UncleWalrus
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Posts posted by UncleWalrus
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Assuming for the moment that the issue actually was a real multihit bug, (which I doubt) the question still remains, why not fix that instead of jury-rigging three quarters of a workaround on short notice?
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5 minutes ago, Kayll said:
Where did this Harrow reasoning even come from?
The Arca Plasmor still procs arcanes that require you to headshot the enemy,so I think its pretty safe to say it still works with Harrows augment.
I'd test this myself but seeing how its currently dealing 0 damage on headshots,and the augment requires you to kill something its not possible atm.Correlation, mostly. It was fine before, now it's suddenly not fine when this other thing came out. We shall have to see, whenever they get around to changing that x0 headshot multiplier into an x1, which was prolly how this mess happened in the first place.
5 minutes ago, Kayll said:
@UncleWalrus
It's clear something wonky is going on with the Plasmor and headshots,which is why they attempted they change they did,and your friend probably just never has noticed it before in the heat of battle, since the bug occurs on very specific spots.Also, both me and him pretty much mained the AP ever since it came out. I've used it to pop single enemies plenty of times, and had been using Vicious Spread, so shots would go all over the place, even above the target. I don't recall it ever having done that.
Which, tho, brings me back to the issue of bandaid fixing. If the AP is somehow multi-hitting on headshots (which they made no mention of), why not fix that behavior instead, leave the headshot bonus as it is, and make it behave completely normally, like every other gun does? It just boggles the mind.
@OvisCaedo Excellent observation. It does seem to not belch out that many numbers every time it lands a grazing hit and deals damage.
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@Cytobel @Kayll My mate has given me an excellent hypothesis for the multiple damage popup issue. (Which, I will admit, I have NEVER seen occur before the "fix".)
Its most likely the way hit detection is coded: I'm assuming the game checks, several times per second, whether the projectile has dealt damage to the enemy yet. Since it dealt 0 damage, it lets it deal damage. Which is 0. So it does no damage. So the game checks whether the projectile etc etc.
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8 hours ago, peterc3 said:
The augment works as intended for every other weapon.
It doesn't. Amprex breaks it wide open. I have demonstrated this in my OP in another thread, which you posted in without reading.
As do presumably to other headshot-happy weapons and beam weapons in general.8 hours ago, peterc3 said:People seem to have these urgent, dire problems with the game, nerfs they find dangerous. What do these mean when they keep playing the game?
It's not the nerf itself I find dangerous, but the way it was implemented, since it suggests an unwillingness to address underlying issues and a preference for slapdash, symptomatic approaches.
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@GeoffFromAccounting More or less, yeah.
My issue isn't even with future proofing in and of itself. Derp things will happen, and, on occasion, the derp is glorious and enhances gameplay. (Speed Nova, for instance.)
It's not even testing. DE have been testing things a lot more than the used to. Speaking of Mag, remember that one update that tried to make Polarize less braindead by making it Line of Sight, but because warframes don't have LoS to themselves, Mag couldn't polarize her own shields anymore? That was truly stupid and would have taken a twenty second test to see. But nothing comparatively stupid has happened in recent memory IMO. They are improving on that front.My issue is symptomatic fixes that fail to resolve underlying issues while also disrupting unrelated behavior.
This without even bringing into question the earnestness of a "We forgot that all weapons can headshot and left this behavior unchanged for four months." justification.
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1 hour ago, Cytobel said:
EDIT (again): OKAY! It seems there's something interesting happening with beam weapons and punch through along with Lasting Covenant. Welp, no more headshots for the worst weapon category in game OR there's a rework going to happen here.
Interesting, how?
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22 minutes ago, Cytobel said:
Y'all know, if the main reason for this change was an Augment mod, then all that needed to be done was a more careful review of the mod, perhaps even reworking it.
Hell, I need to check out this Augment along side Ignus, just to see if this is a thing. After that I can roll Flux with punch through, Quanta Vandal with punch through, a Hema... I mean, if it comes down to something being borked from launch by ONE weapon with punch through, then all we need to do is abuse the hairy fuckles off of this Augment until it's actually pulled. After all, that's looking about as likely as anything at this point, given the possibility of abuse.
Rather than targeting this ONE WEAPON, they could have looked at the mechanic of the Augment. Instead they didn't think things through and now we have a nerfed gun and a gross Augment.
My criticism, and the idea of pulling punch through from the Arca instead of this heavy debuff, are based off the fact that little was done to fix "the problem" and instead we had this mess crop up. After all, you can add punch through back to the Arca Plasmor if it's taken off of it baseline (at the heafty cost of a mod slot, restricting builds), or you can sit and spin because there is no way to get headshot damage back once it's disabled. Hell, it's not as if the Arca Plasmor was a game-breaker. It's just that it now falls off harder Destiny 2's playerbase...
Tried it with the Amprex (That other Corpus crit elemental weapon with massive reload and a tiny magazine that tends to get free headshots), and it is deeply silly. Arguably as silly as with the Arca Plasmor.
Linky. (Sorry for the nonexistant mic volume.)Lasting Covenant went from 30something seconds at the start to 85 seconds or something at the end, aiming at one Grineer's face until he died and letting the Amprex arc as it wanted, then kept zapping his corpse until it vanished or I had to reload.
Sure, you can argue, these are stationary targets and aiming's easy. Thing is, in most missions enemy density is going to be higher, so more arcing, and the enemies are still going to be either coming right at you, or hiding behind cover, so you can get a bead on their noggins reliably anyway. -
Just now, taiiat said:
- because Pull was fine. Greedy Pull made the Ability non LoS constrained. so that had to be fixed.
- i think you're missing the point of relative power scale. the Delta is enormous between the two Weapons you're talking about.
- but that's why the mechanical behavior doesn't matter. because the effectiveness of that with Ignis, is not particularly high compared to a lot of other options.
- Nope. Pull always worked without LoS. It doesn't need LoS today either, it just works in a cone in front of Mag. You can still pull enemies through walls and intervening terrain.
- Let's be honest. Most people will only see an enemy above level 100 in the Simulacrum. For the overwhelming majority of the playerbase, the 10k crits from an Amprex or the 20k ones from the Arca Plasmor are functionally interchangeable. And I know this thing is dead-killy at lvl60-100 since it's my go-to weapon on Assault Rifle Only sorties.
- So, let's have completely inconsistent mechanical behaviors because... not all weapons are created equal? What?
18 minutes ago, peterc3 said:Dangerous? To whom?
They altered a weapon for interacting with the rest of the game in a way that was unintended. If anything, the number of threads spawned shows that the nerf was justified.
Congratulations on not reading the original post!
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4 minutes ago, Kayll said:
I never said anything like that.
The same fix was applied to the tonkor, by this logic if they nerfed the weapons damage by 50% but it was still able to headshot bringing it back to how it is now, you'd probably still be here on the forums complaining cause your overpowered weapon isn't as strong anymore, not anything to do with the mechanics of headshotting.You did. You quoted their stated reasoning, which implies that they didn't foresee the weapon getting consistent headshots. I call bogus on that. If it truly didn't fit their vision, they'd have changed it posthaste, like they keep changing the Quartakk.
Also, false equivalence. For one thing, that's a bit presumptuous of you, innit?
For another all launchers were changed to have that behavior in a blanket update. No one launcher was singled out and given anomalous behavior.
For a third, I used the Tonkor just fine, before and after the headshot change. IMO it was less of a factor because the Tonkor is wildly erratic and, with Firestorm, has a splash radius comparable to some warframe power ranges. I only stopped using it when the sodding thing started killing me. But that's neither here nor there, innit? -
Just now, Kayll said:
The weapon was changed to be closer to how it was envisioned when it was designed,a weapon capable of clearing a hall way simply and with ease.
It should not be rewarded headshots if you hit them more often than not while not even attempting to headshot,at that point you are just giving the weapon extra damage in a silly way.You're seriously expecting me to believe Digital Extremes forgot weapons can headshot. Really, now.
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3 minutes ago, taiiat said:
so let's go down the list of things you missed the target on...
- Greedy Pull was an Augment for complete automation of Gameplay. the Augment was a problem itself.
- Amprex is nowhere near the power level of Arca Plasmor.
- Arca Plasmor and Shotguns as a whole are Overpowered, wholesale. Arca Plasmor breaks things regardless of Warframe because of casually Weakpoint Critting everything in sight (well not anymore).
- Ignis is only good because it can hit entire rooms at once. per Target it's pretty weak.
- Vex Armor will get fixed eventually.
- Then if the Greedy Pull augment was the problem, why not change Greedy Pull, and not baseline pull? It's equally daft.
- An Ability Strength Harrow can buff it to be comparatively oneshotty.
- And the Amprex doesn't casually crit everything in sight? Besides, if shotties are overpowered, why not make everything as comparatively overpowered instead? Might as well embrace the power creep since it's so deeply ingrained.
- The argument was about mechanical behavior, not effectiveness.
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It's been nearly 3 years. I have doubts.
Just now, rc1309 said:Correlation =/= Causation
Fallacy fallacy. Just because it doesn't imply it by necessity doesn't mean it can't.
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The change to the Arca Plasmor, wherein headshots no longer benefit from the headshot multiplier, harks back to Digital Extremes' once-consistent approach to set the house on fire because the doors are draughty.
- Exhibit 1, a little anecdote about Mag.
Way back in 2015, when Mesa was the be-all, end-all of static defense, Mag got Greedy Pull. A convenient little augment that allowed the squishy, energy-starved magnetic frame to keep itself (and her team) supplied with ammunition and energy, and conveniently get the loot drops as a bonus.
Now, since Mesa couldn't move with Peacemaker up and you can't restore energy with plates while using channeled abilities, some Mags found a new life as an oversized Carrier, sucking up loot and energy to feed the Mesa.
The problem, reckoned someone at DE, wasn't Mesa getting energy, but Mag pulling it in. So, instead of doing something reasonable, like cutting Mesa's pickup range to 0 while Peacemaker is up, they decided to change Pull entirely, making it Line of Sight, augment or not.
Let me rephrase this: Digital Extremes nerfed Mag because Mesa was too powerful.
- Exhibit 2. The Amprex.
Also harking back to the past, this time to 2014, the Amprex is a primary weapon boasting elemental damage, good status, excellent crit chance and crit damage and could hit vast numbers of enemies due to arcing and innate punch-through, and was infamous for racking up easy headshots. Its downsides are a viciously tiny magazine (compared to ammo consumption) and a punishingly long reload animation.
Sound familiar?
One of the reasons I love the Arca Plasmor is how much like the Amprex its behavior is. The Corpus make nifty guns. So, on a hunch, I decided to try out Lasting Covenant with my Amprex.
Link to the video of the test. Please excuse my low mic volume; I have never captured my own mic while playing before, so the settings were out of whack.
As you can see, even with minimal aiming, the Amprex merrily hits multiple enemies, arcing from head to head and scoring headshot kills, extending the duration of Lasting Covenant to just under 90 seconds on a mere 20 enemies, from having started out at 30.
- The issue.
The Arca Plasmor was introduced in early September 2017. The weapon has remained unchanged for four and a half months and has existed as an amusing and satisfying alternative to the ubiquity of the Vaykor Hek and the Tigris Prime.
Despite many claims otherwise, this weapon was far from overused, being a consistent 3/5 Riven disposition, occasionally jumping to 2/5, placing it in merely above-average usage.
Suddenly, the weapon is too powerful, because... it allows Harrow to sustain his augment indefinitely with little effort. Thus, instead of doing something reasonable like giving the augment a small ICD or capping its effect to only the first kill per every shot, someone decided to remove a major function of one particular crit weapon, because something-something "accuracy". Meanwhile the Vaykor Hek can shoot the wings off a fly on the other side of a room.
Again, to rephrase, Digital Extremes nerfed the Arca Plasmor because Harrow's augment is too powerful.
Notice the pattern?- But what about...
-splash/explosive weapons?!
Well, for one, flamers can and always have been able to headshot, and one of the excellent features of crit Ignis Wraith builds is their tendency to headshot multiple targets due to punchthrough. Sound familiar?
For another, explosives can still headshot, it just takes a bit of effort convincing them to do it. Crit Penta builds are entirely legitimate, using the manual detonation on the grenade to make it airburst above targets' noggins.-balance!?
Vex Chroma exists and Tigris Prime/Sancti and the Vaykor Hek (or a regular Hek with the augment) can oneshot Sargas Ruk. This is not a valid argument, and you know damn well it isn't.-the controlled environment of the test!?
While the enemies were not moving, they were also not numerous. In actual missions you will easily face tight knots of 20 enemies at the same time, between which the Amprex will merrily arc, go for the face, and fuel the duration of Covenant.- As a conclusion:
The Arca Plasmor isn't the problem. Sitting at 3/5 Disposition for months proves that.
The actual problems, for there are two, and which the change to the Plasmor has failed to fix, are, for one, the behavior of Lasting Covenant, which can be fueled in bulk by the Amprex, the Atomos, Penta airbursts, and, I am sure, other clever ways I've yet to consider. Do all of these weapons deserve to have their ability to headshot removed, in violation of all mechanical consistency? No, of course not. What needs tweaking is Lasting Covenant itself, and how its effect can trigger.The other problem is Digital Extremes' unnerving tendency to break something unrelated just so one particular case action of something else is no longer an issue. The analogy with the torched house in the beginning of the post.
I hate the term "bandaid fix". I really do; the community has thrown it around for everything, including deep, systemic changes that eliminate the underlying issue entirely. But for once, I will use that turn of phrase.
The change to the Arca Plasmor is the epitome of a bandaid fix: it fails to solve the actual problem, while being disruptive to unrelated occurrences.
Please, revert the change to the weapon and fix the derp augment instead. -
On killing a Grineer holding a processor cell near or on a decorative terrain element, it is possible for the cell to fall and clip through it, becoming irretrievable.
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I'm trying to make a superspeed covert lethality dagger, and I'm wondering if it's still meta to craft the Peye grip with a Balla strike, or is the Plague Akwin now the better choice?
I'd rather not build an Akwin for nothing.
EDIT: Never mind, found it.
PEYE 1h -4 1.000 PLAGUE AKWIN 1h -2 0.950 So, the Peye is still infinitesimally better.
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The comma in the Infested Catalyst description "This refined toxin catalyst, has been formulated" should be removed as it separates the subject from the predicate.
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That's actually an excellent point. Temporal succession and causality are for other people as far as the Quills are concerned. Hadn't occurred to me. Cheers!
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I'm really not seeing it. I'm getting far better numbers on an Arca Plasmor with a nearly identical build to my Astilla. The only thing the latter does better over the former is engagements at extreme range, which is a moot point if you place your Magnetizes right.
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Idunno, I would buy a Hek handler voice in a heartbeat.
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Given Onkko's connection to the Unum and the Unum's apparent fondness for Gara, I'd expect Onkko to at least make passing mention of the fact you've remade Gara and are using her, even if you do only meet him in kidform. After all, Baro does greet you differently if you show up as Inaros.
Are there any such lines, to anyone's knowledge?
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Woo! It's just started working!
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Frankly, I like frames that get the job at hand done well and fast. This generally means a varied toolkit, good survivability and utility.
Frames I swear by: Loki (there are very few things a Loki can't do), Rhino (same), Mirage (same), Frost (the ancient point defense god).
Ambivalent: Desec Nekros (*mashing 3 intensifies*), Chroma (tank or farm), Excal (ow, my finger), Valk (where's the joint pain cream), Trin (incredibly useful, incredibly cancerous), Mag (the new point defense god), Ember (cc or starmap ext speedrun), Ivara (because screw Grineer lasers).
Things I will not touch out of my own volition: Zephyr (Dear god), Wukong (in heaven), Nezha (why are), Vauban (these frames), Nyx (a thing?).
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While considering the over-reliance on Carrier (for fairly understandable reason) that relegates most other sentinels and the Kubrows to being MR fodder or fashion statements, I thought that one possible alternative to carrier could be a Kavat breed.
A fluffy Kavat breed. So fluffy, in fact, that it generates a constant static charge that makes nearby pickups (6-8m max range, since it can move around) stick to it to be collected by its master, and will zap enemies in mele with an electric attack with a guaranteed electric proc.
Unfourtunately, mechanics aside, given how Kubrow physical appearances are irrespective of their breed, I doubt this would be within DE's desire to implement visually.
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Agreed. I'm not sure what they were thinking here.
They were thinking that the PC playerbase are a bunch of greedy dullards and wanted to make a fast buck. They're not entirely wrong thinking that given what we've seen happen in the Mutalist and Eyes of Blight events, as well as the slew of people who bought the warframe skins because they were limited availability.
While War isn't technically a purchase-only weapon, given you have to sacrifice a piece of gear you can only ever get a single copy of and is arguably BiS, it effectively is.
I had gained a lot of respect for DE due to having one of the best F2P models out there but now I know I'm not buying any more plat until DE stop playing silly buggers.
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It's been consistently happening on every run I've made. Generally the ones in hallways are fine, but the sideroom lockers tend to jam.
A good way of spotting them for me was seeing if my Kubrow's head clips into them when I get it at the still-untouched locker. If it does that on one or two of them then the entire "room" is borked.
Oddly, it's not tile-based. For instance, on one of the extraction tiles, my Kubrow was able to crack open the ones on the stairs and the set of 6 and in front of the extraction point, but the ones through the duct were ignored.
Also, I've attempted this without Master Thief on, just the Kubrow, lest that proc the locker open roll.
Banshee ability cost anomaly in Fissures
in General
Posted
When using the Resonating Quake augment for Banshee while in a Fissure mission, casting any ability will drain roughly 50 energy more, then immediately refund it.