Damage 2.0 I Get It Now......underwhelming Fully Explained

[ClaymoreNo47]

I get it now and its far from what was promised. The damage 2.0 patch just went live 8 hours ago and build options is what was promised but now the gun's base stats already tell you what it "SHOULD" be built into without any input from you. Rainbow build didn't go away; its just that now the order of the rainbow matters. I'm going to explain to you the in's and outs of damage 2.0 so prepare your brain you'll certainly need her. 

 

A weapon will naturally gravitate towards one of three base stats which if the other 2 are really low. The mods that boast them are useless because they operate on percentages. 60% more slash damage on a gun with 2 slash damage will gain you a total of 1 slash damage. So it works like crit build or non crit build, the guns base stats already determine how it should be built regardless of what you want. You actually have no choice. Guns that gravitate towards one stat rather than 2 or even out on all three are superior due to the fact that the mod that boasts that specific element will gain full effect. For example a weapon that does 18-1-1 is far superior to a gun that does 9-9-1 because 60% of 18 gives the weapon a boast in about 12 while 60% of 9 is merely 5.

 

 

Additionally certain guns have godly status proc % and some don't. This would be ok if DE was known for their absolute amazing scrutinizing numerical balance of game spells, guns, items which they are not. These arbitrary inconsistencies i noticed on some weapons are ridiculous and make them stand out amongs their peers. Some guns have a 1% proc rate while some have 15%. The Proc rate mods work on percentage meaning 30% - 50% status proc rate boast on 1 % is still like 1 %.

 

 

What seems to be the least conceptually changed area is elemental mods. They are allowed to combine now into different elements but their use's largely remain the same. Two 90% mods will combine into one 180% new element and be applied as damage which dependent on enemy type will be more of less effective but not crippling so that you have to worry to much. The defining feature of the elements, their status affects such as freezing someone or lighting them on fire is highly depending on the base status % of the weapon. It is noted that the damage elementals do is base on the combination of Slash, puncture, and impact combined and viewed as the base 100%.

 

The elemental charge is as follows which is courtesy of jrkong at this link:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/134320-damage-20-damage-stats-for-those-who-havent-seen-the-design-council-chart/#entry1612001

 

 

Damage bonuses for:
-Impact does +50% vs Robotic and Shield and -50% vs Infested.
-Puncture does +50% vs Armor and Robotic and -50% vs Infested.
-Slash does +50% vs Flesh and Infested and -50% vs Robotic.
-Heat does +75% vs Flesh and +50% vs Infested.
-Cold does -50% vs Armor and +50% vs Shield.
-Electricity does -25% vs Infested and +50% vs Robotic.
-Toxic does 50% vs Flesh and -50% vs Robotic.
-Blast does +25% vs Armor and Flesh.
-Radiation does +10% vs Flesh and +50% vs Robotic.
-Gas does +25% vs Armor and Flesh and -50% vs Robotic.
-Magnetic does +75% vs Shield and +50% vs Robotic.
-Viral does +100% vs Flesh and -50% vs Robotic.
-Corrosive does +75% vs Armor and +50% vs Robotic. 

 

 

Remember the whole promise of 2.0 is options but let us analyze what we actually get. First of all what is immediately noticeable is that gas give minimal bonus' for some serious potential negatives. So avoid gas its a terrible element with a 25% boast for armor/flesh while a potential 50% negative towards robotics. Cold and toxic both have trading features which include a 50% gain and a 50% reduction on certain enemy types. While this is nice and all, it largely overshadowed by the other elements for these specific reasons. Toxic's only strength is that it does 50% more to flesh but at the same time Heat does 75% more damage to flesh which is better and it has no negatives so immediately in all situations toxic is worst than heat. 

Cold does 50% more to shield while Magnetic does 75% to shields and magnetic has no weaknesses. So far we've crossed out gas, cold, toxic and what we have left that are, corrosive, magnetic, viral, radiation, blast, electricity, and heat.

 

However electricity's only strength is 50% more to robotic but this strength is shared by many other elements that have no weakness's so electricity is not good either. The interesting thing about armor and flesh is that armor is harder to deal with because generally the bullet sponges have more armor. What is the strategical need to min-max your weapons to kill a moa? High lvl moa's have terrible hp and die relatively fast while things like ancients and heavy grineer take whole clips to down so an element like radiation and blast aren't very effective for most of your needs.

 

This leaves us with Corrosive, Viral, Magnetic, and heat. Viral does 100% more to flesh but has a potential 50% reduction to robotics while heat does 75% to flesh which is merely 175/200 = 13% less and has no weakness'. So finally we have only 3 remaining elements that are the absolute best.

 

-Corrosive does +75% vs Armor and +50% vs Robotic. 

-Magnetic does +75% vs Shield and +50% vs Robotic.

-Heat does +75% vs Flesh and +50% vs Infested.

 

DE doesn't realize that most enemies we expect to down within 1-7 seconds depending on how tough it is not including boss's so efffects such as DOT, potential stuns, and bleeding and all that jazz are largely useless compounded by abysmal status proc percentages. Damage kills things not inconsistent and unreliable status effects. Different elements have very unique and equation altering effects taht add significantly more damage but the limiting factor is the proc % that most guns have so this feature will have to analyzed on a per gun basis. Some weapons have 1 % proc status chance so really the proc effects should be ignored for these guns. And in my honest opinion proc effects are highly personable and should be evaluated on a personal preference basis because they all do very different things. Some give a little more DOT some stun and some reduce enemy damage. I'm only concerned with killing things fast to farm faster and thus my analysis will be bias'ed in that perspective. That ancient will be dead by the time you light it on fire or make it bleed. So much for variety.

 

 

In conclusion damage 2.0 did 5 things:

 

1) made this game highly confusing for non min-max oriented players

2) Made armor scaling less ridiculous for high lvl enemies (a simple fix mind you easily accomplish-able without damage 2.0)

3) Eliminate any build options at all what soever which is the opposite of what is promised. The base statistics of a weapon indicating its crit chance, slash, puncture, impact, status affect will ultimately force you to build any weapon a certain way gearing it towards a certain enemy. 

4) Provide you with the option of 10 different elements and combinations while in depth analysis shows that only three are the best for every possible situation.

5) Highlight and remind us that the entire premise of diversity is actually mod balance. We only have 8 slots and every single mod is competing with one another. Some of them give abysmal statistics while some give phenomenal ones. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize which ones are more beneficial. 

 

 

DE seems to be under the impression that the right way to build a weapon isn't the strongest way but your way and that is objectively false. The correct way to build a weapon is to make it the strongest it can possibly be and this system truly only allows for one build per gun rather than the promised several. 

 

 

EDIT: in response to claims that we gain more diversity and to demonstrate to how mod build variety is slowly being destroyed.

 

 

If your gun has high crit chance, you have no choice but to make it a crit gun. You can argue that a proud individual can opt not to but this isn't what you find. Nobody is going to go a non crit soma because the base damages are so low. The same is true for Status procs. If a future gun is released with 30% status proc, And there are status proc mods. The player is forced to make this a status proc gun to get the most fun out of it. A rifle such as a Flux rifle, because of its damage type, will see very little use beyond infested. The gun itself isn't intuitively an infested slaughtering machine but its stats force it to be. Gone are the days of just enjoying using your favorite rifle for whatevs. Elements are the same. Because there are only 4 basic elements that must be combined to make 10. Its only possible to ever put at the maximum 2 compound elements on a gun for a total of 4 basic elements combined + at most 2 more depending on weapon type. Rifles gain an extra fire mode called wildfire and pistol gain an extra mod called ice-storm that doubles on on existing element mods. If you look at the combinations carefully its not possible to super stack elements to fight one faction because the base elements wont allow for all those combinations. We fall back on the perfect trio that have no weakness' have don't overlap in their basic components.

 

Perhaps we'll never see the days of intuitive individuality. Hey gun is pretty cool, i want it to attack faster. I want it to reload faster. Hey this gun over here i don't really care about reloading faster i might just want to give it more damage. This game is a shooter game. Core components such as reloading, magazine size, recoil, accuracy, attack speed, damage should have been at the forefront of customization. But since weapons only have 8 valuable slots, and with the introduction of this crazy element system where your only decision tree is to counter act 50% reduction to a particular faction, much akin to not taking a non-armor pen weapon in Damage 1.0, the time spent customizing a build isn't actually spent on getting the gun to be behave the way you want it to rather to just make sure you played your Pokemon correctly.

 

Build diversity was never about fancy complex damage systems. It's a rather simple phenomenon. Our weapons only have 8 slots while there are at least two dozen mods that can go on them. The mods have to somewhat be reasonable in their perceived value to be considered and i don't think DE wants to take this approach. What is the real benefit of equipping a 30% reload speed when other mods give so much more? Would it then not be reasonable to make the reload boast a reasonably higher value to compete for our precious slots? This applies to at least 70% of the mods that give extremely tiny values. They might as well not exist. Rainbow build didn't go away. You just now have to be vigilant of its order and the majority of non crit weapons will be running the obligatory Serration, Multishot, Heavy caliber, attack speed, element, element,element,element. That's how it worked in Damage 1.0 and that's how it'll continue to operate in 2.0 except now its actually annoying.

 

Edited November 25, 2013 by ClaymoreNo47

[WarOverlord]

Very Good.

You have studied well, young Padawan.

[Tormound]

Very Good.

You have studied well, young Padawan.

I think you might wanna call him something else there....

 

OT:

Honestly, the new dmg system is ok(MY SOMA NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO) but I really wish they actually explained in depth on how the damage system interacts and a list of changes to weapons such as stats(At least the popular weapons....)

[ClaymoreNo47]

Oh yeah and PS, Gorgon is king again. I can live with that. 

[Quasar-Sandwich]

I think you might wanna call him something else there....

 

OT:

Honestly, the new dmg system is ok(MY SOMA NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO) but I really wish they actually explained in depth on how the damage system interacts and a list of changes to weapons such as stats(At least the popular weapons....)

as I've noticed with my build. I'm getting 1800 damage per shot on the heads of any greneer (excluding bosses). you just gotta aim now.

[Silvershadow66]

1) made this game highly confusing for non min-max oriented players

 

Ha ha, No.

 

If you don't want to min-max then you stick in a +damage mod and whatever else you like. The reduction is armour scaling makes weapons more viable that were not min-maxed. The decision as to whether you should go crit build etc is exactly the same as before.

[ClaymoreNo47]

Ha ha, No.

 

If you don't want to min-max then you stick in a +damage mod and whatever else you like. The reduction is armour scaling makes weapons more viable that were not min-maxed. The decision as to whether you should go crit build etc is exactly the same as before.

Thing is we've been asking for reduction in armor scaling for months. It was as simple as reducing the forumula. We didn't ask for all this. Armor scaling was literally the only thing anyone complained about. How their non armor piercing gun did 1 damage at high lvls.

[IronRushBR]

Thing is we've been asking for reduction in armor scaling for months. It was as simple as reducing the forumula. We didn't ask for all this. Armor scaling was literally the only thing anyone complained about. How their non armor piercing gun did 1 damage at high lvls.

 

No...

The actual model is very good. Much more complex, more fun. Game before damage 2.0 was very very simple. In resume, armor ignore weapons. Ridiculous!

 

They just need time to tweak and make this model more balanced. But from start, is much better.

[NeverNever]

Simple fix, modify percentage of the base damage mods to be lower, have them increase the damage by a percentage of total rather than respective.

[Sebastianx]

They...destroyed my Flux...only thing it's good now is mostly infested since it does ONLY Slash damage T_T...now I have to have more than 1 primary for every faction...oh the pain :(

[ClaymoreNo47]

They...destroyed my Flux...only thing it's good now is mostly infested since it does ONLY Slash damage T_T...now I have to have more than 1 primary for every faction...oh the pain :(

they destroyed alot of weapons, its gonna take a a few days for me to compile a list with full explanations on where they stand now in relation to damage 1.0

 

Lots of post that claim complicity, intricacy, and depth but all i see is no options for min maxxer's. 

Edited November 22, 2013 by ClaymoreNo47

[yggdrazzle]

Simple fix, modify percentage of the base damage mods to be lower, have them increase the damage by a percentage of total rather than respective.

Yeah, that'd be interesting if they had two types of mods, ones that increase by % and ones that increase additively. Could make for a few more modding combinations that are worth trying out on different guns.

I like how the OP starts out by saying Armor 2.0 limits build options... and then goes on to disprove himself by listing all the new options (and even viable weapons) that didn't exist before.

I'm sorry dude, but 18-1-1 is not clearly better than 9-9-1 if you're fighting the 2nd or 3rd "1's" with it. I don't even... please fix your argument.

Edited November 22, 2013 by yggdrazzle

[Executor_Aeternus]

I must point out you can deal a ton of damage now, so long as you build things well.
Since I don't know how to link images inot these posts yet, I'll have to leave you a link, but this is just a good hit with the galatine whose damage was, well... kind of low in damage 1.0 as enemies would quite quickly have far too much health for any version of melee to be effective. However, now.... *points*
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/470920157737235164/C4970538BF29828AA68E8DA7F5A3DC3DDE2DEF85/1024x576.resizedimage

This goes for most weapons, so... While it's true that you can, of course, maximize the daamge of your weapon and say it's "supposed" to be built that way, I also point out that even if you don't and simply change the weapon and build it as you'd like (when it comes to status effects, firing speed, etc), then it's far more forgiving since you'll do a LOT of damage anyway.

[ClaymoreNo47]

I must point out you can deal a ton of damage now, so long as you build things well.

Since I don't know how to link images inot these posts yet, I'll have to leave you a link, but this is just a good hit with the galatine whose damage was, well... kind of low in damage 1.0 as enemies would quite quickly have far too much health for any version of melee to be effective. However, now.... *points*

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/470920157737235164/C4970538BF29828AA68E8DA7F5A3DC3DDE2DEF85/1024x576.resizedimage

This goes for most weapons, so... While it's true that you can, of course, maximize the daamge of your weapon and say it's "supposed" to be built that way, I also point out that even if you don't and simply change the weapon and build it as you'd like (when it comes to status effects, firing speed, etc), then it's far more forgiving since you'll do a LOT of damage anyway.

your thesis is sound....agreed. Its more forgiving for someone who doesn't want to math. There are a few traps thought but time will ultimately inform players not to build that way on specific weapons. 

[BlueIstari]

I feel like Damage 2.0 would have been much better without splitting the physical damage types.

[Keltik0ne]

The thing is, they basically made the game rock/paper/scissors despite saying that wasn't what they wanted to do.

 

Junk weapons are still junk, only now a lot of previously good weps joined thier ranks.

[ClaymoreNo47]

Yeah, that'd be interesting if they had two types of mods, ones that increase by % and ones that increase additively. Could make for a few more modding combinations that are worth trying out on different guns.

I like how the OP starts out by saying Armor 2.0 limits build options... and then goes on to disprove himself by listing all the new options (and even viable weapons) that didn't exist before.

I'm sorry dude, but 18-1-1 is not clearly better than 9-9-1 if you're fighting the 2nd or 3rd "1's" with it. I don't even... please fix your argument.

its implied that trap options re not options. Hey here's three good options two of them suck really badly but its ok since you can choose, its called options. This doesn't not fly in the min max world only options that provide different uses for different situations can qualify as options. I went into extreme depth about every feature of 2.0 and explained what your thinking process of choosing build order might be and each time i only see limitations; of course in the min-max perspective. 

 

 

I want to stress enjoy war frame how you want to enjoy it, this is largely only a issue of min-max.

Edited November 22, 2013 by ClaymoreNo47

[Archistopheles]

They...destroyed my Flux...only thing it's good now is mostly infested since it does ONLY Slash damage T_T...now I have to have more than 1 primary for every faction...oh the pain :(

 

Once you add Corrosive to your Flux, you will be happy again.

[Othergrunty]

*snips*

 

Thanks for indebth and well worded analysis.

 

I said it before in another thread, but the whole system is just adding new layer of confusion, making life for us as players more exausting rather than easier.

 

Especialy new players will suffer from that. Both from the confusion and the fact that the Braton Mk1 is now even worse than before by having a unbalanced damage types.

 

All we wanted was for enemies to have less insane armor at higher levels. This could have been done by not letting enemy armor scale but give them a fixed damage reduction percentage. Instead we now have to write down the resistance types and elemental effects, then check up the different stats on our weapons and then slap on the few mods that actualy improve the weapon.

 

If not for Scott having spend a lot of work on this, i would wish for him to just scale everythig back.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Othergrunty

[Wallace24]

the thing is it made it so you can't just use one gun for any mission without at least changing up the mods. it made having multiple primaries and secondaries almost a necessity, which must be tough for f2p's without weapon slots

[Wallace24]

The thing is, they basically made the game rock/paper/scissors despite saying that wasn't what they wanted to do.

 

Junk weapons are still junk, only now a lot of previously good weps joined thier ranks.

they said that? I assumed that was exactly what they wanted, since that seems to be the best way to balance damage types and resistances and such. if that's really what they intended, then I don't even know why they rehauled the damage system at all, it wasn't that bad before

[ClaymoreNo47]

the thing is it made it so you can't just use one gun for any mission without at least changing up the mods. it made having multiple primaries and secondaries almost a necessity, which must be tough for f2p's without weapon slots

i thought so at first but you can. Stick to 

 

-Corrosive does +75% vs Armor and +50% vs Robotic. 

-Magnetic does +75% vs Shield and +50% vs Robotic.

-Heat does +75% vs Flesh and +50% vs Infested.

 

After analyzing all the elements in my list these 3 are the best and best is the only option. They have no weakness's while providing the best bonus's. They also happen to cover all the enemy types.

Edited November 22, 2013 by ClaymoreNo47

[Etsoree]

 

DE seems to be under the impression that the right way to build a weapon isn't the strongest way but your way and that is objectively false. The correct way to build a weapon is to make it the strongest it can possibly be and this system truly only allows for one build per gun.

 

And you get this information from where? This is your opinion and yours alone.

[ClaymoreNo47]

And you get this information from where? This is your opinion and yours alone.

i fully respect someones decision to get less damage out of their weapons its everyone own jazz but DE completely redesigned a game system so the only way to provide feedback is with analysis and math on the effects of that new system.

 

Anyone can play war frame how they choose i'm only analyzing a new system that was just released. I don't think the correct response to a new system shoved down our throat is to not learn the benefits it provides and the negatives it provides.

 

I care about the most damage and i fully get that not everyone does. I must note at some point you need damage to kill something high lvl so damage is somewhat objectively crucial. 

Edited November 22, 2013 by ClaymoreNo47

[lautalocos]

The thing is, they basically made the game rock/paper/scissors despite saying that wasn't what they wanted to do.

 

Junk weapons are still junk, only now a lot of previously good weps joined thier ranks.

didn´t they say that was exactly what they wanted to do?

 or im i wrong? i don´t know anymore.