Upgrading Older Weapons To Better Status? Or Revamping Whole Balance System

[omegaskorpion]

(What do you mean with "viable"?) 

 

With viable i mean that all weapons should be equally usable and not unbalanced.

 

This does not mean that all weapons would have same stats and does mean that there still will be the best DPS machines or most damaging weapons.

 

However there should be this feel of choice, we have so many weapons and most of them are useless in later levels. You can use potato and forma all you can to weak weapons, it wont make them as good as the best weapons.

 

Warframe has lack of variety even with all of its amazing looking and functioning weapons and that is because of their poor balance.

 

My topics idea is one way to keep the progression but also the weapon balance in game.

 

It may not be the best but its still something.

 

 

 

 

 

Upgrade Kits:

 

What would upgrade kits do? they increase weapon stats on par with mastery ranks (lato is tear 0 weapon, you can upgrade it 8 times, weapons like boltor prime and dragon nicana can't be upgrated since they have highest rank (8)

 

Upgrade kits don't just add more damage, but also increase fire rate, crit change, status change, reload speed and so on, Weapon gets buffed from stats that it lacks the most and normally would make it bad later on. 

 

(some weapons upgrades wont upgrade damage but accuracy and projectile speed)

 

Upgrade kits blueprint could be found from the containers/crates/lockers/corpses.

 

 

Since they only drop resources health/energy and credits, it would be more interesting if they would drop faction specific upgrade kits.

 

Every weapon has their own factions so it would make sense that upgrade kits have faction too.

 

Upgrade kits have small chance to spawn and player cant get them by killing enemies, only by searching lockers/crates and in invasion missions corpses have change to spawn them.

 

if you find upgrade kit that is higher in tier than you are, you can't build it, when you finally reach that tier you can build it.

 

The most tier to build weapon right now is dragon nicana tier 8. So if every weapon would get upgrade kit, they can only upgrade to the top level of tiers, in this case tier 8.

Soma can upgrade only 2 times since its tier 6 weapon.

(what effects the upgrade gives is up to devs, maybe it will only upgrade damage since it has already nice crit change)

 

So just to make it clear:

 

Lato is tier 0 weapon: you can upgrade this weapon 8 times

Dera is tier 4 weapon: you can upgrade it 4 times.

 

Dragon nikana is tier 8 weapon: you cant upgrade it.

Possible tiers:

 

 

Tier 0  MK1 weapons, lato, viper, Tysis, Skana, pangolin sword, ceramic dagger,

 

Tier 1 Braton Stun, Lex, Burston, Silva & aegis, Furis, Twin gremlins, plasma sword

 

Tier 2 Gram, Scindo, Galantine, Prova, Karak, Latron, Boltor, Askiletto, Seer, bolto

 

Tier 3 Dual Zoren, Ether Reaper, Dual Cleavers, Drakgoon, Kraken, Akzani, Dark sword, ether sword

 

Tier 4 Gorgon, Dera, Tetra, Hind, Tignis, Vasto, Stug, Amphis, heat sword

 

Tier 5 Sobek, Hek, Flux Rifle, Paris, Glaxion, Magnus, Castanas, Glaive

 

Tier 6 Supra, grakata, Grinlok, Nikana, Mutalist Quanta, Attica, miter, Buzlok

 

Tier 7 Soma, Embolist, Amprex,Synapse, Serro, Vectis, Vulkar, Scoliac, karyst, Hate

 

Tier 8 Penta,  Phage, Marelok, Dragon nikana, Jat Kitta, Quanta, Orgis,

 

Tier 9 Prime weaponry and mini boss weapons

 

 

Example of effects:

 

Braton

 

Tier 1

Impact 6,6, puncture 6,6, slash 6,8, mag size 45, crit change 10%, crit damage 150%, proc 5%, reload 2s, firing rate 8.8, accuracy 28.6 

 

(after upgrades)

 

Tier 8

Impact 10, puncture 10, slash 10, mag size 60, crit change 10%, crit damage 200%, proc 20%, reload 2s, firing rate 9.8, accuracy 28.6

 

 

_______________________________________

 

 

 

Braton Prime

 

Tier 8

Impact 1.3, puncture 8.8, slash 15, mag size 50, crit change 10%, crit damage 150%, proc 10%, reload 2.2s, firing rate 8.8, accuracy 28.6

 

 

(after upgrade)

 

Tier 9

Impact 5, puncture 10, slash 20, mag size 70, crit change 15%, crit damage 200%, proc 25%, reload 2s, firing rate 9.0, accuracy 28.6

 

After Braton prime buff this example is dated.

 

 

Upgrade kits in inventory   (consept art)

 

When you find upgrade kit blueprint you must build it in order to use it to your weapon (blueprints are consumed in building)

 

Making tenno upgrade kit would require:

 

1 Morphic

1000 Plastics

1000 rubedo

1000 Ferrite

 

Build time: 1h

Build cost 10.000 credits

 

Blueprints are found from excavation and dark sector missions, also orokin derelict vault has drop change.

 

Infested Upgrade kit

 

10 Mutagen samples

5000 nano spores

1000 plastics

5000 savage

 

Build time: 1h

Build cost 10.000 credits

 

Blueprints are found from orokin derelict lockers and crates, also in Eris lockers and crates have change to spawn blueprints.

 

Grineer upgrade kit

 

10 detonate ampule

5000 alloy plate

5000 circuits

5000 savage

 

Build time: 1h

Build cost 10.000 credits

 

Blueprints are found from grineer corpses (in the invasion) lockers and crates, hidden rooms have bigger drop change.

 

Corpus upgrade kit

 

10 Fieldron samples

1000 polymer bundle

1000 Rubedo

5 Control module

 

Build time: 1h

Build cost 10.000 credits

 

Blueprints are found from corpus lockers, crates and corpses (in invasions), secret rooms have bigger change to spawn blueprints

 

 

Orokin/prime upgrade kit

 

10 Control module

5000 alloy plate

5000 Rubedo

1 argon crystal

 

Build time: 1h

Build cost 15.000 credits

 

Blueprints are found from orokin containers and lockers, hidden rooms have more change to drop bluprints.

 

 

Upgrade kit blueprints can be sold for 2,500 credits.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

weapon performance

 

(some of these kind of ideas have been suggested time to time, heres my ideas about them)

 

 

Every type of weapons should have their abilities:

 

Shotguns: when in close range, enemies will be pushed back and pellets have 50% change to penetrate target and hit other enemies. Able to break enemies arm and disarm them in close range. Shooting to leg will slow enemies. At long range this weapon loses all its close range powers.

 

Snipers: Shots temporary stun enemies and penetrate them and hit other enemy. Shooting enemys arm will disarm them. Shooting to enemies leg will slow them. Head shots and weak points deal 3x damage.

 

Rifles: the most important thing to rifles is their main damage, it will determine their power.

 

Beam weapons: continues fire can with enough time penetrate enemies and hit others behind them.

 

Explosives: On hit enemies that survive from blast will either knock down or be affected from the explosion pressure and become ragdolls for moment. If ragdolled enemy hits others they will fall in the ground by force that ragdolled enemy created but they wont suffer any damage.

 

High Power Pistols: able to disarm and break legs. Stun on headshots.

 

Full auto pistols: just like rifles, their main damage is the one that desides their power.

 

Bows: Same abilities as snipers, but can't stun unless head shot.

 

Knifes: stuns with every hit for moment.

 

Heavy Melee: can make momentary stuns and has 60% change to long stuns that make enemys unbalanced, making next hit they get ragdoll them.

 

 

Damage abilities: (works on the damage type that has the highest damage)

 

puncture has always 50% change to penetrate living enemies and 100% to penetrade trough dead enemies. 

 

Impact always does little push on enemies (shotguns notably even more), dead enemies get very high push making the way clearer. Is more viable at breaking body parts like hands and legs.

 

Slash has more change to disarm , dead enemies get cut to half.

 

 

 

Weapon gore

 

 

 

 

 

Shotguns: enemies that die from the next shot and are close will get their body parts blown to bits. 

 

Snipers: Head shots break enemy heads and are able to cut arms and legs.

 

Rifles: affected by damage type.

 

Beam weapons: cuts enemies half from: head, torso, arms and legs.

 

Explosives: breaks enemys body to pieces.

 

High Power Pistols: can break heads, affected by damage type.

 

Full auto pistols: affected by damage type.

 

Bows: as they were.

 

Melee: cutting edge weapons cut enemies in to pieces, piercing melee leaves holes, impact melee breaks body parts.

 

 

 

 

Damage abilities: (works on the damage type that has the highest damage)

 

puncture leaves enemy body full of holes.

 

Impact breaks body parts.

 

Slash cuts enemy body parts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...Or total Balance

 

 

So if we don't create upgrade kits or any similar weapon progression way...

 

we should have complete balance over haul on all weapons, frames and enemies, to make them balanced.

 

This would mean that every weapon, even the mk-1 weapons will be viable at any level, other weapons are then side grades having their own strength and weaknesses.

 

Our frames powers would be nerfed a little bit so enemies would not die instantly all the time, making abilities more ground controlling and either support or pure damage dealers.

 

Enemies would also have total revamp, giving them possible better AI and abilities per level and not infinite scaling.

 

(what do i mean with better ai and abilities? well will enemies learn more "moves" every difficulty making them harder to shoot since they are more mobile and their attacks will become more aggressive without damage boost, example would be that grineer would form shield barricades with bombards behind them, or scorpions grapping tenno when they are low on health or far away from other grineers. Melee units would learn combos and start to block tenno attacks. This would mean that difficulty would progress without adding more health or damage)  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Possible ak-weapons fusion and original+prime fusion:

 

 

 

 

 

   +          =                                   

When you do ak version of your single variant, all your forma and potatoes will transfer to ak version.

 

           >           fusion           <    

Almost every weapon will get prime variant,  and meanwhile we are upgrading the original one with forma and potatos.

it would be nice if this work would not go to waist

 

when we finally have found all the prime parts we and builded the gun we can fuse it with the original one, transfering all the forma and potatoes to the prime variant.

 

(Prime weapon is build separately, but if you have you older weapon, you can fuse them to give all the older forma and potatoes to prime variant)

 

 

 

 

Armor mechanic

 

 

 

[this is not completely my idea]

 

Current enemy and tenno armor mechanic is pretty broken, enemies scale of the roofs and most of the frames armor is meaningless. 

 

 

I suggest that armor could be physical and not just a number.

 

This would mean that some parts of the armor are tougher than others, but they all will break in some point. So we would literary strip our enemies from their armor.

 

When bullet hits enemy the armor will completely absorb all the damage, but in some point it will break, leaving that body part without any protection (kinda like corpus helmets)

 

Impact and puncture will deal some damage trough the armor but slash wont deal any damage until the armor is broken. However when armor breaks, it will deal more damage than impact or puncture. 

 

Even our frames armor will break in fight, this will leave some of our frame parts more vulnerable than others, however they could have their own health bar that could be refilled. 

 

Broken armor parts in frames will have scars and holes.

 

Broken grineer armor will have armor pieces removed or having slash, impact and puncture marks.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: It has been a long time since i have touched this topic, reason being that DE promised balancing changes, however outside the PVP this has not been fulfilled. Which is reason why i try to update this bit more.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2015 by omegaskorpion

[Psychotoxin]

That... actually sounds interesting... Needs a bit of polishing (don`t ask me) imho, but yeah... seems like a decent idea...

[Ravensaurus]

I like your idea!

Because with this idea -> #Latomasterrace

 

(Just a thought... You should change the 5000 circuits in Grineer pack to the 1000 rubedo in Corpus pack. In that way they make more sense.)

[Monolake]

You know that you can do all the  normal content with MK1 weapons? Even  30 min T3 survivals. 

[Habba]

+1 From me . One minor problem is , that there are many weapons that are good and unique , but lack dps wise . I would love to use my AK-Lato with the Rixty Skin , but you aren´t able to run them in T4 . I know they are meant to be beginners weapons , but you cant run around with a Lato Prime or Braton Prime in End-Game too . They are just too weak . This solution of yours is great and i would appreciate it if it would be implemented .

[BrotherIcarus]

The way I see it mod system has already made every weapon viable. 

 

I like the idea but I feel its goal has already been achieved.

[Somedude1000]

You know that you can do all the  normal content with MK1 weapons? Even  30 min T3 survivals. 

 

I guess maybe this solution is if they don't wanna forma maybe, i dunno

 

I don't agree with the idea personally, because i all weapons could be upgraded, Tenno my potentially just abandon skill and go for upgrading everything they can to do max dmg, max fire rate etc, rather than strategise how to use low level weapons in different situations to synergize with other, better weps 

[omegaskorpion]

I guess maybe this solution is if they don't wanna forma maybe, i dunno

 

I don't agree with the idea personally, because i all weapons could be upgraded, Tenno my potentially just abandon skill and go for upgrading everything they can to do max dmg, max fire rate etc, rather than strategise how to use low level weapons in different situations to synergize with other, better weps 

 

upgrade kits dont just upgrade damage, they also boost crit change and status change fire rate and so on, its up to delopers how much they increase stats per tier.

 

People say that mods are solution, but they arent, unmoded magnus and mareloc deal still more damage than fully forma/potato lato

Edited September 28, 2014 by omegaskorpion

[omegaskorpion]

That... actually sounds interesting... Needs a bit of polishing (don`t ask me) imho, but yeah... seems like a decent idea...

 

Yep, im going to make this better polished.

 

 

I like your idea!

Because with this idea -> #Latomasterrace

 

(Just a thought... You should change the 5000 circuits in Grineer pack to the 1000 rubedo in Corpus pack. In that way they make more sense.)

 

im not sute since grineer planets drop mostly circuits and corpus weapons need rubedo.

 

 

The way I see it mod system has already made every weapon viable. 

 

I like the idea but I feel its goal has already been achieved.

 

shoot with fully upgrated lato and compare it to magnus or mareloc without mods, they still kill more than lato and lato wont stand a change in higher levels.

And if player wants to use lato in higher levels, he/she will be disapointed, hell, most of the weapons lack power in higher levels and maps (pluto/ceres/eris)

 

upgrade kits are made to make the weapon better over time, so they can be compared to high tier level weapons later in the game if fully upgrated.

Edited September 28, 2014 by omegaskorpion

[Sannidor]

If DE would ever applied anything similar into the game I would expect it to be extra mod slot, not weapon specific but upgrading one of the stats.

Having elemental only weapon deal extra impact damage for example, but it would affect it permanently.

 

Inventing new abilities available for all weapons would bring so many imbalances that most basic stats would need to be nerfed.

 

You seemingly expect Warframe to be fair and not promoting new stuff by giving it crazy stats encouraging players to spend platinum on it.

 

On the other hand, I did not expect latest event mods to be MORE SLASH, so who knows...

 

So, you can take five forma Braton to T IV void but you need powerful frame/good team/skills and patience.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

I like this. Forma and potatoes only go so far in improving a weapon. We've already seen people willing to go to extreme lengths to keep their personal favorites viable (remember that guy who put ~5x forma into his gorgon so it could keep up with the Soma?), giving those people more options is hardly a bad thing.

 

Besides, I need something to do with all these common resources.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

Besides, I need something to do with all these common resources.

Ammo and Energy restores.

[xkillo32]

more RNG

nty

 

I like this. Forma and potatoes only go so far in improving a weapon. We've already seen people willing to go to extreme lengths to keep their personal favorites viable (remember that guy who put ~5x forma into his gorgon so it could keep up with the Soma?), giving those people more options is hardly a bad thing.

 

Besides, I need something to do with all these common resources.

 

uh what?

5 formas isn't even that much

Edited September 28, 2014 by xkillo32

[omegaskorpion]

Ammo and Energy restores.

 

Sometimes, even 100 energy restores arent enaugh to depleat my 1000000000000 nano spores

[omegaskorpion]

If DE would ever applied anything similar into the game I would expect it to be extra mod slot, not weapon specific but upgrading one of the stats.

Having elemental only weapon deal extra impact damage for example, but it would affect it permanently.

 

Inventing new abilities available for all weapons would bring so many imbalances that most basic stats would need to be nerfed.

 

You seemingly expect Warframe to be fair and not promoting new stuff by giving it crazy stats encouraging players to spend platinum on it.

 

On the other hand, I did not expect latest event mods to be MORE SLASH, so who knows...

 

So, you can take five forma Braton to T IV void but you need powerful frame/good team/skills and patience.

 

Only thing im expecting is that this game would also encourage using all weapons, everyone knows what the best weapons are.

 

I have tested almost every weapon and many of them are funny to use, but lack power pas level 10-15.

 

Hell, i see opportunity that DE would sell upgrade kits in store, not only that we could find them.

 

(the upgrade kits only buff existing stats)

Edited September 28, 2014 by omegaskorpion

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

Sometimes, even 100 energy restores arent enaugh to depleat my 1000000000000 nano spores

Also, seeing as how potent these upgrade kits are, I'd say that they should cost at least 20x as much as the resources you currently have posted.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

 

I have tested almost every weapon and many of them are funny to use, but lack power pas level 10-15.

 

How is that even possible? Did you put any mods on them at all? Even a Lato with just a max Hornet Strike will go to level 25 no problem.

[omegaskorpion]

How is that even possible? Did you put any mods on them at all? Even a Lato with just a max Hornet Strike will go to level 25 no problem.

 

just tested, not making any sense. Besides, why are people so in love with weapons being weak and saying that "forma and potato will fix everyhing in life"

[omegaskorpion]

more RNG

nty

 

 

uh what?

5 formas isn't even that much

 

If you like using you boltor prime, it would not even have upgrade kits since its in the top of the food chain, so proplem solved, you already have top rear weapon, you dont need yo upgrade it, how ever if you love your weak weapons, why not give them some love with upgrade kits that you have to farm from lockers (i know farming is not best solution but i would farm then rather buy them, also there are about 50 lockers/crates in map, so it would not need that much farming)

 

Also, forma does not solve everything (even if people have 8 forma in bad weapon)

Edited September 28, 2014 by omegaskorpion

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

just tested, not making any sense. Besides, why are people so in love with weapons being weak and saying that "forma and potato will fix everyhing in life"

Well, most weapons are useless without a potato. Orokin Catalysts used to be a way to upgrade your weapon, they were supposed to do what your "Upgrade Kits" were supposed to do, but now they've become mandatory for 90% of all weapons. The same can be said for forma. You were supposed to use weapons without potato or forma, but now, it's impossible to do anything without a potato. You can blame power creep for that. The same thing will happen to your upgrade kits. Eventually all enemies will end up being buffed to the point where you need to have put 10 upgrade kits into the weapon in order to kill anything at all. Your "solution" does not solve the real reason why weapons are not viable : Power Creep.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Tehnoobshow

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I like this idea, but I still think people would just upgrade the already 'OP' Weapons.

I would have preferred if Mastery Rank played a part in weapon viability - maybe the upgrade kits are Mastery Rank locked - to boost weapons to basically a more level damage output per Mastery Rank Tier.

-Or perhaps based on Affinity of the weapon in relation to Mastery Rank - the more you use it the stronger it gets.

- Perhaps the 'Upgrade Kits' could have fusion Ranks (Ranks unlocked by Mastery Rank) and the Upgrade kits scale the weapon's normal base stats per fusion level. Taking that concept 1 further applying an Upgrade Kit to a Warframe can boost base health/armor/stamina/shields/energy (affected by mods) and add an additional fusion Rank to the 4 abilities. (Meaning abilities would have more than 4 ranks. A Range cap can be set at 50m so if an ability hits that Range cap there would not need to be a need to slot Stretch or Overextended. Also, for some there would be a reason to not slot more duration as the ability duration would have been extended with the new ranks.

I mained the Spectra pre-buff and am thoroughly enjoying the Spectra post-buff, on PS4. (Most used Weapon in stats since it doesn't count melee as an equipped weapon ...

[omegaskorpion]

Well, most weapons are useless without a potato. Orokin Catalysts used to be a way to upgrade your weapon, they were supposed to do what your "Upgrade Kits" were supposed to do, but now they've become mandatory for 90% of all weapons. The same can be said for forma. You were supposed to use weapons without potato or forma, but now, it's impossible to do anything without a potato. You can blame power creep for that. The same thing will happen to your upgrade kits. Eventually all enemies will end up being buffed to the point where you need to have put 10 upgrade kits into the weapon in order to kill anything at all. Your solution does not solve the real reason why weapons are not viable : Power Creep.

 

But i newer sayd how many upgrade kits weapon can get,

 

lato in example could get max 10 upgrade kits, so it would be on par with (lets just say) magnus

 

Not better than magnus but viable

 

if all weapons in game were with upgrade kits in same level, all weapons would be viable

 

of cource every weapon needs potato be BEST, but some weapons are just S#&amp;&#036; even with potato

 

basicly, karak is tier 2 weapon, it would need 8 upgrades to get to tier 10.

 

it would not suppase other weapons but it would be par with them

[(PSN)Strifedecer]

Quite a good concept to draw from...

Edited September 28, 2014 by (PS4)Strifedecer

[omegaskorpion]

I like this idea, but I still think people would just upgrade the already 'OP' Weapons.

I would have preferred if Mastery Rank played a part in weapon viability - maybe the upgrade kits are Mastery Rank locked - to boost weapons to basically a more level damage output per Mastery Rank Tier.

-Or perhaps based on Affinity of the weapon in relation to Mastery Rank - the more you use it the stronger it gets.

- Perhaps the 'Upgrade Kits' could have fusion Ranks (Ranks unlocked by Mastery Rank) and the Upgrade kits scale the weapon's normal base stats per fusion level. Taking that concept 1 further applying an Upgrade Kit to a Warframe can boost base health/armor/stamina/shields/energy (affected by mods) and add an additional fusion Rank to the 4 abilities. (Meaning abilities would have more than 4 ranks. A Range cap can be set at 50m so if an ability hits that Range cap there would not need to be a need to slot Stretch or Overextended. Also, for some there would be a reason to not slot more duration as the ability duration would have been extended with the new ranks.

I mained the Spectra pre-buff and am thoroughly enjoying the Spectra post-buff, on PS4. (Most used Weapon in stats since it doesn't count melee as an equipped weapon ...

 

well what i am trying to say that if weapon is alredy tier 10 weapon, you cant upgrade it since its top of its level

 

then agen tier 2 weapon could be upgrated 8 times (so every weapon would be at their top in tier 10)

[RealPandemonium]

Pretty much all weapons are already viable if you formatato them.