Can we get some update on the chat moderation?

[Fallen_Echo]

39 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

That's a problem with the bot not being on all the time.  It should be.

I agree with this one.

39 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Those aren't random words (especially not trap, which has a derogatory meaning when used in that context - guess how many threads people have started to complain about being banned for using that word in a derogatory way...)

I honestly never ever seen the word trap used as a derogatory term, at worst it means a transsexual/crossdresser who are doing such a top notch work that they are cannot be differented from females.

41 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

And, as I've said, I agree with that.  It would be nice is LGBTQIA people could self-identify, if only to combat the tendency of people online to assume that the person on the other end is a straight, cis-gendered, white male.  (You even assumed "he" in your comment that I'm responding to.)  It's unfortunate that DE doesn't have a way of dealing with the toxicity of the slurs that go with those self-identifications.  The best solution, so far, for DE has been to punish the wrong-doers with a time out.

There are no females on the internet.

I strangely keep myself to this and as a basic everybody is male unless pointed out that he is not.

Now the problem with gay is that we have mods working on to make this word acceptable aka deattach it from bing a slur. I agree with that motion completely.

43 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Muting and censoring does not solve the problem of slurs in the chats.  Reporting people is a good option for when the bot doesn't pick it up.  I fail to see why all issues have to be done through a report, however, that puts even more strain on the mods and allows people to get away with far more than they currently do.

The problem is that the chatbot doesnt combat this at all. Just as i said a quick glance at what happens early and late here shows that even when the bot works with full combat capacity its not enough, but if we would combat such things with reporting the mods would see more people and could issue harsher bans too.

I rather see guys on region saying "but thats soo gay" as a norm if that means that i can actively weed out all the people who do worse.

47 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

The solution isn't to scrap the bot and add an opt-in system that allows people to use slurs and get away with no punishment.  The solution is to have the bot be on 24/7.  Bots don't need sleep.

The bot is not scrapped, it just works selectively. It could still work 24/7 but would only attack the over the top offenses and not trying to combat memes or words like gender and balls. With the report system the mods could even get a basic idea on the latests slurs and such on what to put on the bot.

Also since we are talking about the bot how about a 24h first warning period? If someone done something wrong they get a message explaining the problem and get force censored for 24 hours, if they try to still use slurs and atrocities without triggering the bot just one report would be enough to send them (if real problem happened) for a week or month long chat ban.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

38 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I honestly never ever seen the word trap used as a derogatory term, at worst it means a transsexual/crossdresser who are doing such a top notch work that they are cannot be differented from females.

Um......that is derogatory.  It's painting a picture where transgender women are not really women, but are men looking to trap other men into homosexual intercourse because evil, nefarious purposes.  People get beaten and killed because of homophobia and transphobia engendered by things like calling people traps.  It's dehumanizing.

52 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

There are no females on the internet.

I strangely keep myself to this and as a basic everybody is male unless pointed out that he is not.

And, I'm not being accusatory, but we, as a society, need to stop viewing the default as straight, cis-gendered, white male.  I catch myself doing it sometimes too, and I have to remind myself not to make those assumptions.  It's who we are as a society, and it's something that we need to change.

53 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Now the problem with gay is that we have mods working on to make this word acceptable aka deattach it from bing a slur. I agree with that motion completely.

I would love it if people stopped using the word in a derogatory manner.  I don't know how to make it happen though, and the best solution I have seen to counter it is to punish those offenders and remove their chat privileges.

54 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

The problem is that the chatbot doesnt combat this at all. Just as i said a quick glance at what happens early and late here shows that even when the bot works with full combat capacity its not enough, but if we would combat such things with reporting the mods would see more people and could issue harsher bans too.

People will find ways around the bot.  It's like a war of escalation.  That's why I favor having both the bot and the report function.  Personally, I take screenshots and then send those to either DE, an online mod, or both.

56 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I rather see guys on region saying "but thats soo gay" as a norm if that means that i can actively weed out all the people who do worse.

"That's so gay" is derogatory.  And, I don't see why you have to allow people to be derogatory in order to weed out people who are even more derogatory?  Can you clarify?

59 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

The bot is not scrapped, it just works selectively. It could still work 24/7 but would only attack the over the top offenses and not trying to combat memes or words like gender and balls. With the report system the mods could even get a basic idea on the latests slurs and such on what to put on the bot.

Just because something is a meme doesn't make it less harmful.  Just sayin'.

Also, mods don't update the bot list, DE does.  If DE is seeing these reports, then there might be something there.  I'm still uncomfortable with the idea of reducing the activity of the bot or allowing for the need to have mods go over every report.  I don't think there are enough mods (as I said, there are 3 mods in NA total on XB1).  I like the instant action the bot provides.  And, it doesn't leave the legislation of whether a comment goes to the mods up to how many people happen to catch the comment and not like it.  I'm also leery of having more work put into a filter which is opt-in (whenever one has to update their filter, they are opting into what things they allow in chat or disallow) as it doesn't punish the bad actors if their actions are simply not seen by the people who would do something about it.

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Also since we are talking about the bot how about a 24h first warning period? If someone done something wrong they get a message explaining the problem and get force censored for 24 hours, if they try to still use slurs and atrocities without triggering the bot just one report would be enough to send them (if real problem happened) for a week or month long chat ban.

I don't feel like people should need to be warned about not using slurs.  I would support having the bot provide more information to the person that has been suspended, like how long the suspension lasts and at least vague details about what they did, like "You used a slur, you're banned for <insert time left on ban here>."

[Letter13]

Discussing and providing feedback on how chat moderation can be improved (i.e. messages to notify users when they're banned, how long they're banned for, and the ban reason, etc) is perfectly okay and fine and good.

 

Using this thread to champion and encourage derogatory slurs, abusive behavior and disrespectful conduct towards others is not something we will tolerate, whether it's done on the forums or in the in game chat.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Um......that is derogatory.  It's painting a picture where transgender women are not really women, but are men looking to trap other men into homosexual intercourse because evil, nefarious purposes.  People get beaten and killed because of homophobia and transphobia engendered by things like calling people traps.  It's dehumanizing.

I gotta say this is the first time i ever seen this word described like this. I maybe stalk the wrong communities but you are the second or third guy here who describes traps like some nefarious things.

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

And, I'm not being accusatory, but we, as a society, need to stop viewing the default as straight, cis-gendered, white male.  I catch myself doing it sometimes too, and I have to remind myself not to make those assumptions.  It's who we are as a society, and it's something that we need to change.

No color or sexuality redered to it, its just male. The main reason i say guy and he is because its the shortest term, the other reason is i respect the other side more than to refer to him as "it".

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

"That's so gay" is derogatory.  And, I don't see why you have to allow people to be derogatory in order to weed out people who are even more derogatory?  Can you clarify?

Think about it as a search in a laboratory for a specific cancer cell. You inject a reactant and watch each one of them till your systems or you pick up one what react the way you want. You go and remove that cell for further inspection.

Same situation here, we let them use the word gay and punish every single one who tries to use it in an offensive way, sooner or latter only those who use it in legit way remain opposed to the current system what blanket removes everything creating a mass off people who will react badly.

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Also, mods don't update the bot list, DE does.  If DE is seeing these reports, then there might be something there.  I'm still uncomfortable with the idea of reducing the activity of the bot or allowing for the need to have mods go over every report.  I don't think there are enough mods (as I said, there are 3 mods in NA total on XB1).  I like the instant action the bot provides.  And, it doesn't leave the legislation of whether a comment goes to the mods up to how many people happen to catch the comment and not like it.  I'm also leery of having more work put into a filter which is opt-in (whenever one has to update their filter, they are opting into what things they allow in chat or disallow) as it doesn't punish the bad actors if their actions are simply not seen by the people who would do something about it.

Now i dont know about that but i have seen a tweet where a mod claimed they personally added the trap word and its possible connections into the list.

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I don't feel like people should need to be warned about not using slurs.  I would support having the bot provide more information to the person that has been suspended, like how long the suspension lasts and at least vague details about what they did, like "You used a slur, you're banned for <insert time left on ban here>."

The idea is basically the same as the forum warning system we have but with a much shorter fuse.

Your messages as punishment get hard censored for 24 hours and the warning in my opinion for the best effect should stay on for a week too. The moment they do it again the system can swoop down them and a mod can go and ban them.

 

I think we should stop the argument about what is and what is not derogatory and go back to the topic  on how the moderation could be improved. Letter 13 is right at this point they are nothing more but personal opinions and shouldnt take up anymore place.

[Daxturus]

Why not have Warframe prevent people from posting potentially inappropriate comments in the first place ONE TIME (per instance of game + possible infringement)? Anyone careless enough to press enter again after getting the warning, those who are actually malicious, or just a person downright wanting to post what they're selling on Region can be banned normally, while the unknowing people could see why they potentially would've been banned from chat and help DE fix any accidential bans in chat. Heck, it could make the UI shake, have it make that little "du-dun" sound when you don't have enough energy to cast an ability, and make a message pop up saying "You can't post that because: [of why they can't]." It would help a lot of people who would slip up and mistakenly get banned by DE, and would probably cut down on the number of support tickets they get about this by a mile.

Sorry if my explanation of my idea is a little confusing, I'm tired at the moment. Just that it would warn you once about a potential bannable phrase before you said it, giving you a choice of saying it + setting yourself up for being punished, while protecting you from accidentially saying it. This also wouldn't take away the chat bot's duties, as they'll still get to ban those who ignored the warning.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Daxturus

[Fallen_Echo]

4 hours ago, Daxturus said:

Why not have Warframe prevent people from posting potentially inappropriate comments in the first place ONE TIME (per instance of game + possible infringement)? Anyone careless enough to press enter again after getting the warning, those who are actually malicious, or just a person downright wanting to post what they're selling on Region can be banned normally, while the unknowing people could see why they potentially would've been banned from chat and help DE fix any accidential bans in chat. Heck, it could make the UI shake, have it make that little "du-dun" sound when you don't have enough energy to cast an ability, and make a message pop up saying "You can't post that because: [of why they can't]." It would help a lot of people who would slip up and mistakenly get banned by DE, and would probably cut down on the number of support tickets they get about this by a mile.

Sorry if my explanation of my idea is a little confusing, I'm tired at the moment. Just that it would warn you once about a potential bannable phrase before you said it, giving you a choice of saying it + setting yourself up for being punished, while protecting you from accidentially saying it. This also wouldn't take away the chat bot's duties, as they'll still get to ban those who ignored the warning.

That actually sounds good.

Whenever someone types in something the system checks it and if it finds a problem with it, he gets a warning that "sorry X but word Y is prohibited, this is your first warning", the message never reached the chats and if he wants to go with it anyway the bot can go and ban him.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

16 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I think we should stop the argument about what is and what is not derogatory and go back to the topic  on how the moderation could be improved. Letter 13 is right at this point they are nothing more but personal opinions and shouldnt take up anymore place.

That is not what Letter13 said.  It is not personal opinion that some terms are used in a derogatory fashion and that those terms lead to a culture where minorities are harmed (financially, physically, emotionally, etc.) regardless of what Letter13 may have said or not said, or may say or not say in the future.  I will agree, however, that it is a side topic.

I do, however, want to touch on this:

16 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

No color or sexuality redered to it, its just male. The main reason i say guy and he is because its the shortest term, the other reason is i respect the other side more than to refer to him as "it".

I highly doubt that you say "guy" or "he" simply because it's the shortest term.  It's entrenched in most cultures around the world.

How about using the non-gender specific "They" or "Them" instead.

16 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Same situation here, we let them use the word gay and punish every single one who tries to use it in an offensive way, sooner or latter only those who use it in legit way remain opposed to the current system what blanket removes everything creating a mass off people who will react badly.

The problem is that DE doesn't have the resources to effectively do this.

16 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

The idea is basically the same as the forum warning system we have but with a much shorter fuse.

Your messages as punishment get hard censored for 24 hours and the warning in my opinion for the best effect should stay on for a week too. The moment they do it again the system can swoop down them and a mod can go and ban them.

Sounds like just a reduction in punishment for using words that are objectively harmful.  DE has set the punishment time as 1 week.  Why should it be changed?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

21 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

In DE's/moderator's opinion objectively harmful

FTFY

21 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

DE has set the punishment time as 1 week.  Why should it be changed?

DE is vague at best with their "punishment" and why. All words or phrases they consider hateful and or derogatory and therefore not allowed should be posted with the penalty it constitutes. 

It's not a difficult concept to grasp. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I highly doubt that you say "guy" or "he" simply because it's the shortest term.  It's entrenched in most cultures around the world.

How about using the non-gender specific "They" or "Them" instead.

I only use they or them if im talking about multiple persons. In fact english is not my native language and we dont have separate words for male and female as he or she. Unless its important in the actual conversation what gender was the target, normally its ignored.

2 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Sounds like just a reduction in punishment for using words that are objectively harmful.  DE has set the punishment time as 1 week.  Why should it be changed?

How about we use @Daxturus's suggestion?

Instead of censoring and such, you get 1 chance every day to make a mistake. When you type in a word what is currently banned your message gets auto deleted and you get an automatic pm from the bot claiming " Sorry user X word is banned currently for Y reason. This is your first warning, the next one comes with a ban. "

Everybody who tries to avoid triggering by changing up words and such now could be reported and get 1 week or even longer punishments, since if it appeared in the chat that means at some point they got their warning.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

4 hours ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

FTFY

DE is vague at best with their "punishment" and why. All words or phrases they consider hateful and or derogatory and therefore not allowed should be posted with the penalty it constitutes. 

It's not a difficult concept to grasp. 

You didn't fix anything.  It's objectively true.  I can provide peer-reviewed research to back me up.

And, I don't agree that they need to post a list.  You're in my alliance.  Do we have a list?  No.  You put up some derogatory stuff, and you'll find yourself suspended from alliance chat real quick.  It's not difficult to grasp that one should not engage in saying derogatory slurs in chat and that if one does that one can be punished by DE revoking chat privileges.

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I only use they or them if im talking about multiple persons. In fact english is not my native language and we dont have separate words for male and female as he or she. Unless its important in the actual conversation what gender was the target, normally its ignored.

They and them are perfectly fine for the instance where you don't know to whom you are speaking, even in the case of singular people.  It has the added benefit of accommodating non-gender binary people.

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

How about we use @Daxturus's suggestion?

Instead of censoring and such, you get 1 chance every day to make a mistake. When you type in a word what is currently banned your message gets auto deleted and you get an automatic pm from the bot claiming " Sorry user X word is banned currently for Y reason. This is your first warning, the next one comes with a ban. "

Everybody who tries to avoid triggering by changing up words and such now could be reported and get 1 week or even longer punishments, since if it appeared in the chat that means at some point they got their warning.

That might work as long as the message goes into a black hole never to be seen by the chat tab.  I still believe that in the vast majority of cases, a time out is warranted and should be meted out.

Is the 1 chance per day related to a single word, or is it an absolute?  If it's per word, then I don't think I like that system.  It would basically allow people to keep testing the filter until they find something that passes through.

[Fallen_Echo]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

That might work as long as the message goes into a black hole never to be seen by the chat tab.  I still believe that in the vast majority of cases, a time out is warranted and should be meted out.

Is the 1 chance per day related to a single word, or is it an absolute?  If it's per word, then I don't think I like that system.  It would basically allow people to keep testing the filter until they find something that passes through.

From what he wrote i assume its an absolute per day and no message caught by this ever reaches the chat.

It still allows patient people to "test around" but because they already got their warnings and bypassed it, the mod catching them can issue harsher penalties like a month long chatban.

For example lets say you from now on call people sausages in the chat as it does not triggered the bot, but someone reported you and in the report data its clear that you already got a warning saying "Hello R3d P01nt , it is forbidden to call people pepperoni and other meat industry products in the chat, you have been warned."

Boom, you got banned for half a month.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

40 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

It still allows patient people to "test around" but because they already got their warnings and bypassed it, the mod catching them can issue harsher penalties like a month long chatban.

Why not just have the bot autoban if someone bypasses their warning?  Why should it require a mod?

I'm still confused as to whether someone can type a word into chat one day, and then type that same word the next day and get another warning?  Or, can someone type 1 word, get the warning, then type another banned word and receive another warning?

Doesn't this require chat mods to have access to report data?  I don't think they have that.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

You didn't fix anything.  It's objectively true.  I can provide peer-reviewed research to back me up.

 

And, I don't agree that they need to post a list.  You're in my alliance.  Do we have a list?  No.  You put up some derogatory stuff, and you'll find yourself suspended from alliance chat real quick.  It's not difficult to grasp that one should not engage in saying derogatory slurs in chat and that if one does that one can be punished by DE revoking chat privileges.

 Disagree with you.

Ok so can I ask you a quick question? 

If, as an example "Nezha is a trap" is considered derogatory and constitutes a penelaty. Then so should "Nezha is a ambush" yet no penalty for saying ambush in this context. Tell me what the difference is? 

Or say someone wrote "rule of thumb" which is derogatory towards woman. Yet no penelaty. 

That there is the problem, If you ban one word that so should the rest that are synonyms be banned. If you ban one phrase then all phrases she be banned. 

So yes there should be a list. And the mods and bots should follow that list and update it regularly and let the chat filter do it's job. Hate speech or profanity should be a permanent ban. But there should be a warning first. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

55 minutes ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

If, as an example "Nezha is a trap" is considered derogatory and constitutes a penelaty. Then so should "Nezha is a ambush" yet no penalty for saying ambush in this context. Tell me what the difference is?

Ambush is not a derogatory term like trap is.  If someone is using "ambush" to bypass "trap" then, yeah, it should be punished, based on the context.  It's hard for bots to pick up context, however, which is why we have a report function and chat mods.

55 minutes ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

Or say someone wrote "rule of thumb" which is derogatory towards woman. Yet no penelaty.

It's not derogatory towards women.  It derives from the fact that the average adult thumb to the first joint measures roughly an inch long.  It's a tall tale that it originated in English Common Law as the maximum width of a stick used to beat women.

57 minutes ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

That there is the problem, If you ban one word that so should the rest that are synonyms be banned. If you ban one phrase then all phrases she be banned. 

So yes there should be a list.

This is a non sequitur.

58 minutes ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

And the mods and bots should follow that list and update it regularly and let the chat filter do it's job. Hate speech or profanity should be a permanent ban. But there should be a warning first.

So, right now hate speech is a week suspension, profanity is largely tolerated, and for good reason (profanity is not the same as hate speech).  Also, the bot is doing its job.  It filters for words that are on the list and hands out suspensions.  I'm not seeing your issue.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Why not just have the bot autoban if someone bypasses their warning?  Why should it require a mod?

I'm still confused as to whether someone can type a word into chat one day, and then type that same word the next day and get another warning?  Or, can someone type 1 word, get the warning, then type another banned word and receive another warning?

I meant bypass as pulled a word what is a slur and not have been added to the bots list yet.

 

As for how it works again, its simple you type in a word and if its banned you get the warning. No message appeared in the chat but you got your warning, for today you are warned.

If the next day after 24 hours you try it again the same happens, no message appears in the chat and you get warned again what is active for 24 hours.

 

While the warning period is on if you type in another word what is on the banlist you get banned, this time with a message claiming that Y too is banned along with its kind.

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Doesn't this require chat mods to have access to report data?  I don't think they have that.

Maybe, but i think this could be fixed if the report go throught the bot first who just adds in a small line code if the user was warned and when it happened.

[Daxturus]

5 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

From what he wrote i assume its an absolute per day and no message caught by this ever reaches the chat.

It still allows patient people to "test around" but because they already got their warnings and bypassed it, the mod catching them can issue harsher penalties like a month long chatban.

For example lets say you from now on call people sausages in the chat as it does not triggered the bot, but someone reported you and in the report data its clear that you already got a warning saying "Hello R3d P01nt , it is forbidden to call people pepperoni and other meat industry products in the chat, you have been warned."

Boom, you got banned for half a month.

That's exactly it. The peperoniz even added a special touch. :3

 

I was gonna come back and say "What'd I miss?" but uh now it just doesn't feel right lol.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Daxturus

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

15 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I meant bypass as pulled a word what is a slur and not have been added to the bots list yet.

 

As for how it works again, its simple you type in a word and if its banned you get the warning. No message appeared in the chat but you got your warning, for today you are warned.

If the next day after 24 hours you try it again the same happens, no message appears in the chat and you get warned again what is active for 24 hours.

 

While the warning period is on if you type in another word what is on the banlist you get banned, this time with a message claiming that Y too is banned along with its kind.

IOW, you want the system we have now, but with warnings that reset every day.  I'm still not convinced that warnings are necessary in most cases.  I think we shall have to agree to disagree.

15 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Maybe, but i think this could be fixed if the report go throught the bot first who just adds in a small line code if the user was warned and when it happened.

If the chat mods don't receive reports on chat logs, then they similarly wouldn't receive bot-altered chat log reports.  I believe only DE staff have access to those.

[Letter13]

Locking, as the thread has run its course.