Air Combos With Melee 3.0

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

With the introduction of melee 3.0 and the new system that allows full combos to be completed while in the air, it's become evident that air fighting can be a thing now.

With that said, it think DE has a great opportunity to enhance Warframe gameplay if they turn a charged light attack into a launch move, sending an enemy upwards and having the Warframe follow it so the combo can be continued.

This would further increase the immersive experience when it comes to melee combat as all participants can feel the thrill of taking the opponents to the air as many other games do well.

Thanks.

[Rinteru]

They probably wont do it only because they want melee to be simple 1 button mash without much combos and buttons managment ( pretty sad bout it myself, what can you do ? ).  I wish they could do 2 buttons for melee with a lot of combos per stance that do stuff. They dont have to be long just, short and useful, like in fighter games for example. The problem i believe which is holding it back is 1 its not simplistic enough for some reason. Secondly I noticed that especialy directional combos for some stances (like try to do combo like e e => e e ), which are hard to do because 1 hand manages both movement and atttack and also pause and hold combos are pretty hard to manage because of the speed of the weapon. First thing could be solved pretty easily imo just change block to e then att 1 would left click and att 2 right click. Anyways thats bit of rumbling bout something thats probably not gonna happen.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that most of the community response about these changes were pretty good and because of that its probably gonna stay like this.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Rinteru

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

On 2018-08-06 at 1:50 PM, Rinteru said:

They probably wont do it only because they want melee to be simple 1 button mash without much combos and buttons managment ( pretty sad bout it myself, what can you do ? ).  I wish they could do 2 buttons for melee with a lot of combos per stance that do stuff. They dont have to be long just, short and useful, like in fighter games for example. The problem i believe which is holding it back is 1 its not simplistic enough for some reason. Secondly I noticed that especialy directional combos for some stances (like try to do combo like e e => e e ), which are hard to do because 1 hand manages both movement and atttack and also pause and hold combos are pretty hard to manage because of the speed of the weapon. First thing could be solved pretty easily imo just change block to e then att 1 would left click and att 2 right click. Anyways thats bit of rumbling bout something thats probably not gonna happen.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that most of the community response about these changes were pretty good and because of that its probably gonna stay like this.

I just think it's a great opportunity to Grant like some of a different style combat which is what it looks like so far.

Edited August 9, 2018 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

[Rinteru]

Man believe me its not DMC combat.  Its kind of similar but waaaay not there, because its way too simple and DE plan to keep it this way. Thats the biggest problem i believe. I wish it wouldnt be like this but thats one of DEs goal with this rework, cuz they dont want "button gymnastics". Basicaly you will 2 maybe 3 combos standing+button mash, moving forward+button mash, block+dash+button mash(dunno if there is difrent combo or not ) , 1 air combo which consists of 3 attacks at least thats how it was on devstream, charged attacks and thats it. Thats the whole melee system.

Believe me I wish too that melee combat would be explored and i totaly approve your ideas.  However DE said on last devstream that they are somwhat finished with designing melee combat and that they are going to focus more on numbers.

[Toran]

Let's stay real. The dev demo really looked nice etc but that was not Warframe. Warframe is and always was a frenzy, with or without Maiming Strike.

Melee 3.0 must be able to keep up that pace, it must be a valid option to badass rifles and Warframe skills. Else players will ignore melee once its novelty wears off and its back to Tonkor and Co.

The new combo systems left a very sound impression on me, a more difficult system would be just a total waste of time like the current combo system (shame about the cool animations, really - but those could be recycled for the new system!). Now, the overwhelming majority of players ignores stance combos - why bother when you achieve the same by doing three quick strikes?

The new system is simple, universal to all weapons and mostly controlled by your movement. It allows for a smoother and more intuitive flow of attacks than the actual system. In the current system most combos require you to stand still or do awkward moves that don't go along with your enemies. By the time you trigger that awesome looking combo, most of its strikes end up hitting thin air...

Melee 3.0 could be a real game changer if they get it right and let it hit hard enough and maintain a way to make it scaleable.

And why limit the combos to melee only? Add up Operator attacks (like blast and dash) and gun fight to it (like a head- or legshot)!

vor 13 Stunden schrieb (PS4)RenovaKunumaru:

With the introduction of melee 3.0 and the new system that allows full combos to be completed while in the air, it's become evident that air fighting can be a thing now.

With that said, it think DE has a great opportunity to enhance Warframe gameplay if they turn a charged light attack into a launch move, sending an enemy upwards and having the Warframe follow it so the combo can be continued.

This would further increase the immersive experience when it comes to melee combat as all participants can feel the thrill of taking the opponents to the air as many other games do well.

Thanks.

How about a charged attack from a crouch? Would be intuitive enough.

[ScribbleClash]

1 hour ago, Toran said:

The new system is simple, universal to all weapons and mostly controlled by your movement. It allows for a smoother and more intuitive flow of attacks than the actual system. In the current system most combos require you to stand still or do awkward moves that don't go along with your enemies. By the time you trigger that awesome looking combo, most of its strikes end up hitting thin air...

Combos forcing you to move in a different way is a direct result of chosing not to add one or two more buttons/keys to melee combos. Everything is just done with the same key and acts more akin of a rythm game than anything else - with the slight problem that the rest of the game doesn't follow the rythm.

 

I'm quite upset with them being proud of their "keep melee simple" approach. What was demonstrated was just plain boring to me. I am not saying that I want insanely complex combos (Executing combos could be done the same way for all I care). What I want is full control over melee.

<on-topic>
"Aerial" combat as in knocking the enemies up then slicing them up or smacking them around? That'd be a dream to do in Warframe. But again, this requires to be done willingly by the player, so that it generally is fun. Nothing is more frustrating than accidentally knocking enemies about, when your goal was a different.
If we got simply combos like:

X (↻ X to increase range) ∆ | launch everything in range into air
X (↻ X) ∆ in air | keep enemies airborne
X (↻ X) □ while being airborne | knock enemies to the floor
...

there could be great control over your actions and it still could be considered simple to do.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

3 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

If we got simply combos like:

 X (↻ X to increase range) ∆ | launch everything in range into air
X (↻ X) ∆ in air | keep enemies airborne
 X (↻ X) □ while being airborne | knock enemies to the floor
...

there could be great control over your actions and it still could be considered simple to do.

I was hoping for something simple to add to the simple system introduced. I m not hoping DMC, that was a terrible example to introduce because it leads comparisons too heavily but something like holding light launches enemies 3m in front of you just sounds like fun. 

I think a good point of the necessity of the launch attack is that having DE introduce air Combos is pointless without anyone to fight in the air.

Edited August 7, 2018 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

[ScribbleClash]

What I suggested is still extremly far from fighter games. I hoped my reasoning for separating launches from regular attacks would be clear: Control.

Having only one button to do everything, takes away a lot of control over how you choose to execute attacks. In short: It makes the system clumsy.
In my honest opinion, the issue with the current system isn't the variety with combos, but that they're all depending on one button. This just makes executing combos harder.

[Xaxma]

I don't frankly see a point to it. Air attacks seems to be as much a dead feature as those "wall attacks."

They added it for the tech demo and nothing else really. It's not going to be practical. What are you going to attack with it? Grineer Helions? That's it. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

Warframe is not Devil May Cry.

Devil May Cry is all about managing knockbacks and hit-stuns to successfully juggle an enemy to death while keeping its buddies off of your back.

Unlike Warframe, most enemies can't simply shoot you, and the ones that can have very limited ranged capabilities (e.g., an attack with a long wind-up, small number of projectiles, and long recovery) or are considered bosses.

In Warframe, you don't want an enemy to be absorbing a bunch of hits. If you can launch something and hit it more than once or twice in the air, you're starting to get out of your depth.

The biggest flaw with Melee 2.0 was that they went too much Devil May Cry (narrow combos focused on multihitting an enemy that usually dies after hit 2) instead of building combos good for dealing with crowds.

Let's not push for the exact same mistake with Melee 3.0 this time around, yeah?

Personally, I think that the aerial attacks will be essential to making the new "extremely vertical" rooms bearable for melee users. Can you imagine trying to constantly fight mid-parkour using the current air options? It'd be an exercise in frustration. The aerial combos really shouldn't be treated any differently than normal combos, and should simply be used when needed.

That said, those new rooms seem like a bad idea without some sort of AI rework to help enemies handle the verticality;

YAY, let's fight a bunch of crewmen jam-packed onto a narrow catwalk... Or otherwise near-instantly jumping 20m back and forth between levels repeatedly as the AI decides where it wants to go. /s

The AI's jankiest moments come from trying to navigate vertical elements...

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

22 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Warframe is not Devil May Cry

I knew I shouldn't have wrote this because there would be a narrow minded focus on this alone.

Edited out.

With that aside, there's no point to air Combos when there are no enemies in the air. Air Combos would be a stylish addition to the game and the benefits would be that it removes players from heavy melee units attacking on the ground. Enemies can still shoot you but the game has an evasive stat that works when moving and in the air limiting damage potential from enemies.

22 hours ago, Xaxma said:

I don't frankly see a point to it. Air attacks seems to be as much a dead feature as those "wall attacks."

They added it for the tech demo and nothing else really. It's not going to be practical. What are you going to attack with it? Grineer Helions? That's it. 

Read above, because I agree with you.

On 2018-08-08 at 7:19 AM, ScribbleClash said:

What I suggested is still extremly far from fighter games. I hoped my reasoning for separating launches from regular attacks would be clear: Control.

Having only one button to do everything, takes away a lot of control over how you choose to execute attacks. In short: It makes the system clumsy.
In my honest opinion, the issue with the current system isn't the variety with combos, but that they're all depending on one button. This just makes executing combos harder.

Heavy attacks still have charge function even with melee 3.0 which is what we will use for for weapons like Zenistar. That's one button. 

Then guard blocks, increases combo counter, and is used to close in the gap now. That's another button.

Light attacks are just the same spam moves it's always been, only different is that you can mix the heavy button in seamlessly and you can gap close by holding bloack button and light attack. 3rd button.

With those in mind I didn't think that holding light would be so far off from putting everything into a single button press. It doesn't have a function like that. With giving it a lunch I think it could just enhance it's current functionality.

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (PS4)RenovaKunumaru:

snip

Totally agree. Just from looking at the stream it felt utterly useless and clunky - just look at Rebb trying to hit that heavy gunners trapped in the air. W/o proper lock on mechanics you'll do "fly-bys" at most, which is not very different from now  as it's hard to land multiple hits while passing by.

[DiabolusUrsus]

4 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I knew I shouldn't have wrote this because there would be a narrow minded focus on this alone.

Edited out.

Sigh. Please don't act like I ignored the core of your suggestion and only focused on the DMC name when I went into detail about it. Editing out the DMC name does nothing to change the actual content of your suggestion, which is what I take issue with.

Quote

With that aside, there's no point to air Combos when there are no enemies in the air.

Ospreys and Hellions exist, and air attacks are already useful for pulling off melee headshots if you aren't using a stance that hands them out like candy. The multi-hit air combos with auto-attacks on bullet jumps will make them even easier to use.

Quote

Air Combos would be a stylish addition to the game and the benefits would be that it removes players from heavy melee units attacking on the ground.

Hah? What heavy melee units are you talking about? Most of the existing melee units get taken out simply due to the fact that you are attacking at all. They're not much of a threat without CC effects like knockdowns or hooks, and simply being airborne won't save you from those.

Quote

Enemies can still shoot you but the game has an evasive stat that works when moving and in the air limiting damage potential from enemies.

Evasion is extremely limited, and really only makes a noticeable difference at <L30 or during bullet jumps/rolls. Aerial combos are a lot closer to aim-gliding, and aim-gliding doesn't do jack for evasion when you actually need it to.

IMO, launchers don't fit Warframe's combat. Enemies really shouldn't be surviving long enough to get launched + comboed. If enemies are strong enough to survive, there are bettter options: actual area CC and/or finisher attacks, which actually protect you from damage dealt by nearby enemies.

Additionally, air attacks are nowhere near as pointless as you are making them out to be. If anything, removing the forced extra momentum and adding extra swings to expand the potential hitboxes will make them easier to use than ever before.

Warframe's melee 2.0 mistake was going for stance combos that were "awesome, but impractical." I don't want to see the same mistake with 3.0, especially if it mandates extra controls to accomplish.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

50 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

IMO

You're welcome to disagree, but I don't feel like the application of launches hinders gameplay or fits outside of it's meta. 

Feel free to pick apart what you like with my text but,

52 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Hah

I'm just not going there with someone who is looking for reasons to argue. You've stated why you feel like it wouldn't fit with the current style of the game and I'm asking for the games style to evolve.

I'm going to leave it at that.

[DiabolusUrsus]

59 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

You're welcome to disagree, but I don't feel like the application of launches hinders gameplay or fits outside of it's meta. 

I didn't say it would hinder gameplay, and the meta has nothing to do with my criticism. But your argument is that aerial attacks will be pointless without launchers when

a) aerial attacks are not pointless, and

b) launchers actually would be.

59 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Feel free to pick apart what you like with my text but,

First you complain that I'm focusing only on your DMC analogy, and now you complain when I discuss the minute details of your suggestion? Really now?

There's no pleasing some people.

59 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I'm just not going there with someone who is looking for reasons to argue.

To say that I'm "looking" for reasons to argue is to imply that your suggestion is flawless at face value. I'm hardly grasping for straws here.

59 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

You've stated why you feel like it wouldn't fit with the current style of the game and I'm asking for the games style to evolve.

I'm going to leave it at that.

If you don't want to hear any dissenting opinions, that's fine. You can ignore them, but don't suggest that they are somehow missing the point of your suggestion if you can't be bothered to discuss/clarify it.

And don't try to hide behind buzzwords; I'm just as eager for the game to evolve as the next player. My point of contention is that I don't think this would be evolution in the right direction.

Your suggestion would require a substantial extension of time-to-kill, which would invariably skew the game balance in favor of guns. While I'll readily agree that TTK is overall too low, melee needs fast TTK relative to guns to be worth the extra risk and travel time between groups. Balancing for multi-stage combos like launcher + air combo would either

a) make melee way too slow to be a real alternative to gunplay, or

b) gun TTK would be way too high and enemies would be frustratingly spongey.

Neither of those situations strike me as particularly appealing.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

4 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Snip

It would be better for you to redirect your discussion at the topic rather than directions responses at me because I'm not interested in arguing with you. I'm not reading them, but as I scrolled I noticed you segmented my responses yet again.

This is a good number for the topic though so if you must carry on then so be it.

[DiabolusUrsus]

My first response was directed at the topic. You started this discussion, not me, so don't act like I'm somehow wasting your time by responding.

I'm sorry you can't be bothered to spend 30 seconds reading a response.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯