Ember Got A Buff - World On Fire Got A Nerf

[Phoenix86]

*** DISCLAIMER ***

 

This is just a speculation because we dont know exactly how much will be the energy drain/sec for World on Fire.

 

*** DISCLAIMER ***

 

Now we know the energy drain cost is 5/sec

 

Old speculation before the update:

So Ember is getting a buff... about time!

 

I was so happy... but after reading over and over Scott's post... yeah the buff is there, but WoF looks like is getting a slight nerf.

 

Please, read again the disclaimer and hear me out:

 

Right now World on Fire costs 100 Energy and lasts 10 seconds (unmodded)

 

The new World on Fire is going to be a toggleable ability with an initial casting cost of 50 and then a energy/sec drain.

 

Now... when can we consider this a buff -or not- if we dont know how much this energy drain is going to be?

 

Assuming it will be a 5 energy/sec drain, after 10 seconds the ability will cost exactly 100 (like the current one)

BUT, like all energy draining ability, we will not be able to take advantage of energy regen from Energy Siphons or Energy Vampire or Limbo Rift or Energy Restore.

So we can safely assume that this is already a NERF in efficiency for Ember.

 

If it's going to be more than 5 energy/sec the NERF will be even more noticiable.

If it's going to be 4 energy/sec or less it will actually be a buff... for a while.

 

So my conclusion is that yes, Ember is getting a buff, but probably World on Fire is getting a NERF (big or small is yet to determinate)

 

IMHO World on Fire was already good, the one skill that needed a toggle to TRULY SINERGIZE with WoF and Ember's fast paced playstyle was ACCELERANT!

 

Imagine running around with a toggle'd Accelerant + WoF... even without dmg buffs it would greatly improve Ember!

 

PS: i still dunno what Duration is going to affect in a toggleable ability... number of explosions/sec? meh, so we still crippled with 4 sides to upgrade (strenght, range, duration, efficiency) and not 3 like most of the frames

 

So now that we know how much the drain is we can safely assume that this is a slight nerf to WoF efficiency

 

100 energy cost before (Energy Siphon will restore from 6 up to 24 energy during its duration, depending how many in the party have it equipped)

 

50+50 energy cost after (Energy Siphon doesnt work and, probably neither EV or Team Energy Restore will work *needs to be tested* )

 

"Before" it's already winning over "After"

 

The ratio doesnt change if we add in Efficiency mods, therefore "After" can never win and the fact you cant regain energy from other external sources it's a penalty to the new WoF no matter what.

 

The only feature we got for World on Fire is that we can end it earlier and, for every second we anticipate its end we can save 10% of its energy cost, giving up dmg.

 

And the fun part is that, if you see no enemies and decide to end it earlier to save from 45 (assuming you end it after only 1 second duration LOL)  to 5 energy (if you make it last 9 seconds), and the room after is full of foes you have to cast it again effectivaly wasting a lot more energy!

 

And since it's still affected by duration (like Limbo Cataclysm or Mirage Prism) you wont free up any slot in your loadout.

You still need duration to determinate how long it can last (not to mention it is useful for Accelerant, etc)

Edited January 22, 2015 by Phoenix86

[HollowExistence]

WoF was extremely bad. And didn't scale into any game.

The element of embers isn't even good against any faction. She needs buffs

[Phoenix86]

WoF was extremely bad. And didn't scale into any game.

The element of embers isn't even good against any faction. She needs buffs

 

UP to lvl 30 enemies, Ember is my rusher of choice... enemies just melt as i run through, past that mark yes, it doesnt scale anymore.

 

Now imagine if we could run with both Accelerant and WoF together... BAM! Ember insta-viable up to lvl 60+

Edited January 21, 2015 by Phoenix86

[(PSN)jFresh215]

can i get a link to the post please?

[Phoenix86]

can i get a link to the post please?

 

Sure, here it is: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/386223-ember-surviving-canadian-winters/

[Archwizard]

While I hadn't considered the energy regeneration being deactivated while toggled on, I'd already considered it a nerf in efficiency.

 

Here's the thing: World on Fire will still be affected by duration according to Scott. While how hasn't explicitly been specified, the implication is that it will have a maximum duration, as with Mirage's Prism and Oberon's Renewal; therefore, it's not that the toggle adds anything to the ability, you can just turn it off sooner (and maybe save a little energy).
Contrast to this, however, is the fact that the cost per second is not affected by increases to Power Duration on Mirage or Oberon. So while you would today be able to slap on Power Duration to bump World on Fire up from 10 seconds to 25.7 seconds for the same moderate cost of 100 energy, slapping on Power Duration post-toggle "buff" means it now costs 50+25X (where X is the cost per second) for the same maximum duration; if we assume that it will match the total cost relative to the present unmodded duration at max rank (thereby X ~= 5), that means 175 energy.

 

See, when players asked for World on Fire to be a toggle (much with Renewal before it), they were asking that World on Fire be a part of her kit that isn't affected by Duration. Problem is, the devs don't want you to have any skill up 100% of the time. The logical conclusion to ability spam would be not having to spam at all, just turning it into a passive effect - and that's bad, because it doesn't encourage skillful use.

 

Of course, nothing about World on Fire encouraged skill to start with, so I have no idea why they'd start to care about that now.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Archwizard

[Defendor]

In my opinion WoF needs a rework, not a buff or a nerf. Right now, it's...

 

1) Weak. This could be partially solved via a buff, but it's also...

2) Random. This isn't a huge problem by itself, but the skill is also...

3) Boring. It's just damage. Some people may like it, but everyone finds it...

4) Distracting. It obscures your view and annoys your team mates. Essentially, it's a party-wide debuff.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Defendor

[Phoenix86]

this is not about WoF reworks...

 

this is about the upcoming "Ember buff" that at first looked so "WOOOHOOOO" because everyone wanted it so bad that the simple mentioning of Ember by Scott made everyone jump on the hypetrain

 

Meanwhile it seems -to me- that is not so shiny at all, at least for her Ulti.

 

Not to mention that it's like 1 year we say Fire Blast is redundant with WoF and all frames have a skill dedicated to self surviveabiltiy... everyone but Ember

[Azawarau]

Last i checked rift works on toggleables. Unless it was changed recently

 

Also you have to consider the gains of the change

 

Without as many mod clashes youll have increase range and duration on your powers with fewer drawbacks

 

Actually being able to viably kill things will make the cost more than worth it

[Haukai]

Here's the thing: World on Fire will still be affected by duration according to Scott.

I am not calling you a liar, but I must have totally missed that part, and if it is indeed true, I thank you for stating it here! <3

The main issue with World on Fire as of right now is that it is almost un-moddable. Why (you may ask) ? Because :

– You need duration, for obvious reasons, there is absolutely no point in a 2 second WoF (World on Fire), especially with the slow casting time.

– You need strength, because otherwise, WoF is useless against enemies past level 15+ (Long story short, it's not useless, but with the low DPS, your WoF doesn't damage many targets at the same time, and it's extremely bad against crowds if it doesn't 2-3 hit enemies, if it does, it's freaking amazing!)

– You need efficiency, once again for obvious reasons.

– You need range.

Well, why is this such a problem (you may ask, or may not) ?

To have strength + efficiency, you'll most likely use Intensify & Transient Fortitude (= strength) and Fleeting Expertise + Streamline (= efficiency)

(Blind rage screws up your efficiency, hence why you wouldn't use it unless you plan on spamming energy pods/plates or have an E vamp Trin/Limbo in the squad)

Having both Transient Fortitude and Fleeting completely screws up your duration, so you have to use Narrow Minded to have a somewhat decent duration (about 10 seconds).

The problem is, if you use Narrow Minded, you completely kill your range, so you have to use Overextended to counterract its effects.

And while using Overextended, you kill the strength you so badly worked on.

TL;DR : Modding World on Fire is a vicious circle, and unless you give up on one of the following (Strength, Efficiency, Range, Duration), your build will be mediocre at best.

[Archwizard]

I am not calling you a liar, but I must have totally missed that part, and if it is indeed true, I thank you for stating it here! <3

The main issue with World on Fire as of right now is that it is almost un-moddable. 

 

-          World On Fire is now a toggle ability with a 50 Energy cost on cast. It will drain energy over time as well as consider your power duration (affected by mods).

 

Yeah, not something that's getting fixed.

[RealPandemonium]

Make threads after changes actually come out.  Useless rabble-rousing threads are incredibly annoying.

[Phoenix86]

Make threads after changes actually come out.  Useless rabble-rousing threads are incredibly annoying.

 

as well as  replies that add nothing to the thread i guess

 

Ok so... what did u say? just confirmed to be 5 energy drain/sec on top of 50 energy cost!

That makes no changes on the total cost for 10 seconds activity and you cant keep it up because it is affected by a set duration influenced by mods.

 

to sum it up what u got is: you can end it sooner. gg

 

oh well.. at least Ember got an increased movement speed... that's the only buff that matters...

(i wouldnt be surprised if, once verified, it will be minimal)

Edited January 22, 2015 by Phoenix86

[Ryjeon]

~ Using Ember Changes Megathread ~

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ryjeon

[Azawarau]

as well as  replies that add nothing to the thread i guess

 

Ok so... what did u say? just confirmed to be 5 energy drain/sec on top of 50 energy cost!

That makes no changes on the total cost for 10 seconds activity and you cant keep it up because it is affected by a set duration influenced by mods.

 

to sum it up what u got is: you can end it sooner. gg

 

oh well.. at least Ember got an increased movement speed... that's the only buff that matters...

(i wouldnt be surprised if, once verified, it will be minimal)

5/ sec without mods

 

If youre going to say that then at least be accurate

 

Also no range penalty from adding duration and no power penalty for adding range to make up for the lack of range from duration

 

Also more mod slots

 

Under the assumption the energy cost is about the same its still more efficient than before

[xmegarockx]

the new thing that fireblast do as LOS line of sight is funny

[Azawarau]

the new thing that fireblast do as LOS line of sight is funny

So is the Eximus fire blast

[RealPandemonium]

as well as  replies that add nothing to the thread i guess

 

Ok so... what did u say? just confirmed to be 5 energy drain/sec on top of 50 energy cost!

That makes no changes on the total cost for 10 seconds activity and you cant keep it up because it is affected by a set duration influenced by mods.

 

to sum it up what u got is: you can end it sooner. gg

 

oh well.. at least Ember got an increased movement speed... that's the only buff that matters...

(i wouldnt be surprised if, once verified, it will be minimal)

I'm disappointed again.  They should just let us end it early instead of making it a toggle and denying use energy restores and ES while it's active.  This isn't even a toggle.  :(

[Phoenix86]

5/ sec without mods

 

If youre going to say that then at least be accurate

 

Also no range penalty from adding duration and no power penalty for adding range to make up for the lack of range from duration

 

Also more mod slots

 

Under the assumption the energy cost is about the same its still more efficient than before

 

ofc everything is without mods:

 

No efficiency mods:

 

100 energy cost before (Energy Siphon will restore from 6 up to 24 energy during its duration, depending how many in the party have it equipped)

 

50+50 energy cost after (Energy Siphon doesnt work and, probably neither EV or Team Energy Restore will work *needs to be tested* )

 

"Before" it's already winning over "After"

 

Adding streamline?

 

70 energy cost before

 

35+35 energy cost after

 

The ratio doesnt change and the fact you cant regain energy from other external sources it's a penalty to the new WoF no matter what.

 

And since it's still affected by duration (like Limbo Cataclysm or Mirage Prism) you wont free up any slot. You still need duration

[Phoenix86]

Seriously DE,

 

here's how to fix World on Fire

 

- Leave Energy Drain, fine, remove max Duration limit

- Increase target's cap from 3 to at least 5 or let power strenght work on it

- Lower the Energy Drain from 5/sec to 4/sec, Increase initial cost to 60

- Increase base Range from 15 to 20m (is it called World on Fire for fun or what?)

- Innate 33% or 50% proc Heat status effect chance (wtf dont ya burn while the WHOLE WORLD is on Fire?!)

Edited January 22, 2015 by Phoenix86

[Coatduck]

*** DISCLAIMER ***

 

This is just a speculation because we dont know exactly how much will be the energy drain/sec for World on Fire.

 

*** DISCLAIMER ***

 

Now we know the energy drain cost is 5/sec

 

Old speculation before the update:

So Ember is getting a buff... about time!

 

I was so happy... but after reading over and over Scott's post... yeah the buff is there, but WoF looks like is getting a slight nerf.

 

Please, read again the disclaimer and hear me out:

 

Right now World on Fire costs 100 Energy and lasts 10 seconds (unmodded)

 

The new World on Fire is going to be a toggleable ability with an initial casting cost of 50 and then a energy/sec drain.

 

Now... when can we consider this a buff -or not- if we dont know how much this energy drain is going to be?

 

Assuming it will be a 5 energy/sec drain, after 10 seconds the ability will cost exactly 100 (like the current one)

BUT, like all energy draining ability, we will not be able to take advantage of energy regen from Energy Siphons or Energy Vampire or Limbo Rift or Energy Restore.

So we can safely assume that this is already a NERF in efficiency for Ember.

 

If it's going to be more than 5 energy/sec the NERF will be even more noticiable.

If it's going to be 4 energy/sec or less it will actually be a buff... for a while.

 

So my conclusion is that yes, Ember is getting a buff, but probably World on Fire is getting a NERF (big or small is yet to determinate)

 

IMHO World on Fire was already good, the one skill that needed a toggle to TRULY SINERGIZE with WoF and Ember's fast paced playstyle was ACCELERANT!

 

Imagine running around with a toggle'd Accelerant + WoF... even without dmg buffs it would greatly improve Ember!

 

PS: i still dunno what Duration is going to affect in a toggleable ability... number of explosions/sec? meh, so we still crippled with 4 sides to upgrade (strenght, range, duration, efficiency) and not 3 like most of the frames

 

So now that we know how much the drain is we can safely assume that this is a slight nerf to WoF efficiency

 

100 energy cost before (Energy Siphon will restore from 6 up to 24 energy during its duration, depending how many in the party have it equipped)

 

50+50 energy cost after (Energy Siphon doesnt work and, probably neither EV or Team Energy Restore will work *needs to be tested* )

 

"Before" it's already winning over "After"

 

The ratio doesnt change if we add in Efficiency mods, therefore "After" can never win and the fact you cant regain energy from other external sources it's a penalty to the new WoF no matter what.

 

The only feature we got for World on Fire is that we can end it earlier and, for every second we anticipate its end we can save 10% of its energy cost, giving up dmg.

 

And the fun part is that, if you see no enemies and decide to end it earlier to save from 45 (assuming you end it after only 1 second duration LOL)  to 5 energy (if you make it last 9 seconds), and the room after is full of foes you have to cast it again effectivaly wasting a lot more energy!

 

And since it's still affected by duration (like Limbo Cataclysm or Mirage Prism) you wont free up any slot in your loadout.

You still need duration to determinate how long it can last (not to mention it is useful for Accelerant, etc)

Try adding duration. The ability uses more energy because it lasts longer. Max duration almost doubles it's energy consumption, whereas before it cost the same amount no matter the duration. Unless you end your World on Fire before the 9 second mark, this is a complete nerf, the only buff being about a .5 second casting time reduction.

[Phoenix86]

Try adding duration. The ability uses more energy because it lasts longer. Max duration almost doubles it's energy consumption, whereas before it cost the same amount no matter the duration. Unless you end your World on Fire before the 9 second mark, this is a complete nerf, the only buff being about a .5 second casting time reduction.

 

Ya well, situation is even worst if you add duration yes, i didnt mention it becase usually you will go with the combo: 

Blind Rage (r8) + Fleeting Expertise (r5) + Transitient Fortitude (max) + Narrow Minded (r8) + Stretch (max) + Streamline (max)

(which brings the total duration  +/- 5% buff, so still 10 secs, in favor of a massive 135% dmg boost and 35% efficiency boost and only penalizes the range by 9%)

[Azawarau]

I'm disappointed again.  They should just let us end it early instead of making it a toggle and denying use energy restores and ES while it's active.  This isn't even a toggle.  :(

They didnt fix a thing with ember

 

They just band aided her up

 

ofc everything is without mods:

 

No efficiency mods:

 

100 energy cost before (Energy Siphon will restore from 6 up to 24 energy during its duration, depending how many in the party have it equipped)

 

50+50 energy cost after (Energy Siphon doesnt work and, probably neither EV or Team Energy Restore will work *needs to be tested* )

 

"Before" it's already winning over "After"

 

Adding streamline?

 

70 energy cost before

 

35+35 energy cost after

 

The ratio doesnt change and the fact you cant regain energy from other external sources it's a penalty to the new WoF no matter what.

 

And since it's still affected by duration (like Limbo Cataclysm or Mirage Prism) you wont free up any slot. You still need duration

If it were a real toggle then this would be different

 

You know what im talking about so stop playing dumb

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

yes, must say i'm disappointed, too. also by the reduced casting time, which only affects the cooldown phase. it looks awkward (the "boom" sound seems to be off with the animation) and doesn't make much of a difference, the time before she hits the ground should've been reduced... OH WELL.

[Phoenix86]

 

If it were a real toggle

 

 

I guess we can end this right here