Please go back as Ash Storm's ability was before

[Nazrethim]

hace 10 horas, (PS4)AllOrNothinDays dijo:

I just think the whole marking thing doesn't work in a game like this, unless they want craft his ult around him playing solo. Things are usually dead by the time I mark things.

 

hace 2 horas, Avynire dijo:

I actually like current bladestorm targeting, but the 3 marking stack kindda annoying. Since the most efficient to max stack is motion sick inducing (trashing mouse around). I wish it gain max damage at 2 stack. 

As I said, simply removing the 2nd and 3rd mark would greatly improve BS' use, since the marks are there, players by instinct try to get them all 3 thinking it's a bonus (it is not), the visuals don't help either. Seeing your screen sepia/monochrome tells you "this is not how you normally play, this is something special". That's why most go for the "4, mark like crazy, 4" when having it on is also perfectly viable (if not a bit undesirable due to lower visibility in dark areas as well as energy drain that locks you out of energy you could use for something else).

And the change I suggest for Rising Storm would make the augment both worth using and adress the annoyance of marking large groups of enemies, it's a win-win situation.

[NeithanDiniem]

3 hours ago, DishSoap said:

Because you personally attack my ability as a player and emphasized that it was my problem? Seems like an act of passive aggression to me.

You're in complete agreement with my original post. The point was that Blade Storm was not in good place to begin with, Blade Storm is in a worse place now, and that it would probably be better for Ash's kit as a whole if they replaced Blade Storm.

um... No? I never personally attacked you or your ability as a player. I said if you are at that point you have reached the level of the game where DE isn't catering to you. They aren't going to make it easy just so people can have it easy. Easy was what the original ash storm was, and that has been rectified. You jumped to conclusions. "Make it work or not" is where you either enter into cheese tactics or find a different strategy to continue. Energy replenishment spam can be one of the cheese methods used to continue on.

No actually I prefer the current Bladestorm over the previous one. I do not think the one we have is a good one though and with all the problems people seem to be stuck on about it Id be of the mindset for DE to just wipe it clean and start that skill over as something entirely different. The original storm was toxic and harmed almost everyone else's experience and lead to people using Ash strictly because he was an easy frame that didnt take skill to use. The new Ash removed that ability and everyone moved on to something else, which has left this lull in people playing Ash outside of those that like the changes because they couldnt stand the slideshow.

[Rakosta_Kai]

22 hours ago, RoninJed said:

Hehe love all the little jabs you get in there...shows that I upset you with my...opinion. 

Actually... I just told you what I think. I don't know you and don't find this exchange interesting enough to care about who you are...No offense.

If my comments feel like "jabs", then they probably just hit close to home...That's all.

22 hours ago, RoninJed said:

Oh and for the record I do not use Saryn at all.

...I chuckled at this.

For the record, if the rest of my comments felt like jabs then you probably should be.

No disresepct intended to Saryn players, of course.

 

[Natfrog123]

On 2018-07-20 at 12:55 PM, RoninJed said:

There are still many frames that are press 4 to win... Take banshee for example. The main reason/excuse why DE changed bladestorm was because it wasn't interactive enough...meanwhile I can press 4 with my banshee and go make a sandwich while I lock down the whole map for defense and interception missions. I'm all in favor of changing his bladestorm back to the way it use to look. He has a ninja theme and all his abilities fit except bladestorm. He's should be more ninja..not multiple man hehe.

If ash doesn't need a rework at all then I wonder why I rarely see anyone using him hehe.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. NO ONE uses Ash. I can press 1 key to win on SOOOOOO many frame and just recently I figured out how to do it with Inaris. 

This is absolutely rediculous that Ash has been gimped so badly I just want the old mechanic back. This manual target selection needs to go. I don't even want a cluster marking system I just want it gone completely no exception. If it isn't instant max targets ond active on 1 push of a button just remove the entire skill.... I mean that is pretty much how Ash is played now anyways with not one single person using it.

[Natfrog123]

6 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

 

As I said, simply removing the 2nd and 3rd mark would greatly improve BS' use, since the marks are there, players by instinct try to get them all 3 thinking it's a bonus (it is not), the visuals don't help either. Seeing your screen sepia/monochrome tells you "this is not how you normally play, this is something special". That's why most go for the "4, mark like crazy, 4" when having it on is also perfectly viable (if not a bit undesirable due to lower visibility in dark areas as well as energy drain that locks you out of energy you could use for something else).

And the change I suggest for Rising Storm would make the augment both worth using and adress the annoyance of marking large groups of enemies, it's a win-win situation.

Why is that important when it's so strong it kills most targets in one mark anyways? However playing in groups on console the targets are already dead before I can go left to right fine aiming at targets to place marks on them anyways. I def do not bring an Ash to ANY group play.

[Natfrog123]

4 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

um... No? I never personally attacked you or your ability as a player. I said if you are at that point you have reached the level of the game where DE isn't catering to you. They aren't going to make it easy just so people can have it easy. Easy was what the original ash storm was, and that has been rectified. You jumped to conclusions. "Make it work or not" is where you either enter into cheese tactics or find a different strategy to continue. Energy replenishment spam can be one of the cheese methods used to continue on.

No actually I prefer the current Bladestorm over the previous one. I do not think the one we have is a good one though and with all the problems people seem to be stuck on about it Id be of the mindset for DE to just wipe it clean and start that skill over as something entirely different. The original storm was toxic and harmed almost everyone else's experience and lead to people using Ash strictly because he was an easy frame that didnt take skill to use. The new Ash removed that ability and everyone moved on to something else, which has left this lull in people playing Ash outside of those that like the changes because they couldnt stand the slideshow.

I agree having enemies not able to be hit by other players was bad.... Simply fix that and the skill is AMAZING and no one would complain about that. So what was left? The motion sickness of the screen jumping? Current bladestorm only sends out clones and you can still jump in if need be but the only problem is the marks. You can't jump in if everything is already dead and no marks exist  so that goes back to the original factor of the system used for his skill to function. The crap marking system. 

If we remove this marking system and automate it again with auto target selection like it was before in an AoE area... Hell I'd be ok with a hydroid type area of effect that instantly marks an area and can be charged for more area of effect but single target marking, even with one mark each, is WAY TOO SLOW on console. It simply doesn't work with other players unless you don't mind wasting your time.

Now with the above said and enemies not being "my targets" anymore we need to talk about the speed of the skill in general. 2 clones needs to changed to a similar method like hydroid. The longer you charge it the more clones you summon and this should be base. I'd change the augment to something like summoned clones throw a shurikan at the closest enemy before returning to the shadows.

It would give the skill great kit synergy. 

Granted I would much rather get the old bladestorm back and just have to deal with the slow kill speed but I would at least not be wasting time on a mechanic that doesn't work at all.

[Natfrog123]

9 hours ago, DishSoap said:

Okay so let's talk about Ash and why I feel people want to old Bladestorm back. Originally in the era of one trick pony Warframes most Warframes did use one ability, at most two. This was because everything unintentionally pushed you to use one ability if possible. Limited mod slots, limited mod cost, limited energy, and abilities being mods all pushed the player into using the single most cost efficient skill. At this time Ash wasn't in a particularly good spot either, most of the time you wanted to run Shuriken since Bladestorm was a bit unwieldy to use in normal missions, you also needed Smoke Bomb, and finally Bladestorm. However you also then needed to build for Ability Efficiency, Ability Duration, Ability Strength, and Ability Range. So as a Warframe, Ash was somewhat limited to begin with. It also didn't help that nuker Warframes like Saryn and Ember both did Ash's job better. So Ash fell into a niche survival build with Smoke Bomb and Bladestorm.

Now fast forward to today. Ash's Bladestorm is MORE unwieldy and SLOWER to use. This is extremely important to point out since high speed melee combat is currently the way to play. It also cuts out Ash's survivability and steals his invincibility frames away from him. So it's no wonder that people want the original Blade Storm back but, it won't come back because DE is EXTREMELY bullheaded about things. Though I'd rather see Bladestorm reworked into a system similar to Excalibur's Exalted Blade using throwing stars as a base. Giving Ash something unique like allowing him to cling to walls or the ceiling during this mode giving a little bit more of his survivability back to him.

I mained a BS build up until the nerf. I used it everywhere no issues. I also used his other abilities quite often. I'd use shuriken to start my assault teleport in to the mix far faster than everyone else and press my 4. Rinse and repeat while never touching smoke bomb. I could easily kill elites before the fight even started in most cases and never had a problem with elites not dieing. 

Now with the new Ash all i seem to do is spam 3 because nothing else is viable. Never do i play with other players while using Ash because he is to slow. Even with Sheev and covert lethality. Every time I play in a group I can't teleport to the enemies and end up getting stuck teleporting to my friendly and getting hurt waiting for the recovery animation to play. It's not fun. Shuriken is just a glorified glaive now... no thanks. I need to maintain a certain power strength... no thanks. If that's not how I want to play then I just simply don't play the class. Which is sad because he was my most used class and now he is an afterthought at best. 

[Nazrethim]

hace 9 horas, Natfrog123 dijo:

Why is that important when it's so strong it kills most targets in one mark anyways?

Exactly. I never use it with more than 1 mark. If 2 or 3 are used on a target is purely by accident since it's usually pointless to do so.

IF and only IF the 2nd and 3rd mark were free and applied instantly (based on the ability level) then it could be considered a bonus. As it stands it has no reason to exist.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

On 2018-07-18 at 5:28 AM, (PS4)JoelsonMS said:

In fact, he has become more useless than ever. If before the people used only his skill, today it will not even be used. The mechanics are annoying. But to do what, always what is good take even and pay attention to banal things. Patience itself. ^^

You could always learn how to use his current abilities? Last I checked he had 4, not 1. He's very good, he can go on massive survival runs easily. Just because you're too lazy to play the game and want to afk pressing 1 button while watching Netflix does not mean we all do. You saying he's useless just states that you don't know what you're doing.

[Hypernaut1]

People won't stop unless every frame is easy kill mode. Some players actually appreciate frames that require a modicum of involvement to be effective. 

There's many other frames if you think it's too much work to mark enemies for death.

 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

On 2018-07-21 at 6:34 PM, tripletriple said:

Using your own terrible quote to justify misinformation isn't helping you. You are wrong period. It's like me claiming the earth is flat and then posting this to support my claims. 

Nothing posted was an opinion. NOTHING.

Well it is, because it's your opinion dummy. Nowhere is it etched in steel as a statement from DE saying "we made Ash worse". Therefore it is subjective and hence an opinion. And it's one we don't share because we know how to do more than press a button in this game and watch Netflix, which is clearly what you do.

[Natfrog123]

14 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

People won't stop unless every frame is easy kill mode. Some players actually appreciate frames that require a modicum of involvement to be effective. 

There's many other frames if you think it's too much work to mark enemies for death.

 

The same can be said on the reverse side. The difference is one is broken on console and the other isn't. Ash used to be something and then it was taken away because of invulnerable enemies. I get removing the invuln enemies but changing the entire skill wasn't needed.

[tripletriple]

2 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

Well it is, because it's your opinion dummy. Nowhere is it etched in steel as a statement from DE saying "we made Ash worse". Therefore it is subjective and hence an opinion. And it's one we don't share because we know how to do more than press a button in this game and watch Netflix, which is clearly what you do.

LOL, I don't even.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

3 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

LOL, I don't even.

Well then why is it a problem? If you're as good as you say you are you should be more than capable of using ash in his current form with no problems.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Zilchy

[Natfrog123]

6 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

Well it is, because it's your opinion dummy. Nowhere is it etched in steel as a statement from DE saying "we made Ash worse". Therefore it is subjective and hence an opinion. And it's one we don't share because we know how to do more than press a button in this game and watch Netflix, which is clearly what you do.

1. Kills less enemies than before? Check.

2. Uses more energy than before? Check.

3. Less intuitive than before? Check.

4. More annoying to use? Check.

5. Less overall dps? Check.

Which part of this is not a known factual statement?

These are are factual statements not opinions.

If they are "opinions" as you claim prove your statement in the opposite. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, Natfrog123 said:

1. Kills less enemies than before? Check.

2. Uses more energy than before? Check.

3. Less intuitive than before? Check.

4. More annoying to use? Check.

5. Less overall dps? Check.

Which part of this is not a known factual statement?

These are are factual statements not opinions.

If they are "opinions" as you claim prove your statement in the opposite. 

I think there's been enough comments in the thread already that have addressed these points, if you can't be bothered reading that's not my problem. If you can't use Ash that's also not my problem. Show me conclusively where these "facts" are written down, until that point this is the opinion of the poster and not stated in some update from DE hence subjective and therefore an opinion.

[Natfrog123]

1 minute ago, Zilchy said:

I think there's been enough comments in the thread already that have addressed these points, if you can't be bothered reading that's not my problem. If you can't use Ash that's also not my problem. Show me conclusively where these "facts" are written down, until that point this is the opinion of the poster and not stated in some update from DE hence subjective and therefore an opinion.

It is a fact that he does kill less enemies. Needs LoS and others can attack his targets where before enemies were his and his alone no matter which hall they were in.

The maths for using more energy now have already been proven in this thread.

Less intuitive ( instinctive ). I think this speaks for it self. pressing one key is a lot less of a mental exercise.

More annoying ( irritation ) the sheer effort it takes to do now what the skill did before (impossible BTW) requires major muscle spasms and causes sever stress on your hardware (controller/mouse) and your hands.

Less overall DPS. Well i think this is a given. If you have used BS before nerf and use it now you already know that this is a fact.

Which part of this is confusing for you?

 

[Natfrog123]

17 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

Well then why is it a problem? If you're as good as you say you are you should be more than capable of using ash in his current form with no problems.

And if you were as good as you say you were then you would have no problems using it if it went back to the way it was.... Why are you even discussing it then? I mean if player skill and not function is your main gripe here? The skill is clunky and unusable UNLESS playing solo and even then on console it get's you killed unless you spec completely into stealth which is going down the cookie cutter road which is complete garbage period.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

So in your mind it's also a fact where he stated that Ash is useless? Because going by your logic tripletriple stated it which would make it a fact. As for the rest there was a long lengthy post earlier addressing most of these "facts". It's semantics, it depends what you're using him for. He is more effective and efficient  in high level missions than he ever used to be. And I'm talking high levels not a 20 min defense or the daily sortie.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Zilchy

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 minutes ago, Natfrog123 said:

And if you were as good as you say you were then you would have no problems using it if it went back to the way it was.... Why are you even discussing it then? I mean if player skill and not function is your main gripe here? The skill is clunky and unusable UNLESS playing solo and even then on console it get's you killed unless you spec completely into stealth which is going down the cookie cutter road which is complete garbage period.

Because that way was extremely boring and not involving. And the majority of players agree with this sentiment hence DE changing him.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Zilchy

[Natfrog123]

1 minute ago, Zilchy said:

So in your mind it's also a fact where he stated that Ash is useless? Because going by your logic tripletriple stated it which would make it a fact. As for the rest there was a long lengthy post earlier addressing most of these "facts". It's semantics, it depends what you're using him for. He is more effective and efficient  in high level missions than he wver used to be. And I'm talking high levels not a 20 min defense or the daily sortie.

Why are you implying I said that? That was not on the list you said was "opinion" at all. Stay on topic. Ash is capable. Ash can use 1 2 and 3 just fine...well 3 sometimes gets bugged but that's more of a bug than an intended effect. This entire thread was all about BS being unusable which was his only group competative skill. Without it he is "useless" as you call it because he is SOOOOOO outclasses in every way. So I ask you what does Ash have? Puny stealth that has to be recast ALL the damn time. Armor stripping which is easily done by other means and frankly not needed in normal gameplay but yet requires a mod slot. Teleport which honestly is the ONLY viable skill Ash has but at the same time requires you to pump so much health and armor you give up 2-3 mod slots just to not get destroyed at the end of the finisher animation. So I ask you again what is unique about Ash? He is in a horrible place since BS is complete time wasting garbage. Sure i can mark a few enemies but what can i do during the clone storm? Can i mark more? NOPE. Can I teleport to another enemy and just use my regular finisher on them? NOPE. Can I thow ninja stars? YES I CAN. I figured it out why didn't I see this before? I can use 1 spam. Praise Jesus I have seen the light! 

That last part as complete sarcasm if you didn't get it.

He is not fun. His press 4 and butcher everything in range meant so much diversity in a single skill that excepted so many different combinations of stats. I could go full range but lack mass numbers or I could go full power and just watch things go away. Either had different strengths and weaknesses and unless you modded correctly it was not a spammable skill and when it was spammed you didn't have those "massive damage numbers" you claim were there. Mesa, Inarus, Saryn, ect ect all have skills that put old Ash BS to shame but yet it was OP. How is that your logic?

I agree invulnerable enemies were a bad game mechanic... It needed to be fixed. That is not an excuse for the mess we have now.

[Natfrog123]

17 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

Because that way waa extremely boring and not involving. And the majority of playera agree with this sentiment hence DE changing him.

So where are all the Ash players hiding? I NEVER see Ash. I saw it for maybe 3 days after the mass giveaway and hasn't been seen since. Where are they? Answer that question. If the mass majority of the players agree with you then why are they not playing on Ash?

[Natfrog123]

33 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

So in your mind it's also a fact where he stated that Ash is useless? Because going by your logic tripletriple stated it which would make it a fact. As for the rest there was a long lengthy post earlier addressing most of these "facts". It's semantics, it depends what you're using him for. He is more effective and efficient  in high level missions than he ever used to be. And I'm talking high levels not a 20 min defense or the daily sortie.

Useless content? DE has made it very clear that that content is in no way supported for balance. If you choose to go there you are doing it solely for "bragging" rights. Who cares about high level enemies? But since you brought it up... Octavia... end of story. As far as more "effective and efficent"... WHAT? Are you drinking tonight? I thought you just said something about opinions and here you go saying an opinion. Are opinions allowed in this or not?

[Rakosta_Kai]

9 minutes ago, Natfrog123 said:

So where are all the Ash players hiding? I NEVER see Ash. I saw it for maybe 3 days after the mass giveaway and hasn't been seen since. Where are they? Answer that question. If the mass majority of the players agree with you then why are they not playing on Ash?

Most likely, the same place all the best players are "hiding" ...Solo.

You seem to be under the impression that because you don't see that frame in groups, people aren't playing it.

By your logic, Loki, Mag, and Hydroid would be some of the least played frames in the game.

Ash is a truly complete frame now...Players familiar with him don't need groups for anything other than spawn count now.

 

 

[Natfrog123]

Just now, Padre_Akais said:

Most likely, the same place all the best players are "hiding" ...Solo.

You seem to be under the impression that because you don't see that frame in groups, people aren't playing it.

By your logic, Loki, Mag, and Hydroid would be some of the least played frames in the game.

Ash is a truly complete frame now...Players familiar with him don't need groups for anything other than spawn count now.

 

 

Yet I see the above mentioned frames all the time? I do not understand your logic.