Limbo Rework

[deawon2]

So, DE decided to rework Limbo AGAIN.

I've been playing Limbo since he was released, and he's been my main warframe since. I've logged more hours on him than all my other frames combined.
When DE first announced a Limbo rework back in 2017, I got worried, but when it came out in March, it was all we could hope for and more!

And now, on account of the community complaining about his abilities being "trolling" , DE have implemented the following changes:
- Halved Stasis duration
- Changed Stasis to only affect enemy projectiles

And I have to ask: Why?
Limbo got changed because the community complained that he wasn't multiplayer friendly, but he has, is, and will always be a solo frame.
Not to mention the complaints are only about people who are new to the frame, because experienced players know how to mod him for specific mission types and know when not to use abilities in multiplayer.

The most fun thing to do with him would be to wait till enemies swarmed you while in the rift, pop your stasis and catclysm and proceed to shoot everything. After which you got into a good position to view the carnage and disabled stasis, watching everything die like a glorious action scene.
That's no longer possible.

The duration nerf: Seriously what's the point? Stasis and Cataclysm had a beautiful synchronicity between them which is now completely ruined. The timers are now completely off, and you're looking at your ability bar more than you're actually playing the game.

This seemingly tiny change has made a frame that I was proud to main, into something I don't even want to play anymore. Thank you for ruining my experience DE. You did something right with this frame when you did the rework, but now you've turned that positive a complete 180.

I'm not the only one who feels strongly about this change, and I'm not that good with words, but this guy explains it much better than I ever could: 

 

[Chewarette]

That's a coop game, so this nerf was welcome.

It was insane that this "time-stopping Rift forcing all your teammates to use only their Melee weapons" survived this long.

[Buzkyl]

31 minutes ago, deawon2 said:

Limbo got changed because the community complained that he wasn't multiplayer friendly, but he has, is, and will always be a solo frame.

Well thank goodness this is a co-op game and frames should be initially as we are going to play with others.

 

32 minutes ago, deawon2 said:

The duration nerf: Seriously what's the point? Stasis and Cataclysm had a beautiful synchronicity between them which is now completely ruined. The timers are now completely off, and you're looking at your ability bar more than you're actually playing the game.

You mean you actually HAVE to pay attention to the timer instead of press and forget? Stasis is half of cataclysm duration, if you have difficulty managing a 15s timer I'm unsure how to assist you than just "git gud".

If the Devs are making you pay attention to the duration more post change, the change worked.

[Kronxito]

3 hours ago, deawon2 said:

So, DE decided to rework Limbo AGAIN.

I've been playing Limbo since he was released, and he's been my main warframe since. I've logged more hours on him than all my other frames combined.
When DE first announced a Limbo rework back in 2017, I got worried, but when it came out in March, it was all we could hope for and more!

And now, on account of the community complaining about his abilities being "trolling" , DE have implemented the following changes:
- Halved Stasis duration
- Changed Stasis to only affect enemy projectiles

And I have to ask: Why?
Limbo got changed because the community complained that he wasn't multiplayer friendly, but he has, is, and will always be a solo frame.
Not to mention the complaints are only about people who are new to the frame, because experienced players know how to mod him for specific mission types and know when not to use abilities in multiplayer.

The most fun thing to do with him would be to wait till enemies swarmed you while in the rift, pop your stasis and catclysm and proceed to shoot everything. After which you got into a good position to view the carnage and disabled stasis, watching everything die like a glorious action scene.
That's no longer possible.

The duration nerf: Seriously what's the point? Stasis and Cataclysm had a beautiful synchronicity between them which is now completely ruined. The timers are now completely off, and you're looking at your ability bar more than you're actually playing the game.

This seemingly tiny change has made a frame that I was proud to main, into something I don't even want to play anymore. Thank you for ruining my experience DE. You did something right with this frame when you did the rework, but now you've turned that positive a complete 180.

I'm not the only one who feels strongly about this change, and I'm not that good with words, but this guy explains it much better than I ever could: 

 

Well that is just your opinion.

My opinion is Limbo is great as he is now.  He is very easy to play with and he doesn't disturb anybody anymore (if well used). He is almost a GOD. 

Stopping bullets was not a nice idea.  I mean, what was the point of freezing bullets if enemies were also frozen??? That was redundant and not needed. I am glad they removed it.

About his 2nd duration?? Man..... you won't die if you cast stasis twice rather than once per cataclysm.  Just a pointless crying from your part, in my opinion.

Edited July 2, 2018 by AnGeL_KRoM

[Tenno.Rukasu]

Community is the issue. Limbo isn't a frame like Ember and Rhino, that you can just use any skills at any time. Requires strategy, knowledge and some intelligence. Limbo players are a reflection from our real society, clever people will always be hated. It's not a complicated warframe, you just have to think before using any of his skills, that's all. Problem is those mayhem 'nuke' players, that wanna drop a nuclear bomb in-game. "Look at me, I'm top DPS!"

You can try a different play style now. Rift yourself and when you spot some enemies Cataclism them only, use your 3rd (with Rift Surge) and kill them from outside. Of course will require a lot of energy and Natural Talent, but that is not an issue for Limbo. And old melee play style still working just fine.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Tenno.Rukasu

[Kronxito]

11 minutes ago, Tenno.Rukasu said:

Community is the issue. Limbo isn't a frame like Ember and Rhino, that you can just use any skills at any time. Requires strategy, knowledge and some intelligence. Limbo players are a reflection from our real society, clever people will always be hated.

I agree. Despite Limbo is very easy to understand..... there are people who hate him. For me, it only took 4 or 5 days getting used to him. And now I like him very much.

They just have to read this for understanding Rift mechanics:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Rift_Plane

Edited July 2, 2018 by AnGeL_KRoM

[Tenno.Rukasu]

16 minutes ago, AnGeL_KRoM said:

I agree. Despite Limbo is very easy to understand..... there are people who hate him. For me, it only took 4 or 5 days getting used to him. And now I like him very much.

They just have to read this for understanding Rift mechanics:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Rift_Plane

That's the problem. They won't read. Reading is for clever people.

[mactrent]

4 hours ago, deawon2 said:

Limbo got changed because the community complained that he wasn't multiplayer friendly, but he has, is, and will always be a solo frame.
Not to mention the complaints are only about people who are new to the frame, because experienced players know how to mod him for specific mission types and know when not to use abilities in multiplayer.

I would argue that in a co-op game, we don't need a solo-mostly frame.  It would seem others think he is not, but should minimize his impact on teammates, or that they should just grin and bear it.  I'd much rather that his abilities were re-designed, or the interactive ones simply allowed to work more constructively with a team.

50 minutes ago, AnGeL_KRoM said:

He is very easy to play with and he doesn't disturb anybody anymore (if well used). He is almost a GOD.

This sounds like you might be advocating for either only using half of his kit, or otherwise severely limiting Limbo's playstyle choice as opposed to solo (well used for single effectiveness, or group synergy?).  I do agree he's very powerful, but playing him so that he doesn't disturb anybody either takes all but the very most basic uses of his powers and ignores them completely ("Rift Surge+Banish? Yikes, stick with Cataclysm only!"), or it requires carefully choosing your location and hoping your teammates don't wander into your zone and get confused and bothered, and usually keeping a <100% duration so you keep moving.  If you're using your abilities for anything but the bare minimum to complete the objective, your teammates need limit their own tactics around you - use only damage abilities, stand only in this place, follow-the-leader and hope for portals, or only shoot enemies you've deigned not to touch.  Using Limbo well in that context is limiting your own singlet potential.  I'd prefer if you could use him well to maximize his own potential, and have it not get in the way of his teammates.

21 minutes ago, Tenno.Rukasu said:

Requires strategy, knowledge and some intelligence.

Requires a little all of those things to use his powers effectively as a solo player.  Requires your teammates to know the Rift mechanics (or be lucky enough to be damage ability users like Mesa) in order to continue the core gameplay loop of Warframe, which no other frame can change so drastically.  Requires you to put more effort into micro-managing your team's access to the Rift than in doing damage yourself if your teammates want to actually use their weapons like they're used to.

Cataclysm + Stasis is now the least offensive combo in Limbo's kit, and its positional limitations make sense.  Add in Rift Surge or Banish, though...  "But there's a Cataclysm over there, go stand in it, then you can shoot this enemy that's standing next to you out here!" -said nobody whose teammates were happy with him, ever.  What's worst for your teammates (until you get to high levels, which not everyone is interested in doing) is that you're slowing them down for no discernible benefit to them.  Damage bonus?  Nope, Rift Torrent only gives Limbo bonuses.  Protection?  Energy?  Sure, sometimes.  The people that have spent long enough in the game to understand how to use these benefits aren't going to need it for a good few levels, and in the meantime, there's no "Un-rift this enemy so I can shoot or slash it right now" button.  They can't opt-out of your "benefits".

None of my current complaints would be valid if teammates could always shoot the targets in front of them, unless there's a barrier (Frost's bubble, Cataclysm and Atlas' 2 are sensible barriers, no? Mag's bubble is also at least only in one place...) in the way.  Nyx's mind control and Nidus' link only break core gameplay assumptions like that for a single enemy each.  Remember old Ash Bladestorm?  That broke the assumptions en mass.  It wasn't fun, it was un-fun.  Just because an Ash player could choose to limit that un-fun didn't make it ok.  Limbo will always be the frame everyone's leery of playing with unless the other players get a choice of their own.  There are tons of suggestions recently, so take your pick of any of them - Automatic Plane Shifting, the Peek-a-Boo Rift, nerfing some of his kit and just making material-plane Tenno able to shoot Rifted enemies...

TL;DR: Limbo doesn't need to be a solo frame, and he could be just as fun to play in a team (without getting in their way) as I think he is solo.  It just requires some additional tweaks, because the Stasis change didn't address the root problem.

[mactrent]

49 minutes ago, AnGeL_KRoM said:

I agree. Despite Limbo is very easy to understand..... there are people who hate him. For me, it only took 4 or 5 days getting used to him. And now I like him very much.

They just have to read this for understanding Rift mechanics:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Rift_Plane

Quote

Any combatant within the Rift plane cannot strike combatants that are in the material plane, and vice versa. Simply put, all weapon attacks are ineffective across the different dimensional planes.

This page describes how to get out of the Rift if you're in it, and the fact that damage abilities work across planes.  This is all well and good, but it's not a "now Limbo is easy to work with" button.  They still have to get into the Rift, or leave Rifted enemies unreachable to weapons.  They still have to check for an indicator (or lack thereof) on each enemy of whether their weapons will work or not.  They still get the frustration of enemies switching planes right as they draw a bead, which is not the same as the enemy being pre-emptively killed by some AoE ability, because the enemy is still there, needing to be killed.  They are still subject to Limbo's whims on whether and when any of this becomes a factor, and they are still the only ones who suffer if he's not both knowledgeable and careful.

[Kronxito]

40 minutes ago, mactrent said:

This page describes how to get out of the Rift if you're in it, and the fact that damage abilities work across planes.  This is all well and good, but it's not a "now Limbo is easy to work with" button.  They still have to get into the Rift, or leave Rifted enemies unreachable to weapons.  They still have to check for an indicator (or lack thereof) on each enemy of whether their weapons will work or not.  They still get the frustration of enemies switching planes right as they draw a bead, which is not the same as the enemy being pre-emptively killed by some AoE ability, because the enemy is still there, needing to be killed.  They are still subject to Limbo's whims on whether and when any of this becomes a factor, and they are still the only ones who suffer if he's not both knowledgeable and careful.

And I still think this whole thread is a cry post. But this is just my opinion

[mactrent]

1 minute ago, AnGeL_KRoM said:

And I still think this whole thread is a cry post. But this is just my opinion

Eh, you can say that about any suggestion for improvement or question about design limitations and be nominally correct, opinion or no.  Is there anything in particular about the things I dislike about the Rift that you are expressly opposed to making any changes to?  Anything you feel doesn't actually affect anyone?  "I have to limit myself to a few specific build/playstyle combinations if I want to be part of a team, which leads either to a totally different experience vs solo, or (rightfully or not) angry teammates" is something that does affect me, and IMO could use some adjustments.  You may disagree, but if you could address some of those points rather than the way they're expressed, that would better serve your purpose, I think.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

22 hours ago, Tenno.Rukasu said:

That's the problem. They won't read. Reading is for clever people.

Read what? There's no codex entry for rift mechanics in game. People will need to access third party sources to learn. If Limbo Theorem quest had a tutorial, maybe people will understand him.

[Tenno.Rukasu]

3 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Read what? There's no codex entry for rift mechanics in game. People will need to access third party sources to learn. If Limbo Theorem quest had a tutorial, maybe people will understand him.

80% of games don't have technical information about it. And DE does have a introduction video for all warframes abilities, of course won't have details, numbers, math calculation and mechanics. If you access wiki and read, you will find tons of skills information of all warframes that just some players know about it. Unlike others, Limbo have synergies that require knowledge, can't just guess. At least need to practice and try some.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Tenno.Rukasu

[mactrent]

2 hours ago, Tenno.Rukasu said:

80% of games don't have technical information about it. And DE does have a introduction video for all warframes abilities, of course won't have details, numbers, math calculation and mechanics. If you access wiki and read, you will find tons of skills information of all warframes that just a some players know about it. Unlike others, Limbo have synergies that require knowledge, can't just guess. At least need to practice and try some.

User education is only a solution to so many design problems.  It can't be expected of everyone, and it needs to fail nicely.  Current Limbo fails more nicely after the Stasis change, but still worse than any other frame, for everyone involved.  That makes it an outlier that I'd very much appreciate seeing normalized a bit more.

The self-education solution may be acceptable when Limbo is the only one who is actively harmed by his own ignorance.  When non-Limbo players are harmed by their own ignorance, that's a bit less justifiable - how would they know they need to research every power before joining a pub mission?  When non-Limbo players can have their efforts negated by Limbo's ignorance, regardless of their own knowledge (or lack thereof), asking Limbo to educate himself later doesn't remedy the problem for those players, and it's a really, really bad experience.  Trying to also use that as a learning opportunity for his teammates doesn't seem like a conducive environment, so teammates will have to practice with Limbo some other time as well if they want to figure it out.

Instead, what if the ignorant Limbo was only detrimental to himself, unless the other players made a choice ("stand in this bubble", "activate this Rift buff icon somehow") before they shared in the potential drawbacks (frozen bullets, limited target selection) and larger benefits (damage buff[***], energy, protection from all enemies at Limbo's whim)?  This could be as simple as "non-Rifted Tenno can shoot Rifted enemies", it could be as smooth and cool as Automatic Plane Shifting, or it could involve a more intensive rework like the Peek-a-Boo Rift, but it would take Limbo out of the "more polarizing than a lifetime supply of forma" (-Reb, iirc) place that I don't think DE really wants him in.

*** See above paragraph, this is only a sub-note, though it is something else I would like changed: Currently Rift Torrent, the only source Limbo has for damage buffs, does not apply its benefits to teammates, so that's not even a potential incentive for informed players to join him in the Rift as-is.  The others still apply.

Edited July 3, 2018 by mactrent
Improved visibility of sub-note. It's not that important on its own, but worth including.

[Tenno.Rukasu]

23 minutes ago, mactrent said:

Current Limbo fails more nicely after the Stasis change

After Stasis changes Limbo became a 'god' frame. Now he's the one and only Warframe that can complete any kind of mission at any level being extremely effective in all of them (considering multiple builds). But, I already said that, it requires knowledge. Everything in-game have a downside, must have. When Stasis was buffed, DE Rebecca herself said that would be OP, and ignorant players still hate him.

26 minutes ago, mactrent said:

Currently Rift Torrent, the only source Limbo has for damage buffs, does not apply its benefits to teammates, so that's not even a potential incentive for informed players to join him in the Rift as-is.

I don't know you're a Limbo player, but Rift Torrent is affected by power strength and with the right build can easily achieve +500% weapon damage. Imagine that  combined with others buff, like Roar, Vex Armor and Sonar. It's beyond currently enemy level scaling. You will kill sortie enemies like they were level 15. Some abilities can benefit from the rift, like Mesa Pacemaker which can, literally, be immortal. There's others synergies informed in wiki that can by pass the rift. Just read them or test by your own.

[Lesser_Soul]

Stasis being as is is fine, though the base duration could be improved by like 50% or something. Sacrificing projectiles being affected makes gunplay faster and streamlined for you and teammates in general.

 

Now what isn't faster or streamlined is rift surge and it's set ups. The banish/cata>rift surge>unbanish or similar set up is too long in warframe time compared to just casting cataclysm from the rift or how old banish used to work across dimensions. Because of that, rift surge now just clogs up limbos kit as another ability that banishes as its main function instead of doing anything else like stasis.

Edited July 3, 2018 by -Bv-Concarne

[lNogardl]

The ego in this thread is amazing. "Limbo is for clever people", as much as i love this game and its community, i can't help but feel like everyone just wants to wave their &#036;&amp;*^ around and show how they're much better than everyone and they've grasped things better than everyone, it's a constant thing i see on my clan chat and the forums that it actually gets childish and kinda hilarious.

 

I can't play Limbo, and i'm not even going to bother. Does that make me dumb? Probably by your standards, but i couldn't give two craps about it, he doesn't fit my playstyle at all and i feel a nuisance with whatever i do, it's the ONLY Warframe in the game that makes me feel that way. You can play him, congratulations, i salute you, you're a very smart individual who deserves the spot of Albert Einstein of Warframe.

 

This is the whole rick and morty meme all over again.

[mactrent]

21 minutes ago, Tenno.Rukasu said:

After Stasis changes Limbo became a 'god' frame. Now he's the one and only Warframe that can complete any kind of mission at any level being extremely effective in all of them (considering multiple builds). But, I already said that, it requires knowledge. Everything in-game have a downside, must have. When Stasis was buffed, DE Rebecca herself said that would be OP, and ignorant players still hate him.

He was already a 'god' frame, and the Stasis change didn't actually change his academic potential damage output.  That's not at issue here.  It changed how much fiddling with core mechanics his teammates had to put up with, but that amount is still far higher than any other frame, so to the extent that changing core gameplay without consent is a bad thing, he's still almost as bad.

Limbo is not the only Warframe that can be effective on all mission types, but I can accept that as hyperbole on your part.  You said it requires knowledge.  I agreed, but unlike other frames, it can require knowledge from Limbo's teammates for them to continue playing in a game he happens to have joined.  If it needs a draw-back that's that bad, why not re-design it?  Nerfs would be better than the hatred from ignorant or knowledgeable but unwilling players that don't want to put up with his shenanigans.  They just don't have a choice, which is why they hate him.

21 minutes ago, Tenno.Rukasu said:

I don't know you're a Limbo player, but Rift Torrent is affected by power strength and with the right build can easily achieve +500% weapon damage. Imagine that  combined with others buff, like Roar, Vex Armor and Sonar. It's beyond currently enemy level scaling. You will kill sortie enemies like they were level 15.

I am indeed a Limbo player (solo or pre-mades almost exclusively, yet still my second-most-used frame at MR 25), and I know how stupid high Rift Torrent buffs can get, but they are, yet again, as you seem to have missed in the very sentence you quoted, only applicable to Limbo himself.

I said "not even a potential incentive for informed players to join him in the Rift", not "totally useless power".  At best, Rift Torrent lets Limbo himself kill enemies significantly more quickly than he otherwise would have (forget that normally the choke-point is how many enemies you can target, rather than how much damage you do to each one).  There's still no guarantee that's faster than his teammates would have, and they don't get this bonus, so none of his teammates gain anything from the fact of Limbo's academic damage increase. 

The other players in that scenario are also capable of doing damage that breaks most content in the game, if only Limbo would play nice.  Once again, Rift Torrent buffs might be nice for Limbo, and may even allow a well-oiled team to break the game in highly specific cheese ways, but they are in no way a justification for just plain breaking (in a bad way) the experience for any other players, and once again, are not one of the reasons for an informed teammate to even enter the Rift with Limbo.

17 minutes ago, Tenno.Rukasu said:

Some abilities can benefit from the rift, like Mesa Pacemaker which can, literally, be immortal. There's others synergies informed in wiki that can by pass the rift. Just read them or test by your own.

I know all of them.  That doesn't help anything when you're not one of those frames.  As has also been said ad naseum, not all players know that they're going to be grouped with a Limbo ahead of time, or are interested in bringing a Limbo-proof loadout to all missions.  Harrow is a frame that some people play too.  If you're using this argument, you're saying that people should only play with Limbo in a pre-made squad, but then why would it still be possible to queue as him in a public mission?  It doesn't make sense.

[SoLonelyWolfie]

I've made thread with feedback about statis and made a suggestion for it to give fun and whole meaning of statis back. Feel free to read and post your opinion.

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by SoLonelyWolfie

[Tenno.Rukasu]

2 hours ago, lNogardl said:

The ego in this thread is amazing.

I am sorry if you felt insulted. It wasn't my intention.

[Leqesai]

Chiming in to say that I really dig Limbo in his current state. 

 

Good job DE. He rocks.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Leqesai

[darkkurama213]

man i was ready to buy the prime access too, i was enjoying limbo before (it nerf)  like with 250% duration but then the nerf happend and what is the reason to get it prime? the sword is a joke and prime limbo is just a new skin? and the shotgun pistol is cool i guess but like dam DE you stupid.

[Leqesai]

2 hours ago, darkkurama213 said:

man i was ready to buy the prime access too, i was enjoying limbo before (it nerf)  like with 250% duration but then the nerf happend and what is the reason to get it prime? the sword is a joke and prime limbo is just a new skin? and the shotgun pistol is cool i guess but like dam DE you stupid.

Limbo is miles ahead of where he was before, thanks to the stasis change. Too bad you don't like the changes. 

[Kasa_]

Why are you people complaining the fact that limbo is a more coop friendly warframe now, in a coop game ?

I tried limbo before the changes, and it was annoying, i'm more of a gun person and not being able to shoot ennemies in order to stay alive was frustrating, for me or for my teamates.

After the change, I tested it again and it was A LOT better, i could finally use my abilities without cripling myself or my teamates. I can do sorties without being yelled at. Why ? because everybody can still do what they want when a limbo is here.

When something changes, you must adapt to it so...

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Limbo's gimmick is he literally controls The World. Meme aside, he turns missions into a simulacrum. That's fine but to balance the powers out, they come with downsides other than energy costs.

A good Limbo player is aware of these downsides and knows how to adapt to them but since Limbo controls The World, the downsides also applies to non Limbo players.

If those non Limbo players don't know anything about those side effects, their game experience gets ruined. No other warframe has this problem because no other warframe can turn missions into a controlled environment like the simulacrum.

Limbo needs an in game tutorial. Players banished should have a display on their hud saying "roll to exit rift." Go ahead. Try to find anything in game that says "if Limbo banishes you, roll to exit rift." You will find none.