after 4years of warframe.

[Lord-Nezekan]

I just want to share my thoughts about the current state of things and the upcoming changes specially on certain warframe abilities. I am not here to argue whether its a good or bad change because I know whether I agree or not its not my Decision.

I just wanna make this clear I do believe the game in its entirety is great and compared to other games out there it stands out and truly a game of its own. However as a Veteran player I always have this concern not just for me and for other Veterans out there I believe that as much as the game has changed the player base did also. I know that we as individuals are not forced to play the game I get that however it shouldn't be the reason to just ignore the case of working individuals who play the game. I used to be a student and just go to school and paly at home that's all good back then but now that I have graduated and pursuing my Graduate studies and having a work during the day grinding for extended period of hours is rather impossible. I know some would say then don't play and focus your study but S#&$ lets not be a Hippocrates we all do enjoy some me time even if its just an hour or two hell some of us would even go out on a party even knowing there is an exam on the next day so lets just keep it real.

My point is that all this nerfs in general are for the  things players discovered and developed exactly to speed or make it more bearable at the very least the grinding process. I don't see the point why would they change something that was introduced so long ago so drastic just because players find it to be very useful and effective? I remembered before when saryn was built for power and they reworked her my saryn got 6 formas on it and they didn't refund that to me, back then I take it &#! my fault that I assumed that was the perfect build for her, However seeing it now that it has become a trend I think its deceitful. This players spend time and resources, some may argue that re-leveling a formaed item will take you just this and that mins, but that is not the point the fact is you still spend the time and the resources besides party isn't always available it depends on your location and the time you play there are times when just looking for a squad would take you 30mins and for someone who has a family or a job and can only spare an hour or 2 that's a lot of wasted time and FYI My saryn 6 froma wasnt leveled in hydron or bere not even in draco it was leveled way way back years ago and not just her most of my old weapons like gorgon has 6 my ogris got 8 and so much more. I am not blaming them for my decisions however they should not ignore such fact that all you get in reality is a polarity and nothing else, no Mr. Exp, hell that OP weapon you just made it doesn't even help in leveling your other weapons so what is it good for a bloody focus farm is it ? we will talk about that later.

The point is people invest in this things to just TAG something effective and efficient as OP and demands a nerf is not only ridiculous but unfair. Just this morning I had this M.R.11 in my squad, I am not belittling the guy for his M.R. but as a vet I have more or less gauge his Item acquisition base on his rank. He asked me if he was to be banshee as dps is 125% power enough and so I said no around 150-175 at the very least. I elaborated that it wasn't the only thing to consider in his build so, I told him my build for my banshee exp farm, and he responded "oh guess ill do dps next time I have so much missing mods". What was the point here ? this is for the new players or to those ignorant ones who just complain or put a tag on something as OP you should consider the amount of time and investment it takes for that warframe or weapon to be that efficient ? Here in this case we can totally agree that a new player has to farm the, then mods level the mods , and then forma the frame just for it to be effective. I just use banshee as an example but I hope to anyone reading this to see it the logic applies to most frames and weapons. I do believe that the game in its inception wants to give its player that sense of power that's why its heavily focused on pve, I do recall during the devstream before the release and introduction of corrupted mods that they want players to build their warframes and weapons in a way that is kind of unique in the sense of maximizing a certain stat while sacrificing another, I just want to point out that this builds that we see now this is the product of that so why in the world are they being changed? well I have an answer in my head but I dont think anyone wants to hear it besides all this stuff I mentioned is just my opinion.

Last thing, Dear DEVS

If you could just kindly consider this has always bugged me ever since the focus cap, btw I do get its supposed to be an end content thing and all but just consider this we have a cap on it right ? why don't we make it a little easier for players like instead of the 1.6 to 2. something % from normal lens to eidolon lens why don't we make it 4 then 8 then 12%. I would say 100% but I know you would think I'm kidding and its absurd so I thought why not 4-12%.

Here are my reasons:

first of all we got a daily cap so no one will get more than their cap right ?

2nd isn't it that its based on mastery rank right ? so in essence a higher Mr. can farm more in a day than lower Mr. in short by increasing the gains of focus wont hurt the purpose of giving Mastery Rank some end game value correct ?

3rd you want us to stop cheesing our way to farming focus ? then why don't you just remove the need for us to cheeze it in the first place. I have to elaborate on this one thing is The way I see it is that when we forma a weapon The idea is to increase mods slots and ultimately make it so good same goes for warframe now wouldn't it be rewarding for any palyer who invest in his favorite weapon or warframe regardless what it is if he can finish his daily focus cap just playing other modes or while farming other stuff that obviously gain exp unless you got some better ideas while using that same weapon or warframe without having to specifically build something to cheeze that focus grind. I mean come on think about it cause normally for new palyers they would run around doing missions with unranked or unmaxed weapons / frames but for those who hit a wall example no slots yet or pending crafting or those who just doesn't have anything else to build. why is this helpful it can help get rid of that meta mentality cause you get to finsih the focus even while  helping your clanmates.

4th just as I mention it will help in promoting a good community of palyers you see Ive noticed this ever sicne the focus I lost the time to help my lowbie clanmates and friends simply because by the time Im done farming they are eithr bored or just done playing. Because lets put our superiority complex aside we have to admit that farming this focus even when cheesing it without booster is a damn hassle and takes alot of time even with party or that perfect solo spider equinox run that ofc some runs arent perfect and if you are to complete 250k focus a day GOD DAMN. I get that this is for us to buy boosters but honestly even with boosters i feel it too be still too long and grindy and honsetly grinding it is kind of frustrating.

5th we can reduce if not eliminate toxic players cause in my experience other than raid the most toxic players I encounter them in exp grind they want that oh so perfect exp grind with perfect range perfect kills and perfect buff, but in life its not always perfect and this guys just doesn't understand that and demands perfection from others and obviously its the newplayers that receive this harsh treatment, so why don't we make the community of warframe an even better place just try to consider my suggestion or improve if you can.

Well I know its lengthy but this is the only time I have a drive to speak my mind so I just took it.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Xeks69

[Entharias]

Play*

Also, i tried to read what you wrote, but the whole thing is a mess of words and nonsense.
No offense.

[LSG501]

6 minutes ago, Xeks69 said:

 

If you could just kindly consider this has always bugged me ever since the focus cap, btw I do get its supposed to be an end content thing and all but just consider this we have a cap on it right ? why don't we make it a little easier for players like instead of the 1.6 to 2. something % from normal lens to eidolon lens why don't we make it 4 then 8 then 12%. I would say 100% but I know you would think I'm kidding and its absurd so I thought why not 4-12%.

Players have been asking for a better base percentage from focus lenses for ages along with removal of the yellow orbs but for whatever reason DE fixated on forcing us to grab the yellow orbs because last time they talked about the revisions they were still staying in the game....

No one I know wants the yellow focus orbs, we'd all just prefer a higher base focus, hell most of the people I've talked to in my clan would have preferred a central pool of focus points for all 5 schools but nope, DE is still forcing us to do 5 different focus schools via their own individual lenses, which is considerably more grindy than one big pool....and don't even get me started on the need for a capacity which takes away focus standing from the important stuff. 

Sometimes DE needs to stop being so stubborn and actually listen to the players a bit more, we often know what needs to be fixed and how to fix it better than they do...

[Lord-Nezekan]

yeah its hard to type in my phone but I edited it just awhile ago hope it helps if not well I tried.

[Lord-Nezekan]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

Players have been asking for a better base percentage from focus lenses for ages along with removal of the yellow orbs but for whatever reason DE fixated on forcing us to grab the yellow orbs because last time they talked about the revisions they were still staying in the game....

No one I know wants the yellow focus orbs, we'd all just prefer a higher base focus, hell most of the people I've talked to in my clan would have preferred a central pool of focus points for all 5 schools but nope, DE is still forcing us to do 5 different focus schools via their own individual lenses, which is considerably more grindy than one big pool....and don't even get me started on the need for a capacity which takes away focus standing from the important stuff. 

Sometimes DE needs to stop being so stubborn and actually listen to the players a bit more, we often know what needs to be fixed and how to fix it better than they do...

I think its understandable to create demand for plat by having something such as focus trees to use them on, but what I dont get is that super low % gain if you ask me since a weapon is maxed it should be 25 50 and 100 cause after all you have a cap every day. No ones is getting any dvantage what so ever + if its easy to farm low ranks will aim to have higher mastery rank, for example myself who ony have an hours or 2 to spare damn i cant even finish that 250k a day if I happened to be rank 12 or 13 with 130k or so then I wouldn't even bother increasing my daily cap cause I know I cant even finish it.

[DissentWomble]

I agree. Seriously we need to nerf Volt Prime. He gives his speed boosts willy nilly making my timing off and I keep falling off areas cause of it. Especially on those Grineer acid stages with plenty of bridges and yellow goo polution around.

[TheDemon117]

21 minutes ago, kambinks said:

I agree. Seriously we need to nerf Volt Prime. He gives his speed boosts willy nilly making my timing off and I keep falling off areas cause of it. Especially on those Grineer acid stages with plenty of bridges and yellow goo polution around.

If you do a backflip you get rid of the buff or you could git gud and learn to control it.

[xXDeadsinxX]

22 minutes ago, kambinks said:

I agree. Seriously we need to nerf Volt Prime. He gives his speed boosts willy nilly making my timing off and I keep falling off areas cause of it. Especially on those Grineer acid stages with plenty of bridges and yellow goo polution around.

You can OPT out of the ability with doing a back flip while aiming.

[DissentWomble]

Wow thanks! Its been annoying me for soo long.

[MBaldelli]

I find myself in a tough position after reading your missive, @Xeks69.  As a veteran like myself, you know that this game is constantly in development in some way or another.  You of all people should remember the "fun" we used to have with limited ammo, the differences in ambient and environmental sounds and sound effects.  The challenges of hitscan from Grineer when their bullets used to turn corners in order to 100% hit Warframes during missions.  Practically rage quitting (to actually rage quitting) when Infested Chargers and Ancients used to stun lock us to death on missions.  And that's just scratching the surface about all the changes -- good and bad -- that have occurred in the time since we've joined the game.  So you of all people should be well familiar that not all changes and reworks happen instantaneously.  Some are done over the course of years.  Like Ash for example.  Banshee and Ember next.  However, what gets me most is this:

43 minutes ago, Xeks69 said:

I remembered before when saryn was build for power and they reworked her my saryn got 6 formas on it and they didnt refund that to me ok well then thats find guess its my fault that I assumed that was the perfect build for her

It's not like when we joined the game and had to buy forma.  We get them from relics, daily login rewards, battle pay for invasions, alerts, Reinforced Orokin storage containers just to name the ones I remember off the top of my head.  

You of all people should remember Forma_Addict and his 100 forma creations...  Why should DE refund your forma work after they have reworked something -- often for the better of a team instead of just for solo -- when we have players like him dropping 100 forma on things that have changed through the game?  Because your money is hard earned?

55 minutes ago, Xeks69 said:

The point is people invest in this things to just TAG something effective and efficient as OP and demands a nerf is not only ridiculous but unfair

Since when should a game allow OP anything; if it's aiming in its actions and mission statement to being fair and balanced?  I find myself often jumping on this complaining bandwagon, but I think it's more because what isn't known about the changes and haven't had the time to actually research those changes.  I admit, I'm lazy.  When I get home after a long day's work, I don't always have the time to do the research.  However, if I were to base my history on these changes coupled with the number crunching I have done , I have to say that since Vivergate, DE has learned their lesson about knee-jerk responses and often give something when they take something away in a reworking.  

Further, patching is not perfect..  Never has been in any business environment.  Using a recent changes to the Simulor line of weapons comes readily to mind.  As a PC player, you know that it is our obligation to reported when something is not working as expected within the game and the rework and then have to wait until it has been applied.  

Again, this game is constantly in development.  

1 hour ago, Xeks69 said:

this is for the new players or to those ignorant ones who just complain or put a tag on something as OP you should consider the amount of time and investment it takes for that warframe or weapon to be that efficient ?

The plain and simple fact is that people will complain.  Be they a new player or someone around here as long as we have been around since closed and open beta.  People are lazy by nature.  They often hate change.  And when that change seems drastic and goes against that laziness and no longer caters to the absolute power of being a god in the game -- come into the forums to whinge up storms about losing those abilities of being that gaming god their ego thinks they should be.  

But please.  Don't got trying to masquerade your gripes with the altruism of "it's for the new players".  You have the experience.  Use it.  

[LSG501]

51 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

You of all people should remember Forma_Addict and his 100 forma creations...  Why should DE refund your forma work after they have reworked something -- often for the better of a team instead of just for solo -- when we have players like him dropping 100 forma on things that have changed through the game?  Because your money is hard earned?

As with all aspects of this game, DE should be removing the 'outliers' who go to extreme from any analysis and be looking at the 'average' player.  If you base things on 'meta farming' and players who clearly have an issue with using forma for no reason we end up getting situations like we've had with focus when it was reworked and the prices then needed to be lowered (still too high in some aspects imo) and the focus gain system (assuming it's still going ahead) needed to be changed. 

 

I don't think any new player would expect to be at the same level as a 'veteran', and I wouldn't be surprised if many newbies came in and had the same view as me when they see how veterans can work together with different frames. 

I remember doing a corpus defence when I was a newbies and I was just like...oooh look at all the pretty colours etc as all the vets used their abilities and I didn't care that I didn't get all the kills, my thoughts were, I wonder what they're using (and asked in chat where the vets were more than willing to be helpful I might add) and it gave me something to aim for.  Mind you I came in nearly 2 years ago and didn't come in expecting to be an uber player within a  week like some of the newbies do now, it took me time to level up to where I am now (although I do wish at times some of the grind could be reduced)

Edited February 6, 2018 by LSG501

[Lord-Nezekan]

7 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

I find myself in a tough position after reading your missive, @Xeks69.  As a veteran like myself, you know that this game is constantly in development in some way or another.  You of all people should remember the "fun" we used to have with limited ammo, the differences in ambient and environmental sounds and sound effects.  The challenges of hitscan from Grineer when their bullets used to turn corners in order to 100% hit Warframes during missions.  Practically rage quitting (to actually rage quitting) when Infested Chargers and Ancients used to stun lock us to death on missions.  And that's just scratching the surface about all the changes -- good and bad -- that have occurred in the time since we've joined the game.  So you of all people should be well familiar that not all changes and reworks happen instantaneously.  Some are done over the course of years.  Like Ash for example.  Banshee and Ember next.  However, what gets me most is this:

 

I would have to disagree on that just because its tolerated doesn't mean its good or its ok. There is no argument about the changes it does take time ofc but because it does shouldn't be bit more careful in releasing there is such a principle called vested rights you know. Just because they can change it doesn't mean they should all the time like this youtube said it should be subject to community vote if its already released that way they should be more careful in releasing content specially when they know its broken just like chroma buff.

 

 

17 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

@Xeks69

It's not like when we joined the game and had to buy forma.  We get them from relics, daily login rewards, battle pay for invasions, alerts, Reinforced Orokin storage containers just to name the ones I remember off the top of my head.  

You of all people should remember Forma_Addict and his 100 forma creations...  Why should DE refund your forma work after they have reworked something -- often for the better of a team instead of just for solo -- when we have players like him dropping 100 forma on things that have changed through the game?  Because your money is hard earned?

 

FYI not everyone is like him there was a time when I was new and I had to upgrade my clan dojo and spent plats to buy forma and rush building and even if I used farmed formas, just because it can be farmed it doesn't mean it has no value what about the time I have spent hunting forma instead of  something else. I dont know about you but I give time a high value after all even our life in this world is limited so is the saying time is gold.

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

@Xeks69

Since when should a game allow OP anything; if it's aiming in its actions and mission statement to being fair and balanced?  I find myself often jumping on this complaining bandwagon, but I think it's more because what isn't known about the changes and haven't had the time to actually research those changes.  I admit, I'm lazy.  When I get home after a long day's work, I don't always have the time to do the research.  However, if I were to base my history on these changes coupled with the number crunching I have done , I have to say that since Vivergate, DE has learned their lesson about knee-jerk responses and often give something when they take something away in a reworking.  

Further, patching is not perfect..  Never has been in any business environment.  Using a recent changes to the Simulor line of weapons comes readily to mind.  As a PC player, you know that it is our obligation to reported when something is not working as expected within the game and the rework and then have to wait until it has been applied.  

Again, this game is constantly in development. 

Again you missed the point its the concept of an OVER POWERED ITEM. I have a question for you if you put all mods lets say in your arca plasmor max and primed lets even add some perfectly rolled riven and then it hits enemies level one with 1 damage is that OP ? Is it not but logical that a weapon or an item that is heavily invested in should perform excellent if not well ? because the point here is to determine if an Item is OP there should be a standard that is what is missing that is why I said we should consider 1st how much a palyer or the weapon it self requires to be that good. Cause the way I see it there alot of under powered weapons than OP because if we compare tonkor which was nerfed to the ground and the new arca plasmor and Lenz  hits even harder isn't it that these new weapons are OP ? still they released them so what can we infer from this scenario it means that it is tolerable the said damage and power of this item are within the standard is that it ? They call ember OP when she struggles and dies almost instantly in high level ? or do they mean easy to use ?. I am sorry but my training in school was to question what I see be analytical rather than to just accept things as it is. To me you cant compare a level 1 to level 100 and call the level 100 op there should be a standard and if you argue that the past tonkor is so OP man just compare lenz to all the bows in the game surely its ammo pool problem is nothing compared to its effectiveness. Note that I call it OP in comparison to other bows and to tonkor here i have a standard that I based it on.

Also the development thing should never be an excuse. There is a big difference between a bug fix and a total rework that gives nerf. about that taking soemthing away and giving something back ? what if i take your house and give you a pile of dirt in replacement ? you should ought to know that somethings are irreplaceable and even in a game standpoint would you take it that incase of focus rework all your focus points were replaced with credits ? obviously not right so dont give me that kind of reasoning is totally flawed.

48 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

@Xeks69

The plain and simple fact is that people will complain.  Be they a new player or someone around here as long as we have been around since closed and open beta.  People are lazy by nature.  They often hate change.  And when that change seems drastic and goes against that laziness and no longer caters to the absolute power of being a god in the game -- come into the forums to whinge up storms about losing those abilities of being that gaming god their ego thinks they should be.  

But please.  Don't got trying to masquerade your gripes with the altruism of "it's for the new players".  You have the experience.  Use it.  

WOW IDK about you man we can be lazy but I dont believe People are born lazy don't lump others to your Idea about yourself. again you missed the point the phrase for "for the new palyers" I mean for them to understand and consider before complaining and you Think that all I have said is for new palyers ? like I said I know this wouldn't do much I know that for a fact I just want to state what was on my mind about the game. Also its not about gaming god crap that again your idea about yourself all that I was pointing out is that people invest time in the game resources even and isn't it expected that when you invest on something you expect for a return and in the case of a game its satisfaction, so how can anyone who invested on something that later on turns out to be a garbage a satisfactory experience huh ? tell me if you will be satisfied after paying 100$ for a coffee and it turns out to be a melted feces in a cup are you gonna be happy ? though I know you'd probably eat that just kidding. ^_^

[MBaldelli]

20 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

As with all aspects of this game, DE should be removing the 'outliers' who go to extreme from any analysis and be looking at the 'average' player.  If you base things on 'meta farming' and players who clearly have an issue with using forma for no reason we end up getting situations like we've had with focus when it was reworked and the prices then needed to be lowered (still too high in some aspects imo) and the focus gain system (assuming it's still going ahead) needed to be changed. 

I don't think any new player would expect to be at the same level as a 'veteran', and I wouldn't be surprised if many newbies came in and had the same view as me when they see how veterans can work together with different frames. 

I remember doing a corpus defence when I was a newbies and I was just like...oooh look at all the pretty colours etc as all the vets used their abilities and I didn't care that I didn't get all the kills, my thoughts were, I wonder what they're using (and asked in chat where the vets were more than willing to be helpful I might add) and it gave me something to aim for.  Mind you I came in nearly 2 years ago and didn't come in expecting to be an uber player within a  week like some of the newbies do now, it took me time to level up to where I am now (although I do wish at times some of the grind could be reduced)

The first problem has to do with the fact that people like Forma_Addict and others took advantage of what's already there and provided more than adequate proof  -- to both the player base as well as the developers -- that players have the ability to change weapons and polarizations based on any rework that DE seems should be done.  So such outliers should be removed why?  Because truth is now inconvenient to the argument?  Sorry, I can not and will not accept it when I have stated flat out human laziness and human nature resisting change is why this noise is being created in several threads since the announcement of the rework.  

The fact is that unless you're a hardcore gamer -- and I do remember those hardcore gamers even back in 2014 that were complaining that the game was too easy and wanted hardcore challenges -- we are often overwhelmed with the steep learning curve that this game has to offer.  However, ignorance and sloth do not make anyone -- veteran and new players -- immune to changes.  And no amount of noise and friction to the contrary will change it. 

So far I haven't seen anything about this change -- just a lot of noise about the potential change.  Make the pointy-haired manager in me sit up and read.  Give numbers, examples, and potential ways Ember's rework will be detrimental to the game play.   Because what the pointy-haired manager is currently seeing in this thread (asd well as a whole lot of threads that are coming up since it's been announced) is a whole lot of whinging and personal conjecture.  There are no projected numbers. 

Because if you can get the pointy-haired manager in me to sit up and read, DE will as well.  That was proven with Damage 2.5 which was tabled for a better rework.  

The current argument is that halving the range and doubling the drain will cause Ember to run with the team instead of running to extraction completely ignoring everyone and with the enemies ending up as bits of charcoal on the floor.  There is a counter to this -- it's slim and deals with Ember's armour and survivability even in a close quarters team..  But I guarantee it will need to be play-tested first.  

That includes you @Xeks69. you need to provide numbers and not conjecture or personal perspective.  I showed you how personal conjecture can be used as a means to disable the debate you were trying to establish.  The fact is, laziness is one of those incendiary words that will cause people to go on the defensive.  It's a double-edged sword where benefits can come out of laziness as well as limitations. 

As an aside, I happen to know that I'm a hell of a worker..  I have awards of appreciation and doctrines written about my work ethic.  I still consider myself lazy because I try to find shortcuts to established policies.  There have been several articles that cover it's not bad to be lazy and thanks to some of them, I don't feel guilty when I admit to being lazy.  Neither should you feel I'm slighting you in a human condition that is positive even if has negatives.  

However, your original posting and your rebuke my response shows that your motivations aren't enough to convince them -- DE -- that it might be the wrong direction.  It's too personal and lacks something about team play and statistics.  

@Xeks69 You of all people know that such changes in this game are ever arbitrary.  We have the community contributors and the Design Council.  It's as much a game of procedures as it is of politics.  I haven't caught any of the Design Council that speak publicly that this is bad.  And the one that has is often driven by satire as she is ascerbic humour.  And I'm finding myself hard pressed to take her as serious at the moment.  

1 hour ago, Xeks69 said:

I have a question for you if you put all mods lets say in your arca plasmor max and primed lets even add some perfectly rolled riven and then it hits enemies level one with 1 damage is that OP ?

Absolutely it is, overpowered.  I'm decimating a room with only 3 reloads.  However, as one player I can't see that being a problem.  I do see it becoming a problem when 50,000 players copy my build and do the same thing with it.  And if DE makes the decision to rework it in some way, who's fault does ie become?  Mine?  Or the 50,000 players that copied it?  

Tonkor nerfed to the ground?  I can still use the Tonkor quite effectively.  Like the Lenz however, I don't play with it in groups given the chance of self-damage is greater than I want to pay.   Your question is emotionally motivated.  And subsequent questions asked as well.

I would answer the rest, however I have provided sufficient proof that this posting isn't about change and whether it's good or bad, but instead personal bias that goes against what you prefer staying put...  I have given you a challenge with @LSG501.  Work with it.  Who knows?  With sufficient work there, perhaps you might be able to change the tide.  

[Lord-Nezekan]

37 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

@Xeks69

@Xeks69

Absolutely it is, overpowered.  I'm decimating a room with only 3 reloads.  However, as one player I can't see that being a problem.  I do see it becoming a problem when 50,000 players copy my build and do the same thing with it.  And if DE makes the decision to rework it in some way, who's fault does ie become?  Mine?  Or the 50,000 players that copied it?  

Tonkor nerfed to the ground?  I can still use the Tonkor quite effectively.  Like the Lenz however, I don't play with it in groups given the chance of self-damage is greater than I want to pay.   Your question is emotionally motivated.  And subsequent questions asked as well.

I would answer the rest, however I have provided sufficient proof that this posting isn't about change and whether it's good or bad, but instead personal bias that goes against what you prefer staying put...  I have given you a challenge with @LSG501.  Work with it.  Who knows?  With sufficient work there, perhaps you might be able to change the tide.  

wow so who now has that what is that you say again ? GOD GAMER complex thing ? clearly you are cause you think a build is exclusive to you ? did you patent the build is it even yours to begin with ? The biggest bull S#&$ I have ever heard off. IF there is anything wrong its you I can see it now your those guys that if I cant enjoy this then none will. That kind of mentality brings disorder into this world that is the most selfish thing and the dumbest thing you know people are social beings and its the inevitable consequence of exposure hell even Plato new that at a young age a child can mimic his parent. Just because 50,000 people coppied it means they are wrong ? ahahaha s you are wrong cause everything that you learned and read assuming you read from your prep to your college there are probably million people who read and probably did the same thing ? so cooking recepies are wrong cause people coppied it ? ahahahah wow just wow.

[Lord-Nezekan]

54 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

That includes you @Xeks69. you need to provide numbers and not conjecture or personal perspective.  I showed you how personal conjecture can be used as a means to disable the debate you were trying to establish.  The fact is, laziness is one of those incendiary words that will cause people to go on the defensive.  It's a double-edged sword where benefits can come out of laziness as well as limitations. 

As an aside, I happen to know that I'm a hell of a worker..  I have awards of appreciation and doctrines written about my work ethic.  I still consider myself lazy because I try to find shortcuts to established policies.  There have been several articles that cover it's not bad to be lazy and thanks to some of them, I don't feel guilty when I admit to being lazy.  Neither should you feel I'm slighting you in a human condition that is positive even if has negatives.  

However, your original posting and your rebuke my response shows that your motivations aren't enough to convince them -- DE -- that it might be the wrong direction.  It's too personal and lacks something about team play and statistics.  

@Xeks69 You of all people know that such changes in this game are ever arbitrary.  We have the community contributors and the Design Council.  It's as much a game of procedures as it is of politics.  I haven't caught any of the Design Council that speak publicly that this is bad.  And the one that has is often driven by satire as she is ascerbic humour.  And I'm finding myself hard pressed to take her as serious at the moment.  

@LSG501

dude no one is trying to convince them and certainly I don't, I was stating my opinion did you not read that from the beginning  also since when is it wrong to voice out your opinion its what the forum is about right ? Even if it doesn't make a change whats wrong if I don't agree? the only suggestion I gave was about the focus gains to increase and that's all. Also like I said that's what you think of yourself don't lump others to your idea of yourself. Work hard ? do you even know where others live ? have you tried to live in a third world country ? Dude not everyone has the same circumstances in life I hope you get that to your ignorant mind. And there is nothing wrong in finding shortcuts and making it efficient to you as long as no one else and nothing else is put at risk. Also i did say people can be lazy there is a big difference between that and inherently lazy.

What made you think that they have all the right because they bought founders pack ? hell some of those just bought once and that's it. They aren't the ones who keeps the game alive you know its the whole community if no one buys anything do you think the game would survive do you think their 1 time purchase is what kept the game growing ? you are damn delusional just like any business I would consider anyone who invested or purchased with real money whether its the founders pack or the lowest plat package as a customer and as a customer we are entitled to our opinion.

[MBaldelli]

26 minutes ago, Xeks69 said:

wow so who now has that what is that you say again ? GOD GAMER complex thing ? clearly you are cause you think a build is exclusive to you ? did you patent the build is it even yours to begin with ? The biggest bull S#&$ I have ever heard off. IF there is anything wrong its you I can see it now your those guys that if I cant enjoy this then none will. That kind of mentality brings disorder into this world that is the most selfish thing and the dumbest thing you know people are social beings and its the inevitable consequence of exposure hell even Plato new that at a young age a child can mimic his parent. Just because 50,000 people coppied it means they are wrong ? ahahaha s you are wrong cause everything that you learned and read assuming you read from your prep to your college there are probably million people who read and probably did the same thing ? so cooking recepies are wrong cause people coppied it ? ahahahah wow just wow.

If you feel I'm slighting you, I'll apologize forthwith.   You can twist the words however you want.  I stated an answer based on the parameters of the question and that question was lacking good information and working on way too many straw man assumptions.  

I learned this from experience -- one person that has one god-gamer build can often escape detection from developers.   They might even turn a blind eye if there was no cheating involved.  Like the awards they gave to Forma_Addict by the mail in real time developers -- like DE -- can even give such people a pat on the back as an attaboy. 

So allow me to counter-question you.  When does that god-build become an issue to the overall game experience?  At the level of one single person?  Or More?  When should the developers step in and say, "enough is enough.  This needs to be fixed?"

The fact is, if you think DE is not collecting and correlating megabytes of data based on damage, builds and so on from we players in the PC as well as the Xbox One and PS4 environments...  You being quite naive.  They stated flat out that these reworks were based on this data and improvements are in the works. This isn't something that was decided upon willy-nilly-- and knee-jerk -- like they did during Viver and that Loot Cave for Syndicates.  These are based on data.  

You tell me whether cooking recipes is wrong...  We're looking at what happened when too many people copied it.  That's right!  Ember's getting a rework.  And a lot of people -- you included -- are not happy about the changes.  

Is it wrong that there's a rework?  Or is this an opportunity to prove them wrong and perhaps build something new?  Because based on my experience in project leadership, I firmly stand behind the second question, not the first.  

Good lord, am I reading this right? 

3 minutes ago, Xeks69 said:

What made you think that they have all the right because they bought founders pack?

Because DE stated -- as an agreement -- they were given that right.  

Edited February 6, 2018 by MBaldelli

[Lord-Nezekan]

29 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

If you feel I'm slighting you, I'll apologize forthwith.   You can twist the words however you want.  I stated an answer based on the parameters of the question and that question was lacking good information and working on way too many straw man assumptions.  

I learned this from experience -- one person that has one god-gamer build can often escape detection from developers.   They might even turn a blind eye if there was no cheating involved.  Like the awards they gave to Forma_Addict by the mail in real time developers -- like DE -- can even give such people a pat on the back as an attaboy. 

So allow me to counter-question you.  When does that god-build become an issue to the overall game experience?  At the level of one single person?  Or More?  When should the developers step in and say, "enough is enough.  This needs to be fixed?"

The fact is, if you think DE is not collecting and correlating megabytes of data based on damage, builds and so on from we players in the PC as well as the Xbox One and PS4 environments...  You being quite naive.  They stated flat out that these reworks were based on this data and improvements are in the works. This isn't something that was decided upon willy-nilly-- and knee-jerk -- like they did during Viver and that Loot Cave for Syndicates.  These are based on data.  

You tell me whether cooking recipes is wrong...  We're looking at what happened when too many people copied it.  That's right!  Ember's getting a rework.  And a lot of people -- you included -- are not happy about the changes.  

Is it wrong that there's a rework?  Or is this an opportunity to prove them wrong and perhaps build something new?  Because based on my experience in project leadership, I firmly stand behind the second question, not the first.  

precisely why I don't agree why do you allow people to invest time and resources 1st before you calculate and fix something you probably knew was broken again chroma buff eas an xample. They knew it was broken but they just let it. and FYI i don't give a damn about ember like I said weak in high level what am I suppose to do with her ? lol she's not even wanted in raids. and to your question rework in general no but yes there is something we call prospective application of law which means you don't get punished for an act declared criminally punishable after you have already committed it. So yeah if a your asking me that after we specifically modify every polarity of a warframe to a certain build that was long existing only to be ruined by a rework hell no it should be subject to the vote of everyone concerned.

Also why is it wrong that too many people coppied ? the build is wrong is that it ? isnt it the purpouse of building your own setup ? I dont get it really cause as far as I know trin was always built as a bless or as ev is it wrong ? should we turn her into dps frame ?

You see they say its balancing but how can there be a balance if you make things that inherently different from one another ? Cause the way I see it this is never gonna end if that is your argument. If you want balance then just make a game like counterstrike everything is the same for everyone. no builds, no powers, cause this is rubbish do you even expect trin to dps or ash to heal ? if you are telling me cause that you can instantly clear a room hell yeah if its lowbie or mid level mobs can you clear lvl 300 mobs in one shot  ?

Mob scaling is ridiculous and there are tons of weak weapons and when people all use the most efficient one then you say its a problem, god damn why don't they just make same stats for every warframe and weapons in the game if they like balancing. you see its the price of diversity things will never be equal in same regards cause they are different from the very beginning.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Xeks69

[Lord-Nezekan]

20 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

Because DE stated -- as an agreement -- they were given that right.  

to be the member and part of the council not to rule the game like presidents and monarchs.

[MBaldelli]

4 minutes ago, Xeks69 said:

precisely why I don't agree why do you allow people to invest time and resources 1st before you calculate and fix something you probably knew was broken again chroma buff eas an xample. They knew it was broken but they just let it. and FYI i don't give a damn about ember like I said weak in high level what am I suppose to do with her ? lol she's not even wanted in raids. and to your question rework in general no but yes there is something we call prospective application of law which means you don't get punished for an act declared criminally punishable after you have already committed it. So yeah if a your asking me that after we specifically modify every polarity of a warframe to a certain build that was long existing only to be ruined by a rework hell no it should be subject to the vote of everyone concerned.

How big a design team does DE have for this game?  How many of them are dedicated to the code?  I'm wagering there's a small group of people.  I get the distinct impression that who we see in the dev streams and running the prime time streams are the key people on this project.  And I know one of them was dedicated to another project not too long ago.  And that's small.. 

Do you think that many people can change things instantaneously?  Really?  Even with a bigger team, it takes time to turn things.  Take a look at other AAA games who do have the manpower to do what you're implying in this takes them how long?  And even when they try, it fails because of GIGO. 

I'm going to suggest a break from this.  I feel like your perceptions on these issues are either too close to home, or you're lacking in some field (of expertise) to fully work with what's been right in front of you since we joined the game.  

9 minutes ago, Xeks69 said:

Also why is it wrong that too many people coppied ? the build is wrong is that it ? isnt it the purpouse of building your own setup ? I dont get it really cause as far as I know trin was always built as a bless or as ev is it wrong ? should we turn her into dps frame ?

Are you asking for my personal perspective?  My work ethic?  Or DE's?  

The problem is that you're not building your own set up.  You personally might have -- and upon success that build was shared it with 50,000 people (round number, grabbed from the air, but you get what I imply).  Is that your own build anymore or something carbon copied?  Is it enhancing the gaming experience for everyone, or is it just proof of special snowflake syndrome ignoring a team effort in order for you to complete the objective?  That those three other squad members are made superfluous because you killed everything from start to finish.  

These are the moral questions that DE had to have asked in some capacity before they decided, "yep, this needs to be stopped."  

I don't imply that this might be the right choice to fix things.  In anything, if it's wrong then we as PC players have the obligation to report what's wrong with it.  However, unlike Damage 2.5 where I did see several on the design council and even the community contributors point out the absolute shortcomings of that revised damage system.  Enough that I didn't need to add any opinion to it and let their words serve their purpose.  

It got tabled.  I'm hoping when it returns it's not as clapped out as 2.5 or even Damage 3.0 which had been suggested years ago.  If it is resubmitted, I'll be checking who's saying what and if that fails, I will contribute.  Until then though, I prefer to focus on what I do best.  Graphical and Environmental Glitching that occurs in the game.  

Ember's rework?  All I've seen is whinging at the unknown.  With the preliminary submissions about her rework from DE, I see no shortcomings from the start.  On paper, it looks more team oriented.  Whether this is true or not remains in the realm of guesswork and theorycraft.  Only real-time testing will prove whether it's a shortcoming or not.  

Oh and Ember's a Mage-frame.  All her DPS is in the realm of fire and magic.  She lacks armour for fighting.  She lacks strength for hand-to-hand (like Valkyr).  Again, I posed the challenge to you, and I'll post it again: 

The current argument is that halving the range and doubling the drain will cause Ember to run with the team instead of running to extraction completely ignoring everyone and with the enemies ending up as bits of charcoal on the floor.  There is a counter to this -- it's slim and deals with Ember's armour and survivability even in a close quarters team.. 

If I missed something in that challenge, do be sure to point it out.  

26 minutes ago, Xeks69 said:

You see they say its balancing but how can there be a balance if you make things that inherently different from one another ?

When's the last time you actually ran with a max strength and max range Ember?  I did this during a sortie (last night) and she was mopping the floor in an eximus stronghold.  Doubly so with a Max Range SloVa.  I personally didn't mind the fact that as a Rage Nidus, I just had to worry about keeping my stacks from the Nullifiers that occasionally spawned.  I was happy with not dying nor undying, but I'm easy to please.  Not everyone is like me unfortunately, and I've had first hand experience with people with stronger control issues than I have.  

Again, I look forward to playtesting the Ember build I currently have.  To see how she does with the changes.  And if it goes against what they promise, rest assured I will bring it up.  But I won't complain about it.  I won't whinge because let's face it -- when subordinates whinge at me, I ignore them.  When I whinge at superiors I can tell -- by the expression they have -- they're not listening to me either.  

31 minutes ago, Xeks69 said:

Mob scaling is ridiculous and there are tons of weak weapons and when people all use the most efficient one then you say its a problem

While I can admit that there are some naturally low level weapons, what you're saying here indicates to me that perhaps you only know how to play one way.  This game is about space ninjas.  You're an assassin out to kill butt tons of faction members indiscriminately and wantonly.  Like ninjas we should be able to do this with either the Arca Plasmor or the Mutalist Cernos.  And I've learned since I've been with this game 5 years, no one way is the only way.  I've also learned that the weapon becomes deadly not only with the right build, but in the right hands.  

And Ember can still be just as deadly in the right hands.  DE has deemed that one way is no longer conducive to team play.  Because it's been copied the same way how many different times?  I'm readily syspecting way more than they're willing to admit at the moment.  

See what I said about humans being lazy by nature.  This is the proof as to why I posited that in this debate. If you don't think so, my inbox is open and I'll more than happily explain it based on experience with 7 year olds.  

42 minutes ago, Xeks69 said:

to be the member and part of the council not to rule the game like presidents and monarchs.

Wait...  What?  

[Lord-Nezekan]

34 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

How big a design team does DE have for this game?  How many of them are dedicated to the code?  I'm wagering there's a small group of people.  I get the distinct impression that who we see in the dev streams and running the prime time streams are the key people on this project.  And I know one of them was dedicated to another project not too long ago.  And that's small.. 

Do you think that many people can change things instantaneously?  Really?  Even with a bigger team, it takes time to turn things.  Take a look at other AAA games who do have the manpower to do what you're implying in this takes them how long?  And even when they try, it fails because of GIGO. 

I'm going to suggest a break from this.  I feel like your perceptions on these issues are either too close to home, or you're lacking in some field (of expertise) to fully work with what's been right in front of you since we joined the game.  

Are you asking for my personal perspective?  My work ethic?  Or DE's?  

The problem is that you're not building your own set up.  You personally might have -- and upon success that build was shared it with 50,000 people (round number, grabbed from the air, but you get what I imply).  Is that your own build anymore or something carbon copied?  Is it enhancing the gaming experience for everyone, or is it just proof of special snowflake syndrome ignoring a team effort in order for you to complete the objective?  That those three other squad members are made superfluous because you killed everything from start to finish.  

These are the moral questions that DE had to have asked in some capacity before they decided, "yep, this needs to be stopped."  

I don't imply that this might be the right choice to fix things.  In anything, if it's wrong then we as PC players have the obligation to report what's wrong with it.  However, unlike Damage 2.5 where I did see several on the design council and even the community contributors point out the absolute shortcomings of that revised damage system.  Enough that I didn't need to add any opinion to it and let their words serve their purpose.  

It got tabled.  I'm hoping when it returns it's not as clapped out as 2.5 or even Damage 3.0 which had been suggested years ago.  If it is resubmitted, I'll be checking who's saying what and if that fails, I will contribute.  Until then though, I prefer to focus on what I do best.  Graphical and Environmental Glitching that occurs in the game.  

Ember's rework?  All I've seen is whinging at the unknown.  With the preliminary submissions about her rework from DE, I see no shortcomings from the start.  On paper, it looks more team oriented.  Whether this is true or not remains in the realm of guesswork and theorycraft.  Only real-time testing will prove whether it's a shortcoming or not.  

Oh and Ember's a Mage-frame.  All her DPS is in the realm of fire and magic.  She lacks armour for fighting.  She lacks strength for hand-to-hand (like Valkyr).  Again, I posed the challenge to you, and I'll post it again: 

The current argument is that halving the range and doubling the drain will cause Ember to run with the team instead of running to extraction completely ignoring everyone and with the enemies ending up as bits of charcoal on the floor.  There is a counter to this -- it's slim and deals with Ember's armour and survivability even in a close quarters team.. 

If I missed something in that challenge, do be sure to point it out.  

When's the last time you actually ran with a max strength and max range Ember?  I did this during a sortie (last night) and she was mopping the floor in an eximus stronghold.  Doubly so with a Max Range SloVa.  I personally didn't mind the fact that as a Rage Nidus, I just had to worry about keeping my stacks from the Nullifiers that occasionally spawned.  I was happy with not dying nor undying, but I'm easy to please.  Not everyone is like me unfortunately, and I've had first hand experience with people with stronger control issues than I have.  

Again, I look forward to playtesting the Ember build I currently have.  To see how she does with the changes.  And if it goes against what they promise, rest assured I will bring it up.  But I won't complain about it.  I won't whinge because let's face it -- when subordinates whinge at me, I ignore them.  When I whinge at superiors I can tell -- by the expression they have -- they're not listening to me either.  

While I can admit that there are some naturally low level weapons, what you're saying here indicates to me that perhaps you only know how to play one way.  This game is about space ninjas.  You're an assassin out to kill butt tons of faction members indiscriminately and wantonly.  Like ninjas we should be able to do this with either the Arca Plasmor or the Mutalist Cernos.  And I've learned since I've been with this game 5 years, no one way is the only way.  I've also learned that the weapon becomes deadly not only with the right build, but in the right hands.  

And Ember can still be just as deadly in the right hands.  DE has deemed that one way is no longer conducive to team play.  Because it's been copied the same way how many different times?  I'm readily syspecting way more than they're willing to admit at the moment.  

See what I said about humans being lazy by nature.  This is the proof as to why I posited that in this debate. If you don't think so, my inbox is open and I'll more than happily explain it based on experience with 7 year olds.  

Wait...  What?  

Dude first of all if its not ready don't release it period.

2nd the moment you decide what mod to put even if you just copied it its you personal build no one put it for you, you did. Don't even bother to argue cause you know they had the choice not to pick up the build.

3rd team play ? wtf how about those who has connection issues who only plays solo or those who just really wanna play solo you want them to suffer the consequence? and its not like ember is the only one who can kill fast and leave the team almost every damage frame that has an aoe skill that passes through walls can do that why dont we just remove that all together.

4th thats not even a moral question zzzz do you even know what morality means ? also there is no god-builds there is high damage builds but no really GOD builds in this game and what level are this mobs we are even talking about, cause if that same build applies to any level and mission or mode of the game I will acknowledge it but I think there was none,so yeah I refuse to accept any of your rubbish argument.

5th Dude there contract entitled them to be a member of the design council not the ruler of the game is that so hard to understand ? designs and features dude to be relased in the game we are talking about released contents, and not to be released here god damn.

6th all your high and mighty talk pfff you dont even know what weapons i even use for one my favorite melee is my dragon nikana you can check my profile  and see if im lying is that OP to you GOD GAMER ?

7th do you honestly belive that this nerfs will fix any of the problems you have mentioned ? just because ember is out of the equation do you honestly believe that there  will be no more pub stomping missions ? Cause I am sure and I can bet you on that, that its not gonna get rid of it for the simple fact that if you put a well modded frame / weapon with half assed build frames and weapon squad they will really be left out.

9th also that sorties storie of your i bet you werent just standing and leaving you WOF do the work 2nd dude its nova with you that has huge damage boost for your skills next time solo it with ember with your max range max power build then tell us the story of how OP your ember is and how you decimate the sortie eximus mobs.

10th don't give me that field of expertise wtf are you even a game developer what expertise do you have ? your just criticizing my opinion without facts to back it up and you even dared to speak of expertise ? are you an employee of DE ? how the hell did you know whats going on there ? God Damn Stop trying to act smart cause your not I can tell already dude. Ive seen criminals and people with ill behavior I can already tell if they think straight or not. Clearly your claims are unjustified.  MAGE frame ? wtf then she should be dealing alot of damage with his abilities why isn't that the case ? you know alot of other frames can deal a higher amount of damage and dps compared to her so wow so much for a mage frame and what now they want to turn her to a glass cannon  cause she is a MAGE FRAME ? wew.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Xeks69

[CaptainZgred]

4 hours ago, MBaldelli said:

Absolutely it is, overpowered.  I'm decimating a room with only 3 reloads.  However, as one player I can't see that being a problem.  I do see it becoming a problem when 50,000 players copy my build and do the same thing with it.  And if DE makes the decision to rework it in some way, who's fault does ie become?  Mine?  Or the 50,000 players that copied it?  

Tonkor nerfed to the ground?  I can still use the Tonkor quite effectively.  Like the Lenz however, I don't play with it in groups given the chance of self-damage is greater than I want to pay.   Your question is emotionally motivated.  And subsequent questions asked as well.

I would answer the rest, however I have provided sufficient proof that this posting isn't about change and whether it's good or bad, but instead personal bias that goes against what you prefer staying put...  I have given you a challenge with @LSG501.  Work with it.  Who knows?  With sufficient work there, perhaps you might be able to change the tide.  

I'm almost dying of laughter at the moment

[Lord-Nezekan]

Hi ! ahahah God Gamer MBaldelli why'd you reject my friend invite ? I'm just being friendly as I thought most players who thinks the way you do has nothing really to show for ahahah nice proof btw and your in-game stats clearly showed it you are truly remarkable! BTW just to clarify Veteran doesn't really mean old you know its a person who has had long experience in a particular field, you can check the dictionary if you want to. Just to let you know that when a Person lies about who he is anything he says is devoid of merit. Being able to start in the game early or being the first one doesn't really make you a veteran you have to play it, and its the experience that counts, just like a soldier who enlisted but never gone to war you cant call him a veteran of the world war 1 or world war 2 if he has never been to any of those wars in the first place. Well anyway its always good to keep dreaming it keeps the hope alive aight Peace man !

Edited February 8, 2018 by Xeks69

[UcanDomates]

Hey Tenno!

I'm afraid I'll have to lock this topic up. It's derailing from it's original purpose, and there is no point for keeping this thread up... at this point...