The power level of combat is not the only way to adjust the challenge of the game.

[Loza03]

So, as far as I can tell, there's this division in the community on Warframe's difficulty. Half of the playerbase seems to want more, the other doesn't. From what I can gather, the crux of the problem is this: "I don't want to stop being a badass space ninja demigod."

And this a perfectly reasonable stance because that is the main draw of Warframe. However, I'm in the camp of wanting something more, even though I also don't want to lose my demigodhood. How, then, can both needs be met, particularly in the immortal case of Raids, which are typically 'optional' content that's harder than the standard content?

Well, in my mind the main issue is that the game is designed for four players, when in actuality each individual Tenno is as powerful as two or three people. So, in reality, most missions come down to each player being pretty much able to handle most whole mission alone. The closest thing to an exception to this is Interception, where players are divided in their attentions. With how fast towers fall, and how long they take to capture, this can sometimes lead to a snowball effect where two, three, or even all the towers get captured in quick succession, as players deal with not being able to bring their full power to bear across everywhere that it's needed. To me, this breeds a sense of urgency. Since I need to clear out existing enemies and then hold the position long enough to take it, I feel like I have to be as powerful as possible, because every second is precious, as every second spent is a second that the already captured towers could fall under attack before we can regain control over the situation, plunging team further into chaos. I find this exhilarating. However, it is also a pretty rare event, as it only happens when something has already gone wrong, otherwise each player has control over one tower and it's business as usual.

I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

In cases where the game is intended to challenge you - such as Raids - the game could use similar situations to now, but not designed around four players, but instead more like eight players, whilst there's still only four. Or, if when raids return, they go back to eight-player content, sixteen. That, in effect, is a limiter on player power, not by preventing it's use, but by making it's use have to be more strategic. 

Let's examine this in the lens of the previous example, interception, going with a four-player setup, and (somewhat crudely, and without the fine tuning of a proper design team), apply this philosophy. Right now, there tends to be one, or maybe two, towers that are attacked more heavily than the others, with other towers having similarly intense attacks, but less frequently so, with the situations I mentioned occurring mostly when the other towers get taken when the 'main' towers are still being attacked.

Imagine a custom, much larger tile, where each node now consists of two towers, which must both be captured to count, and the AI is programmed to spawn enemies for both towers when launching an 'attack' on that node. This poses an immediate problem for players, since the present system of a Tenno-per-tower no longer works. If the two towers of a node are sufficiently far apart or somehow separated in another way, then even most of the current nuke tactics will be unable to easily hold a tower solo. This forces players to cooperate more, as eventually, someone is going to need help with a tower. In turn, this leaves another node vulnerable. Now, this node is, as currently, not immediately leapt upon in most cases, not until the game decides to launch an attack there. But vulnerable it is, so when that attack comes, if the players are currently occupied, they have to decide "do we let this tower fall, and potentially leave ourselves in a bad spot later, or protect it and potentially get in a bad spot now?"

And therein lies the challenge and the intensity. The actual combat is unchanged. In fact, enemy power need not particularly increased from current levels, so long as spawn rates were made to match the new setup. You're as powerful as ever. But those intense moments where you feel like every second you can spare counts are more frequent, because the potential for a snowball effect is much greater.

Of course, this exact example is probably rife with its own problems. I'm not a professional game dev, just a fan with an interest in the subject. But the idea was less to produce a finished product, more a concept. I'm curious to see what people think of this.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

There is a very important problem with this, one that you hinted at a few times but never actually discussed: Rewards.

As you said, some players want a casual game, others want more difficulty.

So, if this new game mode is made, then what will be the rewards for completing it?

If they are good, everyone will want to do it, and then the casual players (like me) will quit in frustration from lack of teamwork in public groups (because forming a dedicated team takes time and effort I don't care to put in).

If they aren't good, then those who want a challenge won't bother because it won't be worth their time.

The problem is that those two points overlap. If you have rewards that are at all worth spending time on, the casuals will accuse the game of becoming 'elitist' (especially if any of those rewards are exclusive to this mode). If you have rewards not worth spending time on, the players wanting a challenge will ignore it and continue to complain about the 'lack of challenge'.

Of course, my own biased opinion isn't that the 'hardcore' players actually want challenge; they just want something that they can hold over other players' heads. This is the same problem that happens whenever event items/cosmetics come back. Thus, the problem can never be solved: the elite want something to hold over the plebeian heads, and the plebeians threaten to leave the game if anyone starts being able to hold stuff over their heads.

It's the same problem that DE so carefully avoided in trying to not be 'play 2 win'. I don't think they fully succeeded, but they certainly did better than most other games.

The problem can be stated even more generally like this: There are two groups. One wants to put in a lot of resources, the other wants to put in as few resources as possible. Both want to be rewarded for that, and both don't want to see the other rewarded at the expense of themselves, but want to be rewarded at the expense of the other side. The resources can be money (whales vs f2p players), time (elites vs weekend players), or effort (hardcore vs casual players). The problem is that you need both types of players to keep a game afloat, but the longer your game goes on, the more things each side can point to in their efforts to prove you are preferring the other side over theirs. This is what causes even the best balanced, most carefully rewarding games out there to fail over time.

So yeah, while I can understand your idea, and think it is probable one of the best ways for increasing the game's difficulty without simply ramping up the enemies, I can't see it as anything other than a potential engine for accelerating Warframe's eventual demise.

Edited September 3, 2018 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[uxx0]

I see the real problem in the devs being unwilling to provide endgame content, since it would obviously be restricted to endgame players. The community is at fault, too. I mean I've seen people complain about the current event being too hard. We also have Eidolons... which "mirrors the tactics of a Trial in terms of teamwork and communication [...]". 'nuff said.

I'm pretty sure DE is aware of this problem, but has no intention (or it's at the bottom of the priority list) to provide actual endgame content yet. Trials were a great step in the right direction, but were never expanded upon. Like many things. It would've been a great way to challenge players and at the same time provide story-telling without making a full cinematic quest which will be over and done in 30 minutes.

One thing that kind of sparks a glimmer of hope in me is the addition of ESO. IMO it's a straight upgrade of survival missions and more or less the direction of challenging content we need. Although I still find it a pain to play, especially with no incentives to go further than wave 8 or even playing it at all after getting the special drops.

 

22 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

If they are good, everyone will want to do it, and then the casual players (like me) will quit in frustration from lack of teamwork in public groups (because forming a dedicated team takes time and effort I don't care to put in).

Well, duh. It's called endgame for a reason. It's supposed to be challenging and rewarding. You have to make compromises like that. If you want something good you have to put in the work to get it. That's how it works in pretty much any online game.

Edited September 4, 2018 by uxx0

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

39 minutes ago, uxx0 said:

I mean I've seen people complain about the current event being too hard.

My problem is that I can't get the G3 to spawn no matter what I try. I have a mark, and I run with others who have a mark, but they still haven't shown up.

Kinda hard to complete an event when completion is hinged on an RNG-based mechanic that just won't trigger for you.

The only other thing I don't like is the time gate on the struts, since I typically don't play more than 2 hrs/day, meaning it takes a day per strut for me. I would use the Mobile App to speed up the process (since I have all the resources already), but they don't show up in the mobile app, as far as I can tell.

But yeah, it isn't a hard event. I just need the G3 to spawn, and killing them is easy enough.

[taiiat]

the only real difference you've made in your hypothetical alternative Interception, is that you made it much larger. which certainly reduces the number of Warframes that can trivialize the Gamemode.
mind you that unless it was stupid huge, there are still some that can trivialize it.

i'm not sure it's really any better though, it makes having upgraded mobility certainly important so that you can delete zones of the map you're not at before they take the Objectives.
and ofcourse while big areas make it harder to trivialize Gamemodes, it also makes Healing/Support Warframes generally useless. to which end in Interception they do already have limited effectiveness because you're not always close enough to be able to share Abilities.

so if there was say 100 Meters between Objectives? sure it would be more difficult to hold all of the Objectives. but it also would easily not be entertaining either, even for those that don't want AFKFarming the game. and you'd have to make Enemies slower at Capturing Objectives so that Players can actually hold all of the Objectives(or more than half atleast) with the majority of the Warframes in the game. as if some content is difficult enough that you cannot complete it without certain select Warframe choices that will be able to trivialize Enemies enough so that you can actually succeed consistently then we haven't really gotten anywhere have we, coming full circle as that pushes Players to using only the most AFK'able Abilities to make the Gamemode have the highest probability of success.

50 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Of course, my own biased opinion isn't that the 'hardcore' players actually want challenge; they just want something that they can hold over other players' heads.

so, me being uninterested with AFK content that there is no good feeling from completing because it's a gear check of having sufficient automated AoE (whether that be Damage or otherwise) means... i'm looking for something to stroke over other Players about?
or maybe, just maybe - i want content that provides more resistance on the Player than 'have you grinded the Stats to be able to turn off the Enemies'.

of the everlasting problem in Warframe that our Rewards for playing content in the game is for the Gameplay to be less and less engaging, and for it to play itself at an ever increasing rate. effectively making me the Player, irrelevant because it doesn't matter who i am, it's the Stats that are playing the game.
or at some point, the game becoming so automatic that it wouldn't even matter if there wasn't a human sitting behind the screen. a completely different species could play the game just the same.

 

but no, it's definitely me having some elitism problem.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

My problem is that I can't get the G3 to spawn no matter what I try. I have a mark, and I run with others who have a mark, but they still haven't shown up.

This is the exact problem I'm having also.  Just can't get them to show up.  

[Loza03]

11 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

There is a very important problem with this, one that you hinted at a few times but never actually discussed: Rewards.

As you said, some players want a casual game, others want more difficulty.

So, if this new game mode is made, then what will be the rewards for completing it?

If they are good, everyone will want to do it, and then the casual players (like me) will quit in frustration from lack of teamwork in public groups (because forming a dedicated team takes time and effort I don't care to put in).

This is a very important and pertinent question. And to be honest? I'm not sure. All I know is that the problem somewhat lies with this part of your post:

11 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Of course, my own biased opinion isn't that the 'hardcore' players actually want challenge; they just want something that they can hold over other players' heads. This is the same problem that happens whenever event items/cosmetics come back. Thus, the problem can never be solved: the elite want something to hold over the plebeian heads, and the plebeians threaten to leave the game if anyone starts being able to hold stuff over their heads.

What you're talking about is, in a nutshell, 'prestige'. I'm personally of the opinion that EARNED prestige items are a good thing. Not like the current daily tribute system where logging in for five minutes 700 times rewards somebody with no deeper understanding of the game more than someone who's logged in for a few months, but has taken the time to deeply learn and appreciate the mechanics.

The theory of prestige items earned from intense challenges is that it's what bridges the gap between 'casual' (enjoying the game on a surface level) and 'hardcore' (deeply understanding the mechanics, and being able to use them effectively), through a player seeing this awesome loot another player is using, thinking 'I want that', and having to train their skills to do so, where upon getting that loot, they understand the game at a deeper level than they did before, so even if and when they go back to mucking around casually enjoying the experience, they do so with a new appreciation of the game.

That's the idea anyway, and it's something Warframe doesn't have. For whatever reason, any items with 'prestige' attached to them (Excalibur Prime being the most obvious example) have gotten this stigma, and not entirely unearned, of players who have them treating players who don't as lesser, even when they're not. Because... well, they weren't earned prestige. All the 'prestige' items aren't actually from displaying deep mechanical knowledge, but from being in the right place at the right time. When DE has, quite fairly, reintroduced these items, this leads the people who had them to feel cheated (and in my opinion, for no good reason) because their loot ceases to be valuable, it ceases to mean anything. In response to the 'hardcore' (but not really) audience's meaningless declarations that they've been cheated, this leads to perspectives like yours, that they're all just entitled. To be honest, I don't blame you. If I'm honest, I kind of agree. But I think we both agree it's not healthy for the game.

The reason why I, personally, like prestige items is that it's loot that means something. It's loot worth getting, loot worth playing for. But the consequence of the unhealthy relationship this game has for valuable loot, due to the value being, honestly, misplaced, has led to the only value that holds being power, as you've pointed out. So if it doesn't push the power creep, it's not worth it to many players.

So, long story short, pushing the challenge and intensity of Warframe could either wind up fixing this problem by introducing genuine challenge and genuinely prestigious and valuable loot, or exacerbate it, as you suggest it might. If I'm honest, I don't know which would wind up happening.

This is basically a very long-winded way to say: You're probably right, but I hope you're not.

[Loza03]

12 hours ago, taiiat said:

-Snip-

Yeah, making it bigger is pretty much the gist. I'm aware it's far from a perfect solution, but it does at least get across the philosophy I'm looking for.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

the gap between 'casual' (enjoying the game on a surface level) and 'hardcore' (deeply understanding the mechanics, and being able to use them effectively)

When I talked about 'casual' vs 'hardcore', I was actually referring to amount of effort willing to be put in in any given mission or play session, I.E. Casuals like being able to just run around and get stuff while Hardcore players want to have difficulty and be sweating on the edge of their seat as they finish something.

I consider myself 'casual', even though, by your definition, I would be very 'hardcore' (after all, I'm currently working on a Steam Guide that explains weapon archetypes and general modding tips for said archetypes).

What I was trying to express was the difference in resource allocation the players have between each other; money, time, and effort. I suppose I should add one for understanding, but I rarely, if ever, see any player holding their understanding over someone else's head; if anything, I mostly see other players like me, who are trying to share with other players our understanding of the game. I could be wrong, though, so I will think about what could define the schism in knowledge and understanding between players. I know that it exists, because I remember when I was on one side of the divide, and when I moved to the other side.

But yes, I agree with what you say (probably because you were agreeing with what I said 😁).