Map nuking. Is it really necessary? (minor rant inc)

[Haeen]

3 minutes ago, Uthael said:

Well, I feel he has a good point. The proof of game being less entertaining than it should be is that topics like these appear.

That isn't proof. The sample size is too small, and people who are satisfied do not make topics saying such a thing. That is a terrible logical argument to attempt.

3 minutes ago, Uthael said:

 

Being able to spam nukes, however, ruins the fun for other random people. What Warframe does well is that ability usefulness is often altered by factors other than their availability.

If you can build up the damage, it makes for a much more satisfying use than outright spamming. 

Let's say that Saryn's stacks are shared between every Saryn in the squad. Or that a Volt transfers his charge stacks if he touches another, stationary Volt. Mechanics like these would encourage many people to search for a like-minded squad. At the same time, randoms who want to shoot every enemy personally would get more opportunities to do so.

The issue is those who are unsatisfied by a singular gameplay style are small in number and have alternatives to dealing with such methods. This isn't the case of something being impossible to avoid, or a tactic that is absolutely necessary to complete a mission. It is a preference and you don't balance a gae out of preferene. That is a dreadful slippery slope that many game developers avoid.

[Uthael]

1) There are even more who don't care one way or the other. Most of these people will just find another "best-in-meta" thing to do. Especially ones who aren't maining a specific warframe.

2) People are instinctively afraid of changes. So most of the replies to ANY gameplay-changing suggestion will be negative ones. This is unavoidable. The reason is that gameplay changes tend to be more permanent in many games. But this is Warframe and DE we're talking about here. If the change is bad, they'll change it again.

3) There are actually many more people who'd complain, but don't. Because they:
- don't know how
- think the devs don't read the feedback
- are afraid of aggressive counter-arguments
- prefer playing over discussion
- would rather go and play another game/mode
- just do it in squad chat to get it off their minds, etc.

Some people leave the squad mid-game as soon as they feel like some bad experience will happen again. And I see people leaving squads way too often to call this game perfect.

Warframe ain't perfect. That's why we're complaining at the Forums. And the devs listening to players is one of the major reasons people switch to playing Warframe.

 

Hope they improve on map nuking gameplay.

[DjKaplis]

 

I also hope they improve on map nuking - add more and interesting ways of map nuking. Otherwise they removed the fun ones like nuke Wukong and left us only with ability spamming.

 

And yes, we need map nuking.

 

Thousands of times yes, more people prefer having options for map nuking even if that sometimes means someone is killing all enemies in some missions where they would just prefer to shoot the enemies.

 

Yes some people don't like changes but most just like things how they are. More importantly tho there will always be people complaining about something. Like there are also constantly several threads requesting more frames to have AoE abilities. So who should DE listen to then? The ones who complain louder? (btw that would be the ppl requesting more AoE)

 

As a new player AoE abilities never bothered me and that was before several nerfs to frames like ember. And map nuking doesn't bother me now. And I don't see why it should bother anyone too much. You don't get randoms nuking everything that often anyway except on certain missions like defence where imo it is acceptable anyway.  

 

[Mardomus]

People on this thread are WILD! Just so you know, you really don't need map nuking Warframes to progress further in survival or to grind resources or to complete a mission(s). It is nice to have and it is an easy way to do things, but not "needed" as many here are claiming. So, if you are new and see that ignore it because that is foolishness writing. To be honest, Nekros and Hydroid work well for grinding because of their augments/abilites, so those Warframes would be "needed" if you wanted to grind resources.

I see foolishness writing again "You need a map nuke Warframe to kill faster in survival because you need kills for LS", ✋ you can do that with a group of 4 Warframes who are not map clearing frames. They don't even need a Nekros or Hydroid because I've been in many randoms that went above 40+ minutes without dipping under 80% LS. And 10-20 minutes is usually the longest randoms will stay in survival or 5-15 waves in defense anyway. Few players are willing to go above those numbers but others may not because they would want to participate in other things or have a limited time due to real life stuff. If LS is low that is due to a player messing up spawn points by steal killing, which happens a lot.

It's bad enough we have players who are thirsty for kills and are willing to leave a defensive area undefended so that they could run in front of another player who is controlling a point just to take their kills. I mean its fine to run and grab resources, but to steal their enjoyment by running further ahead to grab kills? l see this happen 90% + times when I join randoms.

I see players writing how this is how they play and enjoy their time by building nuke Warframes and bringing those frames into randoms, and using these sad "excuses" on this thread, but you fail to forget that there are also 3 other players who may not enjoy "your" style and who would like to enjoy those 10+ minutes they are spending with a player who builds around being "selfish", if that is what you're intending to do; a volt who builds for range for 4th spam. There are 3 types of players who don't mind nuke frames; 1). They are leveling a Warframe or weapons, 2). They want to get carried or 3). They are there for resources and possible there for 1 &/or 2. Just so you know, you wont get half of the resources with map clearing Warframes unless you run around to grab them from who knows where, unless you have loot detect or a Nekros who would run to those dead bodies and see loot pop out.

Some of these players here need to be honest and stop being scared. Admit that a lot of "you" bring a nuke Waframe(s) into randoms just to be top in damage and kills. And many who play nuke Warframes are apart of the gang who already run around and steal kill. I bet some of these players who got offended on this thread don't even have the balls to admit that and THAT is the sad part. The biggest issue with randoms are steal killers and now map clearing frames. A mask is built around players who steal kill and play selfishly and when it is brought to attention, people get offended instead of seeing that the consistency of nuke Warframes entering randoms is sucking the fun out of other players who are spending long minutes wanting to randomly group with others to "enjoy" their Warframe with others. Not to sit next to 3 other players and yarn while a Volt or another map clearing frame do all the killing. On top of that, players want to leave survival or defense missions because it is boring, and if you are playing a map clearing frame and see one person wanting to leave or more and questioning them on why they are leaving, it is likely due to the fact that they are not having fun at all. 

Players telling others if they don't like it to go play solo or invite. How about you take your advice and bring your map clearing Warframe and go play solo or invite if you want to be that ignorant by coming into randoms to steal kill and suck the boredom of 3 other player's fun. That way you get all your kills. No one is saying you shouldn't have fun with your Warframe but someone is bringing awareness to the consistency of it in randoms and the community on handling the situation on this thread is straight sad and I'm disappointed. And to the Limbos who just build for max range still and just sit in their bubble and do nothing..... smh... that is all I will write about that. 

When I see a map clearing Warframe I leave the random party to find another. I get bored as hell and it is NOT fun sitting there trying to enjoy the game. Also we now have map clearing players boasting about their damage and kills and trash talking others on their low kill count. I don't need to point you out because you know who you are.

Leaving and rejoining the mission is the best some of you can do who want to enjoy their frame for the time being or just stick through it. I know most of you want to join randoms because I play 40% of the game solo and 60% with randoms, but do what you got to do, I guess. You can already see some of the players we have in the community on this thread. Oh yeah, if these players are writing about longer surival runs, you'll get higher chances of doing them with a clan or group rather then randoms because many wont stay long. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Mardomus

[Antiversvm]

vor 45 Minuten schrieb Mardomus:

Players telling others if they don't like it to go play solo or invite. How about you take your advice and bring your map clearing Warframe and go play solo or invite if you want to be that ignorant by coming into randoms to steal kill and suck the boredom of 3 other player's fun.

Isn't that the problem of all online gaming communities? Players giving other players "advices" but never use them for themselves?

I only met one nuke player so far in defense missions and it was boring as hell. Though he meant it the good way and said "just stay here and I'll carry you" but it was just a bad experience. Ended up minimizing the client and watching a stream.

On the other hand I think all 4s are too easy to spam. I know sometimes you just have to have a skill that kills fast and easy a mob but when I use Novas 4 in a defense mission it is helpful and boring at the same time. Everything's dead and you wait while you're looting blue balls.

[TwiceDead]

4-5 years later and these topics still pop-up, I see. 

 

Carry on. 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Cohorror:

Isn't that the problem of all online gaming communities? Players giving other players "advices" but never use them for themselves?

Indeed.

In this case i think it's particularly ironic how spam-defenders accuse critics of selfishness, accusing them of wanting to dictate their own playstyle upon them thus victimizing themselves just to justify their plain laziness (because yeah, pressing 4 for 20 minutes straight is so much "fun") when it is actually them who'd be obviously perfectly able to play the mission solo and it's also obviously them who are actually dictating other ppls playing style, as in: defeating their playing experience altogether.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Cohorror:

On the other hand I think all 4s are too easy to spam.

Agreed. Made a thread about the issue some moons ago:

 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

Edited cause duplicate-

Edited July 23, 2018 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

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Edited July 23, 2018 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

Edited cause duplicate-

Edited July 23, 2018 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

2 hours ago, Cohorror said:

Isn't that the problem of all online gaming communities? Players giving other players "advices" but never use them for themselves?

I only met one nuke player so far in defense missions and it was boring as hell. Though he meant it the good way and said "just stay here and I'll carry you" but it was just a bad experience. Ended up minimizing the client and watching a stream.

On the other hand I think all 4s are too easy to spam. I know sometimes you just have to have a skill that kills fast and easy a mob but when I use Novas 4 in a defense mission it is helpful and boring at the same time. Everything's dead and you wait while you're looting blue balls.

All online games? I haven't seen League of Legend players complaining about teammates being too good. Haven't seen that for Overwatch, Call of Duty or any other online community.

If you really did have a nuker trivialize everything, the mission would have been over quickly. You could have had the option to leave almost immediately. You had enough time to watch a stream for the entire 20 seconds they did all the work? Hardly seems like a bad experience if it was so short.

 

3 hours ago, Mardomus said:

Players telling others if they don't like it to go play solo or invite. How about you take your advice and bring your map clearing Warframe and go play solo or invite if you want to be that ignorant by coming into randoms to steal kill and suck the boredom of 3 other player's fun. That way you get all your kills. No one is saying you shouldn't have fun with your Warframe but someone is bringing awareness to the consistency of it in randoms and the community on handling the situation on this thread is straight sad and I'm disappointed. And to the Limbos who just build for max range still and just sit in their bubble and do nothing..... smh... that is all I will write about that.

Your logic doesn't work here at all. You are the ignorant one. People play Nukers for a variety of reasons. The main one? Bringing the most effective tool to do a job. Kinda why people bring frost to a defense mission, or loki to a spy mission. Some people to do it to save time or level frames. What's the problem here?

Telling people who accept they are going into a public mission, and accept that they get the cards they are dealt teammate wise, don't have to take their own advice. They don't have the problem or the complaints. They don't care what teammates they get. The people who complain about a problem, of having teammates when they have two really easy solutions? Play Solo- The game has a fully functional solo mode, and a robust clan mode and friend list. You can choose who you play with at any time. Two nuke frames can easily compete for kills. They alternate use ults, or go to different parts of the map instead of complaining about teammates being too good. If you a player, join a public mission for convenience, you can't complain it was TOO convenient for you. I'm so sorry you went into a public mission and got a public team that use the public meta. I haven't seen a single game ever, that complained there teammates carried them too hard. It's basically the equivalent complaining that you have too much food. But cause you are complaining so much, let's just remove all warframe abilities ever, except the bad ones people don't use. Just get rid of every frame's most used abilities. Like Limbo's and Frost's bubble. Gara's bubble is broken too. Can't have that. Remove Saryn's Mesa's Mag's and volt's ultimate ability. Just delete ember anyways. Nova can keep her first ability just trash the rest. And while we ride this train, we get rid of any fun anyone had in the game.

42 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Indeed.

In this case i think it's particularly ironic how spam-defenders accuse critics of selfishness, accusing them of wanting to dictate their own playstyle upon them thus victimizing themselves just to justify their plain laziness (because yeah, pressing 4 for 20 minutes straight is so much "fun") when it is actually them who'd be obviously perfectly able to play the mission solo and it's also obviously them who are actually dictating other ppls playing style, as in: defeating their playing experience altogether.

Agreed. Made a thread about the issue some moons ago:

 

Sorry, buddy. Your logic doesn't work here either. People who nuke for convenience, aren't going to complain about joining a session that makes getting what they want faster.... Oh no, Anything to give me my daily cap of school affinitiy...  in seconds! Oh no, don't give me the pretty bloom mod from ESO faster. I REALLY WANTED TO WASTE 14 more hours fruitlessly trying to get the thing I wanted.

To get rid of the Afk gameplay you would have to literally remove every cc in the game, every damage ability in the game and every defense ability in the game. Frost, limbo, gara, nova, vauban, can all afk with their defense cc. And deja vu i swear we having this conversation again lol. All it takes is other teammates doing stuff for you to be able to afk.

You can play how you like. I can play how I like. If we go into a mission and a reaction occurs where you arent having fun, it's not a dictation. You aren't forced to stay. You can actually go to a different part of the map and kill things. No warframe has the power strength, or the range to instantly kill every mob ever. Maps are too big and enemies scale too quickly. You are dictating that people don't have the freedom to play how they like though.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

Oh no, don't give me the pretty bloom mod from ESO faster.

Kind of a bad example as ESO rounds do always last the same amount of time, it's actually only more tedious subjectively if you got nothing to do because 3/4 of ppl are using Saryn and Volt but yeah...

vor 10 Minuten schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

To get rid of the Afk gameplay you would have to literally remove every cc in the game, every damage ability in the game and every defense ability in the game.

Or just fix overabundace of energy and make skills even more valuable.

vor 11 Minuten schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

You can play how you like. I can play how I like. If we go into a mission and a reaction occurs where you arent having fun, it's not a dictation. You aren't forced to stay. You can actually go to a different part of the map and kill things. No warframe has the power strength, or the range to instantly kill every mob ever. Maps are too big and enemies scale too quickly. You are dictating that people don't have the freedom to play how they like though.

Of course frames occupy different roles and there's no need for damage to be divided upon each player 25% each every time, but if certain frames outshadow others in pretty much every regard and get 70%+ damage without even the slightest degree of actual effort it gets extreme and frustrating.

Say what you will but "pay solo" will always work both ways period. I can hardly imagine that's DE's actual intention tho, i thought the idea was to be able to hop into a group and just have fun, with dedicated ones actually being made to META, but teamplay is hardly even a factor for that at this point. It hardly makes for a good early impression for newish players either... (i'm not talking about about different gear / MR levels, of course a fully modded Ember will outshine someone just starting out on Mercury, that's just unavoidable in a progression based game like this.)

[iuki.]

uh wf is a horde game.

killing lots of enemies is it's selling point.

if i wanted to play tactical, there is dozens of them to choose from.

wf is unique in this way and that's why I play it...

Edited July 23, 2018 by iuki.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

9 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Say what you will but "pay solo" will always work both ways period. I can hardly imagine that's DE's actual intention tho, i thought the idea was to be able to hop into a group and just have fun, with dedicated ones actually being made to META, but teamplay is hardly even a factor for that at this point. It hardly makes for a good early impression for newish players either... (i'm not talking about about different gear / MR levels, of course a fully modded Ember will outshine someone just starting out on Mercury, that's just unavoidable in a progression based game like this.)

And that attitude is why ember was nerfed so hard that nobody plays her anymore. Ember is functionally useless when any frame ever can do her job but better. WoF is the worst ability in the game for what it does. Getting smaller range and more energy draining over time? Nobody plays here in any real content, unless they really just like her for some reason.

Solo doesn't work both ways, Cause both parties don't have the same issue. I could fix YOUR problem going solo, or you could fix YOUR problem going solo. It's your problem, and im not responsible for your issues. My problem is that I have too many prime mods and only so much endo drops. Oh, and i need to re roll my three riven mods. that's only all the kuva ever. To fix my problem? gonna go into a public kuva mission and see how long we can go

I walk in as saryn, kill everything. I got 100 forma's but a problem isn't one of them. The closest thing I have to a problem is you telling me what I can and can't do.
Something literally anyone would have a problem with. So to fix your problem, I and everyone like me, suggests you fix your own problem and play solo or with friends so you can have your fun the way you want, and not deal with over achieving teammates.

I always play with friends, Im a warlord of a clan and on the daily helping out the alliance/clan. My most used frame is around 14% of my play time. so most my frame usage varies depending what's most useful for the mission. So telling me I can't use something to help a newb who can't do it by themselves? Doesnt fly in logic, and doesnt fly with player choice.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

It's your problem, and im not responsible for your issues.

k

[Uthael]

5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

People play Nukers for a variety of reasons. The main one? Bringing the most effective tool to do a job. Kinda why people bring frost to a defense mission, or loki to a spy mission. Some people to do it to save time or level frames. What's the problem here?

Loki and Frost don't force others to be useless compared to them.

5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

To get rid of the Afk gameplay you would have to literally remove every cc in the game, every damage ability in the game and every defense ability in the game. Frost, limbo, gara, nova, vauban, can all afk with their defense cc. And deja vu i swear we having this conversation again lol. All it takes is other teammates doing stuff for you to be able to afk.

Out of those mentioned, I believe only Limbo has that absolute CC, duration, range and the power to make others feel useless.
Just yesterday, I've been to an interception sortie. I played Octavia. Went to C. Stealthed, plopped a Mallet, Amped it and watched the enemied defend the objective against themselves. And I enjoyed it. The thing is, others could do the same on their points. There was a Limbo at B and a Gara at A. Don't remember D because they never needed a revive. Every one of us were useful.
On Excavation missions, when a Limbo bubbles 35m around an excavator, I can just go and activate another one to have my fun with. I can't do that in defense missions. The only defense missions I'd approve of a huge Cataclysm would be Hydron (becasue people mostly go there to afk anyway) and MAAAYBE radiation sortie defense.

In Sanctuary Onslaught, a map nuke activating every time a group of enemies spawn is the same thing.

5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I walk in as saryn, kill everything. I got 100 forma's but a problem isn't one of them. The closest thing I have to a problem is you telling me what I can and can't do.
Something literally anyone would have a problem with. So to fix your problem, I and everyone like me, suggests you fix your own problem and play solo or with friends so you can have your fun the way you want, and not deal with over achieving teammates.

The problem is - I don't like it when an Excalibur leaves a game I'm in because a Saryn is killing everything, not giving his blades a chance to get to the enemies.
 

5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I always play with friends, Im a warlord of a clan and on the daily helping out the alliance/clan. My most used frame is around 14% of my play time. so most my frame usage varies depending what's most useful for the mission. So telling me I can't use something to help a newb who can't do it by themselves? Doesnt fly in logic, and doesnt fly with player choice. 

Thank you! When I want to instagib everything at once, I just go to recruit chat and say something like "H Focus / [Orokin Cell] / [Polymer Bundle] farm, LF AFK fillers.". It keeps the enemy count high because we're always a squad of 4.
But when I join a public match and we agree on a 20min survival, I hate it when someone leaves at min12 due to having nothing to do.

[Uthael]

A few days ago, I had a Hyena Sortie Assassination. Each of us could die from 1 hit and the fight was actually a challenge. 2 players left. People would rather leave than fail a mission. And I'm fine with that. We two who remained had a tough fight vs all 4 lvl100 Hyenas. We won but it took a while. During the fight I remembered what it's like NOT to instagib enemies, the importance of having to dodge, hide, etc. We somehow established communication using waypoints and movements because staying alive left no room for typing in chat (we didn't use voice).
After the mission, we thanked each other for staying and commented on what we've been through. I. Had. Fun.

And again: People leaving due to challenge that's too great for them is fine. They would rather save time.
People leaving due to lack of challenge is NOT fine. They would rather abandon the rewards of victory in favor of having fun.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Uthael

[Cryptodream]

I use Saryn a lot, i do it ro help new players. Efficiency is not fun. If someone tells me to stop, i stop. I suggest you to try that, most people in this game are decent human beings.

[Chimiasai]

People cried about melee on how it was boring for others players and cheesy.

People cried for the powercreep of weapon, begging the devs to nerf them.

People are crying actually for the map nuking.

And guess what? The devs doesn't hear your complaint. Or in fact, they aknowledge it but choose to ignore it they're mostly removing fun from the game. Instead, they choose to rework those parts to make the game more fluids. So, go ahead. Cry, beg, even insult peoples who don't agree about your opinion. Because i know, at least, that the devs team won't follow your advices because you're basically asking to remove something pleasant to others players. Yes, map nuking is selfish but do i play the game to be killed by a random mob? No, i want my daily genocide when i can run though an horde without breaking a sweat. I want the sensation of cutting through ten corpus with a single swing, i want the feeling of having the fate of my enemies under my finger when i'm pressing a button.

So yes, i'm selfish to have some fun when i'm tired of carrying a bunch of players with the same non-nuking frame, i'm tired of asking people to get my buff as Oberon and see them die because they don't follow my advices (And, to clear my point, a lot of new players get the idea of following my waypoint instead of those "Veteran players" who'll act like hot cake). You'll remove my ability to, sometimes, hardcarrying a whole mission because you need to have some kills when you only have to protect another access? Yes you do... And that's sad. Not sad about your idea but sad about how you're ready to literally harm warframe for your own pleasure.

[Soketsu]

This topic ain't dead yet ? It should have been buried like destiny

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Chimiasai:

Yes you do... And that's sad. Not sad about your idea but sad about how you're ready to literally harm warframe for your own pleasure.

Yeah people who dig some challenge, actual teamplay and game balance are basically fascists (actual wording from someone else in a similar discussion) or at the very least mean spirited and primarily just want to intentionally harm the game and DE personally. Sorry to make you sad but at least you have the confidence (and i'm afraid i have to agree) things won't ever change so: congratulations. ❤️

[Uthael]

12 minutes ago, Chimiasai said:

People cried about melee on how it was boring for others players and cheesy.

People cried for the powercreep of weapon, begging the devs to nerf them.

People are crying actually for the map nuking. 

And guess what? The devs doesn't hear your complaint. Or in fact, they aknowledge it but choose to ignore it they're mostly removing fun from the game.

No more 20 range Meme Strike Atterax through walls.
I don't see Ignis killing enemies nobody ever even sees.

So, the devs are actually listening. And after those changes are done, there's little incentive to revert them. Guess why! Because it's more fun this way!

Edited July 23, 2018 by Uthael

[Chimiasai]

il y a 11 minutes, Kotsender_Quasimir a dit :

Yeah people who dig some challenge, actual teamplay and game balance are basically fascists (actual wording from someone else in a similar discussion) or at the very least mean spirited and primarily just want to intentionally harm the game and DE personally. Sorry to make you sad but at least you have the confidence (and i'm afraid i have to agree) things won't ever change so: congratulations. ❤️

Happily for you, you didn't see my first point about how devs team know better than you or me how to drive that game and how they know how differents players want differents things, how nuking is a way to play the game like normal-play is another. So, i'm not fearing the direction about how Warframe will changes. It'll change, surely, Nuking may be restricted in a way. But the devs won't take back our liberty that's one of the actual selling point of the game.

And yep, i see people who are always pleading to remove something from the game as a sad example. They're not mean spirited or actually acting to disrupt the others players but like those who enjoy map-nuking while ignoring their allies, those two sorts of peoples lack of vision. Both are asking to remove something from someone else as if it was the perfect changes for the game... Then they'll pass on something else. Balance between two points. So yeah, that's sad. Terribly sad for them to not see the actual balance of the game.

il y a 6 minutes, Uthael a dit :

No more 20 range Meme Strike Atterax through walls.
I don't see Ignis killing enemies nobody ever even sees.

 So, the devs are actually listening. And after those changes are done, there's little incentive to revert them. Guess why! Because it's more fun this way!

 

il y a 19 minutes, Chimiasai a dit :

Instead, they choose to rework those parts to make the game more fluids.

And after that? They'll rework the entire melee for the pleasure of players who used melee only for the advantage of the killingcopter.

Same goes for the weapons rework. They removed the potency of burning the enemies through walls but powered up the flamethrower and the equivalent.

Dev team won't follow your advices. They'll aknowledge it and choose how to rework those weak spot in the game while giving something to their players so they don't feel aggrieved

Edited July 23, 2018 by Chimiasai

[Uthael]

YES! YES to everything you wrote!

I'm not for removing map nuking entirely. It does feel satisfying and removing it would remove a feature. But it should require a bit more effort. Some coordination with other ninjas to pull off feats like that. Or some map interaction. Something that would prevent a single player from killing every enemy on the map on constant basis.

Simaris putting cooldowns on you in ESO is an example of bad implementation. But it made players look for a group of like-minded people who'd prefer having the enemies constantly obliterated. Let me quote myself here:

On 2018-07-21 at 10:36 PM, Uthael said:

Being out of energy is no fun. And cooldowns are definitely no fun (Edit: Hello, Simaris!). Nobody likes diminishing returns mechanics, either.

Being able to spam nukes, however, ruins the fun for other random people. What Warframe does well is that ability usefulness is often altered by factors other than their availability.

If you can build up the damage, it makes for a much more satisfying use than outright spamming. 

Let's say that Saryn's stacks are shared between every Saryn in the squad. Or that a Volt transfers his charge stacks if he touches another, stationary Volt. Mechanics like these would encourage many people to search for a like-minded squad. At the same time, randoms who want to shoot every enemy personally would get more opportunities to do so.

22 hours ago, Uthael said:

Discharge - How about making Volt himself act as one enemy? He'd be a tesla coil you can place anywhere and would help frying that single enemy or connecting two enemies.

So, make a group a power+range Volt and a speed+efficiency Volt. The power ranger would sit on a pathfinding junction and the other would keep shields around him up and charge him. Speed+efficiency can have Zenurik for energy and the other can have Madurai for Elemental Damage boost.

There! You can remove the infinite punch-through and buff the passive (and with it, his 1 and weapon damage). Nerfing the damage on ult wouldn't even be necessary.

I tested this with Partitioned Mallet on Octavia. It doesn't damage through walls, but two of them, when placed well, cover most of any Sanctuary map.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Uthael

[Chimiasai]

I understand well your point about the map-nuking but the problem with the map-nuking, it's how we can see it and how we could fix it.

While i can see well how Volt and Saryn are totally nuking the mobs without thinking, well... They're not nuking in open-space and their fair amount of power in those open-area would be hindered if we removed their ability to nuke all of a sudden. At the opposite, in the plains of eidolon (for example) we don't have a saryn or volt who'll nuke every grineers but instead the use of some frames like Mirage/chroma or even Mesa since they're not stuck with any walls and they work well against the differents vehicles for the plain. (And i assure you, when there's a chroma who instagib any vehicles in the plains, a defense mission is boring as heck)

That's an example on how we can see nuking in a differents ways. Map-nuking is actually existing because some warframes work well, even too well, in some cases. And how we could fix it? Ehhh... Difficult to think about it because, for example, Saryn suffer to have two "nuke" in her kit.

Her 1 has the potential to constantly wipe a map while her 4 is actually a nuke by itself. So how we can change Saryn to make her less reliant on these two ability? Slowing down the rate of her 1 is only a bandaid and won't work without punishing the saryn who don't work with a high-range build. Decreasing the power of her 4 won't change anything since it's mostly the viral proc that nuke the enemies in the area. So how? That's a difficult question that i can't answer but i can give some ideas.

We can propose some way to rework those nukes but we also have to think about how those new powers work: Not only for the identity of the warframe, of the game but also how those powers work in differents situations and if they've their "niche" like Volt does.