A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[Cabadath5]

If only a few of these ideas were implemented they would improve the game tremendously.

The fact that this thread is so old and it seemed to receive so little attention from the devs saddens me.

[--Xalted-LuaGuard--]

The fact that player progression is tied to chance and not skill/dedication.

 

THIS.

[theGreatZamboni]

Well the image hosting service I used for my mock ups in the OP decided to remove said images for no reason. I will be re uploading and replacing the now missing images as well as potentially updating the topic.

[Blatantfool]

 I still want this. Especially now.

[Zirion_Bk]

Okay, this is what Rebecca replied with when I asked her if the mod system will ever get replaced:

Me: The mod system. Will it EVER get replaced in favor for other systems (Skill trees, weapon attachments and so on)? Not saying I want that to happen, I just want to know.

 

Rebecca: Outright replaced in one fell swoop? I don't know! I suspect we will definitely explore things in the long term that work in tandem with the mod system, maybe reintroduce skill trees, etc - to say anything is actively coming would be a guess, but there are a lot of good ideas and we may explore some down the rode.

[Chacalblack]

I agree! I Agree! I aGrEe! Please DE. Give us it now!

[Chupacabra]

This thread has never rung more true to me than it does now.

 

 

We're getting more and more mods, coupled with more and more RNG.

 

 

They did implement stances! And then they made it a mod card with no depth that you need to rely on RNG to get... ugh.

 

 

It angers me that we have problems whose solutions were here, very well written and thought out, what is it now 7 months ago?

Edited June 25, 2014 by Chupacabra

[Pbrandon1]

I'm bumping this until DE see this...this thread made me cry.

 

+100000000000

[imaxium]

"The fact that player progression is tied to chance and not skill/dedication."

 

Warframe would be 10x more fun if less was dependent on chance. Why Chance? All other games things just cost more, you grind for gold so you buy the better stuff, not grind for a chance to get it. Instead of Hoping and praying something drops, why not just have it uber expensive in resources and credits? Then you know you can get it if you put in the time, whereas with chance, putting in the time might still = nothing.

[theGreatZamboni]

This thread has never rung more true to me than it does now.

 

 

We're getting more and more mods, coupled with more and more RNG.

 

 

They did implement stances! And then they made it a mod card with no depth that you need to rely on RNG to get... ugh.

 

 

It angers me that we have problems whose solutions were here, very well written and thought out, what is it now 7 months ago?

 

The concept was never fully finished because I gave up. I am currently writing more complementary threads to revive the concept and talk more about why Warframe is so lacking. Given melee was just changed and recently discussed on the Devstream, here were my thoughts on fixing melee, a short concept sent to Grineeer. Ironically the thing that makes Melee 2.0 so "meh" is a combination of poor execution and even if executed properly- mods would cause serious issues.

 

----

 

It is not an issue of combos of being poorly telegraphed. It is because combos do not matter at all. The new system is not impacted or centered around combos but rather the hit counter. The hint counter is king. The faster you get the hit counter up, the more damage you will deal. Here are the primary reasons the new melee system falls short due to poor realization of the combo system:

 

A) You don't need combos because most melee weapons are so insanely powerful due to being modded, enemies die in 1 to 2 hits making combos pointless

 

B) You do not need combos to increase the hit counter, you can easily do so using basic attacks combined with attack speed mods. Which then funnels into my first point. Once your hit counter has been inflated to an insane degree combined with the power of mods- you don't need to combo

 

C) Procs cannot compare to pure damage and mods that enhance either pure damage, elements or procs. Mods in combinatin with basic attacks are easier means of distributing damage than using a combo. A proc is not a good enough reward for finishing a combo

 

The ancillary reason are as follows. Risk vs. Reward. It is more rewarding to stack damage, and just use basic hits to build up the hit counter and distribute damage. The risk of being locked into a canned animation that doesn't hit anything and causes your hit counter to disappear makes the combos unattractive. The combos are not tactile enough and when they are being used it is simply because the player is indiscriminately clicking/pressing and performs a simplistic combo. Stances like Iron Phoenix feature a small gap closer on the basic EEE, which make it better for maintaining the hit counter. This is not a result of the hits made by the combo, nor the procs, but the ability to maintain and chain hit enemies with what are essentially basic attacks.

 

Melee 2.0 suffers because Procs are weak and combos are unnecessary due to lack of actual utility. You risk losing your hit counter if you are forced into a canned animation and strike nothing but air. The system lacks depth and variety. You may want to consider some kind of pay off system where once you reach a certain number of hits, you can perform a combo to consume your hit counter and deal massive damage. Also consider making combos that utilize channeling in the combo sequence. The consuming of your hit counter to deal massive damage in the form of a pay off strike is more compelling. You can gain hits through standard swings and some more simple combos, then use a longer combo to consume the hit counter to do a massive AOE or single strike. The AOE can do damage, some sort of uber-proc or maybe be utility and knock enemies down. Including the use of channeling in these pay off combos and simpler ones also would aid in creating a more tactile response without the need for better visual ques such as a combo chain displayed on screen. Given the current simplistic nature of the system, the chain would currently be more or less worthless. Adding in channeling and pay offs would mean the use of a visible combo chain would be more important as there are more combos which are more complex.

 

Even with these vague suggestions, the issue of the flat damage and power of melee remains. Hitting an enemy once or twice with a melee weapon kills them. When you get to higher level content, the scaling matters more but is handled poorly based on the mechanics of the game. Unless you used Radial Disarm on level 40+ enemies, getting close to them is suicide and that comes from issues outside of melee that cause it to suffer. Mods make everything difficult to account for when designing challenge and content. So you make enemies scale massively to compensate, but the very mods you compensate for are then defeated. When discussing melee, you try to overcome this with the hit counter but unless the enemy is disarmed- good luck getting close.

 

When you removed charge attacks you also removed your teams ability for more combos as well. Things like E, Charge E, E, E  are no longer possible. The timing and visual ques created from that would have ensured a better feel to the system. Channeling could have been incorporated as well alongside charge, but as it stands the addition of channels into combos should help pad them or allow you to create more combos. But the problem will always remain, because melee is so powerful due to mods up to a certain threshold- melee will only shine against 30-50 then fall off unless you use things like Radial Disarm.

Edited June 26, 2014 by theGreatZamboni

[Zirion_Bk]

"The fact that player progression is tied to chance and not skill/dedication."

 

Warframe would be 10x more fun if less was dependent on chance. Why Chance? All other games things just cost more, you grind for gold so you buy the better stuff, not grind for a chance to get it. Instead of Hoping and praying something drops, why not just have it uber expensive in resources and credits? Then you know you can get it if you put in the time, whereas with chance, putting in the time might still = nothing.

Actually, a lot of games depend on chance to provide longevity (I use Vindictus, Maplestory, Monster Hunter and lots of mmos as my example). Just look at Monster Hunter, a game based on grind and chance where there's no character level and you are dependent on chance to get the things you need to go to the harder content. Huge game in japan and getting a growing playerbase here in the west. That game does essentially the same thing as Warframe which is grinding for a chance to get that one thing to drop, and yet people play each game in the franchise for 1000+ hours. However, if the game had a system that guaranteed that you would get that one thing if you fulfilled certain conditions (Hunt it x times, do x y times in battle, collect enough of x to trade them for y and so on), the game would lose a lot of it's play time.

 

Oh, and one more thing: There is trading in Warframe, so if you grind enough void you can get some prime parts or bps that you don't need and sell them to other players for plat. With that plat you can then buy what you need instead of grinding for an unknown amount of time. Solution to your problem found.

[GlamourChariot]

Just stumbled upon this thread, saw how long it was and promised myself I'd read it before going to bed.

 

Haven't ever been so glad.

 

 

Literally just today I was waxing nostalgic at the crappy tree system and how it could be worked back into the game while idly farming with youtube videos open because otherwise it's basically unbearable.

 

I agree with everything, even the apparently controversial melee system. OP is based god now.

[theGreatZamboni]

Actually, a lot of games depend on chance to provide longevity (I use Vindictus, Maplestory, Monster Hunter and lots of mmos as my example). Just look at Monster Hunter, a game based on grind and chance where there's no character level and you are dependent on chance to get the things you need to go to the harder content. Huge game in japan and getting a growing playerbase here in the west. That game does essentially the same thing as Warframe which is grinding for a chance to get that one thing to drop, and yet people play each game in the franchise for 1000+ hours. However, if the game had a system that guaranteed that you would get that one thing if you fulfilled certain conditions (Hunt it x times, do x y times in battle, collect enough of x to trade them for y and so on), the game would lose a lot of it's play time.

 

Oh, and one more thing: There is trading in Warframe, so if you grind enough void you can get some prime parts or bps that you don't need and sell them to other players for plat. With that plat you can then buy what you need instead of grinding for an unknown amount of time. Solution to your problem found.

 

You overplay the RNG of Monster Hunter and seemingly disregard that game has a good core system of combat that is fun and intuitive. You are using the concept of acceptable application of RNG to justify using it as the core system of this game, which is wrong. The theme and tone presented in Monster Hunter are reflected in both the RNG and tedious prep work done, but most importantly the tactile combat and rewarding fights. Warframe does not have a good core system. You fail to understand that the mission structure of Monster Hunter is a result of the platform that made it so huge, the PSP. It was a mobile game meant to be played on the go. The concept of doing a quick hunt on the train to work was a major draw for the game, along with the concept and esthetic. There are home releases, showcasing the core design makes the game as much fun to play at home, as it is on the go. This makes it ideal for people with limited amounts of time, while offering a robust and mechanically satisfying combat system along with a decent challenge- show casing just how good the design of the game is. In fact Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate allows you to play the game on your 3DS and then upload your save to your Wii U, once again showcasing the appeal and well thought out design that makes the game fun to play sitting down or on the go.

 

You are failing to encompass the whole of an idea before using it to fuel a counter argument. Warframe is not inherently challenging, you don't learn patterns of enemies, there is no mastery of game mechanics, you stack mods on the best DPS gun and shoot. There is no positioning, there is little skill. Skill comes in the form of perseverance through game mechanics so vapid of substance, you have to push through the same arduous missions to get what you want. In Monster Hunter, it is as much about the hunt as it is the reward, where Warframe is only fueled by rewards. Which hilariously enough was actually admitted by Scott on the previous Devstream. The RNG is not pervasive in Monster Hunter and again, plays into the concept of the hunt. You don't always get what you want, but you will have fun doing it, so playing it one more time won't hurt.

 

You also fail to understand the part where a more acceptable form of RNG would remain in the form of blueprint drops and materials, as it pertains to my OP. Having someone pull one quote from my post and saying they understand and agree with the concept, isn't grounds for you to jump on it using false truths that are half presented simply to fuel your side of the argument. Players are rewarded in Monster Hunter through skill and dedication more so than chance. It is through mastery of combat that you can easily take down a boss to attain what you want or for the fun of it. There is an acceptable way to use RNG to create replayability and interesting experiences. The issue we have currently is: Warframe is RNG, with dull mechanics that railroad builds. Using a Skana vs a Dakra Prime has no bearing on how you play, one is simply better. You then mod the crap out of the Dakra Prime and success comes from being able to not outplay the enemy, but out DPS them. More similar to Monster Hunter, there are TYPES of weapons with variants. But using a sword vs. a polearm does not affect how you combat the enemy, just the way you wan to look and the pure damage you deal. In Monster Hunter, playing with the Gunlance vs. Switch Axe actually affects gameplay, creates choice and will also appeal to people who enjoy certain mechanics and are better at some than others. In Warframe, you won't find someone who is better at using daggers vs. a hammer because that simply is not how Warframe was designed.

 

In Monster Hunter, when you beat a boss for the first time you are guaranteed certain items. The same with where you fight and if you are able to attack certain parts of the enemy. That is completely reliant on skill. In Monster Hunter there is an ebb and flow to combat, whereas in Warframe it is constant running though levels to get to the end or a race to see if you can out DPS the enemy before they overwhelm you with damage and massive health bars, not tactics. You can cause enemies in Monster Hunter to follow certain patterns of attack based on damage, where you damage and what environment you fight them in- giving the player control. In Warframe, bosses are static and focus on overuse of invincibility phases.

 

Basically what it comes down to is- The RNG in Monster Hunter is not pervasive and ancillary to the game's presentation. The RNG in Warframe is overbearing and over exposed due to the nature of the game and its lack of proper design or content. Don't say "RNG works with X, so it is excused in Y". That is misrepresenting the argument. Games like Sorry and Mario Party still manage to be fun, even with use of RNG. Warframe fails because it is only a skin for a constant treadmill of end rewards governed by RNG. The player has little choice in what they do or how to best do it.

 

I choose to comment on Monster Hunter specifically because it is the bulk of your comment. As for MMOs, and the like, that is a whole other can of worms I'd rather not open.

 

Trading is a way to get items, sure. Understand this, say you get every item in the game- what then? What does the game have to offer until the next treadmill is up and running? Trading is not the convenience it ought to be. If the game featured it along with a decent core game, then Trading would not be just another way to expedite players from not having to play the game. Since the entire game is end rewards and RNG, you will spend most of your time striving to attain certain items to then level them and then use those to get new items- that is Warframe. Buying things like Nekros or Corrupted Mods mean you don't even have to go to the Derelicts. Trading and the Cash shop have become way to ensure you don't actually have to experience content, you pay to not play. This is bad for players. Again if the game were not focused on end rewards and treadmill design, things like Trading would either not have been necessary or simply for convenience. Trading is basically a means of coping with the endless waves of hurdles you need to repeatedly jump. You get tired of grinding for Loki Prime parts, so you either cave and buy the Prime Access or you buy the parts off of someone using Plat.

 

This whole model is doing seemingly great business for DE, but it makes people who think like me sad because Warframe can be so much more than a Cash Shop. If Warframe succeed both monetarily and conceptually, that offers them new avenues in the future for other projects. Sooner or later people (whales as some developers disparagingly call them) will stop buying stuff and move on. DE might have made a boat load of money, but it will have cost them their artistic integrity and potentially the trust of people like me who bought in early on under the naive impression I was helping create something great.

Edited June 25, 2014 by theGreatZamboni

[Zirion_Bk]

-snip-

Zamboni, as much as I agree with your points, the topic at hand was how a lot of games has player progression tied to chance a.k.a RNG. You just wrote up a needlessly large amount of arguments, which are unrelated to the topic and more related to the rest of the game, which the topic did not cover. Let's go over the points you made:

 

-Monster Hunter is a well-made franchise with a good core system: Irrelevant because the topic at hand is player progression tied to chance appearing in more games than imaxium thinks, not gameplay or core systems.

 

-Monster Hunter is mainly a hand-held game franchise and also works well on home consoles: Irrelevant. You derailed yourself from the topic at hand quite well here.

 

-The difference between Monster Hunter and Warframe gameplay: What you say there is true. Warframe does not have a combat system so deep or engaging as Monster Hunter and the difference in challenge is enormous. Being skilled also gets one further in Monster Hunter with rewards and so on, that I will agree with. But it is still irrelevant to the topic.

 

-Difference between weapon types in both games: Again, none of this is relevant to player progression tied to chance appearing in more games. It just affects ones gameplay style and amount of fun had. And also, I would use a Bone Kris and a Djinn (Both are from the same weapon type) the exact same way. Your Skana vs. Dakra Prime (Also from the same weapon type) argument makes no sense.

 

-Rewards for skill and getting certain items for first-time kills: Ummm, I'm sorry, but where did you get the idea that Monster Hunter gives you certain items (Going to assume the low droprate ones) upon killing a certain monster for the first time? That is not true, as my numerous first-time encounters with monsters have shown. For skill rewards, I have nothing to counter with.

 

I'll summarize the points here:

 

My points were: how a lot of games ties player progression to chance and how similar Monster Hunter and Warframe is in that regard (and only that).

 

Your points were: How Monster Hunter has a well-made core system, how Monster Hunter works extremely well on both handhelds and home consoles, the gameplay difference between Monster Hunter and Warframe, the weapon type difference between the two games, how Monster Hunter rewards skill more than Warframe and the untrue certain items guaranteed for first-time kill.

 

Your reply could have been much shorter had you kept yourself to the topic at hand, but you went far out of your way to explain every difference between Monster Hunter and Warframe. All that while the topic was, as I've stated, player progression that is tied to chance, which both games do, though Monster Hunter rewards skill more.

 

Off-topic: I urge you to look at a reply I made to this thread not too long ago with what Rebecca said when I asked the question (Will the mod system ever be replaced?). 

 

EDIT: Made some necessary edits. Note to self: Never write replies when half-asleep.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Zirion_Bk

[WubbaDubDub]

Really glad I climbed that mountain of text!

 

I've been playing Warframe religiously for over a year now and up until recently every ounce of new content, every event, and every Devstream has made me giddy with excitement. But lately I've been just bored and frustrated. Every point you raised and almost every suggestion to improve gameplay is absolutely brilliant. Except I would much prefer to see a melee system like this one: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/251374-melee-25-making-melee-20-fit-warframes-pace/

 

I really really hope DE takes this thread to heart. Honestly, after reading this, I don't even want to play Warframe again until it is rebuilt upon your foundation.

 

+1 

[Gammaion]

Did not have time to read the text that could extend all the way to Sedna when it is farthest from the Sun, but I agree.

 

EDIT: Read the whole thing. This would work extremely well and would improve the game drastically!

 

DE could probably integrate this into the game over huge updates. (U15, U16 etc)

Edited June 26, 2014 by Gammaion

[CBAROG]

 This whole model is doing seemingly great business for DE, but it makes people who think like me sad because Warframe can be so much more than a Cash Shop. If Warframe succeed both monetarily and conceptually, that offers them new avenues in the future for other projects. Sooner or later people (whales as some developers disparagingly call them) will stop buying stuff and move on. DE might have made a boat load of money, but it will have cost them their artistic integrity and potentially the trust of people like me who bought in early on under the naive impression I was helping create something great.

This. So much this.

 

snip

What theGreatZamboni said is true. Game that relies on RNG as much as Warframe and has nothing to offer except grind and shinies is bad. Monster Hunter has a lot to offer. It's FUN first and foremost. So 

 

You overplay the RNG of Monster Hunter and seemingly disregard that game has a good core system of combat that is fun and intuitive. You are using the concept of acceptable application of RNG to justify using it as the core system of this game, which is wrong. The theme and tone presented in Monster Hunter are reflected in both the RNG and tedious prep work done, but most importantly the tactile combat and rewarding fights. Warframe does not have a good core system. 

 

 Don't say "RNG works with X, so it is excused in Y".

[Zirion_Bk]

Oh my lord, how many times do my words have to be misinterpreted? Zamboni, CBAROG, you both are apparently thinking that I am saying "RNG works with X, so it is excused in Y" and also ignore the topic that was going on at the time. Let me clarify this as much as I can:

 

I am NOT saying that I excuse Warframe's use of RNG and player progression tied to chance because Monster Hunter uses RNG and ties player progression to chance. The topic at hand was how more games than imaxium thought tied player progression to chance, not anything else. Things like gameplay, story, visuals, heck, everything aside from the existence of player progression tied to chance, I purposefully ignored.

 

You two have proven that either you are incapable of fully comprehending my words or that my english is lacking, which opens up misinterpretation. I ask you, where did I say "RNG works with X, so it is excused in Y" anywhere in my post? Where did I even care about the gameplay or the visuals of both games? What was the topic at hand? Give me quotes pulled straight from my post and show me them. 

[CBAROG]

That game does essentially the same thing as Warframe which is grinding for a chance to get that one thing to drop, and yet people play each game in the franchise for 1000+ hours. However, if the game had a system that guaranteed that you would get that one thing if you fulfilled certain conditions (Hunt it x times, do x y times in battle, collect enough of x to trade them for y and so on), the game would lose a lot of it's play time.

Here you go.

[Zirion_Bk]

Here you go.

Clearly I need to improve my english, as it was not my intention that it was supposed to be interpreted that way. What I was trying to say was that Monster Hunter has player progression tied to chance to provide longevity, just like Warframe, though Monster Hunter has a very fun,  challenging and rewarding combat to boot. I was simply comparing the two (And adding some words about guaranteed rewards for doing certain things), not saying that Warframe's player progression gets a free pass because of Monster Hunter having the same type. 

 

Now we have the "RNG works with x, so it is excused in Y" thing down. What about the other things I asked you to answer?

[CBAROG]

 Where did I even care about the gameplay or the visuals of both games? 

When did I care about that? "RNG works with x, so it is excused in Y". Following my interpretation of your words I said that it's not excused in Warframe. Nothing else.

[Chacalblack]

These guys f * cking complain that come here are the same as entering the game and simply pressing the Nova's 4 and not make an unique combination of melee. They just want a high number of kill for no reason at goal. I sincerely hope to redo the bases since all the game system is compromissed with this useless "cards". I do not care. The game is beta anyway. 

Maybe the implementation of a system of skills trees are actually more interesting. And for God's sake DE. Stop making new warframes and new Mods and leave this game even more meaningless and without perspective. There is nothing else to do but wait for this game to launch a new warframe or leveling and final weapon. The game is sold out and emptied of meaning in itself. There is history ... There is no end of history. Has many gaps to be filled, I know, but could focus a bit and stop turning this game into a replica of the SI-FI Zinga? Hopefully, with a large number of players believe that, at least consider this proposal.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Chacalblack

[Chacalblack]

I sincerely hope that this new update is a change in structures that are a real bummer. Repeating things to drip from the dead Grineers, Infested or Corpus. Even when the stalker appears, is already something bland and does not offer a real challenge. Even the so feared Grustrags or chilling formerly Harvester. They are enemies who left their ferocities last ... A serious overhaul is needed, and urgently. 

DE, it's time to put some sense in all this. Please do not misunderstand my words. They are the fruit of much annoyance with this current system ...

Edited June 27, 2014 by Chacalblack

[grillv20]

 

I sincerely hope that this new update is a change in structures that are a real bummer. Repeating things to drip from the dead Grineers, Infested or Corpus. Appears when the Stalker is now a thing of grace and does not offer a real challenge. Even the so feared Grustrags or chilling formerly Harvester. They are enemies who left their ferocities last ... A serious overhaul is needed, and urgently. 

DE, it's time to put some sense in all this. Please do not misunderstand my words. They are the fruit of much annoyance with this current system ...

 

 

I wouldn't get your hopes up too much seeing as DE has problems with even introducing drop tables that make sense. I'm sure there will be some sort of massive overhaul coming in the next months though. The last big overhaul was damage 2.0. Theres no telling really for sure though.

Edited June 27, 2014 by grillv20

[Refrus]

When you realize DE's new focus system coming....

 

That should be satisfying, But a change of the mod card system would make the game much better. 

Couldn't Forma be freemium passive skill Respecs in this? DE would grant other respec items that cost platinum for greater effect.

Modules would fit much better in this system. Although some mods really should disappear such as Serration, or become standard for each weapon as it lvls up.

 

While adding more warframe mod drops from enemies is not favorable, furthering along a skill tree to unlock new powers to change a skill would be very interesting. it would add a lvl of progression from gameplay, other than a rare drop. 

 

back to the original post, 

Ember should have the OPTION to be a tank with whatever implied drawbacks.

 

Or another example, Trinity's Link

Share damage to 4 enemies with 60% reduc, or share to 2 enemies with 90% reduction

(3 enemies 75% dmg reduct standard max lvl)

 

I second this

Edited June 27, 2014 by Refrus