitscans would still be instant. 

An advanced options menu. It's literally the most elegant solution with a negative impact on nobody involved. People who use it still get the effect. People who like it in a squad don't have to deal with it being changed (more complaints!), people who are ambivalent don't see a difference, people who can't stand it can just.. opt out.

 

These are meant to be positive abilities. But they're intrusive, so not everyone will see them that way. Therefore, giving these people an option to passively refuse to partake in the 'benefit' is a winning solution for everyone involved.

5 minutes ago, 5QU15HY said:

i'm sorry i have to disagree with you on this. there are many frames that by function of abilitys and builds makes the game overly unplayable, i have made most of them... to blame limbo for this alone is a fools mistake of players without experience.

Where did I blame Limbo for anything alone? I could have included a statement such as "but freezing enemies in an area permanently isn't unique to Limbo, see Vauban bastilles etc".

Limbo's just the topic header here, so I'm framing that suggestion of mine as it pertains to Limbo, while it could apply to so many more. Mag bullet attractors in the way? Say no to it. Volt speed sticking you to all the walls? Say no. Limbo stasis? Tell it you're not interested.

Edited January 10, 2018 by EDYinnit

[Jakorak]

21 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I'm gonna say it.....you're doing it wrong.

Now before you press that button, hear me out. limbo is very well known for max range builds to freeze the world and stop the game, but have you considered negative range builds? Instead of mass stopping the world and running around ruining your team's gameplay, have a negative range build. What you can do with that is 2 things. You section off the battle field and keep yourself in the rift. Cataclysm pulls you out of the rift when it ends, which is guaranteed death if you're caught naked. What negative range does is guarantee the cataclysm won't touch you is you cast is far enough, so that you don't get pull out. Also, since it pulls a smaller range of enemies out of the rift, you won't be destroying other people's games and they won't be breaking your stasis. You're forgetting his most impressive ability, which is Rift Surge. Rift surge means that anyone who's in the rift at that time will stay there eve when there's no cataclysm there. Here's what you do: Stasis, Cataclysm, Rift Surge, Cataclysm again. You can pull enough enemies into the rift for yourself without disrupting others. That's how you play limbo non-annoyingly.

While this is vaild, you are also the 1 limbo out of 1,000 limbos that gives a single F*** about their teammates enjoyment of the game

[5QU15HY]

Just now, Jakorak said:

While this is vaild, you are also the 1 limbo out of 1,000 limbos that gives a single F*** about their teammates enjoyment of the game

and how about the harassment that the good limbos get for just loading into a mission then? if i get overwhelming hate for just playing a frame, what about my enjoyment?

[Jakorak]

1 minute ago, 5QU15HY said:

and how about the harassment that the good limbos get for just loading into a mission then? if i get overwhelming hate for just playing a frame, what about my enjoyment?

welp I can't control those A******s anymore than i can control all the A******s that run max range stasis limbo in secondary only or primary only sorties.

Me personally, I'll just hold my tongue when pub limbos show up until the max range stasis comes out, THEN i'll unload the boredom sass and/or every bullet I have to force them to re-up their stasis continually.

Oh yea I'll also advocate for changing Limbo's dumb &amp;#&#33; kit that was dumb before the rework even made it into the game

[5QU15HY]

15 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

An advanced options menu. It's literally the most elegant solution with a negative impact on nobody involved. People who use it still get the effect. People who like it in a squad don't have to deal with it being changed (more complaints!), people who are ambivalent don't see a difference, people who can't stand it can just.. opt out.

 

These are meant to be positive abilities. But they're intrusive, so not everyone will see them that way. Therefore, giving these people an option to passively refuse to partake in the 'benefit' is a winning solution for everyone involved.

Where did I blame Limbo for anything alone? I could have included a statement such as "but freezing enemies in an area permanently isn't unique to Limbo, see Vauban bastilles etc".

Limbo's just the topic header here, so I'm framing that suggestion of mine as it pertains to Limbo, while it could apply to so many more. Mag bullet attractors in the way? Say no to it. Volt speed sticking you to all the walls? Say no. Limbo stasis? Tell it you're not interested.

so basically play in solo mode and not take anyone with you because other frames have effects.

[5QU15HY]

10 minutes ago, Jakorak said:

welp I can't control those A******s anymore than i can control all the A******s that run max range stasis limbo in secondary only or primary only sorties.

Me personally, I'll just hold my tongue when pub limbos show up until the max range stasis comes out, THEN i'll unload the boredom sass and/or every bullet I have to force them to re-up their stasis continually.

Oh yea I'll also advocate for changing Limbo's dumb &amp;#&#33; kit that was dumb before the rework even made it into the game

so your response to limbo is to call him stupid and say if i cant have fun nether can you? did you try asking them or maybe implying that they could change their build? in most cases it because a player doesn't understand limbo functions and throws mod into a frame. then to add to the level of people having hate for limbo most player seem to think that a limbo needs to run 43% (6.88m) range to be effectively not a troll. that train of though is similar to just don't show up.

[TheLexiConArtist]

6 minutes ago, 5QU15HY said:

so basically play in solo mode and not take anyone with you because other frames have effects.

Not even remotely close. It actually promotes public matchmaking, if you don't have to worry about running into some intrusive 'buffs' that would make your life miserable.

That's the point of having choice in the matter. Choosing to opt out of what you don't want, specifically, so that you can match and play with everything else, even othr effects from the same Warframe (e.g. hating Volt's Speed but enjoying his shields and CC)

[5QU15HY]

1 minute ago, EDYinnit said:

Not even remotely close. It actually promotes public matchmaking, if you don't have to worry about running into some intrusive 'buffs' that would make your life miserable.

That's the point of having choice in the matter. Choosing to opt out of what you don't want, specifically, so that you can match and play with everything else, even othr effects from the same Warframe (e.g. hating Volt's Speed but enjoying his shields and CC)

so does that mean i can opt out of hysteria having an increase amount of energy consumed over time. at this point i want all the good but never any bad seem ill placed in a game with so many frames and ways to build them.

[TheLexiConArtist]

6 minutes ago, 5QU15HY said:

so does that mean i can opt out of hysteria having an increase amount of energy consumed over time. at this point i want all the good but never any bad seem ill placed in a game with so many frames and ways to build them.

Hysteria doesn't increase your energy consumed over time if your squadmate is using it, and therefore has literally no relevance.

Consider actually reading the material provided before you make statements that insult your own intellect.

 

Also this:

11 minutes ago, 5QU15HY said:

so your response to limbo is to call him stupid and say if i cant have fun nether can you? did you try asking them or maybe implying that they could change their build?

My suggestion of a player being able to opt-out of undesirable effects from allies is designed specifically so nobody else has to change their playstyle or build because 1-3 other members of the squad at the time happen to not like the result. The user keeps the fun of using it. The non-users don't experience any personal loss of enjoyment because of it.

For a better comparison than your Hysteria comment, consider Harrow's 4th ability's invulnerability affecting a Chroma player who wants to self-damage in order to charge up their Vex Armour. Chroma player opts out of allied invulnerability effects, Harrow keeps using 4 freely, both are better off.

Nobody has to solo. Nobody has to abort. Everybody wins.

[ShiraHagane]

55 minutes ago, 5QU15HY said:

it -only- affects their primary and secondary

So what you're saying is that because you like using melee, I have to as well?

I happen to like melee, but when Limbo has the ability to actively prevent you from using something in your arsenal, there's a problem

[chainchompguy3]

If people really don't like Limbo holding everything is stasis forever, i'd almost say just make it's duration unaffected by mods. Fixes it taking forever to wear off, and it can be played off as making limbo have to think tactically about when to use this window of opportunity.

 

What I'd really like to see, though, is some sort of damage prediction system. As it currently stands, people complain that Limbo prevents you from doing damage with anything other than melee during stasis. This is flat out just untrue: he delays it. 5 rockets shot in the direction of a stasis'd enemy will still fly forward and explode on them, just only after stasis wears off.

Then again, warframe is a horde shooter. Knowing when a priority target is dead, so that you can move on to shooting the next, is a very important part of gameplay. Delaying the damage, but not displaying it, can be frustrating. So just display it. It might be difficult to do with projectiles, but it can definitely be done with hitscan.

Hell, freezing allied projectiles is mostly just an aesthetic thing. It's cool as hell to have it suddenly unleash a barrage of bullets, but it's not necessary in the slightest. If it's that much of a deal, just let them fly freely, and charge the stored damage onto anything they pass through.

 

I personally, would like more consistency with how Stasis treats damage as a whole. Melee applies instantly, but hitscan is stored? and Projectiles only apply after resuming their flight path?

Make it all the same, either store all damage, or apply all of it instantly.

 

 

If your issues are with the Rift mechanic as a whole, then there's really not much that can be done. By it's very nature, it's allowing another player to control who fights what. Misuse, through malice or mistakes, can-and-will lead to grief.

But at the same time, it's extremely powerful. If you don't have to worry about being shot in the back, and you can just focus on a small cluster of enemies limbo set up for you, victory is almost guaranteed.

So it's either lose one of the most powerful, interesting, and unique mechanics ever to grace this game, or keep it, but deal with people who misuse it.

 

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

This issue could be greatly softened if players had the ability to opt out of their fellows' intrusive buff effects in a seamless, passive manner.

The Rift and/or Stasis inside the rift could simply be set not to affect a player who opted out, thus meaning that (in the former case) they could shoot and be shot by enemies in the rift while remaining outside of it themselves, and (in the latter case) their bullets would not be frozen in place by Stasis.

 

This couldn't prevent the lack of enemy engagement Stasis causes by freezing them all nigh-indefinitely, but at least you aren't forced outside the Limbo-controlled area, or forced to melee.

An interesting idea. It'd certainly shut up a lot of people who complain endlessly about having to play with a frame that doesn't play well with theirs. Just tell them to opt-out of the abilities.

I just think that goes against the spirit of co-op games, at that point. If you can't communicate well enough to organize when some abilities are cast, then maybe you need better team-comp.

That, and it'd probably end up a bit clunky. If you change frames often, you have different effects you don't want. If you switch from Chroma to Mag, it takes an extra step to re-enable Harrow's 4, disable whatever other preferences you might have (volts speed?), and then you can continue to the mission.

Additionally, some players use these abilities to save allies from death. So say a Harrow looks over at his squad UI, and sees an ally dying. He quickly uses the last of his energy to cast his 4, and save them from death. Except they were an Inaros, who opted out of that ability so he'd never be prevented from gaining energy through rage. So now the Inaros is dead, and Harrow is out of energy.

[MuscleBeach]

2 hours ago, 5QU15HY said:

it only affects their primary and secondary leaving them melee and warframe abilitys. to anyone that says that not all frames are built to deal damage, then your argument that i cant use my shooting weapons seems ill placed since you clearly entered the mission with reduced damage intent already.

What? Just because my warframe isn't damage focused doesn't mean I don't expect to contribute to the mission with damage. Shutting off 2/3 of my load out is not good. Forcing me to play melee or using my melee weapon that I'm leveling and therefore not capable of dealing tons of damage is also not good. 

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Where did I blame Limbo for anything alone? I could have included a statement such as "but freezing enemies in an area permanently isn't unique to Limbo, see Vauban bastilles etc".

Vauban doesn't make people not play the game. For everyone arguing about this, maybe you should go read the first post by DE in the Ash Megathread floating around the first page of this forum. Bladestorm got nerfed to due removal of player interaction. Stasis reduces player interaction. 

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

An advanced options menu. It's literally the most elegant solution with a negative impact on nobody involved. People who use it still get the effect. People who like it in a squad don't have to deal with it being changed (more complaints!), people who are ambivalent don't see a difference, people who can't stand it can just.. opt out.

This is not elegant. Why would they have an option menu just for Limbo when they can just alter the ability, like the way I suggested? This has a negative impact on DE as a developer. How does this sound? "Wow, there's a warframe in this game that is so annoying they had to make an interaction menu for him?" Does this seriously sound like a healthy way for them to handle this situation? Does that really sound healthier than just fixing the ability? 

[ZodiacShinryu]

3 hours ago, ShiraHagane said:

But why does he have to affect allies?

Arguing for Limbo is like saying Vauban should be able to trap allies or that stomp should stun allies

Your example is incomplete however. Vauban's and Rhino's CC isn't also a direct protective ability. The drawback on Stasis is because it is arguably the strongest CC in the game. Because it combines with Cataclysm it provides a zone where in like 95% of scenarios you are invincible, a near perfect defense. You cant be attacked from the outside and everything inside is frozen pretty much permanently. If something escapes Stasis it is because it left Cataclysm to which it is outside and still can not harm you. Vauban and Rhino are not going to protect you from enemies outside the area of their ability's range; they are not going to protect you from the gun ships or the aerial bombardments in the plains but Limbo will.

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

This issue could be greatly softened if players had the ability to opt out of their fellows' intrusive buff effects in a seamless, passive manner.

The Rift and/or Stasis inside the rift could simply be set not to affect a player who opted out, thus meaning that (in the former case) they could shoot and be shot by enemies in the rift while remaining outside of it themselves, and (in the latter case) their bullets would not be frozen in place by Stasis.

I am not sure how you would implement this as far as it is concerned with Limbo and Stasis which isn't a buff as much as it is a local effect. The only time you ever need to worry about Rift mechanics are when you or the enemies are Banished it is the only instances were you are in separate planes out of your control. Cataclysm is simple (ignoring abilities), if you and your target are in the bubble you can attack each other or if you and your target are separated by the limit of the ability you can not attack each other. Cataclysm is just a localized version of normal rules of engagement. Now we throw in Stasis and the enemy AI is basically removed at the cost of immediate feedback of guns while inside the bubble all the while having map wide protections. However by your suggestion you can just ignore the drawbacks of Stasis but still reap the benefits of it. Why should that be allowed?

I will say your suggestion is only "slightly" better than the asinine "just make Stasis affect Limbo's guns only" suggestions simply because technically you wouldn't be protected by Cataclysm either. I would assume someone (if anyone it would be the Limbo) still is though meaning you are just an annoyance if you need revives because they still have the benefits of the ability. I mean I suppose its natural for people to want all the benefits but none of the drawbacks but that doesn't make it right. Ultimately there is little reason to spend resources to make a comprehensive option of what people may or may not want that could also be exploited for fringe case use.

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

consider Harrow's 4th ability's invulnerability affecting a Chroma player who wants to self-damage in order to charge up their Vex Armour. Chroma player opts out of allied invulnerability effects, Harrow keeps using 4 freely, both are better off.

Nobody has to solo. Nobody has to abort. Everybody wins.

Chroma (as my favorite frame conceptually) has many more problems than this example.

1. Chroma shouldn't need to self-damage. Self damage needs some limits because it tips the balance of Vex unfairly.
2. Covenant stops Vex, period. Doesn't even allow the intended method of gaining stacks.
3. Nearly everything that anyone does around Chroma affects Vex.

Basically the only time I want most squadmates to exist is when I am finished getting stacks. Then I want them to promptly cease to be again when Vex wears off and I am ready to stack. The thing is people look at public matchmaking wrong. When you go into public you resign yourself to the public and whatever they end up doing. If you want a specific experience you have options: Solo, recuiting, friends. or aborting. I am not going to complain every time I come across max CC range frame (that will prevent me from stacking Vex), or high damage AoE frames (which will prevent me from getting stacks), or support frames doing support things (that prevent me from getting stacks). I'll figure out how to work with them or around them or at worse just leave. If I cared so much about how the mission played out I'd just gone solo or recruit in the first place.

[TheLexiConArtist]

7 minutes ago, chainchompguy3 said:

An interesting idea. It'd certainly shut up a lot of people who complain endlessly about having to play with a frame that doesn't play well with theirs. Just tell them to opt-out of the abilities.

I just think that goes against the spirit of co-op games, at that point. If you can't communicate well enough to organize when some abilities are cast, then maybe you need better team-comp.

That, and it'd probably end up a bit clunky. If you change frames often, you have different effects you don't want. If you switch from Chroma to Mag, it takes an extra step to re-enable Harrow's 4, disable whatever other preferences you might have (volts speed?), and then you can continue to the mission.

Additionally, some players use these abilities to save allies from death. So say a Harrow looks over at his squad UI, and sees an ally dying. He quickly uses the last of his energy to cast his 4, and save them from death. Except they were an Inaros, who opted out of that ability so he'd never be prevented from gaining energy through rage. So now the Inaros is dead, and Harrow is out of energy.

Arguably, having effects that impede your allies is also against the spirit of co-op, even if the intentions are good. I don't mind people enjoying and using Volt's speed, but goddamn does it mess with my 3000 hours' worth of ingrained muscle memory. Some would say it's against the spirit of co-op to enforce your personal ideals on others (hence why the defense against broken mechanics and OP weaponry like old Tonkor/Simulor is typically "go solo then"). Therefore, the solution is to not step on each others' toes.

If the game didn't have public matchmaking, maybe it'd be more reasonable to place the burden on communication, but anonymous matchmade games throw that out. By the time you're in game, you shouldn't expect to change someone's playstyle and build. But at the same time, you shouldn't be forced to abort because of those effects.

 

It might be clunky at first, but people will just deal with it the same way they just have to deal with swapping Arcane sets between cosmetics right now. Perhaps at some point these opt-outs could be tied to advanced loadout options, which would reduce the potential for a 'whoops' moment like that.

 

Your final comment is a fair criticism. That could happen, mild inconvenience as it is, but it also has an opposite side: Having a 'cure' doesn't communicate the reason either. A Volt who sees an ally lacking their Speed buff will often just re-cast it on them, thinking they're helping, despite the real reason being that the target had backflipped the unwanted buff away. _{(see just about every fissure mission I run ever)}

In your example, the Harrow might be inconvenienced for wasted energy, but the Inaros dying isn't an argument against the option: it's portrayed as an "advanced" setting for a reason. You turn things like healing/DR/invulnerability off at your own risk!

2 minutes ago, MuscleBeach said:

Vauban doesn't make people not play the game. For everyone arguing about this, maybe you should go read the first post by DE in the Ash Megathread floating around the first page of this forum. Bladestorm got nerfed to due removal of player interaction. Stasis reduces player interaction. 

This is not elegant. Why would they have an option menu just for Limbo when they can just alter the ability, like the way I suggested? This has a negative impact on DE as a developer. How does this sound? "Wow, there's a warframe in this game that is so annoying they had to make an interaction menu for him?" Does this seriously sound like a healthy way for them to handle this situation? Does that really sound healthier than just fixing the ability? 

First: No, Booben doesn't stop people playing. That was a targeted response to someone saying that I was singling Limbo out for the enemy non-interaction, which is pretty effectively identical to a well-upkept Bastille (once the issue of player bullets in stasis is out of the way per my suggestion). Also, I counter your citation with Blind Mirage. You could still go shoot the blind targets, and the player was using 4 a lot, but there was effectively no player interaction there. _{(Don't counter-counter with Resonant Quake, that's a crime and someone at DE should answer for it.)}

Second: It's not an option menu 'just for Limbo'. It can affect all sorts of Warframes. Bullet Attractors, Speed buffs, invulnerability for self-damaging Chromas, the Rift and/or Stasis...

If they alter the ability they've changed the Limbo players' playstyles. Contrarily, if they allow people to opt out of unwanted buffing effects, everyone carries on pretty much ignorant of each others' personal grievances and is happier for it.

That, to me, sounds much better.

[robbybe01234]

38 minutes ago, chainchompguy3 said:

If people really don't like Limbo holding everything is stasis forever, i'd almost say just make it's duration unaffected by mods. Fixes it taking forever to wear off, and it can be played off as making limbo have to think tactically about when to use this window of opportunity.

 

What I'd really like to see, though, is some sort of damage prediction system. As it currently stands, people complain that Limbo prevents you from doing damage with anything other than melee during stasis. This is flat out just untrue: he delays it. 5 rockets shot in the direction of a stasis'd enemy will still fly forward and explode on them, just only after stasis wears off.

Then again, warframe is a horde shooter. Knowing when a priority target is dead, so that you can move on to shooting the next, is a very important part of gameplay. Delaying the damage, but not displaying it, can be frustrating. So just display it. It might be difficult to do with projectiles, but it can definitely be done with hitscan.

Hell, freezing allied projectiles is mostly just an aesthetic thing. It's cool as hell to have it suddenly unleash a barrage of bullets, but it's not necessary in the slightest. If it's that much of a deal, just let them fly freely, and charge the stored damage onto anything they pass through.

 

I personally, would like more consistency with how Stasis treats damage as a whole. Melee applies instantly, but hitscan is stored? and Projectiles only apply after resuming their flight path?

Make it all the same, either store all damage, or apply all of it instantly.

 

 

An interesting idea. It'd certainly shut up a lot of people who complain endlessly about having to play with a frame that doesn't play well with theirs. Just tell them to opt-out of the abilities.

 

As a Limbo in training, I do like the idea of getting a queue when the shots would kill the enemy, I would even find it fun and reassuring.  But when is damage calculated? Can we get a confirmation here?  I was under the impression that it was calculated at the time of impact not trigger pull.  If that's the case, I wouldn't even begin to know how they would adjust damage calculation to accommodate that feature.  Would they have to create a whole new damage prediction model? 

This whole opt in or out option?  Are you thinking that out of a group of 4 that 1 (that opted out) would not be affected by stasis and the other 3 would? In the same instance?  Would enemies for the opt out player also be unaffected by stasis?  Would they still be affected but the opt out player can still shoot stasis enemies?  I'm not sure this opt out feature is feasible. 

 

edit: I was typing while ZodiacShinryu posted.  I'm pretty much in agreement.

Edited January 10, 2018 by robbybe01234

[TheLexiConArtist]

28 minutes ago, robbybe01234 said:

This whole opt in or out option?  Are you thinking that out of a group of 4 that 1 (that opted out) would not be affected by stasis and the other 3 would? In the same instance?  Would enemies for the opt out player also be unaffected by stasis?  Would they still be affected but the opt out player can still shoot stasis enemies?  I'm not sure this opt out feature is feasible. 

 

edit: I was typing while ZodiacShinryu posted.  I'm pretty much in agreement.

If you'll forgive the reverse-chronology quoting here; your simple answer is:

The enemies are still frozen for everyone, opting out of the 'buffs' only affects whether the Rift Plane affects shooting targets/being shot by targets and whether your bullets would freeze within a Cataclysm when Stasis is in effect.

40 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

I am not sure how you would implement this as far as it is concerned with Limbo and Stasis which isn't a buff as much as it is a local effect. The only time you ever need to worry about Rift mechanics are when you or the enemies are Banished it is the only instances were you are in separate planes out of your control. Cataclysm is simple (ignoring abilities), if you and your target are in the bubble you can attack each other or if you and your target are separated by the limit of the ability you can not attack each other. Cataclysm is just a localized version of normal rules of engagement. Now we throw in Stasis and the enemy AI is basically removed at the cost of immediate feedback of guns while inside the bubble all the while having map wide protections. However by your suggestion you can just ignore the drawbacks of Stasis but still reap the benefits of it. Why should that be allowed?

I will say your suggestion is only "slightly" better than the asinine "just make Stasis affect Limbo's guns only" suggestions simply because technically you wouldn't be protected by Cataclysm either. I would assume someone (if anyone it would be the Limbo) still is though meaning you are just an annoyance if you need revives because they still have the benefits of the ability. I mean I suppose its natural for people to want all the benefits but none of the drawbacks but that doesn't make it right. Ultimately there is little reason to spend resources to make a comprehensive option of what people may or may not want that could also be exploited for fringe case use.

With regards to Stasis and implementation, remember that shots fired (abilities thrown, etc) still retain a reference to their source. This is how the game knows who gets affinity for that last-hitting bullet. It would be trivial to add a check in the code block for the Stasis freezing effect that polled the source's 'ignore' setting for Stasis and skipped over the freeze entirely if need be.

Similarly, shots that connect with targets have to check the Rift Plane status of both the target unit and the source. You can imagine this with the pseudocode if (Target.isInRift == Source.isInRift) then {damage can be dealt}. In our new case, this becomes if (Player.ignoreSettings.Rift == true || Target.isInRift == Source.isInRift) then {damage}. A simple backreference check to the player (be they source or target) to solve most of the Limbo Trolling issues quietly and without demanding changes to abilities or playstyles.

An important note is that this conceptually only affects foreign abilities. You cannot play Limbo and have your Stasis' effect on bullets ignored. It's undecided whether it could/should apply to others playing an identical frame, though ideally it would (you trust yourself with the ability, you might not trust others).

Your supposition that it "overrides the necessary drawbacks" of using Stasis at all (for Limbo's allies alone, per the above) is not quite well-founded. On paper, perhaps that seems to be the case. In practice, you can just imagine the Stasis effect as being the same as bringing an equally-wide Bastille as their ally's Snowglobe... Outside doesn't shoot in, inside doesn't act or move.

Essentially, is the 'drawback' of Stasis effective and engaging for the player? I would argue that it's partially effective (forced melee and powers) but not particularly engaging (hence being considered troll-ish). Because this fails to meet both qualifiers, having the ability to ignore it if you don't have direct control of the effect is valid.

40 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

Chroma (as my favorite frame conceptually) has many more problems than this example.

1. Chroma shouldn't need to self-damage. Self damage needs some limits because it tips the balance of Vex unfairly.
2. Covenant stops Vex, period. Doesn't even allow the intended method of gaining stacks.
3. Nearly everything that anyone does around Chroma affects Vex.

I used Chroma vs. Invulnerability just as the most stark contrast I could think of between how 'objectively beneficial' a buff might seem and yet how utterly detrimental it can be in practice. That, plus theres a decent chance people experienced this directly during Eidolon hunts as Chroma and Harrow are common squadmates.

Edited January 10, 2018 by EDYinnit