Disappointment In Warframe And Thoughts On Improving (Long Wall Of Text With Paragraphing)

[Eulo]

+1, nicely articulated arguments overall. I get what you're saying about Prime weapons, but they are supposed to be better. I do think that they should implement some sort of 'exchange' system for -at the very least- spent potatoes. I'm still farming for my Braton Prime and I have a catalyst set aside for it, but I do feel -not cheated- but more so slighted that they release these new Prime versions with little to no warning. If I was in the situation of potato-ing a weapon, then the very next day they announce the Prime version; I would feel cheated.

 

Nonetheless, Prime weapons aside, OP put this together nicely. To see something that essentially and effectively points out almost all the problems with this game get so much support (4 pages atm) is great, and to me, speaks volumes that the arguments are not only valid; but also sound in reason (again, barring the Prime weapon's). Especially when every single response is in support of it (yes, I read all 4 pages).

[notionphil]

Maybe we need to find a way to make more noise?  Or different noise? 

 

It is true that the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  But through the internet, the noise of said wheel is drowned out a great deal automatically.

 

If we had enough people messaging them directly maybe?  But I don't want us to resort to spamming.  And topics like these get little to no attention from what we can tell.  

 

Or the topic about cells for endgame, with over 400 upvotes.

 

So how do we get their attention without ANNOYING them so they'll just want to tune us out more?

 

We speak in unison. A thousand voices calmly saying the same thing versus chaotic shouting and whining.

[litlit]

I don't want to be mean, and I always appreciate positive changes and new content.

 

 

But I feel like we had shiny objects dangled in front of us to distract us like kittens from the other issues......

 

Almost 10,000 participants in the live stream, and even though I couldn't log onto chat (wouldn't load) you mean to tell me not one person asked about AI?  Or Power Creep? Or anything like that?

They did not mention power creep, from what I saw.

 

But, they did discuss the other important things: armor scaling, prime weapons, AI, connectivity issues, and performance issues.

 

Summary:

 

About AI, connectivity issues, and performance issues -- "we're working on it". They discussed AI largely in the context of stealth; they are working on it but it is taking a long time because it's a pretty big task to build better AI. They are aware of many people unable to connect to others through matchmaking; they are working on it and working to provide workarounds in the meantime, such as players other than the host can use void keys for the group. DERebecca said she would send one of them (sorry, I forget their names) forum links where people have reported performance issues (such as the notorious FPS drops in the void, even on high-end hardware).

 

An overhaul of the damage system and a mod loadout system are in the works, no timeframe given but it was implied that both would be released at the same time. The gist is they don't want armor pierce/ignore to be everything at high levels, which I think is a good sign.

 

They kind of gave a non-answer when asked about Prime weapons, and concerns players had about new Prime weapons making the older versions obsolete (and making any potatoes/formas spent on them wasted). DERebecca brought up suggestions made by players such as making the older version of a weapon a requirement to build the Prime, allowing any formas or potatoes (or both) to be carried over. The answer was "eh, maybe".

 

That last one was a huge mistep, IMO. "You supported our game financially, even though it's still in beta? Cool, now go F*** yourself."

Edited August 14, 2013 by litlir

[Bakercompany86]

They did not mention power creep, from what I saw.

 

But, they did discuss the other important things: armor scaling, prime weapons, AI, connectivity issues, and performance issues.

 

Summary:

 

About AI, connectivity issues, and performance issues -- "we're working on it". They discussed AI largely in the context of stealth; they are working on it but it is taking a long time because it's a pretty big task to build better AI. They are aware of many people unable to connect to others through matchmaking; they are working on it and working to provide workarounds in the meantime, such as players other than the host can use void keys for the group. DERebecca said she would send one of them (sorry, I forget their names) forum links where people have reported performance issues (such as the notorious FPS drops in the void, even on high-end hardware).

 

An overhaul of the damage system and a mod loadout system are in the works, no timeframe given but it was implied that both would be released at the same time. The gist is they don't want armor pierce/ignore to be everything at high levels, which I think is a good sign.

 

They kind of gave a non-answer when asked about Prime weapons, and concerns players had about new Prime weapons making the older versions obsolete (and making any potatoes/formas spent on them wasted). DERebecca brought up suggestions made by players such as making the older version of a weapon a requirement to build the Prime, allowing any formas or potatoes (or both) to be carried over. The answer was "eh, maybe".

 

That last one was a huge mistep, IMO. "You supported our game financially, even though it's still in beta? Cool, now go F*** yourself."

 

 

Wow I missed all of that.  Thank you for that update!  I think I caught it about 15 minutes into the stream, so I can see where I must have missed it.

 

Fixing the AI is a huge part of making this game better in addition to toning down the enemy scaling.

 

Man that's great!  I'm sad I missed it. I'll have to download it later and watch it again (Rebecca is hot anyway).

 

That makes me feel A LOT better!

 

Tell me more about your last sentence...what exactly did they say in regards to founders?  I'm not one of them, just curious though.

[shukudai]

Summary:

 

About AI, connectivity issues, and performance issues -- "we're working on it". They discussed AI largely in the context of stealth; they are working on it but it is taking a long time because it's a pretty big task to build better AI. They are aware of many people unable to connect to others through matchmaking; they are working on it and working to provide workarounds in the meantime, such as players other than the host can use void keys for the group. DERebecca said she would send one of them (sorry, I forget their names) forum links where people have reported performance issues (such as the notorious FPS drops in the void, even on high-end hardware).

 

An overhaul of the damage system and a mod loadout system are in the works, no timeframe given but it was implied that both would be released at the same time. The gist is they don't want armor pierce/ignore to be everything at high levels, which I think is a good sign.

 

From https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/79734-meanwhile-at-des-u9-meeting/'>"Meanwhile at DE's U9 Meeting":

 

 

To update its relevance, feel free to replace Steve's line with "I'm gonna to make some new lighting effects"

 

I really wish they would stop squandering the amazing foundation they have built for the game and set a goal to fix some of these long-standing issues...  Months upon months of "we're working on it" isn't cute anymore; we don't *need* lighting effects, but players of a multiplayer co-op PVE need to be able to join games.

[Bakercompany86]

Irrelevant now.

 

Edited August 15, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[correcthorse]

 

From "Meanwhile at DE's U9 Meeting":

 

 

To update its relevance, feel free to replace Steve's line with "I'm gonna to make some new lighting effects"

 

I really wish they would stop squandering the amazing foundation they have built for the game and set a goal to fix some of these long-standing issues...  Months upon months of "we're working on it" isn't cute anymore; we don't *need* lighting effects, but players of a multiplayer co-op PVE need to be able to join games.

I see what you're saying (and my point has been repeated to death on these forums) but you can't take the people responsible for lighting effects and expect them to fix Warframe's netcode.

[Bakercompany86]

I see what you're saying (and my point has been repeated to death on these forums) but you can't take the people responsible for lighting effects and expect them to fix Warframe's netcode.

 

Absolutely right.  The graphics team will continue to work on the graphics.  

 

From what I read earlier, they're addressing the largest of community concerns.  Namely AI, connections, and performance issues (the latter I haven't experienced).

 

So that's a really really good start.  Obviously all bugs should be worked out (within reason, some slip through the cracks in every game).  After that, improving the AI will make this game significantly more fun and challenging.  Tweaking the AI could also resolve other issues (like how fast players burn through missions).

[shukudai]

Dude....I was literally thinking someone should make one of these earlier.

 

 

You hit the ball out of the park.

 

Well...  I did make it earlier lol.  That was made a month ago :P and it's been the same issue (from personal experience) since U7.8, and prior (based on what I've read).

 

It's hardly "August 6th Community Hot Topics", is my point.  Making a start now, while great and all, is pretty long overdue.

[Examillion]

Wonderful thread, worth the read.

 

I've been with this game since the U5/U6 days, which was basically Closed Beta. I accepted the bare-bone and thoroughly enjoyed the game, it was simplistic but it had clear vision and focus, it felt like DE knew what they were doing and had solid reasonings behind it. The promised overhaul of the mod and levelling system was given but how they dealt with it afterwards was nothing short of a disaster, especially with their planned official release on a PS4 platform or potential Xbox One.

 

A F2P that allows blatant power creep, infuriating players who spend rare resources on weaponary only to see it go to 'waste' because there is a direct upgrade available instead of allowing to be an alternate skin or side-grade choice, not fixing core issues that has been plaguing the game for some time is going to end up in the garbage, sooner or later.

 

People wake up from an illusion like this, sooner or later.

 

Also, I made a thread A LONG time ago regarding Power Creep with DE_steve personally responding to it. Anyone willing to see how much contradiction or promises were pulled regarding that? Do note I got the same excuse as before from some people; Closed Beta. Look were we are now.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/13489-power-creep-addressing-the-devs/page-2

[Boatsniper]

-snip-

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/13489-power-creep-addressing-the-devs/page-2

It'll take weeks for the janitor to sweep up all these broken promises.

[SoulEchelon]

The whole Prime argument is pretty counter-intuitive to the longevity of this game.

People are constantly yelling and screaming about this game needing some sort of continuity. We need more goals, more things to look forward to. More progression. Guess what the Prime weapons are? They're goals. They're things to look forward to, they're progression.

The problem lies in the fact that all of you are looking at it in the wrong perspective. You're all high level, with tons of void keys and void runs under your belt while also having maxed out everything you can get your hands on. But those of us who have not - the newcomers to this game who are just barely crafting Cronus - see the Prime weapons as something they can eventually get, but will undoubtedly take far longer than their normal version.

I have a friend who made an account during beta, but has just recently started really playing (Actually, she may have stopped again.). The list of complaints she had was -insane-, one certainly not being prime equipment because she saw them (and easier to obtain weapons at her level) a goal. And as for everyone saying this game is easy, she says otherwise (And not because she's a girl, you pigs. She can kick the vast majority of everyone's asses in any pvp-oriented game, no joke). The real problem is EARLY progression and endgame, not prime weapons. She went Loki and has been relying on her Lato Vandal for everything because she can't craft much of anything yet. But that's a whole other topic.

If DE was trying to make the normal versions of these weapons redundant, they would've made the Prime weapons far easier to craft. They aren't easy to craft at all, are they? To all of you Masters with hundreds of void keys, sure. Probably very easy to craft for you. Not so much for those who have to farm those Void III keys before farming the Void III missions only to try and obtain a very rare blueprint or material that have less than a 10% chance of dropping. There's a reason why you don't see a lot of people as of yet using Prime weapons.

"But I forma'd/supercharged my weapon, and now there's a Prime version of it! BAWWW!" And? Are you telling me you're still holding on to your first ever supercharged weapon while ignoring the newer ones that might be better? Even though your Strun has a catalyst on it, you're now using HEK or Sobek or even BOAR aren't you? I placed a catalyst on my Orthos, knowing there's a Prime version. Why? Because I wanted to, and it was my choice. It's your choice to strengthen your current weapons. It's not DE's fault whatsoever.

Have any of you played an MMO or any game that allows you to upgrade your equipment? Did you upgrade said equipment, knowing full well that piece of equipment wasn't the strongest or highest level? Yeah, thought so. "BUT IT COSTS MONEY TO GET FORMAS/CATALYSTS" 1: I haven't paid for either of those in months, yet I have a stack of them thanks to FREE alerts/dailies. 2: Again - it's your choice whether or not to upgrade. If you feel you'll be able to get the Prime version of a weapon (or frame) very soon, then don't upgrade your current weapon. Or go ahead and do so. Again - CHOICE.

Edited August 19, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[dEEkAy2k9]

The whole Prime argument is pretty counter-intuitive to the longevity of this game.

People are constantly yelling and screaming about this game needing some sort of continuity. We need more goals, more things to look forward to. More progression. Guess what the Prime weapons are? They're goals. They're things to look forward to, they're progression.

The problem lies in the fact that all of you are looking at it in the wrong perspective. You're all high level, with tons of void keys and void runs under your belt while also having maxed out everything you can get your hands on. But those of us who have not - the newcomers to this game who are just barely crafting Cronus - see the Prime weapons as something they can eventually get, but will undoubtedly take far longer than their normal version.

I have a friend who made an account during beta, but has just recently started really playing (Actually, she may have stopped again.). The list of complaints she had was -insane-, one certainly not being prime equipment because she saw them (and easier to obtain weapons at her level) a goal. And as for everyone saying this game is easy, she says otherwise (And not because she's a girl, you pigs. She can kick the vast majority of everyone's asses in any pvp-oriented game, no joke). The real problem is EARLY progression and endgame, not prime weapons. She went Loki and has been relying on her Lato Vandal for everything because she can't craft much of anything yet. But that's a whole other topic.

If DE was trying to make the normal versions of these weapons redundant, they would've made the Prime weapons far easier to craft. They aren't easy to craft at all, are they? To all of you Masters with hundreds of void keys, sure. Probably very easy to craft for you. Not so much for those who have to farm those Void III keys before farming the Void III missions only to try and obtain a very rare blueprint or material that have less than a 10% chance of dropping. There's a reason why you don't see a lot of people as of yet using Prime weapons.

"But I forma'd/supercharged my weapon, and now there's a Prime version of it! BAWWW!" And? Are you telling me you're still holding on to your first ever supercharged weapon while ignoring the newer ones that might be better? Even though your Strun has a catalyst on it, you're now using HEK or Sobek or even BOAR aren't you? I placed a catalyst on my Orthos, knowing there's a Prime version. Why? Because I wanted to, and it was my choice. It's your choice to strengthen your current weapons. It's not DE's fault whatsoever.

Have any of you played an MMO or any game that allows you to upgrade your equipment? Did you upgrade said equipment, knowing full well that piece of equipment wasn't the strongest or highest level? Yeah, thought so. "BUT IT COSTS MONEY TO GET FORMAS/CATALYSTS" 1: I haven't paid for either of those in months, yet I have a stack of them thanks to FREE alerts/dailies. 2: Again - it's your choice whether or not to upgrade. If you feel you'll be able to get the Prime version of a weapon (or frame) very soon, then don't upgrade your current weapon. Or go ahead and do so. Again - CHOICE.

 

there are a few flaws in your argumentation

 

first: prime weapons

do you really see them as a goal? really? i don't. ofc i am mad that i put a catalyst on my braton and even polarized it just to have a prime braton being released the week after. prime weapons are straight upgrades to existing weapons, superior versions.

 

second: MMO reference and upgrading

in MMOs you come across tier 5 weapons that are being upgraded by tier 5 stones. tier 4 weapons by tier 4 stones, etc. ofc i'm upgrading my t5 stuff with t5 stones because those stones will become useless once i reach a higher tier. THAT's something warframe does not have.

another thing warframe does not have, real progression.

in MMOs you got dungeon a, rewarding you with dungeon set a. once you got your dungeaon set a, you are now allowed to take on dungeon b which should be cleared with either dungeon set a or something superior equipped. warframe does not have such mechanics. i don't need ANY specific weapon to succeed in this game. hell i could even play this game with the braton mk1, skana, lato and one of those starting warframes.

 

there's only one thing that requires you to have excellent equipment. that's endless defense on high lvl systems like pluto and high wave counts. those require you to have one of the top tier warframes like vauban or nova etc and armor ignoring equipment. no prime needed here.

another thing warframe does not have is a specific goal i can reach that i do not have to set myself. in mmos you got stuff like, get raid set, get pvp set, get legendary weapons etc. those all require you to do numerous things before you can take on that task. in warframe, all i can do is clear all planets (just a matter of time, not a big deal) OR collect and max everything.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

first: prime weapons

do you really see them as a goal? really? i don't. ofc i am mad that i put a catalyst on my braton and even polarized it just to have a prime braton being released the week after. prime weapons are straight upgrades to existing weapons, superior versions.

I definitely see them as a goal. In fact, braton prime is the entire reason I bought a bunch of void key packs, because I love Braton so much, so a Braton with much higher damage and magazine capacity is right up my alley.

And I went to great lengths to enhance my braton before I got ahold of my prime too. Do I feel ripped off? No. Because forma is a renewable resource. I've got truckloads of raid/exterminate keys I can burn whenever I need more forma.

[Jamescell]

Agreed.