Cheese Needs To Be Removed From The Game.

[dmirtygorachyov]

LoR/Lor NM/JV = permanent invul for whole party from bless, indefinite global CCs, infinite energy from EV

 

Heiracon= Bastille spam = last forever until you cant kill cell carriers anymore

 

Resource farming= Nekros/hydroid camping bashing 3 and 4 key until your keyboard breaks 

 

Defense/MD/triton= Frost shield, unfailable mission

 

Draco= RJ excal/EV trin/buffer/frost

 

Exterminates = Mirage synoid/ ember 

 

How do we solve this problem? Remove/remake trinity. It's a tough decision that will ultimately be better for the game. The only communication that actually happens in game is EV? EV? EV? or BLESS? BLESS PLS?. It gets old waltzing through a grineer camp being immortal for the 100th time just to get an arcane.

 

If the ev trin dies, everyone dies, if the bless trin dies, everyone dies. Warframe is a third person shooter, not a third person cheese cake.

 

A character like Trin is extremely bad for the game, if anyone has played DoTA and remembered the original Naix, its the same reason that character was remade. No counterplay, No strategy, just pick and win. Invulerable to spells, Infinite scaling on DPS and Lifesteal, Perma slow, everything a terribly designed character needs. Trinity is the exact same thing and is everything that is wrong with the Warframe.

 

Its going to be hard the first few games back, maybe they would have to nerf most enemy damage to compensate, but in the long term it will bring more varied gameplay and will actually interest the shooter market much more.

 

Nekros and hydroid is also another example of horrible design. If you want to farm a resource, you need them otherwise you are really just wasting your time. The game needs to reward players for good play, not only for good comp/maxed out frames. Bashing 3 and 4 for 40 minutes to collect 4k plastids is worse than chopping yew logs in Runescape, atleast in runescape you get to alt tab and read something, but Nekros, you have to keep your finger on the trigger at all time... for ever... and ever..

 

 

Gameplay should reward good gunplay, good resource management, good mobility, good build optimisation. If a player moves efficiently and shoots well, he should be rewarded more than the player that doesn't. If a player is better at using the Tigris than the tonkor, the reward scaling should be appropriate. If a player knows when to use his spells, he should be rewarded for his patience and timing. If a player wants to farm plastids, he has to earn it by playing the game well, not by sitting there trading your time for resources like a mobile game.

 

What is cheese?

 

Cheese is something that completely removes the challenge factor from the game.

 

example >>>

 

 

More updates:

 

 

Why are sorties aka" endgame content." Soloable so easily without pizzas/ev? Are they really even end game content by definition? Imagine if I had a squad of cheesers, it would just make any gameplay non existant of challenge. Are raids even end game content if all you need is a maxed frame, and your weapon doesn't matter? Mid game content sure, but I wouldn't call it end game at all. My tonkor is thirsty. Give me something I have to kill that isn't 60 min survivals or defence.

 

Updates: The point of this post is mainly with how cheesy this game is in the end game, and how cheese will effect the development of warframe, its loot rewards, and its enemy scaling.

 

Example>>>

(Note that this is an example of how to reduce the prominence of a certain character in a certain game mode to create more open ended and interesting game play)

 

This is how the average Warframer solves a problem in the current gamestate. Jim just got a T3Defence void key. Jim is excited to try his luck at some primes, so he just hops in with a bunch of randoms and hops into the game without too much knowledge on game composition and the Meta. He fails his first mission after wave 15. What should Jim do? He can...

 

A. Level up is frame/mods/weapons so he can better deal with the enemy scaling (typical  approach by many MMORPGS, pretty reasonable)

 

B. Better understand warframes shooting/enemy/ movement mechanics to actually become a better player (common approach in shooters)

 

C. Skip the content and just play easier missions which drop less worthwhile loot

 

D. Google how to win warframe defense missions, and it will push him towards looking for Frost and EV trin to compensate for the horrible defense mission design that is balanced around these two characters.

 

Guess which one he is going to choose?  D is the easiest path, so why should Jim even bother to better understand that he can CC enemies by bullet jumping? That he can abuse enemy turn rates by side strafing around them? Why should he bother learning how to dodge mortars when he can just camp behind an infinite shield? Why should he question the poor design choice of Defense when he can just get Frost and walk through it without any form of thought?

 

What can we do about this? We can add a new game mode/ change defense . Instead of defending a cryo pod (which makes frost an extreme necessity) we can treat it as a defend yourself type game mode, an exterminate/survival hybrid. You have to defend  yourself (no cryopod or objective) until you run out of revives, and then you get rewarded based on how well you did. Spawns get faster/harder, but it fuels a multiplier that increases the quality of your loot. This mode will encourage a balance between survivability, dps, and supports as players would have to deal with defending themselves and damaging enemies, creating more thought out team compositions. Having too much DPS would make it more risk/reward, having more survivability would reduce the speed which you gain loot,  so it is up to the player to choose which path/composition they want. 

 

These are the types of approaches DE should take for future mission desgins, its not that you cant have your timesink modes aswell, im sure alot of players enjoy that, but there are plenty who don't. Some players like risk/ reward, someplayres like gunplay over cheese, someplayers like to kill things for plastids, not just sit there spamming the same abilities over and over again.

Thanks DE <3

 

 

Since people like memes, I'll add some of my own. >>>

 

 

Edited January 15, 2016 by dmirtygorachyov

[0Skyrim0]

Uhm... after a long brainstorming and getting attracted... what am I talking about?

Simply no.

[Pridesfury]

Trinity will get reworked in time but she wont get the solid nerf your thinking of.

[Eminem2420]

hm...let me think about that...no. 

[Censium]

Am I the only one who misread "Cheese" as "Chinese"? I had my popcorn ready and everything.

[NinjinDjinn]

[Kai_Shiba]

[Reliant213]

With the current state of enemies in the game, especially regarding sorties, nerfing any sort of commonly used, or, dare I say, "OP," Warframe would cause an unnecessary amount of community uproar, and completely neglect the actual problem: enemy scaling/damage/abilities/CC/take your pick.

 

Largely everything in the game regarding difficulty and balance needs a good looking at, and nerfing anything and everything left and right isn't the way to do that. 

Edited January 11, 2016 by Reliant213

[Misgenesis]

The rabid defence force is onto you.

 

Much work is needed to fix all of this. Not just frame changes.

[Gurpgork]

First things first... Take this, OP, you'll need it.



Tone aside, while I do agree that Trinity needs a pretty big rework, it won't completely eliminate cheesing, since we still have energy pancakes and just a generally a broken energy economy. An energy economy rework has to start with Trinity, but it can't end there.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Gurpgork

[Fate0]

Another nerf thread.....i find it offensive when one is trying to dictate how others should play this game. Simply if these frames bother you so much or seems to take away some of your personal challenge then by all means do not play with players that use these frames or play solo. This seems to be all these forums are consisting of is just more and more complaining, whinning, and nerfing.

[Arkezuli]

I actually expected valid complaints about cheese tactics used to farm unreasonable amounts of everything in endless high level missions...

I'm disappointed...

[dmirtygorachyov]

First things first... Take this, OP, you'll need it.

Tone aside, while I do agree that Trinity needs a pretty big rework, it won't completely eliminate chasing, since we still have energy pancakes and just a generally a broken energy economy. An energy economy rework has to start with Trinity, but it can't end there.

 

Energy costs can be readjusted, personally I wish energy costs were just removed from the game and characters used cooldowns instead. But this idea is sure to trigger alot of players. usually most frames have only about 1-2 useful abilities, so why not just remove the other 2? Give them unique passives instead that actually influence gameplay, instead of 2 filler abilities that actually add nothing practice.

 

Alternatives would be passive energy regeneration, etc, skill spamming just isn't what a third person shooter is about. I know that its an mmo, but I prefered it if shooting stayed integral to the end game instead of it just being a way to get through the early game.

Edited January 11, 2016 by dmirtygorachyov

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Another nerf thread.....i find it offensive when one is trying to dictate how others should play this game. Simply if these frames bother you so much or seems to take away some of your personal challenge then by all means do not play with players that use these frames or play solo. This seems to be all these forums are consisting of is just more and more complaining, whinning, and nerfing.

You think these things don't affect everyone? Did you play the game before Nullifiers and new Infested and all the other counterplay stuff for cheese, much of which ended up only hurting everyone because of the few who cheesed? Have you considered that banning someone from pubs is, in fact, affecting how they play?

This has always been an annoying, frustrating way of shutting down discussions on the Forums that makes no logical sense, is hypocritical, and ignores what has already happened in this game because of that mindset.

[dmirtygorachyov]

Another nerf thread.....i find it offensive when one is trying to dictate how others should play this game. Simply if these frames bother you so much or seems to take away some of your personal challenge then by all means do not play with players that use these frames or play solo. This seems to be all these forums are consisting of is just more and more complaining, whinning, and nerfing.

 

This post isn't about nerfs, this post is about influencing the overall direction of warframe. Its currently a cheese cake third person mmo, I want it to be a shooter. It is marketed as a shooter, Its time we accept that it really isn't anymore. I never said anything about nerfs. I want quality gunplay, rewards for player ability, and not just a 1 button solve all problems type abilities. The endgame is horribly boring because of reliance on characters such as Trin and Nekros. The core shooting mechanics are excelent, but the game doesn't encourage you to master it at all. You completely missed the point of this post. I would do raids solo, if I didnt't have to have guys to sit on buttons. And If I do get guys who want to sit on buttons, you bet your unicorn they want a bless/ev trin.

 

This game is probably the spiritual successor to Unreal tournament in third person, its a waste to see such quality gunplay/movement mechanics go to waste to such a cheesy endgame meta. Game was fun when you were MR 2 and you never heard of trinity. Now that you know everything, game is extremely bland.

Edited January 11, 2016 by dmirtygorachyov

[Chipputer]

I think the funniest part about your post is that you name multiple frames and situations and then go, "NERF TRINITY. THAT'LL SOLVE IT."

[Suzaku4489]

Do everyone a favor and never get into game design.

[p3z1]

This post isn't about nerfs, this post is about influencing the overall direction of warframe. Its currently a cheese cake third person mmo, I want it to be a shooter. It is marketed as a shooter, Its time we accept that it really isn't anymore. I never said anything about nerfs. I want quality gunplay, rewards for player ability, and not just a 1 button solve all problems type abilities. The endgame is horribly boring because of reliance on characters such as Trin and Nekros. The core shooting mechanics are excelent, but the game doesn't encourage you to master it at all. You completely missed the point of this post. I would do raids solo, if I didnt't have to have guys to sit on buttons. And If I do get guys who want to sit on buttons, you bet your unicorn they want a bless/ev trin.

 

This game is probably the spiritual successor to Unreal tournament in third person, its a waste to see such quality gunplay/movement mechanics go to waste to such a cheesy endgame meta. Game was fun when you were MR 2 and you never heard of trinity. Now that you know everything, game is extremely bland.

 

Go play PvP, a lot less cheese there.

 

Edit: And feels a lot more like UT series

Edited January 11, 2016 by p3z1

[deviantru]

We get it, most people dont like the "farm/grind/push-a-button-to-win" type, but I also think you have a valid point. I also think that others that say otherwise also have a valid point. As the argument stands;

Some do not like to play with spammers or boring 'ol grind buttons, but that is just as it is my friend, a preference. Yes it makes the game boring, yes it lacks innovativity, yes you dont like that stuff. However, they happen to like it. If so, let them use their frames however they please. You on the other hand may play with any frame with however you please as well. You might want to look at high level play as well. Im talking about high tier missions; enemies that can 1 shot you even if you happen to have a maxed vitality, enemies so many and so hard to kill that even a god-mode trinity bleeds out. The game is still trying to balance itself out to cater to newbies and veterans alike, if you want a serious game without those spammers, try teaming up with other people and aim for high tier missions. A high tier mission would more or less have a more variety of players using their own strategies other than spamming a skill.

Only point is; trinity imo is already balanced in so far as her involvment with low tier missions to enable the team to farm/grind/spam, and to high tiers where her purpose to heal, regen, and energy tank is needed the most.

[SvZz]

Energy costs can be readjusted, personally I wish energy costs were just removed from the game and characters used cooldowns instead. But this idea is sure to trigger alot of players. usually most frames have only about 1-2 useful abilities, so why not just remove the other 2? Give them unique passives instead that actually influence gameplay, instead of 2 filler abilities that actually add nothing practice.

 

Alternatives would be passive energy regeneration, etc, skill spamming just isn't what a third person shooter is about. I know that its an mmo, but I prefered it if shooting stayed integral to the end game instead of it just being a way to get through the early game.

Don't play the game then... DE did not make it for u. Give useful feedback not remove this and that to please your own feelings, you trying to make the game it never started out as. If DE change it your way, those who like it as is will leave.

[Thelonious]

tbh I don't think the devs care anymore

 

inb4 lock

[Gurpgork]

Energy costs can be readjusted, personally I wish energy costs were just removed from the game and characters used cooldowns instead. But this idea is sure to trigger alot of players. usually most frames have only about 1-2 useful abilities, so why not just remove the other 2? Give them unique passives instead that actually influence gameplay, instead of 2 filler abilities that actually add nothing practice.

 

Alternatives would be passive energy regeneration, etc, skill spamming just isn't what a third person shooter is about. I know that its an mmo, but I prefered it if shooting stayed integral to the end game instead of it just being a way to get through the early game.

Funny that you mention cooldowns. I was thinking of mentioning that myself, but thought better of it.

With our current energy economy, we could honestly completely leave energy cost untouched, implement cooldowns, and still not limit ability usage too much. Although this is probably better saved for a wall-of-text kind of thread with lots of tl;dr sections.

I disagree with removing half of every frame's abilities. I'd much rather have all four abilities brought up into usefulness, because that would make the game more interesting, whereas removing 2 abilities from every frame would make the game less interesting. Game changing passives just wouldn't fill that gap.

[Chipputer]

With our current energy economy, we could honestly completely leave energy cost untouched, implement cooldowns, and still not limit ability usage too much. 

Why not just pull a Smash Bros and just give diminishing returns for each consecutive use of a power? Or just increase energy cost by a small percentage for each consecutive use?

[deviantru]

Why not just pull a Smash Bros and just give diminishing returns for each consecutive use of a power? Or just increase energy cost by a small percentage for each consecutive use?

I like the idea of more energy per consecutive use before the cd time is finished, but how about abilities which are toggled?

[Anatolius]

Removing any one frame doesn't fix the problem with easily crafted energy and health restores

Its a much deeper problem thst stems to alot of sectors in this game (ability economy, enemy scaling, moding freedom, ad im sure more )

Until that is fixed, we can't do anything but use what we have and do what we can.