Melee 2.0 Feedback - On Mobility

[Lumireaver]

Okay, Melee 2.0 was a fantastic improvement over the previous system. Melee was made extremely viable, and the new system has raised the skill ceiling of the game by introducing timed combos. New things to master are always welcome. The art/animation team also really outdid themselves, I think, because our new moves are all fantastic looking.

 

As a point of interest, I’ve even asked several less Warframe-savvy friends what they think about the update to melee, and they all loved it. Personally though, I still believe there’s room to make it much better, and much more streamlined. 

 

Before the update actually rolled out, forum goers and Stream-watchers were hyped up by mentions of action games like Devil May Cry being cited as inspiration for the feel and flow of combat. I feel these casual mentions are why people like myself and my Warfriends were just slightly let down. Instead of a radically new way to play, we got an intense viability update to Melee 1.0-style gameplay. An admittedly massive, and amazing one, but the core is still the same. Justification forthcoming.

 

Playing Melee 1.0 was about running up to mobs and mashing your attack button. Some weapons favored charge builds while other, more novel ones could make due with attack speed builds. Approaching enemies was extremely troublesome, so this kind of gameplay fell off very quickly at high levels.

 

Perhaps the most significant change brought about by Melee 2.0 is that our capacity to block has nearly eliminated the difficulty of closing distance. Beyond this, however, the core gameplay is fundamentally very similar. We only need to run up to mobs and mash our attack buttons. Steve has expressed that the skill ceiling has been raised through the implementation of combos, and while it’s true that they can be tricky to input, they’re not necessary, or even particularly efficient.

 

Channeling is also another significant change, and it looks freaking badass, but I contend that perhaps the implementation ought to be rethought a little. Currently, all channelling does is boost damage. One could argue that weighing energy cost and damage output is a kind of “tactical decision,” but it’s not really a meaningful one. We find ourselves asking “Do more damage, or do less damage?” Effectively, the game’s the same. The channeling mechanic, I feel, ought to be used to do more interesting things. (For example, pulling a heavily shielded and withdrawn enemy out of a defensive state, or staggering enemies which are preparing heavy attacks. I feel that channelling could be used to open new gameplay possibilities.)

 

With Melee 2.0, we also saw the end of charge attacks, but I feel that might not have been necessary. In brief, charge attacks could easily be incorporated into combos. Especially with heavier weapons, which could have combos that consist primarily of charged, timed attacks. 

 

That’s about all I have to say about what’s already there. (And what’s been removed.) There are, however, a few new things I’d like to see Melee 2.0 try out. Mechanics which will meaningfully change the way Tenno fight. Changes which will really let us play “Sword Alone”.

 

In most action games, especially faster paced ones, players often have the ability to lock-on. Locking on makes it possible to navigate towards and around threats in an effective manner. Different games have different lock-on mechanics, with some games utilizing a “soft” lock-on where the player character will naturally gravitate towards nearby enemies as a sort of aim assist. Warframe optionally utilizes this kind of lock-on, however given the frantic nature of gameplay and the abundance of enemies as well as the fact that gameplay information can frequently be obfuscated by chaos, it’s not particularly helpful.

 

It could be vastly improved if a few changes were made to the system. (Bear in mind, I’m talking about melee for now.)  First, the lock-on radius ought to be increased significantly. I’ll expand on my reasoning for this in a bit. Second, an icon should hover over the enemy which is being locked onto. This is because with the amount of enemies typically present on screen, knowing where you’re going to be attacking is incredibly important. (Alternatively it would be cool if this information could be communicated without UI elements by having the player’s ‘Frame look towards the enemy which is currently being locked onto.)

 

(Random note: I don’t feel manual lock-on would be ideal in a game like Warframe, but I believe it’s an idea worth considering. ...Mostly because we’re out of keys to map, but also because enemies tend to die pretty quickly. Perhaps tagged enemies could have lock-on priority?)

 

A longer lock-on radius as well as an indication of which enemy is presently being locked onto would enable more varied combo input, as directional input could be used to switch up moves. Additionally, evasive maneuvers could be better utilized to strafe around enemies, and other neat stuff. Below is a video which utilizes evasive maneuvers (and crowd control) to fantastic effect:

 

 

There a lot of interesting things that Black Desert does, but I think the most important things to note are:

♦ The degree of control the player has over enemies through crowd control (CC) techniques.

♦ The apparent snappiness and distance covered by evasive maneuvers.

♦ The fact that evasion and mobility don’t pull from the same resource that attacking does.

 

I’ll talk a bit more about CC in a bit. For now, I’d like to focus on evasion. Players don’t have a lot of ninja-like options when it comes to dodging bullets. As it stands, we can do a spiffy looking cartwheel (or a backflip) at the cost a significant chunk of our stamina, which is likely going to be depleted if we’ve been blocking or attacking. All the while, we’ll be taking hits, as our evasive animations are particularly slow. (Even if they are beautiful.) The fact that evasion pulls from the same resource that attacking and blocking do makes it particularly hard to use reliably. In slower games, like Dark Souls, stamina management is a core element of gameplay, but in faster paced games, that kind of thing doesn’t tend to factor in due to the differences is the nature of enemy encounters and other factors.

 

I don’t have any specific suggestions as to how stamina ought to be broken down to better suit Warframe’s gameplay, but I feel that’s an area which is particularly important and ought to be discussed here in this topic.

 

Random aside: Here’s a link to a topic by my non-consensual life partner on the subject of dodging. If different ‘Frames evaded in different ways it would also provide some particularly interesting dynamics to builds and loadouts.

 

Another extremely important quality of fast-paced action games is that player characters tend to have much more mobile offensive actions. (As well as defensive ones, but I’ll get back to that in a bit.) Presently, most of our combos don’t offer us much in the way of movement. We can’t use techniques to close distance, and only specific Warframe’s can use abilities to fill the gap. ...In Devil May Cry Dante is armed with the Stinger technique, which allows him to close a lot of distance with a forward thrust. It’s very much a staple in gameplay, typically used to jump from one enemy to the next. Additionally, techniques like this don’t need to remain grounded. Ninja Gaiden’s Ryu Hayabusa has the Flying Swallow, an aerial maneuver with a very similar function. (Having a technique like that would make hitting airborne targets like drones possible, which would facilitate real “Sword Alone” gameplay.)

 

Also important, as Cas has pointed out to me, is that a lot of attacks in combos will often “stop short” of their intended targets. He offered up this video: 

 

 

“Here, when Nero dashes forward to launch his attack, he waits to actually perform the attack until he reaches a potential target. If the potential target is too far, he’ll just stop and perform the attack animation after reaching a set distance.” - Cas

 

Additionally, it’s not just the players who aren’t moving enough. Enemies don’t seem to be affected by our impact in the slightest. ...Unless they ragdoll away on death. I was playing with Cas the other day, and he said to me, “It's just weird how all those Fragor attacks make them flinch a bit, but only when they die do they fly off.” Heavy enemies can knock us off our feet, but we’re comparatively powerless to knock them off theirs. When we whack a Grineer, a Corpus, or an Infested, they ought to be staggered. CC and threat management in games like DMC and Ninja Gaiden is crucial, and in those games most of the enemies tend to be close-ranged attackers. In Warframe, where the greater majority fire hitscan weapons, CC should be even more paramount. 

 

I’ve got a few different ideas on how stealth could work which are loosely tied to mobility, but this thread’s breadth is pretty wide so I’ll save it for another time.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Lumireaver

[SpilockT_T]

I just wow'd after watching that video..

I can't believe my eyes D:

[Casardis]

My main grip is that what makes even your suggestions (at least in terms of moves and mobilities, and not the specific expansion on channeling or so) unable to reach their full potential is due to how Stamina is managed, which you did talk about. Everything takes too much stamina, and draws from the same (small) pool.

 

To continue on your point on blocking using the same resource as attacks, blocking becomes useless at higher level because, the stronger the incoming bullet, the more you lose stamina, so an Elite Lancer can eat your stamina in one burst at high level, even with stamina mods (stamina mods feel like bandaids anyway). I won't even get much into how slow and negligible the dodge mechanics is against those auto-aiming hitscan guns.

 

Additionally, going from attacking to blocking bullets can't be done well with heavy melee due to both its stamina cost and huge delays between some moves. Problematic thing is that you need to be close to melee an enemy; to close in you need to block; most enemies are ranged and/or running away from you while shooting; encounters are sometimes massive while each enemies are dispersed; you need stamina to close in without taking damage ; yet stamina cost is too high at high levels.

 

It's just an endless string of issues that gives me even more reason to just sheath my Gram and pull out my Akvastos no matter the encounter. Besides, who needs combos when you can one-hit enemies with a Dragon Nikana without channeling? Those balance issues is for another topic though...

Edited May 14, 2014 by Casardis

[Calayne]

I think the stamina system is stupid.

 

For all the things that are right, it makes wrong. And the things that are wrong, still stay wrong. 

 

Here are two things which you stop using in the 1 second it takes to recover some stamina: Blocking and running. Everything else goes on as normal. In fact, zorencoptering easily bypasses this stamina requirement by needing just a little bit to fly really far. You still roll as normal, you still jump as normal, you still spam melee as normal. 

 

If they want to keep things as they are, what they really need to do is to just make rolling, jumping and attacking stamina-free. Blocking and running can still consume stamina, cause you can block and run at the same time, and negate all damage.

 

At this time, rolling means you take reduced damage anyway (Thanks to the 100% accuracy of all hit-scan enemies), but means you can't block any more, and it takes an obscene amount of stamina, just like melee does. So it is (Potentially) good for dodging projectiles, but in practice, is not viable, as homing projectiles have no momentum, and will just curve into you if you roll to the side, and the rolling animation itself is slow and clunky. Black Desert seems to have a very responsive dodge system, and I can't imagine why we can't have that as well.

 

One way to make stamina viable for melee attack, if they wish to keep it, and make it seem like less of a spam-fest, is to either buff the damage of melee weapons really, really high, and then make it so that when you're out of stamina, you can't attack until you have the minimum; Or to just remove the stamina drain from attacks, since all it does is deny you the ability to block. 

 

The one time you actually want to use stamina is to block: For a set amount of stamina, it will act like another hp bar. However, as Cas points out, even with stamina mods, that quickly becomes useless at higher levels. So why bother, really? I'm curious on whether damage will "Bleed" through if the attack exceeds the stamina drained. So you block block block, close in, attack attack attack, but now have no more stamina to block at all.

 

It would be better if you could decide whether to block and weave your way in, and then slice your enemies to bits, and then block and weave your way to the next group and so on; or whether to sprint in, blocking, and then slice your enemies to bits, but have no stamina after; Or even just not use block, rolling in, and slice people to bits, before actually having stamina to follow up with a block when you need it. As it is, it's really just slowing the pace down if you need to recover stamina, and you like blocking. Even with stamina mods, your stamina won't last through a melee fight.

 

And anyways, stamina really doesn't matter. Actually having stamina makes no difference, since you don't get any damage boosts. 

 

But you're right about the soft-locking and the movement. It'd be nice if some weapons had a charge-in ability, which was bypassed when they decided not to implement passive boosts for weapons. Daggers should make you move faster than hammers, and hammers should make you deal more CC and damage, naturally. Yet, all we get is the same kind of damage, but now you need mods for anything. It's pretty sick that everything has to deal with mods now. 

 

The other thing, I think you've all noticed, is that melee is sometimes annoying and frustrating. More than it's worth, really. This is largely due to the fact that you can neither attack low, or high, and the auto-targeting system is flawed and greatly impaired. The stumbling that your opponent does is nice, but because of that, your next few attacks will fail, thanks to him leaving your range, the targeting not accounting for that, and then you swing at thin air. A frustrating scenario.

 

Even worse, when you stand on top of your enemy (Wow), you can't attack them at all, while they fire up your crotch like a deadly game of "Kancho". 

 

Overall: Terrible stamina system which detracts from melee, not aid it; Lackluster, slow, unresponsive manoeuvrability; Wonky auto-aim which does a terrible job of killing enemies; And lack of an aiming mechanism, for low and high opponents (And really, does who you step under your heel). 

[notionphil]

successfully hitting an enemy with successive hits of your combo should reward you with bonus stamina - more than the combo itself cost. as should finishers, or well timed dodges.

 

since the launch of m2.0 I've felt that any sort of single target focused combo mechanic is out of place in a game where most things should die in 1 or 2 hits if 'you're doing it right'. I'm getting used to it, but distance closing attacks are still lacking.

[ReiganCross]

Y'know... There isn't all that much we can do for evasion in a game where most of my enemies are shooting me with speeding bullets. And i also love that you mentioned that "we can close the distance by blocking right now". Maybe you're one of the 7 people that actually use blocking still instead of just letting the pitiful enemy fire just blink off our shield like they're throwing spitballs at us, but we could block all the same before, you could bind the block in much similar ways like binding block to the Alt key or something, and it made as much sense back then as it does now (Except now block actually BLOCKS stuff, i guess that's improved.) But i'll admit, those are my weakest argument... Let me give you a better one.

 

You know what makes evasion suck? Fast movement. What is the use of an evasion move at all if i can move faster then i can roll? Especially if i can move at roll speed at any moment in any direction without the additional hassle of spending stamina, yes, because Rolling is actually slower then walking, much less sprinting (And when the hell aren't we sprinting in this game?) I can even control myself more precisely if i just walk to where i should be, so there is no chance of me over-shooting my target spot. The only thing stopping me from rolling speed walking is aiming, so if i'm to shoot from the hip which is perfectly accurate, then i have full movement. This is why most game have the roll be kind of jumpy and be abnormally long, because of the roll isn't at least twice as fast as walking (with a little pause after for overall speed compensation) then we might as well walk. And seriously, 100% of the situation in Warframe you'll prefer the faster and more controllable walk instead of an actual evasive roll. I will argue that evasion right now is actually 100% useless.

 

I will also argue something else. Much of the Melee planned in this 2.0 patch was though in a plane, instead of an actual place to be used. If we want to go Melee, we better stick to the ground, because if we try to do Melee mid-air then we'll pulled down to the ground so fast that we'll feel like the tenno is afraid of the air or something. This means that games like Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden that you used as an example cannot really be placed here, because they kept thinking the whole animation and machinations and balancing in a purely ground level. There is no Flying Swallow to be had in a purely ground based melee, and there is no throwing our enemy anywhere if all the enemy is meant to do is stay on the ground (except with the Kogake Sliding attack for some reason, those catapult a bastard across 2 maps if he gets a good shot.)

 

Bottom line, i'd say that before we attempt to make our melee be more then just bashing E with the speed of a pneumatic drill or making silly things like lock-on or z-targeting, we might want to consider breaking out melee from the 2D plane or having an actual EVASION MANEUVER instead of this silly roll. I think it can stay a Melee single-button fest until we figure out a way to stab cameras with our swords.

 

(Random topic, the roll right now kind of feels like a penalty for not doing certain jumps right. Like, you're jumping while you're still aiming? Here's a Penalty Roll! You're still pressing forward to move while you're jumping? Penalty Roll again! Seriously, try this, do a complete stationary jump then press hold down aim, for some reason your Tenno will roll forward like some sort of penalty because you didn't let go of the aim button on time. I even do it as training sometimes while waiting for someone in the elevator, looks really silly too.)

 

It's pretty sick that everything has to deal with mods now.

 

Also, i cannot lose the opportunity to pick this phrase alone to make a point i'm making since 3 updates ago... MOD 2.0 SUCKS!!

Edited May 16, 2014 by ReiganCross

[Casardis]

First of all, don't get me wrong with this wall of text Reigan. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just not sure of the reasoning stated below. For the rest, I pretty much agree with the criticism itself.

 

 This means that games like Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden that you used as an example cannot really be placed here, because they kept thinking the whole animation and machinations and balancing in a purely ground level. There is no Flying Swallow to be had in a purely ground based melee, and there is no throwing our enemy anywhere if all the enemy is meant to do is stay on the ground (except with the Kogake Sliding attack for some reason, those catapult a bastard across 2 maps if he gets a good shot.)

 

Bottom line, i'd say that before we attempt to make our melee be more then just bashing E with the speed of a pneumatic drill or making silly things like lock-on or z-targeting, we might want to consider breaking out melee from the 2D plane or having an actual EVASION MANEUVER instead of this silly roll. I think it can stay a Melee single-button fest until we figure out a way to stab cameras with our swords.

 

 

 

This part is the only part I'm a bit confused about.

 

For one thing, Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry play quite differently, despite both being great action beat em ups. There's much less juggle in Ninja Gaiden and less emphasis on combos, but more on dodging, timing and CC against all enemies, which is closer to what Warframe needs than DMC, so I'll focus on that.

 

Secondly, Flying Swallow in Ninja Gaiden isn't only in anti-air attack. In fact, most people use it on ground enemies, which makes 3/4 of the enemies in the game, if not more. Ryu's aerial attacks is to bring him advantage in the air with speed and agility over those that are stuck on the ground (like most enemies in Warframe). Additionally, Flying Swallow's most important aspect is from being both evasive maneuver and offensive attack. You can use it to close in target and CC across the map, while dealing damage, or you can use it as a means to create even more distance.

 

Third, there's more enemies that are either flying or unreachable with melee from the ground in Warframe than in Ninja Gaiden (drones, cameras, arc traps, door traps, Hellions, Hek, Lephantis, etc), yet we don't have an official maneuver to deal against them, not even a  simple aerial jump attack that isn't a ground slam.

 

Next, your last point doesn't make too much sense to me, especially considering what OP already suggested. On one hand, you're "against" making Melee 2.0 with "silly" things like a lock-on or Flying Swallow before we have proper evasive maneuvers yet, or ways to attack cameras. On the other hand, you only want melee to go further after it's gained the ability to do things like hitting cameras... That sounds a bit like a contradiction.

 

A lock-on, coupled with a proper jump attack and with the ability to Flying Swallow, you'll be able to target cameras and dash towards them in the air to destroy them. With Flying Swallow, as I stated above, you'll be able to "fly" from one enemy to another as a means of evasion while dealing quick, single blows that are faster than the silly roll. With Flying Swallow and lock on, you'll be able to hit drones properly instead of looking like an idiot swinging your sword in the air 5 times before hitting it.

 

Also, you don't really need attacks that makes you float like in DMC for it to work, which is why I prefer using NG as an example. Ryu Hayabusa never stays in the air for TOO long between attacks (unless he's doing Izuna Drop). His regular jump actually gives him LESS air time than a Tenno. Also, in Dragon's Dogma, the jump height and length is approximately the same and they can still achieve regular jump attacks that can give a "pop shot" on an enemy while using the jump momentum to move forward, followed by a roll after the attack. It can also hit flying enemies.

 

Here's an example of such pop shots with a jump attack:

http://youtu.be/EZaN6LiCMEo?t=1m36s

 

So what exactly is your argument? You talk about needing evasive maneuvers, but OP suggested at least one evasive maneuvers that can accomplish. If your argument was simply to overhaul the current dodge system, then I'm fine with that and I agree that it should be done, but that has nothing to do with hitting cameras, which OP suggestion fills the role much more.

 

 

I'll go back again with Ninja Gaiden in the case of dodge maneuvers, as a suggestion. In NG, Furious Wind and Reverse Wind, which is the main dodge move in the game, is used for many things:

- Regular Dodging

- Closing in distance from enemies dodging away/running away/far from your reach

- Give slight invincibility frame

- Cancel your attack animation delay a bit sooner

- Dodge after getting guard break

- Can be used in all direction followed by quick attacks or a jump maneuver/Flying Swallow

 

A simple dodge done right allows it to be used in many ways, and in NG where you're dealing mostly with ranged enemies, you have even more abilities to close in targets than in Warframe, where the majority are ranged enemies AND constantly running away from you like idiots. A simple change to the dodge so it's not a role, but a quick dash with similar function as in NG will allow much more potential for melee, and even combos/keeping your combo string. The short invincibility frames will also be useful against those auto-aim hitscan weapons.

 

One last thing, one reason in NG, Ryu doesn't even have to do much running to get into the right range is because Ryu's constantly bringing enemies to his pace by pushing them back a lot, with each successful strike. He can use that to single out enemies, or to bring an enemy to a group/closer to another so he can then Reverse Wind to another enemy and continue his combo/CC, all of that while staying on the ground.

 

You can see that right at the beginning of this video how swiftly and smoothly he does it, and also notice how a soft lock-on allows him to actually hit the enemy the player's targeting without having to actually lock on.

 

In Warframe, enemies don't move to our pace even if we do an attack like the Swirling Tiger combo, which sends us forward a lot. All that will happen is you'll hit with the first initial combo, but your last hit will slide pass through the enemy right in front of your face, instead of bringing the enemy with you and push it back so all hits connect (while hitting those behind and sending them flying with the last knockdown hit).

 

Additionally, as Calayne said, the lock on is flawed, and taking Swirling Tiger again as an example, if you have lock-on, you'll "stick" to the target and its animations instead of bringing them to your forward momentum. In fact, you'll lose the forward dash of the Swirling Tiger for the sake of actually hitting the enemy, if you're "lock on" properly, because the enemy doesn't move.

 

So for the lock on system to work, we need the physics to act differently and enemies to react to our momentum, and not the opposite (which is what's happening now). For that to continue being useful, we need a proper dodge maneuver to cancel our attacks and allow us to actually dodge at faster speed than our running, also allowing us to close in at Grineer running away/too far from our regular reach, without having to do a combo in the air. And for all of that to work together and be able to "Sword Alone" as promoted a while back, we also need jump attacks and air evasive maneuvers in the form of Flying Swallow-esque attacks so we can deal with currently unreachable enemies, or so we gain advantage through agility/speed.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Casardis

[ReiganCross]

Ok, i'll admit something... It's actually pretty hard to argue that point. I swear i have a point, but i might have not made it very clear because i'm not sure i can make it clear. So, in order to attempt to explain myself i'll attempt to isolate 2 points. The fact that i think that target lock-on is kind of silly in Warframe, and the fact that flying swallow is not exactly a great aerial attack improvement.

 

Let's start by the fact that i think that things like lock-on wouldn't work in Warframe. OP argued this himself, the enemies don't last long enough, manual lock on would not work. Ok, then he suggested a stronger lock-on system, except he forgot to factor in that most problems with the lock-on system was latency compensation problems, like the fact that you usually attack where the enemy USED to be when he's moving and therefore look like an idiot attacking the air when attempting to fight a moving enemy (not even a fast movement, more like a jogging speed or slow speed, any speed that would make him not be where he was 1 second ago)

If what he meant by tighter auto lock-on controls is that the Tenno should actually be a little bit magnetized towards his target so he can actually hit him, then i guess yes, i agree. But if he meant that we just have our cameras locked by whatever was in front of it, then i believe it will just cause us to have an un-natural feeling camera that keeps on jumping between target depending on how fast we move it, it would seriously feel a lot more sticky. The camera right now is set primarily for a 3rd person shooter, not slasher.

And there is also the fact that all of those arguments are only though about in the 2D plane. If the enemy i'm aiming is over a frigging box, then there is no movement compensation upwards so i can hit stuff on top of a box. There is also no angled attack, at all, because adding any sort of level in the Melee 2.0 discussion would STILL make Melee 2.0 pretty much useless. (I guess DE never could defeat the all powerful boxes.) This is where i say that Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry cannot work here in Warframe. In Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry, we mostly count with open spaces, have a staircase and some boxes in those games and it becomes an obstacle, the level design is simplified so we can cut stuff more. (Case in point, this awesome video you showed) This is not the case in Warframe and locking unto an aerial target wouldn't help my Tenno to attempt to stab forward at an enemy sitting directly on top of his head, pretty much doing a silly dance. And again, a tenno attempting to stab someone sitting on top of a box would cause my tenno to attempt to stab a box like he couldn't devise the tactic of stabbing slightly upwards.

 

This will drive me into the next section. Isn't a Flying Swallow just a ground slam with a directional deviation? If you're thinking of a flying Swallow that actually locks on target (again, with what would be some jittery camera controls) then you're thinking more of a Sonic's Homing Attack then Ryu's legendary physics defying energy airdash (which would probably be made into a Warframe power someday)

And then again there's the problem of it only being a ground-level targeting enemies. Even if you're making aerial enemies being targeted in the path of the "swallow" and have it make no actual lock-on direction because you can assume we can aim or own attacks, then you'd just suggesting yet another way for air combat to be stuck back on ground level. Yes you'd be hurting stuff on the way, all nice and all, but we would only be stuck back at ground level, i agree it's an improvement but it isn't enough to make all that much of a difference. You want to hit the air, start calling for Air Melee 2.0 or something.

 

So this is what i mean by those critiques. Flying Swallow Attack would just make it into yet another ground slam attack to magnetize us against the 2D plane, and target lock-on doesn't seem quite like the solution for allowing us to punch sensor bars in the face or defeat the almighty Boxfort.

(And apparently you understood perfectly my complains about the evasive maneuver, so there is really no reason to comment on that.)

[Casardis]

Looks like you don't know what Flying Swallow is. That's Ryu's diagonal airdash light speed attack while in the air, do able only if there is an enemy close to soft lock on it. The player does it several times in the video. That's why it got its name flying swallow.

So yes, it's akin to Sonic's homing attack. Now we're on the same page xD. Also there are staircases in NG, and yoy can properly fight on it because if the attack momentum and hitboxes, along with proper maneuvers like Reverse Wind.

If you follow the logic of flying swallow in NG with a lock on system, it will work. Also, im not arguing about aerial combat, only attacks and that can hit flying enemies or target them. We don't need an aerial combat 2.0 when most enemies are on the ground anyway, so my suggestions is simply to give us more in our arsenal to make melee actually better rounded.

I'm not sure what TC suggest exactly with the lock on, but Im talking about a similar one to NG where there is a slight magnetism.

That's why a reasonable lock on + flying swallow (homing attack) will allow us to gain advantage, to give us maneuvers and allow us to overcome cameras and boxes. Also, regular jump attacks ALONG with flying swallow together, like in NG, can help even better.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Casardis

[ReiganCross]

If you're suggesting just a pure Slight Magnetism and then all in for that. We do need some sort of sliding towards our enemy, it's not like our feet animation is so bad that we're not skating around the whole place anyways, so might as well skate 0,5m closer to an enemy so we can actually hit them. Yeah, this would be useful.

 

About the whole Homing Attack and soft targeting, i don't think it would improve all that much. Sure it would give us another way to approach them, but we got Spinning Slash Dash for that. I don't know about you but all my openings with the Melee out is a Spinning Slash Dash, into generic combo, into Spinning Slash Dash. And technically Spinning Slash Dash can hit aerial enemies so you could make a case that we have aerial combat 1.0, it is just awful. I suggest we have some form of air stabbing, like a stab we can direct with our cameras that stab up or down or sideways while in the air, so we can more easily hit aerial targets with it. I'm not asking for us to be floating in the air like Dante's machinegun pistols, i'm just asking that i can punch a camera in the face. Maybe a slight aerial magnetism could help that too?

 

And we seriously need to evade from all the ground melee we have. We can't be on par with NG or DMC if we keep on using such awesome things like varied level design instead of just open arenas with pretty skyboxes.

[Casardis]

Spin attack isn't reliable because of how wonky enemy AI are. Also, using that to dodge or close in is just as clumsy as doing spin attack to hit aerial enemies, and it depends on weapons. And for openings, I'm talking about those mid combos of certain weapons. Ever tried Crushing Ruin hammer stance? It's borderline unplayable.

I've played a lot of NG and trust me, it will help in Warframe if done correctly, and will also make closing distance properly and easier, enhance agility, and make us feel more overwhelming to the enemies with our moves alone.

And punching a camera in the face is what I meant with regular jump attacks, as shown in Dragon's Dogma video.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Casardis

[ReiganCross]

Yup... I guess we're pretty much in the same page here then... This only means one thing.

 

DE, say something already!!

[IfritKajiTora]

videos of good fights: 

Good timing attacks and dodges improves you to be like a Ninja, looking for weak spot than can kill with one hit:

Enemy wanted to catch him for a very strong attack (red aura), player evaded this attack and have a chance to make finishing move

[ReiganCross]

Even some Music lessons, yeah! Wait, nvm, those were editted in...

Edited May 16, 2014 by ReiganCross

[Vanadium]

videos of good fights: 

Good timing attacks and dodges improves you to be like a Ninja, looking for weak spot than can kill with one hit:

Enemy wanted to catch him for a very strong attack (red aura), player evaded this attack and have a chance to make finishing move

God, if this game was like Ninja Gaiden in space...I don't think I'd play any other game ever (maybe).

 

The problem I keep running into with the auto-targeting is that it stops me at "optimal" range from the bad guys, like Casardis was saying. Half of the time, this is fine and works, but the rest of the time I'll end up hitting the space where they were because they start backpedaling. It also breaks my sprint every time I get close and attack, which makes it difficult to dash 'n slash (not related to Slash Dash) through a group. Now I keep the auto-targeting off and most of time the game is better without, but sometimes (like fighting heavies), I miss the auto-targeting (I usually attack past them after a few swings). I would appreciate an optional hard targeting in the game, even if it would only be useful in high level content.

 

I agree that the Stamina 1.0 is killing Melee 2.0. I kind of want to say get rid of it. We're stimmed up, nanite injected, magical, space ninjas in the future, so what is stamina? But I guess melee needs its balance (or something). Right now I have to slot Rush, Marathon, and Quick Rest on Loki to make melee sustainable. It works real well, but that's 3/6 slots taken up.

[ReiganCross]

Yes, this is why i think we can all agree what a little magnetism towards the target when you hit melee would be perfect to solve the situation. "Oh, but it would look like i'm skating like the ground is made of butter" well, guess what, when you aim your weapon without moving, your whole frame also skates around in place, so this isn't really a problem.

 

I guess the debate would be how MUCH to skate us towards the target and how to inform us of what target we're hitting. It's obvious "clever camera angles" would never work in a game where the camera is also the aim sights of our gun and most of our power. Should we use a little target reticule on top of the enemies we're about to engage? Maybe have our target be highlighted by a faint aura around them, a barely visible aura that would be just enough for us player to know what exactly are we slashing at, just call it "Tenno Instinct" or something.

 

And i'v never really felt like Stamina was holding melee back, mainly because i don't actually block stuff. Like i said, my playstyle is Spinning Slash Dash, combos, Spinning Slash Dash. So i don't know how grave is the whole Stamina thing into not being able to do a dodge roll is (And i won't ever know how grave it will be because, like i said above, the Dodge Roll sucks.)

[Casardis]

And i'v never really felt like Stamina was holding melee back, mainly because i don't actually block stuff. Like i said, my playstyle is Spinning Slash Dash, combos, Spinning Slash Dash. So i don't know how grave is the whole Stamina thing into not being able to do a dodge roll is (And i won't ever know how grave it will be because, like i said above, the Dodge Roll sucks.)

 

It's very grave due to enemy being able to do heavy damage at you with hitscan and auto-aim precision at higher levels. It's especially important when considering some of the following elements:

- When you're not a Warframe that's decent for melee, such as Rhino, Excalibur, Ash, Loki, Saryn, Trinity, Valkyr and possibly a few others.

- When you're not using a fast weapon, since heavy weapon combos AND spin attacks are way too slow to actually do the maneuver you're doing

- When you're having both of the above issues

- When you think about how blocking is supposed to be a core mechanic of melee 2.0, still needing a lot of work.

 

And the reason you've never felt there's an issue with stamina is not just because of your playstyle, but precisely because of what you mentioned: dodging sucks, so why is it? Blocking takes too much stamina, so why bother even using it?. Assuming you're maining Ash, you move fast, you can go invisible, and when in trouble, you can do Bladestorm. Unfortunately not all Frames have such luxury, but whether they have it or not doesn't matter too much because... why would you be blocking if it restricts your movements in a way, while being absolutely ineffective at higher level?

 

The stronger an attack, the more stamina you'll lose for each hit. Like I said in my first post, a lvl 30+ Elite Lancer will eat through your base stamina in one or two burst of his Hind. That's ridiculous since it's pretty much your sure way of defense, especially in a crowd. Coupled with all the things we've said above.

 

Some frames don't need blocking at all since they're innately good with melee, and some weapons allow for fast combos/movements so you don't need to do much blocking either. However, in some situations, and with some frames, it'd be good if one of the selling point of Melee 2.0, its blocking system, would actually work in their favor, but it doesn't.

 

So it's good that you're able to find your own workarounds, especially since I pretty much do the same when I have weapons such as Scoliac.

 

Even so, not everyone can, nor should they, do that, and such workarounds, just like the aerial spin attack as the workaround for "air attack," look and feel clumsy in more ways than one. It's as if we have to do these stuff due to a flawed system, instead of expanding the possibilities of a solid system.

 

In that sense, we're also giving feedback on the stamina system so it doesn't hold its own potential back.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Casardis

[IfritKajiTora]

Waiting for Melee 3.0
When in game character is using Fists or some cutting weapons I always testing fighting mechanic, is this good or not, its very hard to find something really good. In warframe for now is maded like as a mini game 2-3 combos for every weapons not much cancels, preety bad channeling that drains a lot of energy, jump attack, spin attack, finishers when someone is on the ground, stealth attacks. Rollings that should be a dash when wearing a melee weapon and guard.

These easy combos and hits should be maded somehow to thing when to use what, like improving enemies AI to dodge, block and attack with back dashing.
In game series Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm there is Jutsu, ultimate jutsu,grabs,  tilt combos/attacks, chakra dash, dodges,substitution (teleports), shurikens, Air combo and 3-4 combos on the ground where is only a difference of animations and ending hit that push far away enemy, hit him to the ground and push into air.
And the fighting mechanic is great as fu**. Added some cancels to game and they are adding even more cancels to give players more freely feelings
 
Comparing Warframe to Naruto UNS games
Shurikens - primary and secondary weapons
Jutsu - warframe skills
Ultimate jutsu - 4th skill with a difference that in Naruto UNS you need to hit enemy to make Ultimate skill
Tilt attacks/combos - Slide
Air combo - air slide but not at all, jump attack even not fit to it.
Combos - just combos like in game but there should be more of them and longer, To the ground is in game, push back no, and push to air is missing.
dodges - rollings left, right but this should be edited to dashes
chakra dash - rollings forward but this should be edited to dash
Substitutions - Not in game, it is just a dodging combos when you are actually getting hit, but not for free.
grabs - missing in game just like charge attack which ignore opponents guard, It could be added to warframe too as those finisher attacks.
Cancels - not in Warframe at all.

Example video from Naruto game: 

adding some of these things, could so much improve melee in warframe
  Edited May 17, 2014 by IfritKajiTora

[Hirosaki_FireHeart]

 I know I had made some harsh comments about ML 2.0, however I figured it all out and thus far have no complaints other than the stance cards I want/need are insanely hard to obtain. I know who drops them they just.....dont. 

[Casardis]

 I know I had made some harsh comments about ML 2.0, however I figured it all out and thus far have no complaints other than the stance cards I want/need are insanely hard to obtain. I know who drops them they just.....dont. 

 

Unfortunately that's more about DE's drop table/chance than Melee 2.0 XD

[ReiganCross]

And what he means is that there is probable more PROBLEMS with Melee 2.0 then just some Stances being hard to find, which is actually a non-issue if you spend a month or 2 to acquire all of them. Hell, i'll even argue that it actually gives you something to do, which is always a plus.

 

If that's not what you man, Casar, then sorry for missing the point.

[Casardis]

And what he means is that there is probable more PROBLEMS with Melee 2.0 then just some Stances being hard to find, which is actually a non-issue if you spend a month or 2 to acquire all of them. Hell, i'll even argue that it actually gives you something to do, which is always a plus.

 

If that's not what you man, Casar, then sorry for missing the point.

 

No worries, that's exactly what I meant, though your comment does bring some concerns I have. I'll make a separate topic about it, since it's a smaller issue.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Casardis

[Casardis]

It just occurred to me. Something about mobility.

 

http://youtu.be/CJbgkl1OnP0?t=20m36s

 

The first combo shown for the Scindo/Greatsword stance, which became Rending Crane, was actually much more useful than what we have right now, because it brought the Tenno forward much more, with good attacks being executed quite early. What happened to that?

 

Upon closer inspection, this animation set has been separated into two to become the two combos of Rending Crane, which both ended up really mediocre due to all mobility and heavy weapons problems. This is kind of sad to me.

 

At least, from what I've seen of Steve's twitter, closing gaps is one priority to work on for Melee 2.0. I just hope jump attacks are under the scope as well. One doesn't simply say "Sword Alone" and then make us unable to properly destroy cameras with melee.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Casardis

[ReiganCross]

What's the honest point of a combo that moves you forward if it's going to make you pointlessly slash the air a few times before throwing you forward? We've touched upon this, if i want to dash towards something it better be the first thing i do, like Dante's Stinger. The only reason i'd want a dash is if it followed a big push back of the target.

[Casardis]

Yes of course. I was just pointing out how they kind of had something with the heavy melee, but even removed that. That's all.