So... the sentient are executed Orokin?!

[rhoenix]

55 minutes ago, NocheLuz said:

Well, AFAIK there are 2 theory about Lotus.

First, being that Lotus is not Margulis. She's just taking form of Margulis and use the memories of the Tenno about Margulis to mimic her. Which mean Lotus body is not Margulis and there are no way Margulis live in Lotus. Since Margulis memories is base of what Tenno known about her.

Second, being that Lotus take control over Margulis body. Although, she cannot read the memories out of Margulis mind but still mimic her using Tenno memories about Margulis. Which mean the Lotus body is Margulis body. Margulis is still alive in her. But there are debate on how Margulis alive after she was executed. But there are possibility that Ballas and Natah help her escape.

But there also possibility that both theory are wrong...

Well, there is the third option that Natah was intending to just eat Margulis' mind before it faded, and then use Margulis' body as her new cover - but things didn't quite turn out as planned, and the two are now roommates in the same body.

With the possibility of Lotus being both Natah and Margulis though, no matter how it happened, much is explained about how Lotus acts, speaks, and plans - and why.

Edited June 8, 2018 by rhoenix

[(PSN)PaceBrkr]

To answer the OP, no. The Sentients are a creation similar to the Technocyte virus and the Warframes. They seem to be biomechanical but there's no evidence that supports them being deceased Orokin.

The whole "fate worse than death" thing was specifically in regards to Ordan Karris since he was dying and it appears his people prefer to die a warrior's death - in glorious battle rather than lay up dying of illness or whatever. So rather than let him die that warrior's death, they denied him that and made him immortal - just not as they originally intended (as a part of their circle).

My theory on Apostasy is that Ballas made a deal with Lotus/Natah to "save" Margulis, knowing that she was to be executed. Rather than release Margulis and continue on with whatever he had planned Lotus carried on Margulis' will and guided the Tenno instead. Eventually the devil came for his due and thus the Apostasy Prologue.

Almost can't wait to see how close my little theory is once The Sacrifice drops.

[Blakrana]

"Seven hands raised! For your Apostasy, the judgement is death...Margulis, why?" - Ballas, Orokin Executor

Apostasy as a crime is, as defined in Cambridge dictionary:

Quote

the act of giving up your religious or political beliefs and leaving a religion or a political party

Margulis' defiance of the Orokin is, at the very least, tied to her attempting to aid the Tenno despite the Orokin, particularly Ballas, declaring that they should be destroyed for no longer being "human" (until they found ways to use them as weapons). Her Transference system was intended as a means of therapy, not war, and it seems likely that the shift to a military project only increased the friction between her, an Archimedian, and the Orokin Executors, leading to her being executed.

The question of when is where this all relates back to the Sentient. If we infer that the Archimedian woman vaporised in the Crewman Synthesis entry was indeed Margulis, then she is literally murdered minutes before a hearing about what is implied to be the fate of the proto-Sentient...which then logically renders it impossible for Natah to be present at any point whilst Margulis was alive. If she is not the Archimedian executed...the timeline gets substantially more murky but Margulis' death has to, at the latest, occur some point in the lead up to or early days of the war, assuming that the Warframe project was indeed strictly designed as a counter for the Sentient attack...a line that seems at odds with the implication from the Prime Trailers, such as Nekros, Saryn and Vauban being a Terror, Anti-Infested and Anti-personnel unit respectively for use against standing enemies of the Orokin.

It's hard to pin down...but it seems likely that Natah learned about Margulis posthumously than as a contemporary, at least as I'm understanding events. And due to the genetic locks the Orokin employed, it's reasonable to suspect she couldn't merely copy Margulis' as a) any privileges she had were likely revoked on her sentencing and b) logically revoked when she was dead at the very least. Furthermore, with the practice and capacity to convert people into Cephalons willingly or otherwise, Ballas was well within his power to do that to Margulis herself...rendering "Natah is a replacement" something of an incredible impracticality. Slavery was alive and well, let alone to the point where the Orokin could make you like it; see Ordis. So Ballas could in theory have rendered Margulis a pliant Cephalon if he so desired, thus having no need for a replacement. I mean, with the Orokin range of immoral practices like Continuity and use of Yuvan sacrifices...turning someone they profess to "care for" into another possession...doesn't feel so unlikely, personally.

It's also worth remembering that Natah, as Lotus, is inextricably linked to Hunhow as his daughter, as all Sentients are connected to their offspring, drones...even broken off parts as we end up "linking" to Hunhow by touching part of his remains. In a way, Lotus simulates this link to many by her constant link with all Tenno...which makes sense for an entity belonging to a species that has that intrinsic connection as part of its conception of parenthood. Additionally, if we were to say Sentients are those executed by the Orokin...it's extremely stupid as it just makes your enemies even more dangerous.

I feel it's thus more reasonable to assume that the Sentients that have personal identities are distinct individuals that arose whenever the Sentients achieved sapience in their constructing of the Tau Solar Rail and general exploration of Tau. What led to Natah adopting aspects of Margulis is perhaps simply that same kind of adaptation to circumstances that allowed them to survive, like certain kinds of animal wear plant or other matter for camouflage...just here, it might have gone further than simply wearing the disguise; becoming the mask, as it were.

Ultimately...we don't really know definitively, but this feels more within the realm of the possible than otherwise.

Any rate, sorry for going on, as always. 

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

7 hours ago, Helch0rn said:

"They opened the chamber door just in time for me to see it happen; the Archimedian erupting into a flash, jade-like and blinding. I knew her. She was the greatest scholar of genetics who ever lived. Except now she was nothing but mist and gore...."

-Detron Crewman Synthesis

 

...pretty sure it's not a teleporter

And Orokin were invincible so a pile of gore is what in that context? Also Archimedian is a job title so it wouldn't explicitly be Margulis.

 

And for people saying Sentients are explicitly an antagonistic entity meaning Natah is as well; their enemies were immortal gods so they had to go extremist to deal with them. Natah didn't necessarily have to also be a apple from the same tree. Think of our own history. Who decided people or animals deserved their own rights to quality of living? Someone always had to vouch for it against whatever unified idealogy was prominent at the time. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by (PS4)Tactless_Ninja

[Vilemyre]

10 hours ago, (PS4)VanTX89 said:

To answer the OP, no. The Sentients are a creation similar to the Technocyte virus and the Warframes. They seem to be biomechanical but there's no evidence that supports them being deceased Orokin.

Hold on I thought that was the infestation. Since warframes were made of infested tissue and build to combat the Sentients. I thought sentients had no correlation to be similar to warframes and their only involvement among warframes was sentinels which were non hostile sentients.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Vilemyre

[Helch0rn]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

And Orokin were invincible so a pile of gore is what in that context? Also Archimedian is a job title so it wouldn't explicitly be Margulis.

Orokin were immortal not invincible. and they were only immortal because they were basically body snatchers.

turning an orokin into a pile of gore means one less orokin as long as they can't do their continuity ritual beforehand.

Margulis, facing execution for defying the orokin, was probably not granted something that would make the whole execution pointless.

I quoted that part from the Detron Crewman sythesis to show that the "Jade light", as the orokin called it, was not a teleporter. the executed achimedian was obviously not Margulis since this was before Sentients were sent out to the tau system and tenno did not exist yet

 

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

20 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

Orokin were immortal not invincible. and they were only immortal because they were basically body snatchers.

turning an orokin into a pile of gore means one less orokin as long as they can't do their continuity ritual beforehand.

Margulis, facing execution for defying the orokin, was probably not granted something that would make the whole execution pointless.

I quoted that part from the Detron Crewman sythesis to show that the "Jade light", as the orokin called it, was not a teleporter. the executed achimedian was obviously not Margulis since this was before Sentients were sent out to the tau system and tenno did not exist yet

 

We don't know the extent of their body swapping. If it was necessary or simply cosmetic like putting on a new suit. The Ordis beast of bones story made it sound like the latter. It may even only extend to functionality. Orokin couldn't interact with this world unless they were wearing their skin suits. The Queens aren't at all a reliable source for saying whether or not they did because the one we killed isn't dead. 

Immortal and invincible are actually interchangeable. They both mean unable to harm. 

And think about teleporters. They break down your flesh, copies it, reassembles on the other side. Who's to say what comes out on the other side is really you? Or even needs all of you to make the copy. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by (PS4)Tactless_Ninja

[Helch0rn]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

We don't know the extent of their body swapping. If it was necessary or simply cosmetic like putting on a new suit. The Ordis beast of bones story made it sound like the latter. It may even only extend to functionality.

Teshin: A Yuvan theater, long abandoned. In ages past, I would have stood guard as the young and exotic were paraded through the mountain pass and marched by the viewing pane. They'd barter here, the Orokin. Withering and coughing-^[sic]as they prepared for their Continuity.
Operator: She doesn't want me dead.
Teshin: No. The Queen doesn't want to kill you. She wants to become you. To burrow through your mind corrupting it with despair until only she remains.

 

withering and coughing Orokin does not sound like they did it just for cosmetic purposes

3 hours ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Orokin couldn't interact with this world unless they were wearing their skin suits. The Queens aren't at all a reliable source for saying whether or not they did because the one we killed isn't dead. 

where did you get the information that the orokin "could not interact with the world unless wearing their skin suits"? are they something different than humans? because the way I read the lore implies to me that the Orokin were just humans that used kuva to switch to a new body once their old one was too old

3 hours ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Immortal and invincible are actually interchangeable. They both mean unable to harm. 

The cambridge dictionary defines:

Immortal: living or lasting forver

Invincible: impossible to defeat or prevent from doing what is intended

 

so no they are not interchangeable and don't mean unable to harm

3 hours ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

And think about teleporters. They break down your flesh, copies it, reassembles on the other side. Who's to say what comes out on the other side is really you? Or even needs all of you to make the copy. 

if the Jade Light was a teleporter then why the big show with the gore and such? why pretend to execute someone instead of just sentencing them to become a warframe?

what did Ballas do with those that were "teleported" in the time before Sentients, Tenno, Warframes and the Technocyte Virus even existed? (see Detron Crewman Synthesis)

and the discussion if a person that has been teleported is still the same person is rather philosophical and not worth discussing here as NOBODY GOT TELEPORTED

[(XBOX)Daltonsky9]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

We don't know the extent of their body swapping. If it was necessary or simply cosmetic like putting on a new suit. The Ordis beast of bones story made it sound like the latter. . 

Correct me if I'm wrong but in the War Within the grinder queen was dying because the body she lived in was dying so it makes sense that it was nessacary.

[(PSN)PaceBrkr]

10 hours ago, Vilemyre said:

Hold on I thought that was the infestation. Since warframes were made of infested tissue and build to combat the Sentients. I thought sentients had no correlation to be similar to warframes and their only involvement among warframes was sentinels which were non hostile sentients.

The Infestation is the Technocyte virus. The virus is the thing that infects and mutates its victims. It grew out of control and developed beyond the control limitations put on it.

There is a connection between them but we don't really know how deep that connection is (yet) aside from, as you said, sentinels being related to Sentients and our Warframes being made of infested tissue - I presume from the Helminth strain of the Technocyte virus.

What I meant by saying the Sentients are similar to the Technocyte virus and the Warframes is that they were all created by the Orokin or through their influence (ex. Ballas commissioned the creation of the Warframes and he commissioned the Sentient project).

[(PSN)PaceBrkr]

11 hours ago, Blakrana said:

"Seven hands raised! For your Apostasy, the judgement is death...Margulis, why?" - Ballas, Orokin Executor

Apostasy as a crime is, as defined in Cambridge dictionary:

Margulis' defiance of the Orokin is, at the very least, tied to her attempting to aid the Tenno despite the Orokin, particularly Ballas, declaring that they should be destroyed for no longer being "human" (until they found ways to use them as weapons). Her Transference system was intended as a means of therapy, not war, and it seems likely that the shift to a military project only increased the friction between her, an Archimedian, and the Orokin Executors, leading to her being executed.

The question of when is where this all relates back to the Sentient. If we infer that the Archimedian woman vaporised in the Crewman Synthesis entry was indeed Margulis, then she is literally murdered minutes before a hearing about what is implied to be the fate of the proto-Sentient...which then logically renders it impossible for Natah to be present at any point whilst Margulis was alive. If she is not the Archimedian executed...the timeline gets substantially more murky but Margulis' death has to, at the latest, occur some point in the lead up to or early days of the war, assuming that the Warframe project was indeed strictly designed as a counter for the Sentient attack...a line that seems at odds with the implication from the Prime Trailers, such as Nekros, Saryn and Vauban being a Terror, Anti-Infested and Anti-personnel unit respectively for use against standing enemies of the Orokin.

It's hard to pin down...but it seems likely that Natah learned about Margulis posthumously than as a contemporary, at least as I'm understanding events. And due to the genetic locks the Orokin employed, it's reasonable to suspect she couldn't merely copy Margulis' as a) any privileges she had were likely revoked on her sentencing and b) logically revoked when she was dead at the very least. Furthermore, with the practice and capacity to convert people into Cephalons willingly or otherwise, Ballas was well within his power to do that to Margulis herself...rendering "Natah is a replacement" something of an incredible impracticality. Slavery was alive and well, let alone to the point where the Orokin could make you like it; see Ordis. So Ballas could in theory have rendered Margulis a pliant Cephalon if he so desired, thus having no need for a replacement. I mean, with the Orokin range of immoral practices like Continuity and use of Yuvan sacrifices...turning someone they profess to "care for" into another possession...doesn't feel so unlikely, personally.

It's also worth remembering that Natah, as Lotus, is inextricably linked to Hunhow as his daughter, as all Sentients are connected to their offspring, drones...even broken off parts as we end up "linking" to Hunhow by touching part of his remains. In a way, Lotus simulates this link to many by her constant link with all Tenno...which makes sense for an entity belonging to a species that has that intrinsic connection as part of its conception of parenthood. Additionally, if we were to say Sentients are those executed by the Orokin...it's extremely stupid as it just makes your enemies even more dangerous.

I feel it's thus more reasonable to assume that the Sentients that have personal identities are distinct individuals that arose whenever the Sentients achieved sapience in their constructing of the Tau Solar Rail and general exploration of Tau. What led to Natah adopting aspects of Margulis is perhaps simply that same kind of adaptation to circumstances that allowed them to survive, like certain kinds of animal wear plant or other matter for camouflage...just here, it might have gone further than simply wearing the disguise; becoming the mask, as it were.

Ultimately...we don't really know definitively, but this feels more within the realm of the possible than otherwise.

Any rate, sorry for going on, as always.

Ah right. Allow me to add to the "becoming the mask" statement.
In Chains of Harrow when you're looking for the Donda you come across the message "He suffers while you dream" where Lotus questions how Rell could know about the dream and Palladino responds:
"Great Sentient Queen, forgive me, but what you are, what you've made yourself is merely drawn from the dreams of these divine children. You are not she, you are not...Margulis."

So if she isn't possessing Margulis - or in a symbiotic link - then the Lotus fashioned herself in Margulis' image (and voice) to appeal to the Tenno and make it easier to gain their trust and love just as they did for Margulis.

 

But then Apostasy Prologue comes along and makes us question whether Ballas or Lotus herself was mistaken. Granted, we have dialogue from Palladino to give us some basis but she's a third party to all of this so perhaps she may be wrong.

Edited June 8, 2018 by (PS4)VanTX89
Cleared up context.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

On 2018-06-08 at 12:04 PM, Helch0rn said:

Teshin: A Yuvan theater, long abandoned. In ages past, I would have stood guard as the young and exotic were paraded through the mountain pass and marched by the viewing pane. They'd barter here, the Orokin. Withering and coughing-^[sic]as they prepared for their Continuity.
Operator: She doesn't want me dead.
Teshin: No. The Queen doesn't want to kill you. She wants to become you. To burrow through your mind corrupting it with despair until only she remains.

 

withering and coughing Orokin does not sound like they did it just for cosmetic purposes

Queens aren't in the same upper echelon class. They had to side with the dregs of Orokin society. Besides that Ordis bled the Orokin elite and they laughed it off. You don't do that if you're vulnerable in any way.

Quote

where did you get the information that the orokin "could not interact with the world unless wearing their skin suits"? are they something different than humans? because the way I read the lore implies to me that the Orokin were just humans that used kuva to switch to a new body once their old one was too old

Speculation to their actual state of being rather than what everyone thinks they are. They could be immortal as balls of energy which is what oro is supposed to be no? There is also a large chunk of missing info during the Tenno rebellion as to how they just lost their power. Simply killing them would do nothing. So how did they stay dead? The only speculation that everyone has drawn for now is they actually were vulnerable all along but that could change at any point in time. So I'm looking at other possibilities.

Quote

if the Jade Light was a teleporter then why the big show with the gore and such? why pretend to execute someone instead of just sentencing them to become a warframe?

what did Ballas do with those that were "teleported" in the time before Sentients, Tenno, Warframes and the Technocyte Virus even existed? (see Detron Crewman Synthesis)

and the discussion if a person that has been teleported is still the same person is rather philosophical and not worth discussing here as NOBODY GOT TELEPORTED

You know an Xray machine can cook someone from the inside-out. It all depends on the machine settings. We also got this info through a narrator which can be unreliable if they wished it. And more to the point Ballas is a manipulative bastard so thinking for one second he personally marched Marge into a situation like that without having an out with all his push n pull is foolish.

Edited June 9, 2018 by (PS4)Tactless_Ninja

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

On 2018-06-07 at 6:19 PM, Scythwolf said:

why sentient machines are seen as unfertile

"traveled through the void wombs in wreck" is something that was already said through the game as the void is posion to the sentient making them weaker an unable to produce children unless they consume kuva as that can restore there baby making powers