Loki: The Manipulator He Should Be

[Sixty5]

Before I start, let me say that being invisible 90% of the game is the same thing as blowing 90% of the enemies up in a room with one button. It just takes longer.

 

With that said, Loki is NOT a manipulator right now. Decoy is pitiful, Invisibility is what *most* people use, Switch Teleport is laughable at best, and Radial Disarm is what the Team Player Loki uses only.

 

Now, you can tell me Loki is fun to play, and I'll agree. I'm part of a Loki oriented clan and let me tell you we love Loki with a passion. But he, in his current state, is what people will go to for invincibility after Trinity is "fixed". (Read the workshop post for info on that)

 

He should really thrive on manipulation, and as a player who uses Loki, I can tell you it's both difficult to utilize Decoy and Switch Teleport, and to actually get rid of the overflowing amount of energy you seemingly can never rid yourself of. With that said, here comes the sun.

 

 

Decoy: Decoy needs to live longer, anyone past Mercury can tell you that. I'll leave the discussion of how lively it should be up to the people in charge. But it should also be a way to get rid of energy, a totem, and very spammable. It should not be limited to one decoy per Loki, it should be limited at 10 if not 20. Loki should be able to place scratching posts for the tons of infected, or effectively wall off the pod for large amounts of energy with Decoy. It's manipulation, right? Vauban does it better with Bastille, so we need SOME edge.

 

Invisibility: Being able to run around invisible for an entire game is just a tad broken. More so if you consider the fact that you can fire off an automatic weapon the entire time and still remain undetected. Therefore I propose that Invisibility is based on a stealth counter. While it is up certain actions will reduce your stealth level, and once this reaches a certain point invisibility breaks. Things like reviving or activating objectives have a low impact on your stealth, meleeing enemies or shooting with a silent weapon have a slightly larger one, and going Rambo with your Soma will quickly break your stealth.

In addition, being near a decoy will increase the threshold of invisibility breaking, as enemies mistake your actions for the decoys

 

Switch Teleport: This is a highly underused skill, and it lacks in a lot of combat utility. My suggestion here is to change it so that for a few seconds after the skill has been completed, Loki is seen as the entity he teleported with and vise versa. This would not occur if swapping places with a decoy.

Basically, this change would let you have an entire enemy squad shoot themselves to bits with rapid teleports.

It has a few parallels with Nyx's chaos, but does not impinge on the same territory as Switch Teleport would be limited to one target at a time, with a short duration, and since it is mainly intended as protection in the second after completion as the animations finish. In addition it offers more teamwork opportunities as an invisible Loki can teleport a team mate into a vantage point and grant them a few seconds of invisibility in which to cause havock.

 

Radial Disarm: This ability is pretty damn good, and the only tweaks for it I'd suggest is a reduction in base range, but allow each decoy placed to cast it as well. Doing this would destroy the decoy in the process.

This aims at giving Loki the ability to safely disarm foes at any range, and aims to make Disarm a tactical ability, rather than a brute force one. Though with the ability to place multiple decoys, for an additional cost, you will be able to decimate everything on the maps ability to fight.

 

 

All in all these changes are aimed at making Loki a more diverse frame, as well as bringing him back to his intended role as a master of manipulation. 

[VoidPunch]

I haven't played Loki in a while so I'm not sure on how to change him but from what I remember...

 

I think having the enemy still shoot at where you switched from, i.e. shoot their comrade rather then you instead of automatically knowing you are now right next to them. Or having the enemies stunned when you switch teleport, because lets face it, if your buddy just turned into an enemy you are going to get startled. Either of these would switch teleport better.

 

An Decoy just needs a complete overhaul or different skill, molt is all around better. The only thing decoy has over molt is the ability to place it at a range so this skill needs work.

 

considering I haven't used him in that long and these still stand out as problems, I'd say he definitely needs love in these departments. just my 2 cents. I agree with you.

Edited May 12, 2014 by HandsOfnArtist

[Dogoframe]

After I did some work on my Loki to go for the best possible (in my case) Radial Disarm, I found that I much prefer not having the clutch of perma-invisibility.

 

Then it dawned on me that the gaming platform I am most familiar with has a nice way to make Invisibility viable, balanced and useful at all levels of challenge: You leave Invisibility as soon as you attack or perform a hostile action.

[Vannell]

Make Invisibility wear off when the player does any action and get tons of complains. Or make it shorter *haha*

[dragonkingdx]

After I did some work on my Loki to go for the best possible (in my case) Radial Disarm, I found that I much prefer not having the clutch of perma-invisibility.

 

Then it dawned on me that the gaming platform I am most familiar with has a nice way to make Invisibility viable, balanced and useful at all levels of challenge: You leave Invisibility as soon as you attack or perform a hostile action.

 

 

Make Invisibility wear off when the player does any action and get tons of complains. Or make it shorter *haha*

 

If that happens people are gonna go right for ashes invisibility. I like the idea of a limit on what you can do in invisibility. Though thinking putting a kill limit before opponents notice you would be better IMO. Such as 5-10-15. You would have duration to increase the time you have when invis and a limit so its not kill 40-50 during that period and then re do it.

 

Though I pretty much agree that loki needs some nerf on him since its in the same place as the 1 button spamming of other warframes.

Edited May 12, 2014 by dragonkingdx

[SquirmyBurrito]

I don't like the invisibility changes primarily because it eliminates most of its combat usability. Although, I would agree to the change as long as Ash had his Smoke Screen changed to the same way.

[dragonkingdx]

I don't like the invisibility changes primarily because it eliminates most of its combat usability. Although, I would agree to the change as long as Ash had his Smoke Screen changed to the same way.

 

Actually changing invisibility helps overall. Loki is just another single skill spamming warframe. Similar how trinity spammed invincibility, frost spammed SG (not the best example), nova spamming MP etc. Changing the skills makes you rely on other abilities instead of loki users just spamming invis like the typical 1 trick pony warframe players. Making all skills more viable helps rather than just instantly going for an invis killing streak. Better balance of the skills helps overall

Edited May 12, 2014 by dragonkingdx

[SquirmyBurrito]

Actually changing invisibility helps overall. Loki is just another single skill spamming warframe. Similar how trinity spammed invincibility, frost spammed SG (not the best example), nova spamming MP etc. Changing the skills makes you rely on other abilities instead of loki users just spamming invis like the typical 1 trick pony warframe players.

 

Loki is only a single skill spammer if the user decides to be. I regularly use Radial Disarm and I use Decoy to by bits of time (not much but still). He can't be a one-trick pony as he has two amazing skills. Nerfing one of his skills (by itself) does not 'help' Loki. What helps him here are the changes to his other skills. These proposals are three buffs and one massive nerf. If that massive nerf is not also applied to Smoke Screen all the invisibility spammers will simply abandon ship and move to perma smoke screen builds.

[dragonkingdx]

Loki is only a single skill spammer if the user decides to be. I regularly use Radial Disarm and I use Decoy to by bits of time (not much but still). He can't be a one-trick pony as he has two amazing skills. Nerfing one of his skills (by itself) does not 'help' Loki. What helps him here are the changes to his other skills. These proposals are three buffs and one massive nerf. If that massive nerf is not also applied to Smoke Screen all the invisibility spammers will simply abandon ship and move to perma smoke screen builds.

 

Yeah 1 trick pony means a skill(2 skills in trinity's case) that is used so much that others do not compare in uses. With nova AMD was extremely useful yet people overwhelmingly preferred to spam MP. Some did use both and used it properly but because MP was spammed so much it makes all of other nova's skills less used. Same with trinity with its link/blessing. Although that was more of a nerf to get rid of perm invincibility its change brought balance among its skills. So those other 2 skills had some use more so than what was overwhelmingly preferred. Frost was only really used for SG before, yet they nerfed SG and buffed avalanche/ice skills slightly.

 

Although RD is the next best skill its not used nearly as much as invisibility is. Ash had received more balance with shuriken/blade storm (bladestorm being helpful but ineffective and more seldomly used) Tweaks made effecting invisibility would have to offset with other skills. IE buff for debuff. Keeping invis the entire time is just as bad as being invincible the entire time. (as the second it wears off people just cast it again and go tralalalalala death to all who oppose) This is what people tend to use more so than anything else and indeed warrants a problem as its not balanced properly.

[xlraistlx]

I recently read a idea that I'm in love with.

 

To make Decoy explote on the death causing a radiation proc on nearby enemies. This would eliminate the (very) low suvivability it has.

[Dogoframe]

If that happens people are gonna go right for ashes invisibility.

 

Though I pretty much agree that loki needs some nerf on him since its in the same place as the 1 button spamming of other warframes.

 

I meant Invisibility more as a "spell", was thinking D&D there. It may also be a biased suggestion as I have been playing Ash and Loki pretty much like they have the D&D spell, cast it for that oops moment when I need to get the hells out, or for sneaking past enemies.

 

Edit: Also, post above. Decoy doing something AoE after expiring would be sweet, and I would gladly trade perma-invisibility for it.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Dogoframe

[CosyPigeon]

I approve of most of these changes, however the change to invisibility would be reliant on other game play mechanics being fixed first (namely getting stealth up to scratch).

Also, the teleport targeting mechanics for this game could use an overhaul, as they currently don't work very well if there is any minor obstruction in the way (if I had a penny for every time my teleport had been foiled by a guard rail...)

Good ideas OP. 

[Vaskadar]

Actually, all of these suggestions are excellent. I was most intrigued by the Switch Teleport change.

 

The only thing I can suggest for decoy is to reduce its active duration and allow enemies to shoot through it, OR... scale its health directly with the player's shields and health.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Vaskadar

[SquirmyBurrito]

Actually, all of these suggestions are excellent. I was most intrigued by the Switch Teleport change.

 

The only thing I can suggest for decoy is to reduce its active duration and allow enemies to shoot through it, OR... scale its health directly with the player's shields and health.

 

They could always just make decoy duration based and lower its base duration.

[Toxinkiller]

Maybe remove duration time for decoy and make decoy like tenno specters

[fatpig84]

When I read your suggestion about decoy and radial disarm....

 

 

*Slow clap*

That is powerful !

Remotely disarming will be epic and more than enough to cover any range nerfs.

[shut]

Make Invisibility wear off when the player does any action and get tons of complains. Or make it shorter *haha*

 

I think a better change would be for enemies to blindly fire in the general direction of any loud noises that they hear from a cloaked Loki. So silent weapons would have more or less the same effect that they do now, but loud blasts would attract attention and enemy gunfire (and can cause them to shoot in a desired direction, so you can sneak around and silently shank them from behind as they deal zero damage to anything).

 

Causing noises to break Invisibility entirely (especially in a game where the one main thing you can do is kill stuff, usually very loudly) seems a bit harsh. I'd rather it just attract unwanted attention instead.

[KittyDarkling]

I think a better change would be for enemies to blindly fire in the general direction of any loud noises that they hear from a cloaked Loki. So silent weapons would have more or less the same effect that they do now, but loud blasts would attract attention and enemy gunfire (and can cause them to shoot in a desired direction, so you can sneak around and silently shank them from behind as they deal zero damage to anything).

 

Causing noises to break Invisibility entirely (especially in a game where the one main thing you can do is kill stuff, usually very loudly) seems a bit harsh. I'd rather it just attract unwanted attention instead.

 

    Not gonna mention the ol' barrel portion of switch teleport? x3 Anyway, YES I agree with Sorta's method of soft nerfing invisibility. It would make sense that they act pretty much like they do for Excal's radial blind. if they hear a loud noise they shoot at it!!

 

    Also to be perfectly honest, all I care about is his switch teleport being given that momentary chaos-like ability where they make everyone who was shooting Loki, shoot the poor sap who he switched with!

 

Currently I can use decoy effectivly

Currently I can use invisibility without breaking the game (gasp)

Cur... okay well radial disarm is kinda useless sometimes (infested) but how funny is it when it works? :D

 

so yeah, DE? Please? a true switch teleport? you buffed ash's teleport.. please buff Loki's too? Please???? D:

[Dalu__Ka]

And give Radial Disarm a timed duration.

[Insanityman]

 

Before I start, let me say that being invisible 90% of the game is the same thing as blowing 90% of the enemies up in a room with one button. It just takes longer.

 

With that said, Loki is NOT a manipulator right now. Decoy is pitiful, Invisibility is what *most* people use, Switch Teleport is laughable at best, and Radial Disarm is what the Team Player Loki uses only.

 

Now, you can tell me Loki is fun to play, and I'll agree. I'm part of a Loki oriented clan and let me tell you we love Loki with a passion. But he, in his current state, is what people will go to for invincibility after Trinity is "fixed". (Read the workshop post for info on that)

 

He should really thrive on manipulation, and as a player who uses Loki, I can tell you it's both difficult to utilize Decoy and Switch Teleport, and to actually get rid of the overflowing amount of energy you seemingly can never rid yourself of. With that said, here comes the sun.

 

 

Decoy: Decoy needs to live longer, anyone past Mercury can tell you that. I'll leave the discussion of how lively it should be up to the people in charge. But it should also be a way to get rid of energy, a totem, and very spammable. It should not be limited to one decoy per Loki, it should be limited at 10 if not 20. Loki should be able to place scratching posts for the tons of infected, or effectively wall off the pod for large amounts of energy with Decoy. It's manipulation, right? Vauban does it better with Bastille, so we need SOME edge.

 

Invisibility: Being able to run around invisible for an entire game is just a tad broken. More so if you consider the fact that you can fire off an automatic weapon the entire time and still remain undetected. Therefore I propose that Invisibility is based on a stealth counter. While it is up certain actions will reduce your stealth level, and once this reaches a certain point invisibility breaks. Things like reviving or activating objectives have a low impact on your stealth, meleeing enemies or shooting with a silent weapon have a slightly larger one, and going Rambo with your Soma will quickly break your stealth.

In addition, being near a decoy will increase the threshold of invisibility breaking, as enemies mistake your actions for the decoys

 

Switch Teleport: This is a highly underused skill, and it lacks in a lot of combat utility. My suggestion here is to change it so that for a few seconds after the skill has been completed, Loki is seen as the entity he teleported with and vise versa. This would not occur if swapping places with a decoy.

Basically, this change would let you have an entire enemy squad shoot themselves to bits with rapid teleports.

It has a few parallels with Nyx's chaos, but does not impinge on the same territory as Switch Teleport would be limited to one target at a time, with a short duration, and since it is mainly intended as protection in the second after completion as the animations finish. In addition it offers more teamwork opportunities as an invisible Loki can teleport a team mate into a vantage point and grant them a few seconds of invisibility in which to cause havock.

 

Radial Disarm: This ability is pretty damn good, and the only tweaks for it I'd suggest is a reduction in base range, but allow each decoy placed to cast it as well. Doing this would destroy the decoy in the process.

This aims at giving Loki the ability to safely disarm foes at any range, and aims to make Disarm a tactical ability, rather than a brute force one. Though with the ability to place multiple decoys, for an additional cost, you will be able to decimate everything on the maps ability to fight.

 

 

All in all these changes are aimed at making Loki a more diverse frame, as well as bringing him back to his intended role as a master of manipulation. 

 

 

+1

 

More Decoys would be nice, but I could live with 3 or 4.  10+ would be nothing but trolling allies with walls of things they can't shoot through and an unending sonata of Lato-pops.  My take is that Decoy should be more timer based, and based on enemy intelligence.  How long are they going to beat on something until they realize its a hologram? (Or is the Decoy tangible? Does it feel like armor when a charger tries to bite it?)  If they shoot at it, they can't feel it, so it should take longer for them to come to the conclusion that they've been had.  Also, I'm in favor of it affecting different enemy types in different ways. : MOAs are just computers with guns, they might be affected longer than a crewman who can reason for himself.  Grineer are failing clones, and probably not as smart as corpus.  Like the present day decoy, longevity is based on how well you place it.

 

Invisibility: Permanent invisible lawnmower mode, while fun, definitely needs to be brought in line.  That said, the changes in this case reflect more on how the enemy responds to invisibility and not so much on the ability itself.  I like the proposed changes to create more of "invisibility ASSISTS stealth" as opposed to "invisibility is almost god-mode".  The enemies need more tools in their kits to deal with an invisible enemy. Maybe not a full-on canceling of it, but some sort meaningful (and counterable) way to undo the cheesefest that is the Loki+Dakra+Impunity blender.  Give Seekers and Grineer Commanders laser targeters on their weapons; if the Loki runs through it, they glow and show up briefly, suddenly the enemy behavior changes to reflect this. Let the corpus deploy drones in response to someone suddenly being reduced to giblets, little acoustic or echolocation gnats ospreys that can give a rough area of where the assassin might be standing.  It gives some measure for the enemy to counter us, without completely ruining stealth.  It isn't a complete fix, but it's a start and I'd like to test it.  Using invisibility in a 40 person firefight might not result in god-mode, perhaps simply reduced threat as the enemies tunnel vision the easier threats like that grumpy rhino over there.  

 

No beefs with your ST suggestions :D . (OOH, just had a funny thought! Can we change ST so they teleport without their armor? Bombards running around in their skivvies would be priceless. Also, gives us a way to deal with obnoxiously high armor XD )DEATH BY EMBARRASSMENT!

also, Yuikami would probably murder me for putting Vor on display in this manner hehehehe.

 

Radial Disarm: deploying this from a decoy sounds like fun!  Just not from every decoy, perhaps the only the one we have our crosshairs nearest to?  Yes it needs a slight reduction in power, but a reduced range just means we would ST around and pop it a few more times (or decoy the crap outta the arena).  

 

I'd like to test a change where power strength affected the number of enemies that could be disarmed in one go.  Long range makes sense, but only if you can't steal every gun on the map.  Have the script prioritize heavy weapons (napalms, gorgons, miters, supras, flux rifles) first, then grunt guns?  As power strength becomes more necessary, it reduces some of the cheese of other builds (for a balanced Loki), bringing it more in line.  Duration doesn't make sense, as most Loki's are already going to be stacking it anyway (not to mention fluff-wise, with the powers provided to him, we can only assume that Loki forcibly teleports the enemy weapons out of the map permanently a-la mass small scale switch teleports. If we go with this theory, duration is out of place.)  It also adds back in a proper negative side of  a corrupted mod (I really don't like the idea that some of these can be used with no down side whatsoever).

 

While I think a Loki change is needed, I do believe there are bigger fish to fry (yes you can clear a room invisible, but at least it takes time and effort compared to pressing 4 to win), but when the changes happen, we need the right changes, not a knee-jerk reaction.

 

Good topic, lets get this right!

Edited May 13, 2014 by Insanityman

[LukeAura]

I like all the changes. 
Especially making Loki based around Decoy instead of Disarm or invis.

Based off of your changes though I would say tweak it like this.
Decoys activate mini effects of Loki's other abilities. When you Switch Teleport, Decoys temporarily make the nearest enemy appear like a decoy. Radial Disarm causes Decoys to radial disarm with reduced range.

invisibility doesn't cover sound, and enemies will shoot in the general direction of noise, but it also applies a friendly-fire aura around Loki. Enemies will target near Loki, and may end up hitting those nearby allies. When under invisibility, decoys create friendly-fire auras.

Just kind of spitballing here. I'm out of time though so I might come back and refine this post later.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Grineer are failing clones, and probably not as smart as corpus.

 

Never liked this idea. The Grineer have given us numerous reasons to believe that they are intelligent (or at least have intelligent individuals) just like the Corpus.

[Mainabi]

although I like invisibility I feel like it's op, I would prefer a semi invis thing, close range up to 3-5m = not invisible, if the enemy is further away than 5m = invis for the enemy

[YashiroSora]

Killing his invisible would make Loki die too fast, as he is squishy. I propose that, if you are doing a melee attack, you stop cloaking for the duration of your attack animation and your skill timer stops, then resumes after your attack. This allows you to be open to visual in attacking but not down-right killing the skill nor a perma-invisible standing point either. Decoy needs more health/shield, it dies too fast at high levels. As for those who wonder why enemies arent smart and still shoot/melee the hologram, my logic says that, to enemy visual, it looks like another Loki(looks real), but to our Warframe sensors we detect its a hologram(thus why we also know its fake in conclave).

[Vaskadar]

This is more of an artificial intelligence problem with invis. In games like Crysis, if the player gets too close and makes noise, the enemy will react. The lack of reaction, the lack of the enemy shooting in the player's general direction is problematic. A Loki firing a Soma from invis on full blast should draw fire. Enemies should respond to noises generated while the player's invisible. If it's loud, like an automatic weapon, they should be more capable of pinpointing where he is.

 

A Loki drawing attention away from himself by using a decoy in tandem with invisibility would make sense, as enemies that aren't paying attention to him should be subjected to being sliced up into bits. I don't think he should lose the ability to cause severe wounds to the enemy through melee attacks, however. Perhaps if an enemy sees a body, they react and investigate.

 

Prior to things like Fleeting Expertise and the Essence helmet (the arcane one now), it wasn't nearly as easy to maintain full invisibility throughout a mission.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Vaskadar