Map nuking. Is it really necessary? (minor rant inc)

[krc473]

1 minute ago, FitzSimmons said:

that's where they tried to get more money by selling blue and yellow resource booster.

They have no affect on bounty drops. Or rotation reward.

[FitzSimmons]

1 minute ago, krc473 said:

They have no affect on bounty drops. Or rotation reward.

i think most bounty missions is about defending and escorting, not mass killing. rotation is about luck isn't it? i remember playing fissure with intention to get a common reward in a relic and all i got mostly are uncommon, then rare, uncommon, common but not what i was looking for. just like playing onslaught elite, all of the rewards have the same chance except 1, i need to get my hands on relics other than lith z1 but all i got is z1 and scene, so in my opinion doesn't matter how fast the game ends, if it isnt my time or my luck to get what i wanted then it won't happen to me. from my experience i feel the same way with the OP, doesn't matter if it takes longer.

[krc473]

2 minutes ago, FitzSimmons said:

from my experience i feel the same way with the OP, doesn't matter if it takes longer.

For me, there is what I consider a reasonable expectation for the farm. I do not really mind 10-20 repeats to get one part. That is acceptable to me. But anything over 20 repeats is just too much. I quite like just playing with Valkyr and here claws. But there is a point where single target damage is just too slow. It does get to a point where the grind just need to end. So map nukers are required. Because it gets the mission done faster. 

 

To me, just playing Valkyr with a shotgun is quite fun. But after a point its just beyond ridiculous. So, I swap to map nuking. I do not enjoy that style of play, but it really is required to maintain sanity. I find spin-2-win incredibly boring for example. Or any other AoE damage setup. But sometimes it is all that gets me through the grind.

[MechaEmperor7000]

One idea me and my friends had was to have another version of Onslaught where it's a boss rush; you fight simulated versions of bosses one after the other, progressively getting harder. This wasn't originally to solve the nuking problem, but was because Onslaught as it is now is essentially a more refined version of Defense + Survival and we thought there was some potential for it to be different. Or even just make it so that you fight otherwise abnormally hard enemies like Index foes, Noxes and Prosecutors, or Sentients. Those enemies usually don't give half a crap about nuking abilities. Especially Noxes, who do show up in Defense and Survival missions and it usually causes people to stop spamming their nukes to individually deal with them.

Basically there are ways to make "upgraded" versions of missions that don't require nuking and give them viable loot drops, which would make them end-game worthy and allow people to farm them instead of the usual Hydron/Hieracon/Bere/ESO/Io.

[Gnohme]

"It feels powerful, it's cool to feel powerful" - does anyone else have any other argument? That's a pretty weak one when what you're asking is for people to just lay down their arms and enjoy the free XP. Okay - I'm only about 400ish hours into the game - and I have 10 frames but no primes yet. Plenty of weapons - but I like to shift through these things a lot. I'm actually at a point in the game where I almost don't care about earning more S#&$ - like I have a lot of fun S#&$ to play around with. But every time I run into this nuking nonsense I'm leaving the match. It's boring. I want to run around and hit things and shoot things - if the difficulty scale of the missions is the problem - change that. If balance is the problem - change that. Until then I'll be hitting "leave squad" every time enemies start dying in their spawn points. Honestly I still think it'd be a great idea to make it so some aoe attacks just don't pass through walls. On a mission like IO you could still clear the entire area but you'd at the very least have to wait until they came outside the doors. But nope! That's not enough power for yall. You wanna hit a button and watch the sun explode I get it. Have fun with that I guess. This isn't like a huge detriment to my experience overall because I'm not like constantly playing defense missions - but all the arguments I read are basically "pick up a magazine and enjoy the free XP". I don't need free XP. I don't need credits. I just wanna play. 

[sixmille]

Le 22/06/2018 à 05:03, Datam4ss a dit :

I am a supporter of map nuking. Probably because I am already half dead inside when it comes to Warframe and can't even find the motivation to keep going, so it is nice if someone clears the map for me. People really need to chill over the Epeen.

Because pretty much most of the "nerfs are good for the game" and "I cannot get kills" crowd want said kills to pad their Epeen. That is all. Humans love to feed their own overbearing egos. They cannot stand it when their kill stat is terrible, because Warframe is a game about well, killing things.

Sure, when I take Saryn I don't appreciate another Saryn messing around with my spore spread, but if I am Trin and giving you all infinite energy, I expect you all to nuke the map. Again and again. Or else there is no point.

Therefore, whenever people cry for nerfs, IMO, most of the time it is unjustified. Humans should stop making everyone sink to their level, and instead seek to elevate themselves. But who knew that grinding for a frame is so hard, right? That it is easier to cry for nerfs than git gud or get the right tool.

If you really want the Epeen so bad, go get a map nuke frame. If you want to play support like Trin or Harrow, stop complaining.

That's your words, not ours, because nobody ever said here that they wanted to pad their stats. However, people are saying "I am bored, DE please do something about it". That's less than 10 words of worthy feedback (it's entertainment, boredom is a problem) and i would advise to keep your pseudo freudian narrative to yourself because it's very disrespectful to put words in other people's mouth, especially when they do not accurately depict their intentions.

The way I enjoy the game is nobody else's business either so if i say "I have nothing to do when someone is spamming nukes and it is boring", you better take my word for it because again, you don't have to tell me how to spend my free time. What's wrong with all of you? Can't you have a civil discussion about this?

Edited June 30, 2018 by sixmille

[Guest]

3 hours ago, sixmille said:

That's your words, not ours, because nobody ever said here that they wanted to pad their stats. However, people are saying "I am bored, DE please do something about it". That's less than 10 words of worthy feedback (it's entertainment, boredom is a problem) and i would advise to keep your pseudo freudian narrative to yourself because it's very disrespectful to put words in other people's mouth, especially when they do not accurately depict their intentions.

The way I enjoy the game is nobody else's business either so if i say "I have nothing to do when someone is spamming nukes and it is boring", you better take my word for it because again, you don't have to tell me how to spend my free time. What's wrong with all of you? Can't you have a civil discussion about this?

Because, apparently, being civil and not calling out a problem at its root by acting all pretentious gets nothing solved. This is not the first "nerf this" thread I have seen, and it probably won't be the last. Also, apparently, when we have explained why the map nukers kill more than the supports, the return argument is simply "but I have big gun, so what I am EV Trinity, I want to shoot and ignore my role and job". Or even worse "your Saryn is outkilling my Mesa, so not fun! Nerf Saryn!".

And in the end, why? Simply because of stat padding, or because the guy calling for nerfs didn't kill stuff because he was unwilling to actually try too hard. Again, because he looks at himself getting left behind for not putting effort into mastering movement and actively killing before the map nukers.

And remember, this is YOUR words. Don't tell us what to do if you don't want us to tell you what to do. I'm not just going to "take your word for it", because that's your perspective, which you are trying to push as gospel truth, not simply a player's opinion. Sure, you have your supporters, but you also have your detractors. And they are as numerous as the people who share your view.

Sure, you have nothing to do because you are unwilling to help your team. Trinity can supply Energy. Rhino can buff the nuker. Equinox can charge up her 4 with the nuker's help to unleash an even bigger one. You have many things to do. You just don't want to do them in favor of making the rest of the team play the way YOU want. After all, when you say everyone else is wrong, isn't it time to ... perhaps take a look at yourself?

 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

On 2018-06-13 at 11:01 AM, Streaky_Haddock said:

I don't really look down on nukers, I'm not against them and I'm not really the type to get jealous, but recently when I was playing elite onslaught and the saryn/equinox both dropped and it was just me and some other dude, things got a lot more fun.

I completely fine with nukers too as long as they have their own place, but that place is crossing over into other frame territory, which is a problem. 

I frequently play with two friends. Based on our mains we naturally fit together to handle most situations. 

Me: Ash- infinite scaling and priority targets. 

Friend 1: Frost- defense/CC

Friend 2: Saryn - trash wiping and debuff. 

After the rework it's more often like this...

Ash: looking for anything left alive. 

Frost- Nothing to defend against/cc

Saryn- playing the game as usual, except now with infinitely scaling, stacking damage, spreading ability that cost 25 energy. All she needs is someone to distract enemies for her... but wait, she has Molt. Lol

I don't think it's a coincidence they made such a stupidly broken at the same time they release ESO. They're definitely looking for something. Fingers crossed for enemy scaling adjustment finally. 

[Klokwerkaos]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I completely fine with nukers too as long as they have their own place, but that place is crossing over into other frame territory, which is a problem. 

I frequently play with two friends. Based on our mains we naturally fit together to handle most situations. 

Me: Ash- infinite scaling and priority targets. 

Friend 1: Frost- defense/CC

Friend 2: Saryn - trash wiping and debuff. 

After the rework it's more often like this...

Ash: looking for anything left alive. 

Frost- Nothing to defend against/cc

Saryn- playing the game as usual, except now with infinitely scaling, stacking damage, spreading ability that cost 25 energy. All she needs is someone to distract enemies for her... but wait, she has Molt. Lol

I don't think it's a coincidence they made such a stupidly broken at the same time they release ESO. They're definitely looking for something. Fingers crossed for enemy scaling adjustment finally. 

So you probably won't like hearing this but a lot of this is going to boil down to you.

How do I know?  Because I have been in groups for ESO where four Saryn's show up, and they they stand around looking dumb and cry and throw fits they can't kill anything while mine stacks up all the damage and kills.  Why? Because I know what I'm doing and they don't.  I brought the right load out and they didn't.  It's not just about what frame you bring, it's about your skill level and knowledge base as well.  If it wasn't I wouldn't have 70% damage after 8 rounds with 4 saryns on a team when they directly compete with spores.

If you know your maps, if you know your hazards, if you know your enemy types and you know your spawn points and clusters and load outs and all that, then you will be able to dominate the map.  Ash is frankly the wrong tool for the job in ESO, so is frost.  You "can" bring them there, but it's also a bad move.  Literally since when have frost and ash been relevant?  There is literally no time I can think of that you'd use frost instead of limbo, and there is literally no reason to use ash except in a boss assassinate sortie that's kinda annoying, but at that point it's also just as easy to put a shotgun in their face too.

Like I've said repeatedly, if you don't like it, play solo, form your own group, git gud, or uninstall.  When you go to a pug, it's random, and you get what you get, and that includes me being annoyed at times for having to carry whiney and ungrateful sub optimal players too, so you're not the only one that gets annoyed in this equation.  If you choose to play sub optimally and someone else chooses to play optimally and that makes you mad, that's more about you than them.

Frankly most often when I have a superior try hard in a group, I'm often fine to just sit back and collect my loot and let them run around doing all the work while shouting "America!  F*** Yeah!"  At that point I'm like, "cool dude, I'm just going go on mopping up loot detail and take a well deserved break while you try hard".  I don't understand why more people don't adopt the same attitude, they'd probably be happier if they did.

This thread is officially ancient at this point.  What I've taken to doing at this point is when people cry in chat about how they can't kill anything, I just stop picking them off the floor because 99% of the time they are undergeared with the wrong load out and wouldn't last if I wasn't carrying them to begin with.  I feel that this point helps hammer it home and they can screw up their own focus leech farm if they want to cry, or leave after that round, I'm perfectly happy with that.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

@Klokwerkaos, my only reference to ESO was in relationship to the rework timing, i didn't say that's where i was teaming with my friends with those loadouts.

I'm MR25 and have over 1500 hours in this game, and play every frame regularly, so it's not an issue of lack of experience. I've had top damage in ESO with Ash, and even Nyx for that matter.

None of your elitist boasting has actually contradicted the fact that Saryn is blatantly unbalanced to the point of making other frames who specialize entirely on damage unnecessary, and to a lesser degree frames designed for support and cc as well.

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

@Klokwerkaos, my only reference to ESO was in relationship to the rework timing, i didn't say that's where i was teaming with my friends with those loadouts.

I'm MR25 and have over 1500 hours in this game, and play every frame regularly, so it's not an issue of lack of experience. I've had top damage in ESO with Ash, and even Nyx for that matter.

None of your elitist boasting has actually contradicted the fact that Saryn is blatantly unbalanced to the point of making other frames who specialize entirely on damage unnecessary, and to a lesser degree frames designed for support and cc as well.

Saryn is fine how she is, and she's not the worst offender since you are part of the nerf scream crowd.

Volt is, and Equinox is just as wipey.

Every frame has a place, and some frames are outshadowed by other ones.  You ignored several points I made and replaced it with "elitist" when you should be asking yourself "what is the right tool for the job?" and you don't, so that's more a you problem than anything.

And again, if you want to play a specific way, that's all you man, go put your own group together!  Like you said, you're MR 25 with over 1500 hours (me too and half the forums, woo hoo, congrats, feel special) and you really should know how to do that by now and you shouldn't have to be told.

There are solutions.  You choose not to take them, that's really about you, not everyone else.

Everyone shouldn't be forced to play like you want.  Sometimes players want to push their builds to the maximum and be as efficient as possible for their grind.  If you don't want to, great!  That's your CHOICE, but don't spoil everyone else's choices by forcing your playstyle on us.  Go put your own group together, go solo, git gud, or uninstall, it's really that simple.  You have 4 full options there that don't include impeding the fun of others simply enjoying the game the way they want.

I don't force you to group with me, there is no gun to your head.  There is no valid reason you can't put your own group together, literally none.

Not all frames are perfectly balanced, nor should they be, otherwise there would be no point in different frames with different levels of acquisition, they should play differently.  That diversity is what makes warframe so appealing to so many players.  You are entitled to play your Ash in a PUG all day, and I'll be annoyed that you aren't pulling your weight and you'll be annoyed that I'm doing everything, and we can both hate each other quietly and civilly until we get annoyed enough to put our own groups together, and you bet your butt I do.  

At times I get sick of carrying whiny players that cry all day about how they can't keep up.  Not my problem.  I'm here to clear as fast as possible and I will do that with any frame that can, regardless of how many you nerf and that's not going to stop, EVER.  If that's not fun for you, leave the group and join another.   Lots of us enjoy playing this way and it's not up to you to dictate our playstyles any more than it is for us to dictate to you that you have to play with us the way we want.

Seriously stop the entitlement.

The game isn't balanced, it's never going to be unless you want to turn it into the bland borefest that is destiny 2, and if you want that just go play that PoS game of boring garbage.  Much of the fun in warframe comes with the depth of customization, and with that means there are many ways to optimize effectively, and there will always be players that want the grind to happen as fast as humanly possible, and they will always trounce the garbage load outs into the ground.   

This doesn't make your (tr)Ash frame useless, he has a job.  His job is F-ing up an annoying sortie boss once in a while.  That's how you use Ash optimally.  If you want to play him and choose to handicap yourself by bringing him to other situations that is a CHOICE, and you can suffer those consequences without making it MY problem.  

The only people who really have a right to complain here are people that enjoy frames that have no job like Wu Kong, but in those situations the answer isn't to nerf everything, it's to buff wu kong to give him a role of something he's good at and have a reason to be used.  When is the last time you saw a Vauban?  It's because he has no job.  Get these frames something to be good at is what we should be looking at, not "my frame can't stand up to your frame when my frame is sub optimal for the job and yours is the right choice", that's just bad decision making.  You CAN choose to play Ash for everything, sure, but it's not my fault that he's not good at everything, nor should he be.

That's like me complaining about how I kept getting screwed on the radiation sortie defense the other day with Nidus and then realized if I wanted to get it done quickly I'd need to solo with Limbo.  So I did.  Am I now screaming "Nerf Limbo!" or "Buff Nidus!".... No.  You put the right tool into the job, even though I hardly ever use limbo because I don't really enjoy him.

If you don't want to put the right tool into the job, again YOU DON'T HAVE TO.  But that's YOUR CHOICE, and you can have the consequences of that choice, and if you've been playing and doing as much as you say you have, you have no excuse not to know what frames are good at what content.  I can more easily excuse an MR 9 making this dumb argument, but you really should know better and have no excuse not to.

If it helps, I used to get mad when I brought nidus to eso and people would destroy my larva and I cried about it like you are now... and then someone said to me in chat "the point is to kill everything as fast as possible." To which I then thought about what I was doing wrong, because they were right.  So I adapted.

The problem with frames like ash and frost and such is that they were built when the game was young for different content and they are useful for that content... until you get access to more advanced frames... can you really say there is a job for frost with a limbo in the party?  No... Because limbo is a direct upgrade to point defense... and if you should play damage frost... why when there are so many better damage frames?  

Think about why you are selecting a frame and what content it is suited to.  And if you choose to be suboptimal for your own enjoyment,  that's a choice you make.  Frost is for newb content.  He's not a meta frame anymore, there are better frames for the job.

And the old rule of the best defense is an overpowering offense still holds true.  That wisdom doesn't change just because you feel it should in warframe.  The enemy cant hit you or the objective of they are already dead.  So since that makes the most efficient style of game, many of us will continue to do that because efficiency is fun for us and gives us measured enjoyment through success.

Ultimately if you want to play like a scrub that's your choice and that's fine but don't make it everyone else's problem.  It's already enough our problem that people choose to bring frames not best suited to the content and then cry about it in chat.  Trying to take away out power frames is firstly, bad practice, and secondly futile because as soon as you nerf a thing we will just find the next best thing to wipe everything... until of course all frames play identically and have no customization or power disparity, at which point you will have succeeded in destroying the entire point of the games progression and turned it into Destiny 2.  

 

When I bring a load out with the best frame for the job, with max arcane, god tier rivens and god tier load outs, if you are playing anything but that you shouldn't expect to keep up.  And if you don't have that stuff maybe you should make that a priority to acquire like I did and everyone else did that has it.  And if that's too hard, well, too bad.  We did it, what's your excuse?

Edited July 1, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[qscgg]

of course it's necessary... can you image without map nuking how much times of time you need to grind for those things? even with booster and map nuking frame, it took me more than 700 hours just to reach MR20, not mentions only few weapons and frames I truly like have multiple forma on it.
PS...or maybe you can just be an A****** leecher, I think it works too... 

Edited July 1, 2018 by qscgg

[SenorClipClop]

15 hours ago, qscgg said:

of course it's necessary... can you image without map nuking how much times of time you need to grind for those things?
PS...or maybe you can just be an A****** leecher, I think it works too... 

Sometimes you see people defending game elements that let players play with minimal effort (to the point that the rest of the squad has nothing to do to). Sometimes you see people talk trash about players who benefit from exp in those missions where they do nothing because one person does everything immediately.

But it's a rare find to see a person do both of those things at the same time.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

I enjoy it when dealing with intercept or other group missions where I'm generally doing someone's job for them or picking up the slack for anyone else. I don't care if someone rushes off in the 85494789535483th exterminate I'm going to get kills. Good for them, glad someone out there still cares because I'm at the point where I want to get in and get out as quickly as possible with whatever I'm trying to do. There's always solo if you care that much.

[Kuva_Farmer]

sigh here we go again, just do what you are supposed to do according to your frame/role. this is a co-op game not a pissing contest game to see who get the most kill, you want fun? go to recruit chat choose what role you want to be and play, i am sure everyone can have fun if you try hard enough act and move fast then you get the kill, also most people won't complain about that because nukes help grinding fast, old player won't prioritise fun over efficient, you want fun? then you can have a private game or try hard enough in pub to kill and have fun 

[Kyenhael]

Map clearing abilities are not needed at all. Most people saying that these skills are needed want those abilities to make the game (or grind) easier, not better. They argue that the game is about grinding the same mission over and over until you drop dead. Then they want to grind that same mission over and over just pressing one button.Then they say the grinding is not fun. So the grind using one button. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. They are playing in the least fun way possible just to get the shiny loot which will allow them to grind more pressing just one button. They are not even grinding for the loot anymore, they are just grinding to grind. The new loot is not even needed to help them clear rooms most of the time.

 

People seem to forget about playing these missions for fun. I've been playing this game for years (taking a couple of breaks), and the way I grind for things is by playing different missions or grinding different things when I get tired of repeating the same mission. Farm kuva for a little bit, get sick of it, farm some wisps, get tired of it, do some eidolons, etc. Instead, people burn themselves out farming for the newest loot because they want it immediately. Just play the game to have fun. Don't grind just for the sake of grinding. You will can get things and still have fun playing missions. Just add some variety to it.

 

However, if you join public matches at the current time, you are signing up for whatever the other players want to do with their frames. So unfortunately, the only advice for now is to either play with friends, or try your best to appreciate the benefits of being lazy when someone joins the mission and renders your frame irrelevant. 

[Reaver_X]

except level grinding is hardly ever that fun, hence the reason people want to bring nuke frames to hydron, so they can level up they're stuff quickly and move on to the much more enjoyable content (eidolon hunts, onslaught, etc). so no i don't think its that big a deal to have abilities that are capable of wiping out large area's at low level, the problem becomes when people can just stand in one place and spam 1 button in content thats actually supposed to be challenging. People are naturally going to find the fastest way to level up and do what they need to do regardless of what changes are made. I don't play hydron for fun, i do it because its one of the fastest ways to level my gear for the content i really want to do.

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

On 2018-06-22 at 12:25 PM, MechaEmperor7000 said:

One idea me and my friends had was to have another version of Onslaught where it's a boss rush; you fight simulated versions of bosses one after the other, progressively getting harder. This wasn't originally to solve the nuking problem, but was because Onslaught as it is now is essentially a more refined version of Defense + Survival and we thought there was some potential for it to be different. Or even just make it so that you fight otherwise abnormally hard enemies like Index foes, Noxes and Prosecutors, or Sentients. Those enemies usually don't give half a crap about nuking abilities. Especially Noxes, who do show up in Defense and Survival missions and it usually causes people to stop spamming their nukes to individually deal with them.

Basically there are ways to make "upgraded" versions of missions that don't require nuking and give them viable loot drops, which would make them end-game worthy and allow people to farm them instead of the usual Hydron/Hieracon/Bere/ESO/Io.

This sounds like a really neat idea.  However, I think it would require a major pass on a lot of the bosses.  Too many of them rely on invincibility phases where your doing nothing periods of time.  If you took that away though every boss would become "The Sergeant" where breathing on the boss might kill him.  It would definitely require a rethinking and major rework of a lot of the bosses and boss battles in this game in general.  I still think it'd be better if bosses were basically bullet sponges, but that's for another thread.

 

On 2018-06-17 at 9:49 AM, Nishishi said:

For now the only options arround that is to :

- Play with friend that can moderate they murdering lust and take turn having fun.
- Having everyone go separate ways in order to each have their own pocket ennemies in different corners of the map.
- Gimp yourself playing a "support" character that isn't rewarding because of how tedious it is to play/build (and not suposed to exist as a entierly dedicated gameplay) and unrewarding.

I think a forth option would simply be:

- Add a line-of-sight check to all AoE abilities.

It would be a start anyway.  I think doing that would eliminate a lot of the grief that players feel when being robbed of their player agency by room wide nuke spam.  It'd force players to work for kills just like any other DPS frame i.e. Excalibur, Atlas etc.  If they had simply done this in the first place Ember wouldn't have had to eat such a heavy nerf to World on Fire.

On 2018-07-01 at 9:15 PM, Avalean said:

People seem to forget about playing these missions for fun. I've been playing this game for years (taking a couple of breaks), and the way I grind for things is by playing different missions or grinding different things when I get tired of repeating the same mission. Farm kuva for a little bit, get sick of it, farm some wisps, get tired of it, do some eidolons, etc. Instead, people burn themselves out farming for the newest loot because they want it immediately. Just play the game to have fun. Don't grind just for the sake of grinding. You will can get things and still have fun playing missions. Just add some variety to it.

Agreed, but a lot of it I think is also an incompatibility of play styles as well.  I tend to favor DPS frames like Excalibur etc that can't nuke a whole room instantly, or weapon heavy frames like Vauban, Chroma, Limbo, Mirage etc, who rely more on gun-play and buffs etc to get things done.  Coming into certain missions with the likes of Saryn or Equinox who can clear entire rooms without batting an eye already puts me at certain disadvantages. 

Now I've seen some of the main arguments in a lot of the threads dealing with caster nukes amounting, "your still getting the exp so who cares?" or "your epeen is just hurt cause your not top deeps", as well as what you've addressed.  However, I think whats really at the heart of it is the level of player agency we have to kill enemies now and the disproportionate effect that has on teammates.  Nuke frames with the current power creep we have generate a disproportionate agency effect that can rob agency from other players, and when a teammate  starts disproportionately getting robbed of their agency to act on enemies it can lead to having less enjoyment in a given mission.  The worst offenders right now that generate this effect, in my opinion, are Saryn, Equinox, and Volt to a lesser extent.  So when you combine that with the different goals people have in a mission, aka "wanting to get the damn thing over with and move on vs wanting to relax and just have fun", and "Nukes vs Guns/Buffs/CC" it creates a rift between players.

I still think there's a place for damaging abilities like room nukes, but I think without some kind of line-of-sight check/toning down the damage etc, or some other adjustments I don't think you'll be able to bridge the gap between play styles and goals.  Overall I don't think its healthy for the long term future of the game either. 

This argument is going to invariably keep happening until someone on the dev team does a balance pass on the frames and decides its a problem.

Edited July 4, 2018 by (PS4)ZeroSection

[-AncientWarrior-]

On 2018-07-01 at 1:49 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

So you probably won't like hearing this but a lot of this is going to boil down to you.

How do I know?  Because I have been in groups for ESO where four Saryn's show up, and they they stand around looking dumb and cry and throw fits they can't kill anything while mine stacks up all the damage and kills.  Why? Because I know what I'm doing and they don't.  I brought the right load out and they didn't.  It's not just about what frame you bring, it's about your skill level and knowledge base as well.  If it wasn't I wouldn't have 70% damage after 8 rounds with 4 saryns on a team when they directly compete with spores.

If you know your maps, if you know your hazards, if you know your enemy types and you know your spawn points and clusters and load outs and all that, then you will be able to dominate the map.  Ash is frankly the wrong tool for the job in ESO, so is frost.  You "can" bring them there, but it's also a bad move.  Literally since when have frost and ash been relevant?  There is literally no time I can think of that you'd use frost instead of limbo, and there is literally no reason to use ash except in a boss assassinate sortie that's kinda annoying, but at that point it's also just as easy to put a shotgun in their face too.

Like I've said repeatedly, if you don't like it, play solo, form your own group, git gud, or uninstall.  When you go to a pug, it's random, and you get what you get, and that includes me being annoyed at times for having to carry whiney and ungrateful sub optimal players too, so you're not the only one that gets annoyed in this equation.  If you choose to play sub optimally and someone else chooses to play optimally and that makes you mad, that's more about you than them.

Frankly most often when I have a superior try hard in a group, I'm often fine to just sit back and collect my loot and let them run around doing all the work while shouting "America!  F*** Yeah!"  At that point I'm like, "cool dude, I'm just going go on mopping up loot detail and take a well deserved break while you try hard".  I don't understand why more people don't adopt the same attitude, they'd probably be happier if they did.

This thread is officially ancient at this point.  What I've taken to doing at this point is when people cry in chat about how they can't kill anything, I just stop picking them off the floor because 99% of the time they are undergeared with the wrong load out and wouldn't last if I wasn't carrying them to begin with.  I feel that this point helps hammer it home and they can screw up their own focus leech farm if they want to cry, or leave after that round, I'm perfectly happy with that.

This says it perfectly .. I solo'd about 70% of my 3320 hrs .. the rest is my "friends only" / "invite only" team along with a small percentage being public ... I never have worried about nukers.. why should I they do the work for me, I get to the sweep the floor for goodies .. happy days.. and when I have the need to get down and dirty .. its solo or invite only.. everybody happy :)  no need to complain as all avenues are covered..

[Justice_Ember]

My take on this issue is very simple, multi class frames will under perform in a regular setting while metaclass frames will over perform in an irregular setting, this means that when you go into Public matches outside meta you will have a bad time but if you go with the top tier meta you'll have a blast.

This is not due to players or developers intentions but it is rooted in lack of experience, my clan and I are very much accustomed to playing outside the meta so when we individually find players doing the same we know to play with them, this, sadly is not true for the vast majority of the players.

Warframe is not a game to be rushed, and in doing so you are forced into thinking inside a box. A box that will tell you that there are good and bad frames, that certain weapons are not viable, that there is one way to play the game. These are all lies, 

Do what you want and try to enjoy everyone else doing the same.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

One simple objective fact is that too many nerfs, and nerfing things without replacing the stats with making the thing you're nerfing better in some other way which prevents it from being exploited but also maintains a want for the player to use it, will ultimately ruin a game. I've been playing this daily for around six months now.... Every change ive seen them make to the game has been a deliberate and heavy handed nerf without addressing the issues that cause people to use the exploits. That means in six months they've gone from a game that I loved to deliberately snatching anything I enjoy using out of my hands as quickly as I found it. They need to leave players alone. If people are exploiting your game, there's a reason they're doing it, and that is what you need to address, not the methods by which they are bypassing a fundamental failure on the part of the developer. 

This most recent thing with trinity, nekros, and so on, is just further proof that while they know how to make a game they don't know what they're doing in the way of player retention and balance. Nobody used trinity, ever, at all, before the jump nuke was discovered. By removing it, they've only made sure that now nobody will ever use Trinity ever again. Brilliant. If they're going to remove the "transmission of self harm", then they need to remove self damage as a principle from the game entirely once and for all. Otherwise weapons like castanas, talons, etc, have no reason to exist now unless quick secondary is added into the game. The weapon type was trash to begin with but is now just pointless. 

What DE needs to do is vocally ignore anyone who calls for nerfs. It's going to end up damaging their title soon because literally the only thing they're doing is running nerf after nerf. If you want to see what happens to a game that's nerfed one too many things one too many times, look at Destiny 2's failure. Sure, it's got people come back to play it, finally..... But everyones only doing it because Bungle has promised something amazing with the first expansion. If that falls on its face, it'll die in a few weeks and this time it will be permanent. Don't take destiny for a role model. No more nerfs. Buff whats underperforming. 

 

[Rocktimus-Rhyme]

This would make DE remove Stretch from the game. I don't think anyone wants that.

[Kyenhael]

On 2018-07-05 at 6:35 AM, (PS4)ZeroSection said:

Agreed, but a lot of it I think is also an incompatibility of play styles as well.  I tend to favor DPS frames like Excalibur etc that can't nuke a whole room instantly, or weapon heavy frames like Vauban, Chroma, Limbo, Mirage etc, who rely more on gun-play and buffs etc to get things done.  Coming into certain missions with the likes of Saryn or Equinox who can clear entire rooms without batting an eye already puts me at certain disadvantages. 

I think that is one of the reason's I've always liked hybrid classes, or in the case warframes. If there's already someone doing a job, you can look for a gap and try to fill it. It's interesting that you mention Equinox, because to me her main appeal is that if there's someone nuking, I can switch to night form and cover other aspects of the team. If there's someone healing or slowing, I can switch to day form and buff damage or nuke. 

So yes, play styles are important. However, as I mentioned in my post, the play style angle of most people arguing that nuking is necessary is the efficiency play style. Most people are not nuking the whole map for fun. These are probably the same kind of people who like auto play in mobile games. Maybe it's a generation gap, but I cannot understand that mentality.

[(PSN)DeathStroke1910]

On 2018-06-09 at 11:38 PM, Uskradetat said:

Allow me to just preface this by saying I am expecting to get a bit of flak for this ranting/whining, but it has to be said.

Is this really necessary to have in the game? Warframes being able to spam nuke the entire map in 1-2 buttons with next to no setup is the single most Fun Destroying thing in this game. (next to limbo impeding your ability to actually shoot anything. rip. that's whole other topic) 

I want to be able to join public matches to play with other people, not stand around with my **** in my hand not able to contribute because there's a Saryn, an Equinox, a Banshee or a Volt etc nuking the entire map every 5 seconds. I find I'm spending more and more time running around looking for things to attack than actually attacking. 
This is just not an enjoyable experience in the least for anybody besides the person killing everything. It's not about the focus, affinity, damage or whatever. It's about the fact there is barely anything left for anyone else to do. And it's not a rare occurrence as we all know, we all run into these builds in every other match we join and they just suck the fun out of it. 

"would you rather the mission took 10 times longer?": I play this game for fun like most people, if a mission takes twice as long but is twice as fun, I don't see a problem with that, that's time well spent IMO. 

"Why not just host your own games then?": Convenience, more than anything. The ability to just jump into a random squad is great, rather than the hassle of finding 1-3 other people in recruitment and having someone leave cause its taking too long etc. I also don't like to host due to distance, generally makes other people lag if I host. 

"If you don't like it, just leave the match." Leave every other match? it's difficult enough to find squads half the time in my region, let alone finally getting into say an ESO for example, just to leave and re-queue because of one of these frames 

There is a very fine line to be drawn between both Fun and Efficiency in this game and I understand it's incredibly difficult to strike a balance. But this S#&$ is ridiculous. 

I love this game, I'm only 375 hours in, and I can safely say this is one the best games I've played in recent years. But this nuking S#&$ I've been gritting my teeth over since day one. Could it be toned back a tad?

I know how you feel. we've all been there. but heres how you fix the problem. you get the nuke. and you have fun. go to recruitment chat and get someone to taxi you to the boss to farm you're your nuke. ITS PvE. NUKES ARE OKAY. just go endurance if you wanna have fun. don't go to a fricken extreminate to get kills. got to MoT and and go an hour or two.

[Oonue]

I can run valkyr and struggle to get to wave 6 on onslaught or play my maim equinox and get to wave 8 every time.

Considering my haul of 3 neuropics and no other parts after playing onslaught for half of yesterday, i'll stick with the equinox