5 Days of Conclave: Suggestions

[ashaceawe]

Being a completionist, I feel a sad twinge looking at my standing in Conclave so I decided to sell my soul to it, for 5 days. Here are my thoughts after that period.

1. Matchmaking can really stand to improve. I understand that currently it is purely a public server and anyone can join, and this is why you get the average skill tier player and some alien with inordinate kills. This is such a turn-off. Other PVP games may feature a function where you can select a user and prevent future matchmaking with them. This would greatly help and balance the current system, were it implemented.

2. Warframe powers really should not limited by energy levels. You play the specific frame so that you can utilise their abilities against others. A simple case of Character vs Character, Frame vs Frame. What should be done, is that set cool-downs replace the ability usage. There really is no need for another gate through energy consumption. It kills fun.

3. Weapons should all deal similar damage, and no weapon should be able to instagib a player. If weapon's current damage numbers, at least change the health of the frames such that it takes more than a single shot to kill, thereby evening the playing field and to starve off campers.

4. Frame Fighter. While it was just a fun project, the reception it received was much more positive than Conclave. Why? Because it centred around a level playing field: Players controlled a character with similar movesets, similar damage, and one or two special moves unique to that frame. Set damage from moves and the ability to reduce/nullify damage through blocking, and opening up for a counter. Now, applying that to Conclave,  a counter ability on all characters that can be activated to prevent damage for a set amount of time (with a cooldown) and bullet jumping having charges and a cool down(say 2 charges that replenish every 30 seconds). Warframe's movement system prides itself in it's fluidity and variety, and spamming bullet jump is neither skillful nor representative of that (it shows superb button mashing ability though). What will be considered skill, is how one utilises cooldowns on one's abilities and the counter ability to minimise damage to self while dealing out damage. In this case, less is more. An unlimited bullet jumping mechanism, while useful in PVE, is nothing but an eyesore and headache in PVP.

Naturally, die-hard conclave players will scoff at my suggestions, calling them ludicrous and heresy, but if one refuses to acknowledge possible improvements and advancements for the betterment of the player base in general, which is a goal DE constantly strives to achieve daily, it would be best to retire such a derelict and selfish game mode that serves to feed the pride of an obnoxious few. If a mode is stagnant, it deserves retirement.

Just my two ducats worth, 5 days of Conclave grinding.

[Nighttide77]

1) yep

2) meh.  Suggested before...it's either "the skill is in resource management of your energy" or "using specific skills at the right time" (which can pretty much be the same).  You blow your ult, you'll basically have a "cooldown" till you can use it again because you have to build up the energy.  Being able to spam various skills has already been worked+balanced as far as I can tell, so spamming low energy cost skills doesn't always equal a win.

3) which weapon(s) are you talking about?  I only know of one or two that can instagib on a headshot, of which I'm still against headshots in Conclave, anyway, but that's my deal.

4) I'm not sure Frame Fighter was received better because it "leveled" the playing field.  People who play those sorts of fighters will have an obvious advantage, and the more people practice the more they'll be able to pwn anyone else, just like Conclave currently is.  Or Lunaro.  There are people who panic and start spamming their parkour.  Then there are people who hone it to an art that are also the ones topping kills.  Diminishing movement doesn't diminish those players' ability to frag...nor keep them from finding work-arounds like air melee or sliding air melee.

2 hours ago, ashaceawe said:

Naturally, die-hard conclave players will scoff at my suggestions, calling them ludicrous and heresy

What sort of toxic environment do you think Conclave is?  Most Conclavers I know are much different from toxic PvPers in other games.  There is a sense of honor amongst Conclave veterans.  Suggestions are good, newbies and new perspectives are good.  The only thing that isn't welcome is "Warframe is a PvE game" and "PvP is cancer" and "PvP has no place in Warframe"...even though even PvE has leader boards and trophies and the like.

[JustAnotherNormalPerson]

6 hours ago, ashaceawe said:

1. Matchmaking can really stand to improve. you get the average skill tier player and some alien with inordinate kills. This is such a turn-off. Other PVP games may feature a function where you can select a user and prevent future matchmaking with them.

So... about the matchmaking, this mode has few player as it is. They would probably be able to make proper matchmaking if there were more players, but there isn't. Secondly there is the "recruit conditioning" function that serves to shelter the new players as they learn how the basics of conclave. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by -BG-Hema

[Talonflight]

7 hours ago, Nighttide77 said:

1) yep

2) meh.  Suggested before...it's either "the skill is in resource management of your energy" or "using specific skills at the right time" (which can pretty much be the same).  You blow your ult, you'll basically have a "cooldown" till you can use it again because you have to build up the energy.  Being able to spam various skills has already been worked+balanced as far as I can tell, so spamming low energy cost skills doesn't always equal a win.

3) which weapon(s) are you talking about?  I only know of one or two that can instagib on a headshot, of which I'm still against headshots in Conclave, anyway, but that's my deal.

4) I'm not sure Frame Fighter was received better because it "leveled" the playing field.  People who play those sorts of fighters will have an obvious advantage, and the more people practice the more they'll be able to pwn anyone else, just like Conclave currently is.  Or Lunaro.  There are people who panic and start spamming their parkour.  Then there are people who hone it to an art that are also the ones topping kills.  Diminishing movement doesn't diminish those players' ability to frag...nor keep them from finding work-arounds like air melee or sliding air melee.

What sort of toxic environment do you think Conclave is?  Most Conclavers I know are much different from toxic PvPers in other games.  There is a sense of honor amongst Conclave veterans.  Suggestions are good, newbies and new perspectives are good.  The only thing that isn't welcome is "Warframe is a PvE game" and "PvP is cancer" and "PvP has no place in Warframe"...even though even PvE has leader boards and trophies and the like.

I DO think Warframe Conclave does need changes. The simple fact that only 5% of the playerbase plays it compared to other normally-CO-OP games PvP modes much higher percentages shows it. Its just in the numbers.
 

One of the main reasons people dislike Conclave I can agree with IS the nonstop bunny-hopping and bullet jumping. Adding charges, cooldowns, or hell, even reintroducing the Stamina bar, would be at least an effort in drawing in a larger playerbase. 

[Dusteon]

8 minutes ago, Talonflight said:

I DO think Warframe Conclave does need changes. The simple fact that only 5% of the playerbase plays it compared to other normally-CO-OP games PvP modes much higher percentages shows it. Its just in the numbers.
 

One of the main reasons people dislike Conclave I can agree with IS the nonstop bunny-hopping and bullet jumping. Adding charges, cooldowns, or hell, even reintroducing the Stamina bar, would be at least an effort in drawing in a larger playerbase. 

I'm not sure there's much value in changing Conclave as is. The current draw for the people who play it for non loot reasons is the high skill, extremely high mobility action. Removing or weakening that makes the core gameplay worse for those players, with no guarantee of getting more players in.

[HC217]

14 minutes ago, Talonflight said:

I DO think Warframe Conclave does need changes. The simple fact that only 5% of the playerbase plays it compared to other normally-CO-OP games PvP modes much higher percentages shows it. Its just in the numbers.
 

One of the main reasons people dislike Conclave I can agree with IS the nonstop bunny-hopping and bullet jumping. Adding charges, cooldowns, or hell, even reintroducing the Stamina bar, would be at least an effort in drawing in a larger playerbase. 

that assumes DE even wants to cater to pvp players. The entire reason conclave even exists is due to some players asking for it back in the early days of open beta. they were apathetic to it then, they're apathetic to it now. they have a small team devoted to pvp simply because those 5% of people asked and it served to extend lore. They make small balance tweaks to it, slowly add in weapons and frames, and made sure not to create non-cosmetic exclusives. And as far as I'm concerned, i like using the same PvE mechanics i'm used to with balanced weapons in a fast-paced combat system. In other words, the main changes to PvP should and have been numbers tweaks and power changes where absolutely necessary. This allows someone who likes their frame in PvE to jump into PvP without having to relearn mechanics. It's supporting content, and that's why I like it. Hell, it made me really appreciate core mechanics and really working on aim/timing melee combos, the things it's lorewise meant to do. I think new game modes would be good, balance tweaks if needed, and ability tweaks where absolutely necessary, but changing core game mechanics would be a disservice to the people that really like warframe itself and play or might play PvP.

[Nighttide77]

15 hours ago, Talonflight said:

One of the main reasons people dislike Conclave I can agree with IS the nonstop bunny-hopping and bullet jumping. Adding charges, cooldowns, or hell, even reintroducing the Stamina bar, would be at least an effort in drawing in a larger playerbase. 

Another effort to drawing in a larger playerbase would be to make it easier to level up weapons and frames in Conclave.  That and providing access to more resources that allow players to progress in the game entirely through PvP.

I would agree that the nonstop hopping and mobility is a large cause of Conclave's lack of popularity, but it's inherently part of the game.  In order to be most competitive, a person kinda needs a 144Hz monitor and a mouse with more than five functions.  With that, Conclave won't be enjoyed by the casual audience unless Conclave only uses variants like an instagib arca plasmor (of which would make bunny hopping pointless and grant maximum aim forgiveness while changing the strategic key to winning), or allows the use of programmed assistance (aka aimbots and auto-clickers).  Other options are key map alterations like a level with an electrified low-ceiling that punishes vertical movement, or perhaps low gravity such that players have more predictable movements.  It all comes down to making it less of a challenge for players with average equipment and less mental processing ability.  In my opinion, Conclave would not have trouble with popularity if everyone owned the best PCs and had the most capable brains such that bunny-hopping targets were not even a challenge to 360-noscope.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Nighttide77

[Talonflight]

10 hours ago, Nighttide77 said:

Another effort to drawing in a larger playerbase would be to make it easier to level up weapons and frames in Conclave.  That and providing access to more resources that allow players to progress in the game entirely through PvP.

I would agree that the nonstop hopping and mobility is a large cause of Conclave's lack of popularity, but it's inherently part of the game.  In order to be most competitive, a person kinda needs a 144Hz monitor and a mouse with more than five functions.  With that, Conclave won't be enjoyed by the casual audience unless Conclave only uses variants like an instagib arca plasmor (of which would make bunny hopping pointless and grant maximum aim forgiveness while changing the strategic key to winning), or allows the use of programmed assistance (aka aimbots and auto-clickers).  Other options are key map alterations like a level with an electrified low-ceiling that punishes vertical movement, or perhaps low gravity such that players have more predictable movements.  It all comes down to making it less of a challenge for players with average equipment and less mental processing ability.  In my opinion, Conclave would not have trouble with popularity if everyone owned the best PCs and had the most capable brains such that bunny-hopping targets were not even a challenge to 360-noscope.

if a game requires outside assistance and third party programs in order to make it playable, then it isn't fundamentally a functional mode. Additions like aimbots or autoclickers are not in any way shape or form a solution. And not everyone has a god-tier PC and can whatever you mean by "having less mental processing ability". I'm not even gonna touch that line.

I honestly think adding a 'cooldown' of sorts or even reintroducing the stamina bar to limit PvP mobility would be the best solution. It limits the mobility-spam factor and forces people to think more tactically about their positions and attacks.

[Nighttide77]

1 hour ago, Talonflight said:

if a game requires outside assistance and third party programs in order to make it playable, then it isn't fundamentally a functional mode. Additions like aimbots or autoclickers are not in any way shape or form a solution. And not everyone has a god-tier PC and can whatever you mean by "having less mental processing ability". I'm not even gonna touch that line.

I honestly think adding a 'cooldown' of sorts or even reintroducing the stamina bar to limit PvP mobility would be the best solution. It limits the mobility-spam factor and forces people to think more tactically about their positions and attacks.

Well...I was actually kinda thinking back to my Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear days when aim assist was enabled for multiplayer...in other words I was condoning DE's implementation of software that helped players shoot...they already have it in Mesa.

Like it or not, AI is coming for everyone, and it is going to augment everyone's way of interacting with the world, whether real or virtual.  But like headshot damage, that's a personal thing, so I guess it doesn't exactly fall in line with the original post.  I was hoping maybe you or other people would catch onto that.  No big deal.

Fortnite does implement an invisible "stamina" system where every subsequent jump is shorter than the previous so eventually a person will succumb to standing and shooting...but it doesn't stop people like me who can shoot and jump when it only takes 2 tactical shotgun body shots to frag most.  It just means you have less time to push out your damage before your defensive mobility runs out...which just increases the learning curve...or in some perspectives increases the skill curves.  I'm not trying to convince you of your perspective, but I do suggest you try playing Fortnite if you have not already...and if you have you should totally add me as a friend, heh.  You will most likely see my perspective in that those who are able to aim well *cough cough Sky cough cough Pythadragon cough cough lots of veterans cough cough** (phew coughing fit), will not suffer in the least from a mobility nerf/bar and we'll still arrive at the original issue, which is skill disparity.

[Talonflight]

On 2018-05-06 at 1:47 AM, Nighttide77 said:

Well...I was actually kinda thinking back to my Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear days when aim assist was enabled for multiplayer...in other words I was condoning DE's implementation of software that helped players shoot...they already have it in Mesa.

Like it or not, AI is coming for everyone, and it is going to augment everyone's way of interacting with the world, whether real or virtual.  But like headshot damage, that's a personal thing, so I guess it doesn't exactly fall in line with the original post.  I was hoping maybe you or other people would catch onto that.  No big deal.

Fortnite does implement an invisible "stamina" system where every subsequent jump is shorter than the previous so eventually a person will succumb to standing and shooting...but it doesn't stop people like me who can shoot and jump when it only takes 2 tactical shotgun body shots to frag most.  It just means you have less time to push out your damage before your defensive mobility runs out...which just increases the learning curve...or in some perspectives increases the skill curves.  I'm not trying to convince you of your perspective, but I do suggest you try playing Fortnite if you have not already...and if you have you should totally add me as a friend, heh.  You will most likely see my perspective in that those who are able to aim well *cough cough Sky cough cough Pythadragon cough cough lots of veterans cough cough** (phew coughing fit), will not suffer in the least from a mobility nerf/bar and we'll still arrive at the original issue, which is skill disparity.

I'm going to choose not to touch on that bit about "AI is coming for everyone" because a game, at its core, should be able to be played by a single human person. Just my personal thoughts.

I don't play Fortnight, sadly, so I can't say much about their implementation. However, I can say that every single person who I've spoken to about the skill disparity in Conclave has mentioned the severe bullet-jump spam that occurs. Obviously the addition of some sort of limiter will not remove ALL disparity; if it did, there would be no point to getting good at the game. If you're good at it, you're good at it, simple as that. But the problem IS there when the skill gap is so wide that it feels impossible to newer players. I'm not talking about REMOVING a gap between players. I'm talking about making that gap slightly more traversible for newer players so that they can START getting good. Its hard for some of the new guys to be able to play enough and practice to "gid gud" when 70% of the time their opponant has a 0.3% of a second appearance on their screen before they fall dead.

[Nighttide77]

13 hours ago, Talonflight said:

I don't play Fortnight, sadly, so I can't say much about their implementation. However, I can say that every single person who I've spoken to about the skill disparity in Conclave has mentioned the severe bullet-jump spam that occurs. Obviously the addition of some sort of limiter will not remove ALL disparity; if it did, there would be no point to getting good at the game. If you're good at it, you're good at it, simple as that. But the problem IS there when the skill gap is so wide that it feels impossible to newer players. I'm not talking about REMOVING a gap between players. I'm talking about making that gap slightly more traversible for newer players so that they can START getting good. Its hard for some of the new guys to be able to play enough and practice to "gid gud" when 70% of the time their opponant has a 0.3% of a second appearance on their screen before they fall dead.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, then.  I don't believe limiting mobility will give any newbies a better chance against veterans.  If anything, I think implementing a stamina mechanic against double-jumping and bullet-jumping would only create another thing for newbies to try to manage that veterans will already know how to work around, like wall-hopping.  Instead, the best way to make the game more accessible to new players is for it to be more competitively forgiving, like weapons that are considered "newb-tubes" (low aim requirement but low damage), aim assistance, or a greater variety of weapons/tactics (like proximity mines...so you don't have to win by out-shooting, you win by out-smarting).

If you feel the need to provide a further rebuttal, please feel free.  I don't think I'll have more to say so your statements will be the last on the topic.

[Talonflight]

On 2018-05-12 at 4:55 PM, Nighttide77 said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, then.  I don't believe limiting mobility will give any newbies a better chance against veterans.  If anything, I think implementing a stamina mechanic against double-jumping and bullet-jumping would only create another thing for newbies to try to manage that veterans will already know how to work around, like wall-hopping.  Instead, the best way to make the game more accessible to new players is for it to be more competitively forgiving, like weapons that are considered "newb-tubes" (low aim requirement but low damage), aim assistance, or a greater variety of weapons/tactics (like proximity mines...so you don't have to win by out-shooting, you win by out-smarting).

If you feel the need to provide a further rebuttal, please feel free.  I don't think I'll have more to say so your statements will be the last on the topic.

I would actually agree with you that a greater variety of weapons would be a good thing, as might weapon modifications such as Silencers to remove appearance on map when shooting, etc. Grenades/mines would be a welcome addition to the game as it is.