Stamina Changes Awful, Suggestion For Improvement

[MJ12]

DE_Steve said in one of the livestreams he wanted "Stamina" to be important, because as of then, it had no real use.

 

Well, now it's still not important, it's just annoying. Why is it still not important?

 

Let's talk about the things Stamina lets you do:

 

1. Sprint (only useful for getting to places quickly)

 

2. Wallrun (doesn't take much Stamina for required wallruns)

 

3. Block (useless. FYI: Giving people mods that make a useless thing slightly less useless does not count as 'fixing' it)

 

4. Melee attack (why should this take Stamina at all?)

 

None of these are critical. Only one of these is important, and most of these are generally not very useful. So instead of making them more useful, apparently the correct way to make Stamina important is to make it annoying. Good mechanics, like I have said, are never annoying mechanics. Right now, Stamina is an annoying mechanic. That makes it a bad mechanic. Yes, yes, it slows down rushers. You know what else would slow down rushers? Increased rewards for kills, the rewards for mission completion being less frontloaded, and, oh yeah, more teamwork doors. That'd slow down 'rushing' while not reducing the game pace.

 

What I suggest is major in terms of gameplay alteration but hear me out, because I think it'd be infinitely better than what we have now.

 

I. Remove sprinting.

 

Instead, Tenno should all move at their current 'sprinting' speed all the time. This would make everyone faster, remove the issue of 'exploits' such as slide-canceling sprint for infinite sprint, and oh yeah, would make the game more like the fast-paced ninja game everyone came here for. Again, a question people should ask themselves is "why am I playing this instead of the billions of FPSes and TPSes out there?" My answer, and most people's answer, is "because I can play an awesome cyborg space ninja who flips out and kills people." Changes like this, reducing the mobility of your character, directly impact this. They make it more and more of a generic Shoot Mans FPS where you sprint to a box, shoot some guys, then sprint to another box, and repeat. If I wanted to play a generic Shoot Mans FPS, there are millions of choices. There are very few fast-paced arcadey shooters out there.

 

If Warframes don't 'sprint', and instead just run really fast all the time, the main problems with the current Stamina system are gone. "But what should the Sprint button do?" you might ask. Well, that's fairly simple. Call it "Ninja Run".

 

While Ninja Running, a Warframe will:

 

1. Automatically vault or otherwise negotiate obstacles in its path

 

2. Block incoming attacks automatically (so your 'block' button can now become your 'Sprint' button: If stationary, all you do is block incoming attacks). This also means you can remove the dedicated 'block' button, because now your block and your sprint are a similar function.

 

3. Maybe move slightly faster (say, 25% faster) than normal speed. This is optional.

 

4. Cancel into slides (via crouching), wallruns (via holding jump + Ninja Run), and other acrobatics.

 

II. Buff Blocking

 

Blocking right now is bad. The mods don't make it better. Some of the functions of the mods should be incorporated innately into blocking, and then the mods themselves altered to actually be ancillary functions that make it more useful, rather than requirements for it to be useful at all.

 

Block should provide total protection from ranged damage, and partial protection from melee damage, at the cost of Stamina (trading Stamina for shields). Furthermore, initiating a block should provide a handful of invulnerability frames. If you take a melee attack while initiating a block, that's a 'parry', dealing some counterattack damage and knocking the enemy back.

 

The Parry mod can be renamed and changed into "Explosive Parry", which adds area damage equal to a percentage of the weapon's base damage to a successful parry counterattack. The Reflection mod can be renamed and changed into "Riposte", which gives you bonus melee damage and attack speed after a successful parry. Alternately, Reflection can keep its name but change its effect to redirect incoming ranged attacks back to the enemy while blocking, with mod levels increasing the power of redirected shots.

 

Now blocking has a significant element of skill (parrying incoming attacks). It becomes incredibly useful, it becomes a method of reliable damage avoidance, and it becomes another element in the melee combat system, which adds melee combat depth. Everything you wanted is now fixed.

 

It may make the game slightly easier, but I don't know. Nobody uses block anyways right now, so you'd need people to start using the newly-buffed blocking ability to actually see if the game becomes too easy, and what recourse you have for that.

 

III. Dodging Should Use Stamina, Be Way Better

 

As I said in a previous thread, dodging in this game sucks. It should not suck. Why does it suck?

 

1. It's slow

 

2. It has no invulnerability frames

 

Change both of those. How do ninjas dodge in anime or manga? How do ninjas dodge in pop culture? They move so fast they seem to disappear. Dodging in Warframe should be like that. You should be blurring around the battlefield, unhittable as long as you keep dodging incoming enemy attacks. A Warframe dodging should evade in the desired direction by moving incredibly fast, seemingly disappearing from the battlefield or leaving a faint trail of afterimages because they're that awesome. While doing this they should be invulnerable from harm for most of the animation. You know how Vor dodges attacks by moving so fast he has an afterimage trail and seems to teleport? This is what I'm thinking Warframes should be able to do. Maybe not the same animation, and definitely without the same range, but the same principle.

 

"But this is totally unbalanced if it doesn't cost anything." you'll say. Yes, which is why it should also use Stamina. Dodging should cost a big chunk of Stamina. Say, 25% of base Stamina, +/-5% or so to taste. I figure being able to chain a fast and powerful dodge 4 times in a row without recovering is a pretty huge benefit. If you're out of Stamina, your dodge becomes the wimpy roll again, except sped up some (and maybe with a tiny bit of damage reduction [20-40%] while dodging).

 

As a side effect, this makes 'trade Shields for Stamina' really useful. A skilled player will benefit far more from having more Stamina than Shields, as they can use dodging to avoid incoming damage, only being vulnerable to damage when they're actually attacking. Now skilled players have a choice. Do they take a mod that allows them to dodge more, keeping in mind dodge is basically infinitely scalable (since, you know, invincibility frames) or do they take a mod that allows them to make more mistakes?

 

Suddenly, Stamina modifications become incredibly useful. Suddenly, people who prefer to play the game as something other than a cover shooter have a reliable method of avoiding damage in the open. Suddenly, you can balance the game with the idea that people can, in fact, avoid incoming damage no matter where they are, which means you might be able to make a game where the cover cheesers don't think it's too easy and the guys who like things other than playing Gears of War think it's too annoyingly frustrating because it forces you to use cover.

 

IV: Mods should never be used to bandaid problems

 

This is unrelated to the specific issue but is a general issue I keep seeing your team do. Instead of fixing a problem for everyone, you make a mod that sort of deals with it but not really. Handspring is an incredibly eregrious example, as are all the blocking mods. Why not fix the core issue? Sure, it seems like if you do that, people might spend a little less time grinding for new mods, but that's a false dilemma. Instead, if your new mods are actual mods instead of fixes for an issue, people will have a much better impression of the game and play it more often.

 

V: Conclusion

 

Notice that none of these changes alter stamina regen. I don't think a stamina regen delay is a bad idea inherently, if the abilities linked to Stamina are useful enough and powerful enough that the stamina regen delay is necessary for balance and good sense. They make stamina useful, they make stamina mods useful, and they make a ton of abilities that are currently not useful at all much more useful.

Edited September 14, 2013 by MJ12

[Hayden11121]

"It makes perfect sense! WE CAN'T USE THAT!" -DE Logic.

 

+1 for you.

[GSGregory]

Yes. You put down many of the things I was already thinking and some I wasn't and probably better too. +1.

[Atsumori]

Yep, kinda disappointed after all... Even i got better ideas than the ones DE implemented.

+1

[Neyd]

I agree with most of what you said. Stamina did not became more important but just a pain in the behind.

 

Kudos for writing all that (including your suggestions up)

[theammostore]

I. like sprinting as it is.

 

II. I agree to buffing it, not with everything you said though

 

III.yes, but Vor teleports, he doesn't move fast. That's teleporting

 

IV. Meh

[MJ12]

I. like sprinting as it is.

 

II. I agree to buffing it, not with everything you said though

 

III.yes, but Vor teleports, he doesn't move fast. That's teleporting

 

IV. Meh

 

Sprinting 'as it is' is just a Call of Duty/Gears of War artifact. You didn't have a 'sprint' button in Unreal Tournament. Instead, you always moved quickly. As it is, this is the absolute worst fit with a fast-paced game. Moving fast shouldn't be limited period, given how critical moving fast is to a shooter where the point is to move fast and hit hard.

 

Vor teleports, but that's irrelevant. All Tenno should be able to move fast enough that they look like they're teleporting. A blur of motion, a few afterimages, and you're in another spot.

 

Really most of your responses seem to be largely nitpicking the mechanics, not the main thrust of the argument (buff everything that uses stamina, make stamina no longer necessary to run fast, keep the u10 recharge system).

[Atsumori]

What i got from this update in first impressions:
-New sentinel and stuff (nothing wow!).
-Debuffs.
-Fixes.




-Such disappointed WOW (Doge.jpg)

[Pure]

Stamina was probably nerfed for pvp.  Sorry pve players.

[MJ12]

Stamina was probably nerfed for pvp.  Sorry pve players.

 

I doubt it, it doesn't make sense to nerf stamina for PvP, especially since melee is already weaker than guns.

 

In fact, PvP balance would probably imply unlimited stamina.

 

I don't like the idea of putting resources into PvP either but I don't think you can blame the guys who demanded PvP for this, it's just a fustercluck on all levels.

Edited September 14, 2013 by MJ12

[neKroMancer]

I don't think removing sprint key is really a good suggestion. It'll be a pain to use range attack all the time, especially with one-shot weapon like Sniper and Latron. I get that you are using pretty much the MGS:Rising example (Raiden awesomesauce sprint) but that will gear the game toward melee attack and the range attack is no longer integral part of the game.

 

While I simply dislike the stamina change, I think DE is trying to create a demand for stamina which is something we have been discussing for a long time since it's pretty much redundant due to fast regeneration rate. However, what they did wrong is the fact that they assigned too much stamina consumption rate for mobility action like sprinting and wallrunning while nothing much had been done to melee attack consumption rate (or it's pretty unnoticeable).

 

Basically, they have to reassign stamina consumption for sprint to lower level. This will allow player to move 'longer' and retain the 'ninja' feel. Increase the cost of stamina for melee (normal and charge) since we still can continuously slash everything indefinitely. 

 

Adding more mechanic for stamina is a great idea to increase the most lackluster side of Warframe : Build diversity.

- Parry is no brainer, it needs to get better.

- Add a "burst of speed" for closing in to melee range. Similar to Slash dash but limited to one target and deal no damage. Melee double tap for activation with varying cost depends on weapon. 

- Dodge idea is good, I agree. Only thing to beware is geometric stucking. The recent example was ME3's N7Slayer which caused lots of problem. 

[-Mira-]

i disagree on every frame needing to be able to "ninja dodge", since, tbh, not every frame really has the look or feel of an agile ninja. frost doing a dash like that would just look kinda silly, and overall i'm not really sure i agree a dodging animation like that would fit into the game's aesthetic much at all.

 

most everything else, however, sounds good overall, barring the specific details of how things might work and be balanced. a lot of those suggestions would probably require huge changes and overhauls from a technical standpoint and would be difficult and time-consuming to implement if DE even did catch wind of them at all, but if they do notice this thread the one thing i would most love for them to implement and that would also probably be the easiest is the removal of sprinting.

 

because seriously, there is one purpose to the sprint function right now and that is to wear out the finger that's holding down the sprint key 98% of the time

[-Mira-]

I don't think removing sprint key is really a good suggestion. It'll be a pain to use range attack all the time, especially with one-shot weapon like Sniper and Latron. 

 

assuming what you're saying here is "it'll be difficult to aim while always moving fast," that's what ADS is for :V

[MJ12]

I don't think removing sprint key is really a good suggestion. It'll be a pain to use range attack all the time, especially with one-shot weapon like Sniper and Latron. I get that you are using pretty much the MGS:Rising example (Raiden awesomesauce sprint) but that will gear the game toward melee attack and the range attack is no longer integral part of the game.

 

Melee in this game is already less powerful than ranged attacks outside of serrated blade multihit weapons vs Infested, I think being able to do awesomesauce sprinting is not going to make ranged attacks 'no longer integral' to the game.

[Justin_Case001]

Stamina nerf sucks.  It ruined the game.

[Bantamu]

DE should hire you as the Judicial Branch of the company. Overseeing all updates and additions, and changing them at will.

 

Seriously, +1 to every idea listed.

[MJ12]

DE should hire you as the Judicial Branch of the company. Overseeing all updates and additions, and changing them at will.

 

Seriously, +1 to every idea listed.

 

I don't think I'm nearly that good at game design. It's just that there's some amateur hour stuff going on.

 

I mean, this is basic tabletop game design: all your mechanics should reinforce the thematics of the game.

 

The corollary to that is you shouldn't ever have mechanics in your game that don't have a purpose. The stamina system right now doesn't do anything. Blocking isn't nearly good enough to be worth limiting, and neither is sprinting. If DE wanted to be cheap and still change stamina, they should have just burned the stamina system, reimbursed everyone fusion cores for their Marathon/Quick Rests, and said 'okay good enough'.

[AkhAnubis]

IV: Mods should never be used to bandaid problems

 

This is unrelated to the specific issue but is a general issue I keep seeing your team do. Instead of fixing a problem for everyone, you make a mod that sort of deals with it but not really. Handspring is an incredibly eregrious example, as are all the blocking mods. Why not fix the core issue? Sure, it seems like if you do that, people might spend a little less time grinding for new mods, but that's a false dilemma. Instead, if your new mods are actual mods instead of fixes for an issue, people will have a much better impression of the game and play it more often.

Besides the whole stamina thing, this is what seems most important to me and deserves a full discuss topic in his own. To have a somewhat nice gameplay experience you have to severily limit the skill and power of your warframe.

[samuraitoast]

It's kinda sad that I highly doubt any major gameplay-altering changes like the ones you've mentioned will ever make it into Warframe, because they really need to.  Like people have been saying, spending your time improving the core gameplay instead of artificially extending it with more grinding for a few new things would be much better for the long run.  And I believe F2P games are aiming for the long run, right?

 

I agree on all points.  Meaningful and smoother dodging would be a great start.  Since they purposely have no cover mechanic, I feel there is a dire need for some means of damage mitigation that takes skill.  We should have some tools that make us feel more like ninja's instead of just having to level up and put on some fatter shield mods etc to survive. 

 

For blocking, I believe it should be the opposite of what you proposed though.  Maybe half or slightly more reduction to incoming ranged damage, and full damage reduction for incoming melee(depending on type of attack; probably not full for Kril for instance).

 

Ninja-run idea is cool, and I think something that could keep 'walking' in the game would be adding acceleration time to the regular run.  Basically if you aren't shift, you would be able to run at current sprint speeds but it would take a second or 2 to hit top speed.  This way you can still do small adjustments for sniping etc.  Then holding shift for ninja-run would be like sliding currently, give you a small burst of speed to give you a full sprint right out of the gates.

 

Gonna stop ranting now before I go waay off-topic, have to start another thread for that...

[neKroMancer]

Melee in this game is already less powerful than ranged attacks outside of serrated blade multihit weapons vs Infested, I think being able to do awesomesauce sprinting is not going to make ranged attacks 'no longer integral' to the game.

 

I think problem with melee being less powerful than range is based in 3 phases of melee attack

 

1. You need to get close and expose yourself to damage.

2. Damage from melee is lackluster by itself. 

3. While dealing melee damage (serious one, not slide attack), you're stationary.

 

While doing awesome sprint will negate the first part (a bit of it since you are likely to be stationary while preforming lobotomy), it doesn't negate the second and third problem. DE has to create a mechanic that give player shorter duration of engaging in melee attack.

 

That would be hard without buffing melee weapon damage to the roof or giving damage mitigation during melee attack that could be used as an abuse. Bah, off topic. I agree that giving more role stamina deserve is a better way to deal with the situation.

[MJ12]

I think problem with melee being less powerful than range is based in 3 phases of melee attack

 

1. You need to get close and expose yourself to damage.

2. Damage from melee is lackluster by itself. 

3. While dealing melee damage (serious one, not slide attack), you're stationary.

 

While doing awesome sprint will negate the first part (a bit of it since you are likely to be stationary while preforming lobotomy), it doesn't negate the second and third problem. DE has to create a mechanic that give player shorter duration of engaging in melee attack.

 

That would be hard without buffing melee weapon damage to the roof or giving damage mitigation during melee attack that could be used as an abuse. Bah, off topic. I agree that giving more role stamina deserve is a better way to deal with the situation.

 

Fixing #1 is a good start to the issues involved, though. What's more important is that having your default speed be more or less your previous sprinting speed makes the game more fast-paced and action-packed, and allows stamina to actually be a resource that has to be metered out, because running out of it isn't "oh woe is me, the game is going to be boring and slow until I get more stamina."

[fatpig84]

Meh I agree here.

[Kaidinah]

This post needs to be bumped. The OP makes great points. I especially like the permanent sprint idea.

[Acos]

I wouldn't remove sprinting as it gives me tighter control over my movement; I'd just get rid of stamina entirely. RUSH can still be a mod if you want to go faster but mobility should not be something that's annoying to do. I mean, hell, I'm just some guy on the internet and I run more efficiently than my space ninja with power armor. 

Otherwise I agree with you pretty much verbatim. 

[theammostore]

Really most of your responses seem to be largely nitpicking the mechanics, not the main thrust of the argument (buff everything that uses stamina, make stamina no longer necessary to run fast, keep the u10 recharge system).

Pretty much was yeah, just nitpicking some of the finer details. But the greatest wall starts with but a crumble, in this case the actual points made in forums being the walls and misinformation or generalization being the crumbling. I support your ideas, really, i think it'd be fun, I just happen to like it how it is.