Affinity Awards Should Be Adjusted (Spy, Capture & Rescue Edition)

[Gandergear]

To preface the affinity needed to level up a single weapon that is in your inventory is 450k xp. In reality you only need to gather 200k xp due to the bonus xp mechanic, assuming you don't lose any bonus xp by failing the mission or dying. In addition if you only have the one weapon equipped it seems that on average 1200 enemies killed via affinity share is what's required to get a weapon from 0-30. This equates to ~15 waves of hydron or 2 rounds of bere, although both overfill slightly in most cases.

Undeniably the best way to grind xp is by playing defense, interception (see, bere instead), and survival. Many players know that Hydron is the king of weapon and frame grinding. The point of this thread is to discuss alternatives to this. On average a focused game of hydron/bere/mot to max out a weapon will take around 15/10/15 minutes respectively (my times may be off for bere/mot because i don't play them anymore), so it's no wonder that this is what most players prefer to do when they grind fodder or forma. It's my firm belief that every game mode should be a viable way to level equipment quickly, especially the non-endless gamemodes.

The thread may be updated with new mission type analysis, stay tuned if you are interested!

ESO was briefly analyzed and I found on the first pug attempt (i was a buff rhino playing with nuke equinox) that I finished the weapon in 2 zones (5m). Due to how the mission is structured however I won't put baselines in relation to this analysis.

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Spy: In my opinion spy is meant to be played stealthily, the values calculated are 0 kills, all 3 vaults undetected. XP's gained exclude the bonus xp because the values will be correlated to the 200k xp mark we need to meet. XP's found are what get funneled into exclusively a single weapon at the end of the mission when it is the only weapon equipped (in this case, the only weapon that was equipped was a baza). Some runs may have affinity boosts from the challenge that was not considered, but I believe the contribution on average is between 750-1250xp to the total, in other words negligible. Lastly, the runs are all done solo and are done without an affinity booster.

Spoiler

Sedna Kappa: 18k  xp

Lua Pavlov: 27k xp

Kuva Pago: 27k xp -- 4m 41s

Of note is the speed I've done Pago in, for an experienced player (but not a speedrunner), sub 5 minutes isn't bad for any spy mission and is about what I average doing solo, lower skill players take longer, but they'd take longer for the Hydron example as well. To get enough xp to max out my weapon I would have to do 8 kuva spies, taking approximately 40m. And that's only if I do each one undetected.

In my opinion to be an alternative to the efficiency of hydron/bere spy's affinity award should be increased across the board by a factor of 2.5. This means that a player would only have to run 3 perfect spy missions (9 perfect vaults) in order to max out a single weapon (doing lua/kuva). rather than 8 times.

Having this reward path encourages players to learn spy if they want in on this alternative playstyle, it may take a new player up to 15m just to get 2/3 vaults in a single mission while being detected on each one, especially since lua and kuva spy aren't easy on the first few attempts. Players will have to invest into a skill wall to receive efficient xp gains rather than only needing to pub into hydron.

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Rescue: Rescue can be played in two 'efficient' ways, fully stealth, fully loud. The analysis follows the same as spy. In all cases all wardens will be killed for their affinity bonus. Base Reward includes sub-20 kills and includes stealth killing all wardens (loud does not). More xp can be gained by stealth-chaining but that still wouldn't be as efficient as just doing an adaro so its effects are neglected. Unfortunately data is kinda hard to calculate given how stealth is utilized to get some of the xp.

Spoiler

Base Reward

Sedna Naga: 27k xp -- 3m 20s (15 enemies killed)

Lua Zeipel: 41.8k xp -- 3m 36s (22 enemies killed, all but 2 wardens killed with 5x mult)

Kuva Garus: 49k xp - 4m 47s (32 enemies killed)

Loud Reward

Sedna Naga: 23k xp -- 4m (not all wardens stealth killed, 66 enemies killed, detected) (based on this no other 'loud' data will be gathered)

 

For what we see the expected xp we can get from rescue is much higher than spy, although a major contributing factor is the use of stealth kills on the wardens, which to me is an intentional game mechanic for this game mode. In order to up the effectiveness of rescue and to reward skillfull play, the number of wardens should be increased by roughly 50%. This would bring the expected affinity gain for a stealthy-rescue to be around 70k, in addition to probably bringing the average mission time (for garus at least) to 5m and lua to 4m. Lua however is considered an outlier because currently its mission is bugged, releasing the operative on the first portal opened, regardless of its contents. Finally Garus would reward ~15m with one fully leveled weapon, with the increased number of wardens being considered.

Killing all the wardens and rescuing the operative do not reward a substantial affinity, however because the wardens are worth much higher affinity than other units this offers a fun dynamic of sneaking up on prison guards, which will become more challenging the more there are.

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Capture: So capture is just bad, like really bad. I mean you could play it like an exterminate but  then you of course just get less controllable spawns. All 3 missions tested gave the same affinity reward and all were only capturing the target and then extracting. More xp could be gained by stealth-killing of course, but then it'd just be the adaro argument all over again.

Spoiler

Kuva Nabuk: 2.5k xp 

Lua Copernicus: 2.5k xp

Sedna Ruslaka: 2.5k xp

For capture to become a unique viable affinity farming experience something has to be added. I propose adding optional caches or datavaults to the map similar to sabotage/exterminate and how void and lua missions have challenge rooms. Having challenge vaults would be a unique way to earn some extra affinity and rewards from a new loot table (or an old one).

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Possible Abuses/Predicted FAQ (any interesting questions may be added to this list)

Spoiler

 

-AFK abusers- universally disliked and universally won't be mentioned anymore

-Three experts can do spy really fast- Likely even the most efficient 3 mans can't do faster than sub 2:30, even then it'd take tremendous skill and effort to the point where I believe they earned the faster xp.

-Solo players don't deserve good xp- I'm just going to say no to this question, please don't ask it.

-Spy isn't meant for xp- refer to the preface

-Spy has unique rewards that outweigh the xp you'd get in defense- besides referring to the preface I'd like to point out that in my opinion the rewards for spy aren't useful once you get to the point where you're actively grinding xp, and that relic rewards are much preferred.

-Spy is the most efficient xp grind for solo players, if you get some stealth kills- Doing the testing I found that a player would have to do 4 6-minute stealth missions perfectly and with stealth killing 50 enemies in each one to max out a single weapon (24m). Alternatively they could just run adaro taking 9m to max out their weapon in a single mission. As such I find that spy is NOT the most efficient, nor close to being the most efficient, way to grind xp.

 

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Coming Soon? Sabotage

Let me know what you think and remember to keep your thoughts organized to prevent people from misunderstanding your viewpoint!

Edited May 30, 2018 by Gandergear
Rescue Update Added!

[EDM774]

As a solo XP farmer myself I applaud you sir and I love the idea! But in a multiplayer oriented game I doubt us solo players will get some love (a man can always dream though 🙂 ) .

[Katinka]

1 hour ago, Gandergear said:

-Spy isn't meant for xp- refer to the preface

Even outside of what you've said in your preface, Spy is meant to be for xp.  It was mentioned in devstreams that the Spy rooms would be rewarding in terms of xp and even more so when stealthy.  It is noticeable that Spy has higher Affinity rewards than other missions that haven't had the same level of rework e.g. Capture or Rescue, and I am in favour of a move towards rewards based on mission objectives over mass slaughter.  The rewards may not yet be enough to truly be competitive but Spy is currently the best of a bad lot.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Katinka

[taiiat]

uhh

but Spy is already the fastest way to Level a single Weapon in Solo play?
your 'correct way of playing Spy' is objectively wrong. you should be getting whatever Stealth Kills are opportunistic along the way to get a lot more XP out of the Mission.

Spy is already very time efficient for Solo play, so i don't understand your complaint.
if you're taking just a single Weapon then it's even faster than my average gains, since i only remove at max one Weapon because i refuse to not always have a Melee Weapon and a Gun. and 

 

 

on a side note when Multiplayer is considered, yes Onslaught is faster than the popular toxic Missions for XP. since they aren't widely popular, not only will you Level that Weapon faster, but you'll also encounter less toxic Players that waste your time by being useless or just being toxic via what they say.

[DatDarkOne]

13 hours ago, taiiat said:

uhh

but Spy is already the fastest way to Level a single Weapon in Solo play?
your 'correct way of playing Spy' is objectively wrong. you should be getting whatever Stealth Kills are opportunistic along the way to get a lot more XP out of the Mission.

Spy is already very time efficient for Solo play, so i don't understand your complaint.
if you're taking just a single Weapon then it's even faster than my average gains, since i only remove at max one Weapon because i refuse to not always have a Melee Weapon and a Gun. 

 

I have to completely agree with Taiiat.  I've done almost all the methods for ranking up gear, and solo spy has to be the best method I've used.  Especially when combined with opportunistic stealth kills along the way.  

This is even with me having more than one weapon as just like Taiiat I prefer having melee at all times.  

[Gandergear]

11 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

-snip-

 

On 2018-05-28 at 7:07 PM, taiiat said:

-snip-

Specifically for solo play I find adaro with sleepquinox/ivara to be the most time effective, as it was before onlsaught to begin with. The affinity gained through what you mentioned is tied to the stealth-killing mechanic, which can be used just as equally on rescue, capture and exterminate. (If I remember correctly I could do a full 'stealth' adaro in 10 minutes which is probably enough to max out any combination of weapons in a loadout.

But since both of you are like-minded, how long does it take for you to level up a single weapon through spy using your gameplay method?

Edited May 30, 2018 by Gandergear

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, Gandergear said:

But since both of you are like-minded, how long does it take for you to level up a single weapon through spy using your gameplay method?

About two missions depending on weapon.  One with booster.  Doing either Sedna or Pluto missions.  I pick Sedna for more stealth kills and Pluto to finish faster.  

Three missions if the weapon really sucks for stealth killing.  

Edited May 30, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Gandergear said:

The affinity gained through what you mentioned is tied to the stealth-killing mechanic, which can be used just as equally on rescue, capture and exterminate.

right.... but instead of only getting XP from the Enemies, you instead also get a significant amount from the Mission Objectives too?

 

and with my only taking opportunistic Stealth Kills rather than every single Enemy plus having two Weapons with me because i don't like being neked - that's ~30minutes without a Booster.
which as aforementioned could be faster yet if you didn't take an extra Weapon with you, and Killed everything along the way instead of only like half the Enemies or so. and if it was a higher Level Spy Mission, as i usually play a Lv20 one if i do play one for XP to ensure that whatever the Weapon is, it can efficiently Kill things before the first instance of Sleep wears off so i don't have to reapply it.

so it could definitely be twice as fast as what i usually do, considering 50-100% more Killed Enemies, not splitting the XP unnecessarily, and playing a higher Level Mission where Enemies will all give 15-20% more XP or so.

[Gandergear]

24 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

About two missions depending on weapon.  One with booster.  Doing either Sedna or Pluto missions.  I pick Sedna for more stealth kills and Pluto to finish faster.  

Three missions if the weapon really sucks for stealth killing.  

So with two missions you get (currently) a total of 36k xp (due to sedna spy's affinity) out of the 200k you need, with the proposed system you'd be getting 108k (1/2 the xp required to max the weapon vs ~1/5). I for one don't really find stealth in warframe engaging since it only pertains to turning invisible and using channeling, but either way I can't really make a better statement without being told how long it takes you to do the mission, at least on average.

[DatDarkOne]

9 hours ago, Gandergear said:

So with two missions you get (currently) a total of 36k xp (due to sedna spy's affinity) out of the 200k you need, with the proposed system you'd be getting 108k (1/2 the xp required to max the weapon vs ~1/5). I for one don't really find stealth in warframe engaging since it only pertains to turning invisible and using channeling, but either way I can't really make a better statement without being told how long it takes you to do the mission, at least on average.

You forgot the bonus affinity that is also awarded.  The bonus usually doubles the amount.  So for example that 108k affinity gotten during the mission would be more like 200k at the end due to the bonus awarded.  

That's usually about 7-10 minutes.  Maybe a little longer if I'm having fun doing stealth kills.  

I think you are also forgetting that you don't have to kill anything to get affinity in spies.  You get a nice burst of affinity each time you successfully hack a vault.  Stealth kills on enemies just adds to that.  Should you hack all vaults without any alarms, then that's another bonus to affinity.  

edit: I forgot to mention that it took me a much longer time to rank up the Veldt and Zakti together because both weapons suck monkeyballs for keeping the stealth multiplier up.  Zakti because of its mechanic and Veldt because it is a sorry excuse for a single shot weapon.  

Edited May 30, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[Gandergear]

4 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

You forgot the bonus affinity that is also awarded.  The bonus usually doubles the amount.  So for example that 108k affinity gotten during the mission would be more like 200k at the end due to the bonus awarded.  

That's usually about 7-10 minutes.  Maybe a little longer if I'm having fun doing stealth kills.  

I think you are also forgetting that you don't have to kill anything to get affinity in spies.  You get a nice burst of affinity each time you successfully hack a vault.  Stealth kills on enemies just adds to that.  Should you hack all vaults without any alarms, then that's another bonus to affinity.  

edit: I forgot to mention that it took me a much longer time to rank up the Veldt and Zakti together because both weapons suck monkeyballs for keeping the stealth multiplier up.  Zakti because of its mechanic and Veldt because it is a sorry excuse for a single shot weapon.  

The entire analysis was built on not looking at bonus xp, allowing the xp needed to be 200k rather than 450k. Its 'in' the analysis but its contributions arent tabulated for readability sake.

I will have to test this.

Dude please the entire analysis i made was for not killing enemies i documented clearly how much affinity is rewarded by hacking all 3 vaults undetected.

Edit: For some reason my edit got deleted/reverted/didn't save

Stealthier Kappa: In 6m11s I killed 50 enemies and received 52k xp with all 3 vaults completed undetected. This would still require the player to do 4 of these runs to get a single maxxed out weapon.

Further Testing: Adaro

In 9m 14s I completed adaro (140 kill requirment) and got 210k xp, enough to max out the weapon I was testing (210k + 260k bonus xp > 450k xp)

To me this de-facto proves that adaro is the most efficient solo xp-grind when looking exclusively at affinity gains.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Gandergear

[DatDarkOne]

24 minutes ago, Gandergear said:

Dude please the entire analysis i made was for not killing enemies i documented clearly how much affinity is rewarded by hacking all 3 vaults undetected.

Sorry about that.  That was days ago, and i was just trying to avoid confusion.  

[Gandergear]

22 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Sorry about that.  That was days ago, and i was just trying to avoid confusion.  

I've updated the previous post and the OP(in the FAQ section) with my final conclusions on the efficacy of the current spy-xp grind, when including stealth kills

Edited May 30, 2018 by Gandergear

[DatDarkOne]

3 hours ago, Gandergear said:

I've updated the previous post and the OP(in the FAQ section) with my final conclusions on the efficacy of the current spy-xp grind, when including stealth kills

Fair enough.  

I do completely agree that DE should do something that give incentives to play in a stealthy manner.  Not just spy alone.  Outside of personal preference (and having max stealth multiplier), there really isn't a beneficial reason to stealth or use any stealth tactics.  Capture missions being a Prime example of a mission type that could benefit from it.  

I'm not saying to penalize gunsblazing gameplay, but bonuses for actually not alerting enemies or triggering alarms.  

edit:  I just realized you said "50 kills" but didn't specify if they were with the max multiplier or not.  That actually makes a huge difference in xp gains per kill.  Without that multiplier you might as well just do a survival mission instead.  

Edited May 30, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[Gandergear]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

Fair enough.  

I do completely agree that DE should do something that give incentives to play in a stealthy manner.  Not just spy alone.  Outside of personal preference (and having max stealth multiplier), there really isn't a beneficial reason to stealth or use any stealth tactics.  Capture missions being a Prime example of a mission type that could benefit from it.  

I'm not saying to penalize gunsblazing gameplay, but bonuses for actually not alerting enemies or triggering alarms.  

edit:  I just realized you said "50 kills" but didn't specify if they were with the max multiplier or not.  That actually makes a huge difference in xp gains per kill.  Without that multiplier you might as well just do a survival mission instead.  

I agree completely.

As per the edit I maintained 500% throughout most of the mission, only losing it once. For the newly added rescue section I had lost it multiple times, but that's more of a problem with how the stealth mechanics work than anything I purposefully did. Either way it's a good representation of "Moderate Level Play", hopefully you find my rescue information interesting!