A new kit for the Zephyr rework

[Dornam]

@(PS4)RenovaKunumaru Thanks for the re-evaluation, I appreciate you taking the time to look over it again.

As for your point of trying not to piss off the people who like her current abilities... I don't think there's ever a solution that will make 100% of everyone happy; no matter what changes are done, you're going draw the ire of either the people that want more aggressive changes or the die-hard fans of her current form depending on where you fall on the scale for sweeping changes. What I've tried to do is still keep all of her kit intact, while still giving her a new and interesting play style that still meshes with her current one. You'll notice that she still has all of her abilities with their original functionality, excluding tornado which needed more severe changes in my opinion, though I'm pretty sure that that opinion is not a minority.

To be honest, I don't think you can be a human and not put some of yourself or your vision into something that you've worked on, so, of course her "reworked" abilities are a reflection of what I see in Zephyr. Now whether that picture is one that other people can agree with is a matter of debate, and this is the forums, so it's the right place for it.

As for what her abilities "should be", I do think I did a decent job of analyzing what they are currently and what, at least I think, they should be. Again, a matter for debate, and I welcome you to tell me what her tailwind, dive bomb, and whatever else "should be". I agree with you that it is always going to be a contentious matter to change things that people may like, but we get nowhere by just telling each other to reconsider it, without adding ideas to the conversation.

In my opinion, I've done a decent job of keeping her current kit, but still adding to and improving the functionality of her abilities, while adding new and fun interactions between them to provide interesting and new game play opportunities. I've also kept all of her base abilities mostly unchanged in the functionality, just added the ability to aim, and made them cost what I think is a more appropriate amount of energy for the amount of utility/damage you get out of it. This is also taking into consideration that her abilities need to be something unique that no other frame can do, I know there's the argument that bullet jump is slower and not modable, but by the same token, if you want it to be an ability, you need to distinguish it from the base capabilities they literally every frame has as just a movement option. That's why I've done my best to both keep tailwind and dive bomb, while still allowing them to be used in their current form, and augmenting her overall mobility with her new first ability. It allows her to play Zephyr as you always have, while still offering the option to use your channeled 1 to fly, gain height, and speed or be master of the skies as zephyr is in her current form.

If you disagree or think there's a better controls scheme for it, let me know, this is just what one person has come up with, there may be a much better way that these abilities work between 1, 2, bullet jump, double jump, and rolling (or whatever ideas you have).

[Dornam]

@Hallucinated I'm not sure exactly what overall point you're trying to make by pointing out that I may have false equivalences, but it's not about whether she's unpopular, hated, and how statistics work when you've got such a high number of characters to choose from, my post is about suggesting a new kit that still contains all of the original elements for the die hard Zephyr fans, while providing tools for a new play style that can be fun and engaging.

For example: my point is not that people hate her or her abilities, my point is that people hate her tornadoes for what they do currently; what can we do to change that? Argue that point if you want, but I have not met a single person that has actually liked tornado in the current incarnation. Feel free to tell me what your point was with your 4 outlined equivalences if you think I missed it.

As for my suggestions, I would have to disagree about losing the Zephyr's identity in the ability shuffle. She still has all of her current kit, but she also has new, improved tools to do the same job with (in my opinion) improved capability. The abilities as I suggested are basically new functionality to the same things that she currently does, fly, dive bomb, control air, and be master of the sky. The only thing that really changes drastically in the kit is how her tornadoes become more useful. Other than that, she just gains new tools to do the same job she already does. Her ult is definitely up for debate though, I wasn't married to any of the ones I suggested.

I'm surprised by your "thematically similar frame" mention, but I do agree, I hadn't ever thought about it that way, there are some frames that their "theme" is very similar out of context. Honestly though, they are built around a completely different idea, even if their "theme" may be very close to another. I'm still surprised I didn't see the correlation between frames like banshee and zephyr though.

As for bullet jump being a competitor to tailwind, I'm not going to argue that it's a complete replacement for mobility, its not and that's not the point I was making. The point of what I said is that it's not worth what it currently costs for what it gives you. That's why I moved horizontal tailwind to her dodge roll (which you can do for 3 energy without limit when channeling her 1), and her vertical tailwind replaces her jump or bullet jump when channeling her 1 at the cost of 3 energy per cast, with no limit on number of casts while channeling 1. Though, looking back on it, I'd probably make activating her 1 cast vertical tailwind for 3 energy if on the ground. With these changes (or something similar) it gives tailwind its own niche that no other frame can do, unlike regular parkour moves, which, while they can't straight up replace tailwind in it's current incarnation, they can definitely compete with it, seeing as parkour doesn't cost any energy.

Of course, these are the ideas I had for the control scheme between vertical and horizontal tailwind and 1; suggest something different if you have a better idea how you would make each one castable.

[(PSN)Doctor__Zaius]

First, just wanted to say that, holy poop, I love your ideas, and I wish a lot of them could be implemented. I do think the 4 is a little too dramatic of a change (I would absolutely love it, but I don't think DE would ever give Zeph that much of a power bump, much less a deluxe skin [sigh]). Regardless though, I love the increased mobility of your build, and I've always been a fan of a single tornado as an option.

Also, as per your ethereal wings that pop out on Tailwind recasts, at PAX East 2017, I asked the Dev Stream crew during their panel if they could make ethereal wings something Zeph always had when double jumping. They replied about the Zeph deluxe skin and that I should maybe look out for that. Just saying, I also absolutely support the added wing effect--that would be sweet as hell.

For counterpoint, and just to keep the conversation going, here're the ideas I've wound up with (after months of considering this). They're a lot less dramatic, but I think they leave Zeph in a nice place where she feels unique and makes certain gaming options viable in a way that I feel only she can.

And, yeah, I saw in this thread that the Zeph rework is already underway, but we haven't even seen a demo for it, so I'm assuming it's not too close to finished.

Anyway...

TL:DR:

1. Aim-able Tailwind, it also pulls enemies after Zeph, she and enemies Float at the end of it so she can pick them off, stay in the air, and then comfortable decide where to move next.
2. Add Wind Tunnel, a CC power that pushes enemies back, disarms them, or procs them.
3. Turbulence is fine, though I'd take the fixes Dornam suggested in his first post.
4. Add the option to hold-cast Tornado, in which case it makes one, larger tornado that gathers enemies up and holds them in one spot, making them easier to kill, and locking down one part of a map, similar to Dornam's proposed rework.

Details:

1. Tailwind/Float/Divebomb: Aim-able, like Bullet Jump, only it pulls enemies into the air with Zeph. At the end of the jump, she and the enemies Float in the air, allowing her and allies to pick them off. However, the Float persists even if there are no enemies, allowing Zeph to always take the high ground and stay there for an extended period (depending on Duration). Cast again for another Tailwind (as is now), hold-cast to cast/reset Float when already in the air (also resets double jumps). If Tailwind is cast at the ground, it becomes Divebomb. Maybe have Divebomb scale with your melee weapons and their ground pound stats? *Tailwind can't be used on bosses NOR other Tenno.
2. Wind Tunnel: From what I understand, Zeph was originally supposed to be CC, so I thought a new power should help her fit into that role. An area of affect that pushes enemies back, lets them through disarmed, or lets them through with a proc. Its size can be changed with Ability Range, and the type of Wind Tunnel you can create--CC, Disarm, or Proc--can be changed like Ivara's arrows and Vaub's traps. I'd assume Slash for the Proc, but maybe let it change like Tornado's proc, if you or allies melee or shoot it.
3. Turbulence: Fine as is, although I would totally take the hitscan and recast fixed you mentioned.
4. Tornado: Subtler change here--tap to cast as a few roaming, CC tornadoes, as it is now, or hold to cast one Tornado that stays in the spot you targeted. Either way, smaller tornadoes hold onto enemies for much longer, allowing allies to more easily shoot them, and the single, hold-cast tornado holds enemies until it ends, or until it gets "full" with an amount of enemies dependent on Ability Strength.

That's it. Just wanted to provide a less dramatic option for Zeph, in case DE is checking these forums.

My thing has always been giving her dominance in the air, and I think that providing her the ability to easily stay airborne, with any weapons she wants, would be awesome. It would make sniping interesting (she can create her own sniper nests anywhere, even in mid-air by casting Turbulence with Float) and it would make self-harm explosives relatively safe again (cause I know my Tonkor is still just sitting there).

[Azamagon]

Just wanna chime in on Tornado. Wouldn't it be rather easily fixed into being a rather awesome skill if;

1) Attacking a Tornado did similar things as what attacking an Undertow pool does, i.e. damage will be distributed among all enemies caught inside. ENEMIES' attacks could also contribute to the damage, if their shots pass a Tornado. This would make Tornado a combination of:

• CC -> Via picking enemies up, as we all know
• Damage distribution -> This can grant you and your allies more "even" kills, granting some horde-killing efficiency even to powerful "single target"-weapons, among other things
• Defensive "towers" - > Since enemies shooting the Tornadoes also get caught + hurt the enemies inside.
• Aim helping -> Since you only have to aim at a big TORNADO, rather than individual enemies. This is PERFECT for Zephyr who might be dashing around in the air, since shooting while flying around midair is harder to aim than grounded shots, not to mention alleviates missing out on punchthrough effects which are far easier to use from the ground

2) Recasting Tornado simply unsummons them.

Just those 2 very simple changes, and the complaints of Tornado would most likely plummet to near non-existance, don't you think?

[Dornam]

@(PS4)Doctor__Zaius Thanks for reading, I did try to make her have a cohesive kit that was I thought would be fun to use. As for her 4th, those where ideas that I just thought of off the top of my head; I was more focused on making the rest of her kit worth using. I've personally never thought that tornado is worth the 4th ability slot, it should be relegated to 2 or 3 with more utility added. Of course, there's the option of adding more damage to it to make it viable, but  I personally think it's boring and non-interactive if you make a static or roaming death whirlwind. I'd much rather her have it as a defensive/utility ability with some damage and give her something more interesting and interactive for an ult. Feel free to tell me your ideas of what you have for a new 4th ability for her.

Well, it's at least good to hear their opinion on her getting energy wings and I can hope that they make her kit worth using enough that I might consider getting Zephyr prime or deluxe for the fashion.

From other people on the forums I've heard that they said it's actually almost ready to be put into code... but they also claimed they were going to show us a preview on this past dev stream... which didn't happen, so I don't know. It was literally the only thing I tuned in for and it didn't happen... much disappointment was had on my end.

As for your ideas, they seem decent and very similar to what I proposed, but I still don't think tornado belongs in her 4th. Also, you're giving her two static (or roaming) defense abilities, which I'm not a fan of. I think that kinda stagnates her kit, leaving her with 1: fly/dive bomb, 2: defend area, 3: defend self, 4: defend & damage area. When you look at what her abilities do as an overall kit, it's kinda overloaded with defense tools, which seems like it would be boring to play. Her only active ability would be her 1.

I don't mind what you've done with tornado, it's basically the same thing that I suggested, with different wording, but I still think it lacks as an ultimate ability. I still prefer my version of her 1, they're mostly the same thing, but mine provides more control and makes an overall different play style available to players, while still giving them their old Zephyr tools.

Would you change energy costs for Zephyr's 1 the way you have it outlined?

[Dornam]

@Azamagon Yeah, those changes would definitely help with the complaints about her current tornado. I personally was trying to shift it more towards a helpful tool that you can take advantage of with dive bomb or regular weapons. I do think that the spread damage to all captured enemies would be good, but I don't see the point of making enemies damage add to tornado. Either it wouldn't do much since they don't attack it or it becomes a taunt target and they attack it, which seems kinda silly to me and an overloaded ability. Also, enemy damage is minuscule compared to their health, essentially meaning that reflection or redirection of enemy damage does nothing unless it's multiplied by 10x or something ridiculous.

This would also make it a much easier target as you mentioned, which wouldn't be a bad idea.

As for unsummoning tornado, that's why I wanted it to be either moveable for no cost (i.e. augmented chroma 4) or act like snow globe: you get a certain number of tornadoes you can place where you want (3?), and when you summon a 4th, the first dissipates.

If DE did straight up implement your idea for tornadoes, it would definitely be an improvement and complaints would dive bomb, heh, but I just think parts of your suggestion wouldn't really do anything (enemies adding damage), and I'd just change how tornadoes are summoned/moved to be more usable (summon on target, stays there until you say otherwise).

Overall, I'd add weapon damage spreading to everything in tornado to my version of it since that helps in many respects as you've outlined.

[blacklusterseph]

On 2018/01/27 at 9:06 PM, Dornam said:

That's pretty much what I was going for. I was putting current tailwind on her dodge roll for just mobility and putting her "new tailwind" on her 1 as a channeled ability that you can actually steer and use to really fly. Since that's an ability, that would still work with your ideas of being able to mod it.

No, not really.

One of the fundamental differences I have with other reworks is splitting off tailwind into the roll. People bring it up often because of Limbo but in my opinion the only reason it is viable on Limbo is because he can trade the damage reduction for complete immunity in the rift. Zephyr has no such mechanic, and I have no interest in sacrificing roll which is one of the most fundamental elements of kit in the parkour system.

I also have no interest in Tailwind becoming a channeled ability. I think people erroneously bring it up as a control option because the common aspect on the abilities where it is used is that they are 'deployables'. Essentially an ability that you place. Granted some people think that is the answer for tailwind but since I don't support merging that ability with Divebomb so I cannot agree with that either.

To be clear, I don't support flight for Zephyr, I don't support channeled casts on Zephyr, I don't support merged tailwind and divebomb on Zephyr, I don't support aimed divebomb on Zephyr, I don't support dodge roll tailwind on Zephyr, I don't support steered tailwind on Zephyr or any variant of the previously stated suggestions. I've posted regarding this to varying extents elsewhere so I won't derail your thread with a long story. Just being repetitive so that you don't misunderstand my position for tacit agreement with what you have suggested.

[E-N-E-R-G-Y]

That first ability you suggest is dope

[Azamagon]

7 hours ago, Dornam said:

@Azamagon Yeah, those changes would definitely help with the complaints about her current tornado. I personally was trying to shift it more towards a helpful tool that you can take advantage of with dive bomb or regular weapons. I do think that the spread damage to all captured enemies would be good, but I don't see the point of making enemies damage add to tornado. Either it wouldn't do much since they don't attack it or it becomes a taunt target and they attack it, which seems kinda silly to me and an overloaded ability. Also, enemy damage is minuscule compared to their health, essentially meaning that reflection or redirection of enemy damage does nothing unless it's multiplied by 10x or something ridiculous.

This would also make it a much easier target as you mentioned, which wouldn't be a bad idea.

As for unsummoning tornado, that's why I wanted it to be either moveable for no cost (i.e. augmented chroma 4) or act like snow globe: you get a certain number of tornadoes you can place where you want (3?), and when you summon a 4th, the first dissipates.

If DE did straight up implement your idea for tornadoes, it would definitely be an improvement and complaints would dive bomb, heh, but I just think parts of your suggestion wouldn't really do anything (enemies adding damage), and I'd just change how tornadoes are summoned/moved to be more usable (summon on target, stays there until you say otherwise).

Overall, I'd add weapon damage spreading to everything in tornado to my version of it since that helps in many respects as you've outlined.

The main reason for enemy damage being accounted for was for the defensive and anti-griefing reasons (not for actual damage):
1) Defensive, so your allies can hide between them and the enemies.
2) Anti-griefing, because causing your allies to become unable to shoot at X location (due to a Tornado blocking their line of fire), but NOT blocking the enemies at X location... well, that's just plain annoying (and that's actually how it works right now, absorbing allied shots for the elemental changes and nothing else, while making distant enemies "guarded") and would just let it remain a much worse version of Mag's Magnetize! If it's gonna "block" allied shots, it should block enemies' too.

[Dornam]

@Azamagon Huh, I didn't think about that! Yeah, I suppose that I'd make it so that it absorbs enemy fire, but only fire that hits it directly, the same for allied fire. It wouldn't really add anything to damage, but it would make it so that it's an impassable wall for enemies and add that it can't really be used to grief. Do people really do that much in Warframe? I haven't met any real griefers in my 1300 hours played. I've met a lot of dumb or misinformed players, but I can't remember any at this moment that were intentionally trolling

[Azamagon]

1 minute ago, Dornam said:

@Azamagon Huh, I didn't think about that! Yeah, I suppose that I'd make it so that it absorbs enemy fire, but only fire that hits it directly, the same for allied fire. It wouldn't really add anything to damage, but it would make it so that it's an impassable wall for enemies and add that it can't really be used to grief. Do people really do that much in Warframe? I haven't met any real griefers in my 1300 hours played. I've met a lot of dumb or misinformed players, but I can't remember any at this moment that were intentionally trolling

Doesn't matter if it's intentional or not (I'd say it's mostly unintentional from my experiences in Warframe too), I still find it better to always prevent the possibilities of griefing asap.

[Dornam]

@blacklusterseph Huh, ok, I guess I misread your intentions previously. Thanks for the clarification. I guess you're one of the die hard fans of Zephyr's current kit that just wants improved stats/numbers? That's what I was attempting to do with this kit, keep all of the old abilities relatively unchanged as options for fans of current Zephyr, but add in new functionality for a (in my opinion) fun play style. Well, I guess we'll have to disagree on this one, you can't please everyone.

[Dornam]

@Azamagon Yeah, I agree with you on that, there is a lot of unintentionally badly placed abilities going on in warframe or just  clueless people who don't know any better. I was just wondering if you met many intentional griefers because this community seems pretty tame with it being PvE.

[Dornam]

@E-N-E-R-G-Y Thanks! I tried to take her current 1 and 2 and make something that would please the fans of current Zephyr and still give them the tool they have now, while still improving its functionality and adding new tools for a fun game play mechanic when combined with her tornado.

[Azamagon]

1 minute ago, Dornam said:

@Azamagon Yeah, I agree with you on that, there is a lot of unintentionally badly placed abilities going on in warframe or just  clueless people who don't know any better. I was just wondering if you met many intentional griefers because this community seems pretty tame with it being PvE.

No they are very few. But when they do, they can be quite annoying. Limbo being the most prominent (and most prone to have intentional griefers, likely due to the ease of doing so). But I've seen it with almost all Warframes, be it by direcly hampering the player's positioning (a la Ripline/SwitchTeleport/Bounce etc, although those are generally somewhat harmless), or by delaying / disrupting gameplay (Limbos in general on non-melee sorties, Max duration Nyx using MC on the last target on every wave of defense missions etc).

Luckily it's quite rare, but griefing is still something that should very much try to be avoided when designing / tweaking / rebalancing abilities.

[Dornam]

@Azamagon Yeah, I definitely agree with you, anti-grief mechanics need to be in abilities that affect other players. I do hear a lot about limbos griefing, but honestly, I've never seen a limbo intentionally griefing (though I know it was a thing with release day limbo). I do see a lot of them stalling battle and annoying teammates, but not to actively hamper them, it's just his kit kinda does that innately. I'm sure that limbo trolls are out there though.

[(XBOX)SneakyFortunis]

On 1/24/2018 at 2:54 AM, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Why can't Zephyr just be Zephyr?

Tailwind rolls? Vaubans Vortex? Justice Rains From Above?

Sigh..

because instead she needs to have her defense buff made into an invulnerable and needs to have 3 ults :D

[Dornam]

@(Xbox One)SneakyFortunis I'm assuming that your view is of my suggestions is positive? I can't really tell if you're just trying to be funny or actually have something constructive to say.

Zephyr's turbulence is definitely not an invulnerability and I'm not saying it should be, just that some of the bugginess of how it interacts with hitscan weapons should be looked at.

As for her ult, those 3 were just suggestions of what I though a proper 4th ability could be, not that she should have all three of them; I'd pick one, but I'm undecided. Feel free to suggest your own idea for her ult, I'm not married to any of them, they're just what I came up with that I thought might fit.

[SenorClipClop]

*sigh* Zephyr does not need abilities replaced, she just needs them updated to a post Parkour 2.0 Warframe up to where her mobility once again becomes distinctive and valuable.

[Dornam]

@SenorClipClop That's literally the point of this rework. She still has all of her abilities in their original form, with updated utility but they also become targetable and more useable in today's warframe to compete with parkour 2.0 mobility. Literally nothing was replaced in her kit, just moved around so that abilities that are mostly useless on their own become part of the same ability and reducing their energy cost to compensate for the fact that you need to cast tailwind (or bullet jump) and then dive bomb to make it do damage. Yes, I did "create" an ability for her channeled 1, but all I was going for was a steerable tailwind that you can actually fly with while still having the option to use her current horizontal tailwind by dodge rolling.

I suggested giving her a new ult to go with the tailwind and dive bomb changes, but alternatively, you could create a new 2nd ability and make the tornadoes useful like I and others have suggested, but also ramp up their damage so they're actually useful as an ultimate ability. Personally, I'm not a fan of keeping tornado as her ult because I'd rather see her have a more interactive ability for her ult, unlike tornadoes that are a set and forget.

[(XBOX)SneakyFortunis]

@Dornam no it was not me being serious and yes i know that you had several ideas for the 4th ability that being said you elected to give as your main proposition a weakened titanias ult for her 1. her origional ult mixed with vaubans ult as her 2. a buff to her 3 (the defense one which as is only blocks non-hitscan shots) and basically make her invulnerable except to the few melee units and dot clouds. additionally you suggested mainly making her 4 pharahs "justice rains from above" ability aka barrage and while i dont think barrage is a bad ability and would be fine with her or a new frame having that or something similar as an ult or even other ability (dependant upon how its specifics are run) you essentially suggested that she has 3 ultimates and something to make her basically invulnerable as long as she constantly keeps either 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 up and doesnt walk into damage clouds. i cant really offer advice on how the make it more inline powerwise due to the fact that someone with so much power and defence is basically broken just from a pencil and paper glance at it

[Dornam]

@(Xbox One)SneakyFortunis Her 1 is what allows her to fly, whether by using original tailwind and divebomb or the new utility for steered tailwind. If you choose to use the new 1, it's channeled, meaning that you'll eventually have to come down since you have no energy regen, but it gives her the option to be an actual bird. Her 1 is not even close to the power level of titania ult. All it does is let her fly, make her mobile, and dive bomb. No crazy good exalted weapon, no evasion other than what mobility gives every frame normally, and no razorwing drones.

Her 2 is not a package deal with vauban vortex, it only sucks in things it touches, like current tornado, it's just placeable and slightly larger, so that you can decide where you want it to suck up enemies. If anything I'd compare it to a placeable hydroid puddle, just with a limit to the capacity.

The only buff I actually want for turbulence is reduced energy cost so that she can actually use her abilities in tandem with her base energy pool and costs. Fixing the hitscan thing is literally a bug fix, not actually changing the ability. It's just that sometimes weird things happen with hitscan and turbulence, though I don't consider it all that important since it's still a good ability.

As for invulnerability between flying and turbulence:

1. Zephyr already has what you're describing in current turbulence: immunity to everything not melee or aoe; so I don't see this making anything different.
2. If you're flying with vanilla tailwind and dive bomb, there's no change in her vulnerability from current Zephyr.
3. If you're flying with vanilla tailwind and dive bomb and have turbulence on Zephyr is mostly immune now and with rework, so no change.
4. If you're flying with channeled 1, it'll be hard for anything to hit you, but at the same time you can't regain energy while flying, you'll have to come down eventually. I don't see any change from current Zephyr in this scenario anyway, mobility makes you tanky.
5. If you are flying with turbulence, yes, you'll be pretty much immune to most things, but at the same time, you're spending a lot of energy with all forms of regeneration disabled, meaning you can't keep it up for long; you'll have to come down eventually. I still don't see much change to her vulnerability from vanilla Zephyr in this scenario, just that flying is easier/more fun, but still limited.
6. If you're on the ground, all you've got is turbulence, no change in vulnerability from current Zephyr.

I'm not giving her overpowered abilities or anything like that. All I'm doing is shuffling everything to do with flight onto her 1 and passive, moving tornado to 2 and making it a single targetable tornado that stays in place and doesn't throw enemies everywhere, lowering energy cost of 3, and proposing new 4's. The kit is not intended for her to be invulnerable 100% of the time, it's constructed to give her tools for survivability, fun, flying, and a cohesive playstyle if you choose to use it. It's also got built in down time if you always fly because her 1 is channeled, so you can't perma-fly with it. Of course you can be mostly invulnerable with turbulence, but vanilla Zephyr can already do that, why change what's not broken?

Ultimately I'd love to see players get good enough with this kit to hop from tornado to tornado, utilizing her passive to fly around while dive bombing enemies in tornadoes and sometimes using fly to move around the map in conjunction with horizontal tailwind. Yes, that play style would be mostly invulnerable, but it would require skill and resource management while still being fun.

Does this further clarification of what the abilities do make her seem less "broken"? None of her abilities are there to make her invulnerable except turbulence, which is already a base part of her kit now.

[Huanthus]

 

On 1/23/2018 at 9:54 PM, Dornam said:

TL;DR

• Passive: improved maneuverability in air, massively increased aim glide time, slow fall, rolling is replaced by tailwind (like limbo dash, but much more range) and Zephyr doesn't lose momentum after dodge rolling (tailwind).

1. Fly with highly increased speed (3 energy/sec) with tight movement controls (no or very little inertia, unlike archwing). Allows unlimited bullet jumps and dodge rolls (tailwinds) while channeling at a cost of 3 energy per action and if her bullet jump is aimed up, the animation changes to ethereal energy wings appearing on her arms and flapping them once to gain height (vertical tailwind). Hold 1 to target an area on the ground, release to cast swooping talons (dive bomb, 10 energy). Melee slam attacking casts swooping talons (dive bomb) directly below Zephyr in addition to the slam attack (50% of aimed swooping talons energy cost since you can't aim it). Synergy: casting swooping talons (dive bomb) on a tornado will damage all enemies in and near the tornado, bounce her back up into the air, and resetting her bullet jump, aim glide, and dodge roll (tailwind).
2. Spawn tornado on target spot (50 energy). These new tornadoes don't move and instead of flinging enemies everywhere, they suck them in, pick them up, and hold them like Vauban vortex. Zephyr can either spawn a number (3?) of these tornadoes wherever she wants (like frost's snow globe, but summoned where she's aiming) or she can spawn 1 tornado, and move it by holding 4 (like augmented Chroma effigy: guided effigy), picking up all enemies in the path as it moves to the new place.*
3. Turbulence (50 energy), no changes needed other than maybe fixing its interaction with hitscan weapons, reducing the energy cost to fit her kit (explained below) and making it recastable while it's still active.
4. Either a "justice rains from above" type ability (10 energy/sec, high sustained dps) to carpet bomb enemies with wind while flying/gliding (Pharah's ultimate from Overwatch), a wind bomb that sucks in enemies before exploding (100 energy), or exalted weapon where she throws high damage wind grenades by clicking (5 energy/sec, high burst aoe damage with low fire rate).

Introduction

I've seen a few threads with different ideas being suggested for the upcoming Zephyr rework, so I thought that I'd throw my own ideas in. Some of these have some inspiration from other suggestions, but I'm just making an attempt at what I think would be a fun, cohesive kit for her.

To start off with, I'll say what I think Zephyr means to me: a highly mobile bird that gives you the tools to fly about and attack from above. In addition to this, she's also akin to an air elemental with control of the air currents. My ideas for her rework strives to give her the tools to be a queen of the skies that controls and guides the winds to victory while still being the bird that she is modeled after.

I know that there are still "Zephyr mains" out there that love all or some of her abilities as they are, but at the same time there are plenty of people that hate her entire kit (usually except turbulence) and say it should be scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up. So this is also an attempt to let the fans of her current kit keep the abilities that they know and love, but still improve their functionality and make them into useful tools while giving her a cohesive play style that both groups will like.

Current ability analysis

• Passive: Lightweight - This is kind of a divisive passive, many people seem to hate it and say it messes up their parkouring efficacy because of the change in fall speed while many others say that it is a core feature of the frame, adding character and, with a bit of skill, becoming a tool for pseudo-flight. I think that most of the people that don't like her passive are people that tried the frame and didn't like her (to be fair and honest, I don't like her in her current state). In contrast, I see that most of the people that really like her passive are the people that do play Zephyr even with all of her flaws and have practiced enough to make use of her passive. I personally agree with the latter in that it is definitely a good feature of the frame, even though I suck at using it to fly. I think it's still something that Zephyr should definitely keep, though it needs more than its current form to make her a true bird / wind elemental frame.

1. Tailwind - Yes, it's useful, but it's not worth 25 energy. The best utility this gives is the ability to dash/roll while in the air consecutively. With the advent of parkour 2.0, this ability became mostly obsolete; yes, you can use it to traverse PoE and do other fun things, but not much else. Casting it to jump in the air when on the ground can easily be replaced by a bullet jump, and using it to go places fast in the air can be easily done with a combination of bullet jumps, double jumps, and aim gliding (or spoiler mode). Additionally, using it for damage is not viable with the pitiful amount of damage it does, leaving us with a lackluster ability that costs 25 energy, even though it can be easily replaced by parkour moves that any frame can do. To all the diehard fans of Zephyr's current kit I will admit that you can get pseudo-flight with it through repeated castings... but how many maps is this useful on and is it really worth even 6.25 energy (with max efficiency) to dash through the air without being able to guide it other than choosing what direction it goes?
2. Dive bomb - It is useful, it does do ok-ish damage, but with slam attacks being available, it's not worth 25 energy in its current form. I agree with most people I have seen talking about this ability, it doesn't deserve its own ability slot dedicated to it and even then, in its current form it requires setup and positioning (or an extra 25 energy to tailwind first) to get more than mediocre damage from an ability that I consider on the power level of most frames first ability.
3. Turbulence - Considered by most people to be her only real viable ability, I would agree with this for the most part, recognizing how much energy it takes to use her 1 and 2 for such mediocre results (other than the fun of flying around). A pretty good all around ability and it can make her fairly tanky as long as hitscan projectiles don't bug out with it. If you add in the jet stream augment, it's even better, increasing your team's movement speed and projectile speed. Definitely an ability worth keeping around.
4. Tornado - Many people consider this her worst ability, myself included, because of how it flails the enemies around before throwing them all over the battlefield, making it so that you have to chase them around to kill them. I'm sure that there's some people out there that like this ability, though I'm not sure why, other than because it's fun. I do like the way you can change the damage type of it, but honestly it does so little damage it doesn't matter that much other than for the status proc type. In its current state it's one of the worst abilities in the game: it doesn't do enough damage to matter, it only temporarily crowd controls enemies, and then it makes you hunt for the enemies after throwing them all over the battlefield. Pretty much every crowd control ability in the game is better than it. Even an ability that makes enemies actively run away from you like Nekros' terrify has utility in reducing their armor and he also has an augment that slows them while they're feared, making it so you don't have to play hide and seek like you do with tornado. The augment for tornado does make it so that it doesn't toss enemies everywhere, but then all it's doing is mediocre damage and a few status procs, so not that great of an augment in my opinion. In addition, the tornado(es) are random and uncontrollable, so all you can do is hope that the AI for them does a good job.

Reworked abilities

• Lightweight - While airborne, Zephyr moves with much greater control and agility, allowing her to change direction while soaring. She also falls much slower and can aim glide for an extended time. Zephyr's dodge roll is replaced with a glide dash, damaging and knocking enemies aside.

Her passive would keep its current slow fall mechanic, but also add more maneuverability than her passive does currently while in the air and massively increased aim glide time (I know she a

Edited January 31, 2018 by Huanthus

[Dornam]

@Huanthus I'm not sure why you're quoting me twice or at all since you don't seem to talk about what you're quoting at all. I'm confused why you're making the points that you are, since it seems to have nothing to do with this conversation unless you're just telling me that my ideas are bad and your suggested ideas are all that zephyr needs to be complete. If you are, then I completely disagree with your two changes. Your proposed changes means that she needs to be in the middle of all the enemies when casting tailwind on the ground to drag them with her and then she needs to either let them fall or cast dive bomb to do increased damage. With her current kit, I don't see her being able to group enemies enough for that to be effective, and it's also risky running into melee range with Zephyr. If you're accounting for her dive bomb augment, then it's even worse: you have to cast dive bomb to gather enemies, then tailwind, then dive bomb again. Super awkward and a waste of energy. Having falling enemies  take % health damage is not a bad idea in itself, but your ideas of how to implement it are clunky and don't provide any meaningful changes to her. It would still be 1, 2 or 2, 1, 2 for a not very interesting kit since it doesn't really interact with your other abilities..

Your idea for tornado fusing isn't horrible... but it's still very clunky, I think being able to place them and place multiple or be able to move a single one would be a much more useful and interactive ability.

[Huanthus]

@Dornam Sorry  if it sounded like that, also the double quote problem  was a mistake i made  since i  answered from my phone and maybe missclicked somewhere , also i like your ideas, it is a great analysis and the ideas are great  but it might be hard to implement on DE's part so i thought  that a simpler change would be enough therefore my suggestions

Edited February 1, 2018 by Huanthus