I Don't Agree With Thegreatzamboni, But I Don't Agree With Steve That It Takes Skill To Make Builds And Use Them; It Doesn't.

[Innocent_Flower]

The great Zamboni's thread is wonderful. It's big. But I somewhat agree with steve that there's a lot of bad assertions there (and a few disagreeable ideas); Mods wouldn't stagnate (with a few changes) there's plenty of room for new and interesting mods and having gun mods like the Zambini suggested as a replacement for mods seems like a downgrade (unless it's a hyper detailed system for each gun, in which it'd just distract devs from other things)

 

 (I don't realy care to pick details on everything, there's a lot of thread there) 

 

 

But at the same time, despite the surrealism of a respected developer flipping his S#&$  expressing himself honesty on a livestream, the one thing that stood out was "skill" 

 

 

 

I'm pretty decent with maths but It realy doesn't feel like skill to mod weapons in warframe. Maybe Weapons with no polarities and no potato (grakata, sybaris and the tetra were somewhat difficult for me), but otherwise modding weapons was simple and to some extent tedious; put on the normal +damage mod for that weapon. Add crit if it's a crit weapon. Add multishot and elemental mods (order depending on simple maths. Elements according to what the weapon fights ) 

 

There are a few exceptions. Angstrum needs reload speed. a few secondaries need rate of fire (lethal torrent preferably) and a few other things, but for the most part you just whack on damage. Moar damage. 

 

That's a problem in itself. You're not picking builds based on your playstyle. You're picking builds on what you calculate  is objectively better.  There isn't a "I think This gun needs a bigger clip" or "I want a flame resistant vaubun" It's a "I need to do more damage" or " I need more health" and that isn't fun. 

 

worst of all this makes a crazy disparity between characters. There's player xxl33tpr0pr4wnzxx with an automatic capable of spewing prime bolts of instant puncturing-corrosive-blast death. Then there's newb who goes through two clips to take down one guy. when you're xxl33tpr0pr4wnsxx with a weapon that makes the deathstar seem weak there just is no skill. 'specialy when you consider that fact that he's got over five times the health of newb so he can just tank S#&$. There's some skill to using a bow, even if it's modded to the point that the arrows can rupture the sun, but there just isn't skill with automatics like soma or boltor P that are so powerful that a good portion of my kills are loose sprayings into crowds . 

 

I think you can make the mod system work; but to do so you've gotta falsify the fact that all we do with mods is just add damage to our weapons/ For frames it's just  survivability and power modifiers for those few powers we like and that's hardly any better. There's no skill to it. 

 

 

apologies for my most terrible english 

[thegamer118]

well the choice IS and WILL be ours to do as such. Want to be exotic, be exotic, wanna follow the rules, follow the rules, it s still our choice on how we play the game and how we mod our stuff, ex: 

http://www.noelshack.com/2014-27-1404579596-sans-titrehgfdsgrkgfndd.png 

http://www.noelshack.com/2014-27-1404579586-sans-titrehgfdsgrkgfnd.png

 

here you can see how i modded my detron and i went for 2 elemental combos to have 3 elemental combos (with radiation being base) and i like it, it makes me giggle, it may not be good for endgame performance but i don t care that s how i roll because i find 3 elemental combos fuckin badass

Edited July 5, 2014 by thegamer118

[Sasquatchias]

[Brimir]

Builds don't take "skill" to use.

 

Builds take "skill" to come up with.

 

Quite different. Theoyrcrafting vs. in practice. However, I feel that Warframe has gotten somewhat stale and all good builds possible have been thought-out already.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Brimir

[Marthrym]

Too much damage. Numbers too big. Enemy scaling bonkers to compensate. Core of the game... flawed.

Still, can be saved! Nerf damage, burn enemy scaling to the ground. Much work, such potential.

[Davoodoo]

Its pretty simple.

 

Every idiot can read guide and get max dps, is it hard?? not at all, using google is basic skill that 5 year old kids learn these days.

[raptor_458]

Best builds-

Primary: Serration, split chamber, 4 elements. Crit? PS+VS. Otherwise, bane and speed trigger

 

Secondary:Hornet, Barrel diffusion, lethal torrent, 4 elements, gunslinger/bane/utility

 

^This is the problem. There are the 'best' builds, and then there is everything else. I think melee actually has some good variety because IPS mods are 90% and elementals are 60(?), plus you have the channeling mods.

[Marthrym]

Best builds-

Primary: Serration, split chamber, 4 elements. Crit? PS+VS. Otherwise, bane and speed trigger

 

Secondary:Hornet, Barrel diffusion, lethal torrent, 4 elements, gunslinger/bane/utility

 

^This is the problem. There are the 'best' builds, and then there is everything else. I think melee actually has some good variety because IPS mods are 90% and elementals are 60(?), plus you have the channeling mods.

Agreed, there is more variety in melee builds than the other 2 types combined...^^'

[Shazarazade]

I personaly do feel there is some skill tied to modding ones warframes and equipment.

I remember a time where I have put a flow and streamline in every frame i used no matter what believing it is most necessary but recently, I cought myself not having either in my builds all the time. I think that over time newer people, like myself, will learn new things and try out new ideas as they progress through the game and get better at identifying what they really wish to improve and how to get there with mods. For me, I believe that is a form of increasing ones skill.

[Cemges]

Well steve and scott overstated the build posts which are mostly either between channeling and normal melee, which doesnt even concern othe mods, and say, mods for primary and secondary mods are mostly boring, and the discussion is motly about one mod. Crit weapons have 1 build x3 element combo,normal weapons have nothing at all, status weapons may offer a little difference, but well, it doesnt concern skill for me. Warframe builds are somewhat better, corrupted mods do help people make a lot of different builds which are helping make use of some skills and make others less useful, making a different way of playing with them. Say, I think too that duration negativeness in nyx helps you spam chaos so its better, its the case on saryn, and like negatice strength that fastens enemies on nova m prime etc make up for variety. So whats boring? Your usual gun play. Here is the problem.

[Davoodoo]

Best builds-

Primary: Serration, split chamber, 4 elements. Crit? PS+VS. Otherwise, bane and speed trigger

 

Secondary:Hornet, Barrel diffusion, lethal torrent, 4 elements, gunslinger/bane/utility

 

^This is the problem. There are the 'best' builds, and then there is everything else. I think melee actually has some good variety because IPS mods are 90% and elementals are 60(?), plus you have the channeling mods.

Primary

1. Serration

2. Element 1

3. Element 2

4 Heavy caliber

5 Split chamber

6 Element 3 or crit mod

7 Element 4 or crit mod 2 or bane if not crit.

8 shred or speed trigger.

 

Thats top dps.

 

Steve also said that channeling mods are interesting but are they truly??

 

Only worth anything channeling mod is life strike and only due to heal, if you dont have that one skip whole channeling.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Davoodoo

[cyril1204]

I think like Steve said in the last stream that there should be a trade-off for the mods the more powerful they are. We currently have:

 

Normal mods without trade-off

Corrupted mods with noticeable trade-off

Nightmare mods and dual stat mods

 

We would have more customization on the weapon if we split the normal mods into 2 more categories:

 

Utility mods without trade-off. Eg: Magazine size, fire rate

Mods/ Dmg mods with small trade-offs: Serration, Multishot, 90% element mods ------>give these mods some small draw backs capped -25% of something that corrupted mods don't cover (like heavy caliber has 55% less accuracy, serration will have 20-25% less fire rate)

 

P/S: DE please buff those single element mods that still max at 60% instead of 90% that they deserve

Edited July 5, 2014 by cyril1204

[Cemges]

Primary

1. Serration

2. Element 1

3. Element 2

4 Heavy caliber

5 Split chamber

6 Element 3 or crit mod

7 Element 4 or crit mod 2 or bane if not crit.

8 shred or speed trigger.

 

Thats top dps

Well status changes things you know, status also makes up for more damage and say, there are weapons with status and crits both being strong, so if a little bit more balance has been made to mods, it could be nice. Mod system has great potential, but little refinement and calculation, and well somebody has to sit down and extensively calculate every single thing, and that needs to be a laid developer, and i dont see why its scott who has to do all of that stuff...

[MrA1]

you don't agree but you don't agree ???

[Davoodoo]

Well status changes things you know, status also makes up for more damage and say, there are weapons with status and crits both being strong, so if a little bit more balance has been made to mods, it could be nice. Mod system has great potential, but little refinement and calculation, and well somebody has to sit down and extensively calculate every single thing, and that needs to be a laid developer, and i dont see why its scott who has to do all of that stuff...

Theres no way to check how much dps will status do and if you think that status will do more dps then just swap elements for element+status, it will still follow that schematic.

[ShioriShi]

I think the biggest flaw to gun mods is the fact we use up quite a few slots for the "must have" mods like Serration/Hornet/multi shots.

There is not "skill" or anything involved there really. When it comes to other mods I think another big flaw is that we can actualy put on 3-4 different elements on the same gun, would be more diversity in builds if we where only allowed 1 or 2 elements on a single gun so that not everyone runs around with a: radiation/viral/magnetic/corrosive marelok of doom.

[Cemges]

Hey btw, since sheldon talked about low and high quality version of mods, what about higher level mods having more stats and different drawbacks, say, legendary serration having more accuracy loss but also crit and status buff, and likes of that, which allow for even more complexity and diversity to builds, for higher level experienced players that wont be overwhelmed. I mean look at god damn games like metin2 where 15 yo child is making stupid differently diverse and unaccaptably expensive builds for their characters, like crit and penetrating hits and armors with chance to neglect those crit and penetration, raising hp regenration to raise effective hp per second, etc. We can go a little bit complex for higher level players, this example is about that.

[matrixEXO]

I think the reason why people slap on damage or health/shield mods is because of the way 2 things scale on. Mod scaling and enemy scaling.

 

Mod scaling is, by the most parts, massive. Having a Rank 0 Serration by itself is massive. Therefore, mods that do more damage exponentially scales their effect even more because of mods like Serration and the way the current system works. Enemy scaling is also another factor, being because of the artificial difficulty due to the fact that real difficulty can't be achieved by DE in any aspect. Enemy gains more damage and health and the only way to prevent insane damage absorption by the character is to kill them faster.

 

I think the only ways we can open the build up is to reduce enemy scaling by a lot and reduce all mod effects such that they do not impact the performance of a weapon majorly. IE: Serration increases damage by 1% per rank. However, it seems that regardless of what DE intends to fix such a case, the mod system is already flawed such that weapons made based around the mod system would all need to be rebalanced and retweaked in order for them to achieve their original design again.

[Mak_Gohae]

You're not picking builds based on your playstyle. You're picking builds on what you calculate  is objectively better.

 

I am.

If you create builds based solely on the math of course there is no skill, all you do is get the bigger number and there you go.

But you can create builds to fit a specific playstyle and that uses a bit of imagination. 

You folks got to remember that you are not the only person-type playing this game and when a Dev is talking he is not just talking to you.

 

Back when the Ignis first came out there were a group of people complaining because it didnt have punch through (hitting multiple enemies) like flame throwers in other video games and "just like in real life."  Which is not true because flame thrower in real life actually expel a liquid that when it hits something it stops. Anyway, while all those people were complaining about that i used my imagination, imaginaaation, imaginaaaaaaaaaaaaaation and put in a punch through mod because WHY THE HEK NOT and was running around like Hank Scorpio having mad fun. 

 

 

So while the math people didnt want to loose one damage mod i was living the flame thrower life.

 

Sure, DE eventually bended but the point of the story is that the math folks limit themselves and dont think outside the box for a minute. Free your mind and the rest will follow, be mod blind, dont be so shallow.

[RancidTurnip1603]

I think the reason why people slap on damage or health/shield mods is because of the way 2 things scale on. Mod scaling and enemy scaling.

 

Mod scaling is, by the most parts, massive. Having a Rank 0 Serration by itself is massive. Therefore, mods that do more damage exponentially scales their effect even more because of mods like Serration and the way the current system works. Enemy scaling is also another factor, being because of the artificial difficulty due to the fact that real difficulty can't be achieved by DE in any aspect. Enemy gains more damage and health and the only way to prevent insane damage absorption by the character is to kill them faster.

 

I think the only ways we can open the build up is to reduce enemy scaling by a lot and reduce all mod effects such that they do not impact the performance of a weapon majorly. IE: Serration increases damage by 1% per rank. However, it seems that regardless of what DE intends to fix such a case, the mod system is already flawed such that weapons made based around the mod system would all need to be rebalanced and retweaked in order for them to achieve their original design again.

Then firerate, reload, and magazine capacity will be the new mods to run in every build, because they would increase the damage per second more than the damage mods would.

 

What there needs to be, is balance. It doesn't matter what the enemies scale to; If some mods are better than other mods, people are going to use them more. DE needs to nerf the damage mods, buff the utility mods, or both. People have been asking for a balancing pass to be made on mods for months, and DE always says they're getting to it.

 

For some reason now, people are getting mixed up in their heads and associating the mod system as what's broken instead of the power of the mods themselves.

Edited July 5, 2014 by RancidTurnip1603

[notlamprey]

I'm not sure I agree with the feeling of being pressed into building weapons based "not on playstyle, but on math."

 

I feel like wanting to min/max is a playstyle unto itself, and likewise for wanting to have fun with wacky builds. I'm not lighting up my pitchfork just yet, because I think the mod system in general has been improving.

 

I absolutely think you should send any and all ideas for goofy odd-effect weapon mods to the Dev team. More weird build possibilities can only ever be a good thing.

[taiiat]

Builds take "skill" to come up with.

not really, just memorization and experience. that's not skill, that's memorizing that a square block doesn't fit in a round hole.

 

 

like flame throwers in other video games and "just like in real life."

except Ignis is a Gas Thrower. if it's going to only fire pressurized flammable gases, enveloping things makes sense, but it's trading a lot of Power for that.

 

still waiting for the day we get an actual Flame Thrower. won't be hitting entire crowds at once, but it'll bury Enemies in Napalm.

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

The "skill to make a build" topic is a tricky one in my mind.  Personally speaking, so long as the game isn't needlessly convoluted in terms of how things work, making a build is never hard at all.  Anyone with a lick of sense can sort out that certain things will be synergetic and others will not, this applies to every game ever made.  There's varying levels of playstyle which range from being highly specialized to all around, and so long as each choice can be viable to an extend than the system works in my mind.

 

Currently, I'm okay with how the mod system works in an overall sense but I feel there are some issues with varying degrees of severity within it.  Warm coat is a good example of a not sensible mod, for one part its solely a defeatist mod, on the other hand you have no beforehand knowledge or control over whether or not a level will have the randomized Ice effect.  It's like flipping a coin and hoping for the best with a sole win/loss and no in between.

 

While the outliers exist, I feel that the grouping of mods available across Warframes are in a mostly sensible place.  Weapons on the other hand are directly the opposite, apart from choosing different elements pretty much every build is as cookie cutter as it gets.  Unlike on frames where there's a real choice between focusing on a multitude of things between mobility, defense, and ability usage, weapons are blatantly damage or bust.  There are a lot of issues which strongarm the weapons into this one niche and don't allow them any other option, these all boil down to the over-arching balance that's in play within Warframe.

 

Without focusing on putting more damage on your weapons, you'll simply fail to kill things sooner than one who chooses those damage modifiers.  The utility given by non-damaging mods simply isn't enough to warrant their use.  Beyond that, due to every mod being +X% based, there is no reward for playing up a weapon's weaknesses in any sensible respect.  Basically, weapons don't have any realistic build options aside from a very small number of obscure weapons like the Tysis or Castanas.  The former being a Status weapon and the latter being limited in deployment number (meaning the effective magazine size to multi-shot ratio is more imperative).

 

Warframes can have varying builds because we don't need to rely on our Warframes to be killing all the things.  Weapons don't have that luxury and since Warframe is balanced in a way that everyone is a glass cannon there's no reason to focus on utility on your weapons.

 

As far as I'm concerned, builds never take "skill" to come up with beyond the same skills involved in knowing how to make a sandwich, though that isn't just about Warframe as I already stated.  Even if there are numerous build options, it's still always an easy situation.

[LukeAura]

I feel like wanting to min/max is a playstyle unto itself, and likewise for wanting to have fun with wacky builds. I'm not lighting up my pitchfork just yet, because I think the mod system in general has been improving.

 

I absolutely think you should send any and all ideas for goofy odd-effect weapon mods to the Dev team. More weird build possibilities can only ever be a good thing.

That's not at all the problem. The issue isn't a total lack of choice. It's an apparent sense of false choice. You can create whatever kind of build you want, but there is very obviously a more effective build out there. 

Damage heavy, ability spammy is the most effective playstyle. And that is the flaw that no amount of crazy mod ideas can counter. 

Build primarily for dps, then cover any noticeable flaw in your weapon like too small of a clip or too long of a reload if even necessary. 

It's also the easiest to create because it doesn't really matter what damage mods you put on, you're still stacking damage. 

This game puts the control in the players hand on how to build, but does not reward the creative freedom it gives people.

[neKroMancer]

The problem is that DE use mod as the game's primary progression. You will need direct damage mods, multishot mods, elemental damage mods to deal reasonable amount of damage to high level enemies. You can choose not to take them into your loadout but it's not sensible. It's not even a choice if you wan to progress into higher level. 

 

Does mod system itself broken? Partially, yes. The moment DE allowed player to stack damage mod - it's clear that damage mod will play a large role in the game and everything else are just nice gimmicks. Larger magazine and faster reload are pointless if you unload an entire magazine just to kill one mook. 

 

If DE really want to change this metagame, we need a fix. Both AI design and mod/weapon interaction.