Rework Hijack Missions

[Ikusi_Prime]

I cannot express my unfathomable hatred for Hijack missions. They kill the fun of the game for me. 

First of all, they are almost impossible to do solo unless you have a specific frame (Harrow, Nidus, etc.). This is due to the fact that your shields power the payload. Even if you adjust your mods to give you the most shields/shield regen as possible, the payload moves at a crawl with low-shield frames. 

This would be fine, if there weren't also a time component to it. See, the payload takes 10 damage every second. It functions as a built-in timer to finish the mission. The slower you move the cart, the more damage it takes passively, and you can do literally nothing about it. There are points where the game mode has become impossible to win because the cart will kill itself before you can reach extraction regardless of how well you play. If the cart is on a scrap of health, it should be a moment of high tension, crunch time to ward all enemies off the cart or risk losing. Nope. You lost, and you have no power to change that. Might as well give up. 

The payload can "kill" you. You don't actually die, you just respawn nearby, but it cancels any active effects you had (e.g., Warding Halo), effects that most likely cost you energy that you wasted because you stood too close to the thing you are trying to stay close to. Whoops. It's an incredibly frustrating mechanic that is at best an inconvenience, at worse a drain on the resources that you need to fight the enemy. 

This game is supposed to be about high-flying ninjas with guns and swords, but Hijack chains you to a small area and punishes you for trying to go off and let your shields recharge and fight off the next wave of enemies by reversing your progress. 

Now, I understand that these missions would be a cakewalk with the right frame or with a big group of people. That's part of the problem. That's the only advice people seem to be able to give. "Play Nidus", "Get friends", etc. It would be totally fine if these missions were only more difficult without those things, but they are almost impossible. No basic mission should require you to play a certain frame or play with a group to complete. I have similar qualms about Interception missions, but at least Interception gives you a chance to be mobile. They can be fun to do solo, constantly flying around the map to keep control of the different areas. Hijack keeps you in place and punishes you for being a ninja. 

Hijack needs to be reworked. 

The payload should continue to move when you have no shields, albeit very slowly. This means that you can essentially play the mode on Nightmare if you so choose, fighting with no shields and a slow-moving payload. While attached to a payload, your shield regeneration would simply be disabled. If the overall speed of the payload needed to be brought down to keep mission times around the same, that is fine.

If it doesn't have any shields to drain, the payload should then try to drain alternative health pools, such as Nezha's Warding Halo, Saryn's Molt, or Spectres. This creates more interactions with different Warframe abilities and rewards creativity and good use of resources. 

The payload itself shouldn't deal damage to itself beyond a certain health minimum, let's say 200 health. This removes that inevitable loss that happens if the payload takes too much damage, and encourages players to keep trying all the way to the end. The payload could even get a small amount of shields, similar to a Defense mission, meaning if you can hold the enemy back, you can get a buffer to the payload's health for the next wave of enemies. 

The range of the payload's shield drain should be increased. This would give players more freedom of movement around the payload. It shouldn't be so large that it's basically an Exterminate mission, but you should get a little bit of breathing room. An interesting idea would be to make the shield drain more efficient the closer you are to the payload. The actual range could then be quite far, but to get the payload moving at top speeds, you would have to get really close to it. 

Finally, the payload running you over should knock you down and roll over you, dealing damage. This allows you to keep long-duration abilities running while still keeping the flavor of the payload running you over. The physical body of the payload would protect you while you're knocked down underneath it, so it wouldn't be too punishing, but the damage would need to be severe enough to discourage players from repeatedly getting run over to push it for free while underneath it.

 

[(PSN)OriginalEquinox]

Small tip, take Sand boi and a spectre with you, relax on the payload while your clone does the hard work, GROFIT

[Sormaran]

15 minutes ago, Aejan said:

No basic mission should require you to play a certain frame or play with a group to complete.

Now you say that, but fail to explain how hijack is basic mission. I dont remember it being first mission for new players or anything like that.

[EDM774]

there are these wonderfull little things called shield restores. Have you heard of them. And also I have no idea how you play hijack but even with my lowest shield frame I got the thing out at 50%+ health left.

As us people in the IT industry often joke maybe the problem is between the keyboard and the chair. 😄

[Ikusi_Prime]

5 minutes ago, Sormaran said:

Now you say that, but fail to explain how hijack is basic mission. I dont remember it being first mission for new players or anything like that.

The first Hijack mission is on Mars. I think Mars qualifies as early-game content. 

To me, a basic mission is any mission that is on a node with no modifiers, events, or alternate modes attached. Sorties are not basic missions. Nightmare missions are not basic missions. Dark Sector missions are not basic missions. Etc. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Aejan

[Sormaran]

5 minutes ago, Aejan said:

The first Hijack mission is on Mars. I think Mars qualifies as early-game content. 

That is far enough away from new players to not be considered basic missions. I just dont see how this mission can be any hard, aside of raids, when ppl destroy the cart on mines, i never failed or heard of failing this mission, regardless of warframe. Hell, you can afk do it with most frames on most difficulties, like i literally do with Nyx in her bubble(you can activate it in air and land on the cart and then just wait) on sories hijack, yes, was even solo few times.

We can agree to disagree, i guess, but i dont see any drastic changed needed for hijack.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Sormaran

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Even seen through the prism of Sortie Hijack, this feedback is somewhat misinformed.

2 hours ago, Aejan said:

First of all, they are almost impossible to do solo unless you have a specific frame (Harrow, Nidus, etc.). This is due to the fact that your shields power the payload. Even if you adjust your mods to give you the most shields/shield regen as possible, the payload moves at a crawl with low-shield frames. 

It is completely soloable if you have sufficient amount of tools at your disposal. Shield restores, Shield Osprey Spectres, Arcanes (Aegis and Barrier or Grace for Nidus and Inaros), a bunch of frames can restore their shields on demand (Mag, Harrow, Trinity), Sentinels can replenish the shields as well (Guardian, Shield Charger). There's plenty of ways to keep the rover powered.

2 hours ago, Aejan said:

This would be fine, if there weren't also a time component to it. See, the payload takes 10 damage every second. It functions as a built-in timer to finish the mission. The slower you move the cart, the more damage it takes passively, and you can do literally nothing about it.

Rejuvenation aura can make it actually heal 2HP/s if you don't use Coaction Drift in the squad, otherwise you can use Sancti Magistar or Vazarin's Protective Dash to keep it alive.

The cart itself usually takes 2-3 minutes to arrive at its destination to finish the mission, 10k HP it has is sufficient for a 15 minute trip, the game gives the player a plenty of leeway for enemy chip damage on the target or shields getting depleted constantly.

Of course, it might be annoying and tough for never players that don't have knowledge of or access to nearly as many tools as veterans have, but I guess that fits into the progression scheme DE has created. There's no shame in asking for help, especially as a newer player should spend most of the time online instead of soloing content.

Edited September 19, 2018 by JuicyButthurt

[Ikusi_Prime]

2 minutes ago, EDM774 said:

there are these wonderfull little things called shield restores. Have you heard of them. And also I have no idea how you play hijack but even with my lowest shield frame I got the thing out at 50%+ health left.

As us people in the IT industry often joke maybe the problem is between the keyboard and the chair. 😄

Maybe I am doing them wrong, but does that negate the points I have made? There shouldn't be a point where loss is inevitable, where the cart only has 300 HP left but even moving at max speed for 30 seconds won't get it to the dropship before it destroys itself. That alone should be motivation to give the game mode a touch up. You should always have a chance at winning at every point of a mission, however slim. 

[Ikusi_Prime]

10 minutes ago, JuicyButthurt said:

Even seen through the prism of Sortie Hijack, this feedback is somewhat misinformed.

It is completely soloable if you have sufficient amount of tools at your disposal. Shield restores, Shield Osprey Spectres, Arcanes (Aegis and Barrier or Grace for Nidus and Inaros), a bunch of frames can restore their shields on demand (Mag, Harrow, Trinity). There's plenty of ways to keep the rover powered.

Rejuvenation aura can make it actually heal 2HP/s if you don't use Coaction Drift in the squad, otherwise you can use Sancti Magistar or Vazarin's Protective Dash to keep it alive.

Of course, it might be annoying and tough for never players that don't have knowledge of or access to nearly as many tools as veterans have, but I guess that fits into the progression scheme DE has created. There's no shame in asking for help, especially as a newer player should spend most of the time online instead of soloing content.

My point is that you shouldn't need special mods, consumables, Arcanes, Void powers, or specific frames to complete a basic mission. Those things should absolutely make it easier, but if the game mode is so unintuitive that it is frustratingly difficult and requires multiple tries or extensive research to complete without them, then that's a good sign that the type of mission could be improved. There are certainly frames that make Spy missions easier due to their mobility and tools for bypassing security (Limbo, Loki, Ivara, etc.), but Spy missions don't have any extra requirements or items that are required if you aren't using one of those frames. All game modes should be held to that standard. 

And for the record, I did ask for help. The general response was "Play Nidus/Inaros/Harrow, or get somebody to help you do it." 

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Aejan

[[DE]Grzegorz]

19 minutes ago, Aejan said:

My point is that you shouldn't need special mods, consumables, Arcanes, Void powers, or specific frames to complete a basic mission. Those things should absolutely make it easier, but if the game mode is so unintuitive that it is frustratingly difficult and requires multiple tries or extensive research to complete without them, then that's a good sign that the type of mission could be improved.

It really doesn't require any of those special items, but when a new player that has barely any idea how the game works tries to solo content and fails, it can be argued to be equal parts an incentive to stick with other players or to get more experience (and power) in the game.

Could the mission be improved? Absolutely, there always are improvements to be made, but the situation is nowhere near as bad as you make it to be.

Let's add friendly Osprey deployment stations along the way to give players quicker shield replenishments along the way if they are willing to take a risk and split/leave rover completely alone for a sec, defeat a small outpost, hack the dispenser, and come back to the target with a bit of aid.

19 minutes ago, Aejan said:

There are certainly frames that make Spy missions easier due to their mobility and tools for bypassing security (Limbo, Loki, Ivara, etc.), but Spy missions don't have any extra requirements or items that are required if you aren't using one of those frames. All game modes should be held to that standard.

That is, so long you don't trip an alarm or alike. You are comparing an optimally played Spy vault to what is a really badly played Hijack. If you had same problems with Spy, the answer would likely be "git gud, or use Liset support charge".

Edited September 19, 2018 by JuicyButthurt

[Ikusi_Prime]

16 minutes ago, JuicyButthurt said:

It really doesn't require any of those special items, but when a new player that has barely any idea how the game works tries to solo content and fails, it can be argued to be equal parts an incentive to stick with other players or to get more experience (and power) in the game.

Could the mission be improved? Absolutely, there always are improvements to be made, but the situation is nowhere near as bad as you make it to be.

Let's add friendly Osprey deployment stations along the way to give players quicker shield replenishments along the way if they are willing to take a risk and split/leave rover completely alone for a sec, defeat a small outpost, hack the dispenser, and come back to the target with a bit of aid.

That is, so long you don't trip an alarm or alike. You are comparing an optimally played Spy vault to what is a really badly played Hijack. If you had same problems with Spy, the answer would likely be "git gud, or use Liset support charge".

Alright, then what am I doing wrong? I tried three times in a row to finish this Hijack mission on Nereid (Neptune) and failed all three times. The level for the enemies is 30-32. 

I was running a max-rank Nezha with Redirection and Fast Deflection for bonus shields, efficiency, power, and armor for better Warding Halos (3K+ extra health on each use) and Equilibrium for bonus sustain off of all the health/energy orbs my Blazing Chakram makes enemies drop. 

I had a max-rank Tenora with Serration, modded to deal additional Viral damage (for Corpus Flesh) and Electricity (for Robotics). I also had a max-rank Pyrana Prime with similar damage mods for my secondary. 

My general strategy was to empty my shields into the payload while fighting enemies, prioritizing Nullifiers, Shield Ospreys, and Ratel pads, using my Blazing Chakram to mark groups of enemies for sustain/damage amp. Once my shields ran out, I would continue to fight enemies, but distance myself from the cart to let my shields regen, and repeat.

It felt like my enemies were just not taking a ton of damage, especially the robots. The Corpus soldiers melted like butter, but the robots seemed to take forever to kill despite the electricity damage all of my weapons were dealing. The Tenora quickly ran out of ammo, and I found it difficult to ever get the Pyrana's ability to proc. Enemies were just not dying quickly enough. 

On one attempt, I lost because I ran out of revives. On the other two, I lost because the payload had taken too much damage, and despite the fact that I had cleared all the enemies off of it, it killed itself with the damage over time before I could bring it to extraction. That helplessness is incredibly frustrating. 

When I asked for help in the region chat, the only response I really got was to swap to Inaros/Nidus and relax on top of the payload. Not exactly helpful. 

[[DE]Grzegorz]

1 hour ago, Aejan said:

I was running a max-rank Nezha with Redirection and Fast Deflection for bonus shields, efficiency, power, and armor for better Warding Halos (3K+ extra health on each use) and Equilibrium for bonus sustain off of all the health/energy orbs my Blazing Chakram makes enemies drop.

Nezha is inarguably the 2nd worst candidate for any shield-related builds, he has 2nd lowest shield amount (50) ex aequo with Valkyr, Warding Halo doesn't help in any way as the drain bypasses the damage reduction, so you only took a huge hit to your survivability and gained almost nothing.

1 hour ago, Aejan said:

My general strategy was to empty my shields into the payload while fighting enemies, prioritizing Nullifiers, Shield Ospreys, and Ratel pads, using my Blazing Chakram to mark groups of enemies for sustain/damage amp. Once my shields ran out, I would continue to fight enemies, but distance myself from the cart to let my shields regen, and repeat.

Any damage to shields, caused by rover or the enemies would interrupt the shield regen, though with both Fast Deflection and Redirection the window of opportunity for enemies would be smaller. There are ways to regain shields (abilities, arcanes, sentinels) while fighting that'd aid you far better than forcing a frame into a build that is contrary to how the frame should be used.

If you have the Operator mode available (which you absolutely should, it's not that hard to get through these quests), you could've left Nezha atop the rover and wait for a few seconds in Void mode, letting the shields regenerate.

1 hour ago, Aejan said:

It felt like my enemies were just not taking a ton of damage, especially the robots. The Corpus soldiers melted like butter, but the robots seemed to take forever to kill despite the electricity damage all of my weapons were dealing. The Tenora quickly ran out of ammo, and I found it difficult to ever get the Pyrana's ability to proc. Enemies were just not dying quickly enough.

Viral was absolutely a great choice, but only from the perspective of Hunter Munitions synergy. Tenora doesn't have status high enough to consistently deal slash procs which would let you truly benefit from reduced health or innate toxin, bypassing enemy shields completely.

You should've tried Toxin, Gas or Viral+Hunter Munitions build to truly decimate Corpus, Viral+Electricity performance was greatly reduced by enemy shields.

1 hour ago, Aejan said:

When I asked for help in the region chat, the only response I really got was to swap to Inaros/Nidus and relax on top of the payload. Not exactly helpful. 

Need a hand?

I've personally tried doing the mission, I didn't even change my build that much from the usual shenanigans but I completely avoided the classic cheese strats I'd use in that case (Shield restore, Shield Ospreys, Protective Dash), the cat I've taken with me worked well as a distraction to enemies and let me regain health but not shields, it is debatable whether or not it was a better choice compared to a Sentinel that could both regenerate health and shields.

It wasn't exactly a walk in the park, 150 shield capacity and slow recharge was quite noticeable, but I managed through with just over 2000 health left on the rover. Had I prepared better or outright cheesed through it, the rover would arrive to its destination without as much as a scratch.

Edited September 19, 2018 by JuicyButthurt