Thought: Warframe's Level Design Encourages Rushing Due To Lack Of Pacing

[DSMK2]

I think I’m seeing the ‘rushing’ problem more clearly after running a number of missions for the ‘Arid Fear’ event. Every Corpus Void mission has ended up being a mad rush to each capture target, disregarding enemies and obstacles along our path.  I feel that this post links with a number of suggestions I’ve posted some time ago.

 

The problem of rushing doesn’t come from individual player play style, but rather in elements of, and in the randomized level design. Players rush because they can, and there’s nothing there to slow them or stop them, rushing gets them to the objective faster and easier. The randomized levels of Warframe and its elements (enemies, possible hazards) do not set the pace of their respective missions, making players more inclined to rush.

 

The randomized level design isn’t crafted like maps in typical shooters; that flow from ‘normal’ gameplay zones to zones with specific hazards or enemies, and back to ‘normal’ gameplay; each part of that flow affecting the player’s pace throughout the level.

 

I see very brief flashes of that flow when a level enters lock down, or when a room gets exposed to space; even extending to a Stalker encounter; for the most part I get the feeling that those events are treated as interruptions, because of their single tile scope. There is very little in level/tile environments and events that require players to deal with a situation or figure out a way around it before moving on. The screen by screen progression seen in some Arcade beat ‘em ups and shooters come to mind… Metal Slug!

 

To note, I think the current levels are pretty decent for casual play, as players can play as they want, and leave if they want (somewhat), with a degree of challenge. But the levels as they are now are merely settings for the Tenno and whatever faction to run around and shoot each other in (and look pretty!), that is all they are.

 

I don’t mind rushing if it’s used smartly based on what’s going on during a mission, but I do mind it when it’s the only thing happening throughout an entire mission. DE needs to figure out ways to add pacing to their tiles, groups of tiles, and to the entire level.

Edited August 14, 2013 by DSMK2

[Hipolipolopigus]

If you don't like rushing, get into a coordinated looting/exploration group instead of using PUGs. PUGs will almost never want to spend any more time in a mission than necessary.

 

DE don't "need" to do anything here; Warframe is cooperative by nature, so you'll need to get together with a group of similar players if you want to avoid the whole rushing deal.

[Ronyn]

Its true that the level design is one of the reasons why the pace is  not set to appropriately go against rushing.

This isn't due to the levels being randomly generated though.

[Syndrella]

This is the only way what the before person said. I don't like rushers too but if you want to play your style well without annoyed, then you need to find peoples on your style. 

[theasl]

If you don't like rushing, get into a coordinated looting/exploration group instead of using PUGs. PUGs will almost never want to spend any more time in a mission than necessary.

 

DE don't "need" to do anything here; Warframe is cooperative by nature, so you'll need to get together with a group of similar players if you want to avoid the whole rushing deal.

 

This is the only way what the before person said. I don't like rushers too but if you want to play your style well without annoyed, then you need to find peoples on your style. 

 

True, people who want to rush are going to rush, but that's only because the level design enables them to. What OP is saying is that DE should make them unable to rush - bottleneck the action, etc. There are elements of this in the new planet, where a crowd of Grineer pours out of a narrow corridor when you approach it, but because they've made certain frames so good at getting rid of crowds (Nova's 4, for example), it doesn't stop us for very long.

 

That said, I don't think it's a result of the procedural level generation either. That's fine, and can actually help with the rushing problem. An example of something that would help is a random mini-boss - say an adequately-levelled Hyena on corpus sets - that locks the room until it's dead and all 4 players have arrived.

[Hipolipolopigus]

True, people who want to rush are going to rush, but that's only because the level design enables them to. What OP is saying is that DE should make them unable to rush - bottleneck the action, etc. There are elements of this in the new planet, where a crowd of Grineer pours out of a narrow corridor when you approach it, but because they've made certain frames so good at getting rid of crowds (Nova's 4, for example), it doesn't stop us for very long.

 

That said, I don't think it's a result of the procedural level generation either. That's fine, and can actually help with the rushing problem. An example of something that would help is a random mini-boss - say an adequately-levelled Hyena on corpus sets - that locks the room until it's dead and all 4 players have arrived.

If people want to rush, why should they be prevented from doing so? Because the OP, amongst other players, expects pubs to kowtow to their desire for looting?

[DSMK2]

True, people who want to rush are going to rush, but that's only because the level design enables them to. What OP is saying is that DE should make them unable to rush - bottleneck the action, etc. There are elements of this in the new planet, where a crowd of Grineer pours out of a narrow corridor when you approach it, but because they've made certain frames so good at getting rid of crowds (Nova's 4, for example), it doesn't stop us for very long.

 

That's pretty much what I'm trying to say. Rushing is a viable action, but when it's rushing all the time... Something's wrong there. The tilesets currently have nothing that sets the pace of player progression through a level... Because they're just basic rooms and connectors... Hm.

 

If you don't like rushing, get into a coordinated looting/exploration group instead of using PUGs. PUGs will almost never want to spend any more time in a mission than necessary.

 

Of course, I do get moments where I'll just mentally scream "hurry up!" at a squad member lagging behind. But my concern stems from too much rushing that it becomes another form of 'normal' gameplay, that it makes non-tile based content trivial. I'm leaning more on a balance between looting/exploration and rushing.

 

There has to be some consequence of rushing. Yes you can rush, but you need to sometimes be careful where you step, or having to face the consequences of leaving too much enemy units alive. I'm hoping that DE creates pacing throughout a level, so that rushing becomes an option that is not used excessively, but used when needed.

Edited August 14, 2013 by DSMK2

[Hipolipolopigus]

Of course, I do get moments where I'll just mentally scream "hurry up!" at a squad member lagging behind. But my concern stems from too much rushing that it becomes another form of 'normal' gameplay, that it makes non-tile based content trivial. I'm leaning more on a balance between looting/exploration and rushing.

 

There has to be some consequence of rushing. Yes you can rush, but you need to sometimes be careful where you step, or having to face the consequences of leaving too much enemy units alive. I'm hoping that DE creates pacing throughout a level, so that rushing becomes an option that is not used excessively, but used when needed.

Your idea of "normal" gameplay is just how you play. Personally, I play as I need to. Unlocking content to see alerts/nightmares? Rush. New tileset? Explore. Need resources? Farm with MT and TW.

 

The consequence of rush is the sacrifice of the resources, credits and mods (If you're ignoring mobs). The players that rush accept this, for the most part. I'll reiterate my advice; find players that play like you. It'll be the best thing you do for your Tenno career ;)

 

Some people just enjoy burning through content as fast as they can. I can understand why DE let them; they aren't the target market. DE want to target the players that do savor content, because they're around far longer and more frequently and it will eventually get those players to work together, as is the intent of Warframe as a whole.

[DSMK2]

I'm trying not to talk about individual play-style, I have no qualms if I'm playing with a rush squad or not. I'm trying to say that rushing feels a bit too natural (I often find myself gravitating towards the objective, not too far from my squad), I'm guessing it's coming from the level design, because there's very little situations during the level that cause us to slow down; it's far too easy to brush past content without much thought.

 

I'm seeing: You're running through a level on Phobos, but suddenly you find yourself hampered by the sand, making you unable to catch your footing while sprinting. The Grineer Hellions make use of this, raining munitions down on you, as you try to make your way out of the loose sand.

 

Right now, it's always possible to run through and that option is easily taken.

 

I don't recall that innate rush feeling during the Orokin Void levels, maybe because of the various traps along the way, obstacles, and a distinct feeling that all the corrupted are a pain and really should be killed before moving on.

Edited August 14, 2013 by DSMK2

[neKroMancer]

I think the same way.

 

Warframe's level design in a non-void area does promote rushing. There are no innate traps, locked door that require cipher, no natural hazard apart from occasional fire/ice hazard. Player can get from the beginning to artifact to extraction without obstruction.

 

This represent a part of one of the biggest problem in Warframe : Repetitiveness. When a player can complete a mission this way, it requires minimal mental challenge and therefore boring. 

 

I think even when rushing, player should also be challenged by the game through map design and type of enemies that constantly trying to draw you into a trap like the Commander.

[TheHeraldXII]

How are we defining rushing here? By rushing do you mean ignoring every enemy in the level? Do you mean only taking on enemies that get in the way and ignoring loot rooms? Ignoring enemies is a serious issue in the game when it turns into ignoring all the enemies but focusing in on the objective rather than searching every last locker for goodies isn't really a problem as such.

As for the level design supporting rushing, that seems a little off base, what with all the "buddy doors" and tight spaces where you can't avoid the enemies with knockdown effects. I don't see how the Void discourages rushing with it's level design with the traps. If anything, the underwhelming enemies in the Void (they use the weakest enemies of each faction, c'mon) and constant trap popups make rushing more appealing.

The way I see it, the issue isn't with the level design not setting a pace but instead there is a 1-2-3 combo of:

a) Players focussing on RNG related goals, meaning repeating the same action to aquire a reward. This leads to people just wanting to get it over with and caring less about the actual gameplay than the reward at the end.

b) Co-op groups being WAY too powerful, meaning that the enemy soldiers are basically as dangerous as the guardrails and are treated like scenery dressing.

c) When in a multiplayer scenario, cooperative of competetive, people get competetive. Everyone wants to be the fastest, noone wants to lag behind and get left out and as noted in point b), everyone is so powerful that you're not cooperating, you're competing to see who can kill the entire room of enemies with one skill first.

The pacing is absolutely fine in solo, enemies push you to take them out so you don't get flanked, because that's actually a danger. Enemies you ignore in front of you can actually kill you, which means that you have to react accordingly instead of just ignoring them and letting them spread their damage over 2-4 seperate targets, not even dropping shields.

Basically, the game is way too easy and the players are going to get competetive and that seems to be the cause of most rushing.

[TargetDummy]

There will be rushers while game contains farming. Simple question: would you be slow and steady in mission walkthrough after beating Vor+Krill for like 50+ times to get Meter Blade?

Yeah, while I'm playing for fun, like beating some mission in complite stealth, I can be slow. Kill every enemy in melee without detection... But when I have goal of some reward, that have very low chance to obtain, I WILL rush, no matter what. Rushing Raid II Void for Forma BP - definitely yes.

Edited August 14, 2013 by TargetDummy

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

I don't have this problem at all, because I have a clan where we all agree before a mission if it's a rush mission or a loot mission.

Going into pugs with zero coordination results in behaviours all over the map, some people are nice, other people are stupid, that's the way it goes. If you can't handle the RNG of pugs, you shouldn't play them to begin with.

[Cabadath5]

Repetitive gameplay.You kill the same things over and over again with little to no challenge.Even on higher level missions it eventually gets too easy.If there was an actual risk of getting shot to death and if the AI was smart and fun to play against people would not be capable of rushing past everything.

 

Also a big nerf to slides would help against rushing, but still thats not the main problem.Its not about making people UNABLE to rush, its about making players unable AND unwilling to rush.

 

Imagine having to kill every mob in a room before being able to go to the next room.That wouldn't make the game better, it would just turn the grind up to 11.

 

Also there's nothing "cooperative" about this "co-op" game.Sure playing with others does make it a lot easyer but unless its endless defense thats it.

 

This game really needs some other type of difficulty other than DURP HUR TROOPER lvl 999-shoot him half an hour.

[Syndrella]

2 Choices have about. Find peoples whom like that playing style that you want to play and then is okay or the developers need to make more different mission which contain rush and grind and you can choose what mode do you like.

[Katsuni]

Rushing, in and of itself, isn't a problem... but as stated, the tilesets simply lack rooms which are designed in such a way as to slow down the player significantly.

 

In some missions, this is fine, in others, not so much. An exterminate mission, especially an overleveled one, it's nice to go slow and methodical; I've found I rather love soloing T3 void exterminate missions. It requires carefully moving through the area and wiping out enemies in a well paced manner, rather than run and gun. The void missions do, however, have a lot of things which slow you down significantly; laser traps, slowing fields, loot rooms, large numbers of powerful enemies that can't be easily run past, etc. These are also punctuated by the occasional loot room that's set up as parkour timed runs; get through to the end before the door closes, and this allows for a rush of speed and skill when needed.

 

Anyway, I digress; speed can be fine, but in your normal levels, there really is only the one pace: the pace the player sets. The environments really aren't designed so as to impact gameplay significantly, which is kind of strange when you think about it. Normally you'd build a room that encourages speed, and then another room which encourages slower movement and carefully making your way past traps, enemies and turrets, or sneaking through. You'd typically put a combination of these together, with the RNG preferring to group similar rooms together, rather than randomly swapping back and forth with no real control. If you're going fast, you want to keep that momentum going, not screech to a halt, and the reverse is also true.

 

Mostly, I think that there should simply be more rooms which intentionally alter the pacing of how the players move through it, but that the tilesets be set to only appear in missions that make sense. If you're doing an exterminate mission, yeah, implement stuff to slow you down significantly. If you're trying to rescue a captive, add rooms which encourage going faster to pump up the adrenaline of trying to escape.

 

Is it so much to ask for rooms which make sense in relation to the type of mission you're on? =P

[litlit]

If you don't like rushing, get into a coordinated looting/exploration group instead of using PUGs. PUGs will almost never want to spend any more time in a mission than necessary.

 

DE don't "need" to do anything here; Warframe is cooperative by nature, so you'll need to get together with a group of similar players if you want to avoid the whole rushing deal.

Posts like these miss the point.

 

"If you don't like it, do something else."

 

It doesn't matter if the OP likes rushing, or if I want to discourage others from rushing because rushers ruin my experience. The prevalence of rushing simply illustrates a fundamental design flaw.

 

On any mission that doesn't require an objective to defend, the single most efficient strategy is rushing. At the same time, it's also the most rewarding strategy (since non-rare component farming, void keys, XP, and mod farming are all done on endless or mobile defense).

 

In the metagame, the amount of grind players are faced with encourages them to rush to do it more efficiently. Additionally, players learn that defense and mobile defense nodes give a much better return on time spent vs rewards than other mission types.

 

In the actual gameplay, players find that they are given immediate and consistent rewards for rushing -- they can see themselves progress more quickly to a boss or defense node they want to farm, they receive an alert reward at the end, etc. This has the psychological effect of making players wonder "why am I wasting my time" if they ever choose to take a slower pace in these mission types.

 

This creates dissonance between developer intent and player experience: DE has created an arcade-y FPS with engaging gameplay, while at the same time creating mechanics -- in the metagame and the gameplay itself -- that both encourage and consistently reward players for skipping as much of that gameplay as possible. This is flawed design.

 

The solution is to create engaging and rewarding alternatives to rushing. Not by creating contrivances that force players to stop rushing (as DE has been doing in the Arid Fear event, for example, by simply creating levels that spawn an increased amount of player-disabling enemies -- Shockwave MOAs, in this case).

 

Rushing is no different than any other playstyle; it's neither good nor bad taken by itself. For myself, I like rushing. I'm at the airlock in under a minute 99% of the time outside of rescue and defense missions. In context, regarding all mission types except defense and rescue, the prevalence of rushing points to poor and inconsistent game design. Again, players should not be forced to stop rushing; rather, aspects of the game that cause players to think rushing is the "best" option in so many cases should be changed to reward different behavior and incentivize a wide variety of playstyles.

Edited August 14, 2013 by litlir

[GTG3000]

Rushing should be a viable option, me thinks. We're freaking space ninjas, we're mobile and agile, the game shouldn't be about us, cleaning out room after room, cutting through enemies like hot chainsaw through butter. 

 

IMO, The enemies should be posing a big threat on any level, with teammates having to deliberately cover eachother if they choose to loot and search for crates as opposed to avoiding combat, but current rewards are pushing players to slow down and search crates, while enemies rarely appear threatening.

 

Remember when Lancers had an insane rate of fire? Call me a pervert,  but I LOVED the difficulty.

[Numot]

DE may need to start creating actual maps out of their tile-sets rather than relying on the random map approach. As it stands every mission plays the same because every mission is the same; random tiles from a pool, with random spawns. You don't have unique unit encounters, like you always encounter a squad of heavies with back up 3/4ths the way through map whatever, and you don't have a reason really to explore the map as it is.

 

The whole random map deal causes a lot of issues, no fixed pacing, stealth is impossible to perfect outside of doing everything to remain invisible, no memorable moments (hey want to play Nakki? I really like how -blank- occurs there), no reason to really explore because there are no alternate routes to the objective nor anything unique to find along the way.

[Meltina]

Simple solution reward kills in non defense sceniarios. The kill reward is so horrible its not even worth shooting the enemies as you run by. Have bosses drop extra loot if you have x many kills or map unalerted by the time he activates. Make enemy drops actualy matter. Give incentive not to rush past enemies. Stick a mini boss that drops a garunteed rare mod with a possibility to drop blueprints. Make the rushers pause to kill him because they want to kill him.

 

Then to prevent turtling give other incentives like a mission time bonus and extra drops for getting to the boss in x time. Make the rewards for both kills and time high enough where you want to get both sets of rewards. If it is most time effecent to do both people will kill stuff while going through at a good pace.

 

Don't punish rushers or restrict them but give them incentive to slow down. Then if the players are speeding through the map while killing everything you can't complain about them going too fast.

 

 

Also let secondary extraction points unlock for people who fallen behind so they don't have to rush the whole map in 1 min to get there.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Meltina

[litlit]

Simple solution reward kills in non defense sceniarios. The kill reward is so horrible its not even worth shooting the enemies as you run by. Have bosses drop extra loot if you have x many kills or map unalerted by the time he activates. Make enemy drops actualy matter. Give incentive not to rush past enemies. Stick a mini boss that drops a garunteed rare mod with a possibility to drop blueprints. Make the rushers pause to kill him because they want to kill him.

 

Then to prevent turtling give other incentives like a mission time bonus and extra drops for getting to the boss in x time. Make the rewards for both kills and time high enough where you want to get both sets of rewards. If it is most time effecent to do both people will kill stuff while going through at a good pace.

 

Don't punish rushers or restrict them but give them incentive to slow down. Then if the players are speeding through the map while killing everything you can't complain about them going too fast.

 

 

Also let secondary extraction points unlock for people who fallen behind so they don't have to rush the whole map in 1 min to get there.

Agreed.

 

Remember the commander bug that was just fixed yesterday (8/14)? The drop table for Grineer Commanders was messed up somehow, so killing them was similar to killing Vay Hek -- a chance for a Trinity blueprint, 100% mod drop, and a 100% component drop (with a high chance of rares).

 

Know what I saw a lot of while this bug was still active? Groups of players cooperating with each other to go slowly through rescue missions -- yeah, rescue missions, the most hated type -- hunting down all the Commanders. It was great to see high rank players doing missions on Saturn and Earth in a squad with rank 2, 3, even rank 1 players, and not leaving the new players in the dust rushing to the airlock in 30 seconds. High ranking players playing with low rank, in a genuinely cooperative manner, helping them get drops and protecting them from huge swarms and heavy enemies.

 

It's been tested and proven: give players a good reason, and they will choose to stop rushing all the time. Plus, it fosters a spirit of cooperation instead of "ok 42 seconds into the game and I'm at the airlock. No idea where these rank 2 Excaliburs are, so I'm going to AFK and make coffee"

 

[edit]:

 

Once some incentive like this is in place to give players a good reason not to rush constantly, then you can start adding stuff that forces players to take it a bit more slowly (to a degree).

 

What I mean is, currently, adding more tandem doors and enemies such as Scorpions and Shockwave MOAs just makes the game more irritating, because there is almost never a good reason to do anything but get to the end as quickly as possible.

 

But, once there is a good reason to do so, encountering disabling enemies and such isn't nearly as frustrating, because the compulsion to simply rush as quickly as possible is greatly diminished.

Edited August 15, 2013 by litlir

[DSMK2]

I'm worried that incentivising combat that way might lead to reward over-saturation; thus players are able to acquire and burn through (equipment and warframe based) content quickly, getting their desired mods, materials, credits, and blueprints in a relatively short time span. I'm not against the idea though, as Litir mentions that it can 'bait' players into experiencing more of the level; but I predict players that have 'everything' will be less inclined to react to the 'bait'.

 

Stick a mini boss that drops a garunteed rare mod with a possibility to drop blueprints. Make the rushers pause to kill him because they want to kill him.

 

That could extend into making uncommon, rare, and elite enemies into party bags (though they should become something other than a bullet sponge); and have the common enemies always drop materials in small amounts. That could get players to kill and loot as much as they can.

 

Unlike regular shooters where there is a overarching goal, and especially if a game has inventory/crafting/pick-a-equipment features... I'm starting to get a sense of what I felt from playing Borderlands, with the gun and equipment drops coming from various enemies.

 

Tying this with level design, while killing enemies should be rewarding, it might not alleviate the level pacing problem much, I'm staring at you Nova! As a powerful squad can still be a steamroller on NOS, smushing and collecting everything relatively quickly en route to the objective, turning the level itself into a blur as long as the tiles just remain a basic play space, the level's natural pacing isn't going to be strong if it's based on what enemy spawns.

 

TBH, I think the natural pacing of Warframe is always going to be fast; Tenno are extremely mobile and powerful.

 

There needs to be areas within the level when players absolutely need to kill enemies to survive and progress through the mission, tiles which put a squad into peril, or tile scripted 'encounters'; all akin to situations in shooters where you're pinned down by heavy machine gun emplacement, artillery, traversing a factory floor, etc. They should still flow with combat, unlike the sudden tandem locked doors... And possibly elevators.

 

Squads/players can run their own pace for the most part, but be prepared to slow down and take a challenge, be more than a super space ninja killing machine as you traverse what the level throws your way.

 

[EDIT:]

 

I'm getting the feeling that the way point system is the major problem, augmented by level design. Because its a beacon which strongly draws players to the objective, another element that further makes level pacing trivial. I'm probably going to make a separate thread about this.

Edited August 16, 2013 by DSMK2