So... Is Wraith The New Prime?

[Refreshing_OJ]

tl;dr: Essentially, stop making pure upgrades that are retextures with some stats tweaked. New weapons that are more powerful should play fundamentally different, and shouldn't be the same style of play with just 2 extra damage per bullet.

 

I'm confused by this action. I'm at least somewhat certain that someone at DE has seen people complain about how the Prime series of weapons are making their weapon that they have poured time, love, affection, potatoes, and forma into obselete.

 

So, to solve that problem, they release a new, upgraded version of a weapon that some people have upgraded, rather than designing and releasing a new weapon...

 

I'm understand that in one of the livestreams, they even stated that some of the weapons will be pure upgrades, and that some will just not be viable for higher level parts of the game in order to create some sort of progression in the game in regards to the weapons.

 

But, seriously? Are we to expect eventual upgrades of old weapons? I get the argument that some people are proposing, that one should really not complain about pure upgrades to weapons, as it gives you mastery and more things to do. I get that. I have two problems with this though.

 

Firstly, not everyone has enormous amounts of platinum to blow on new weapons in order to upgrade them. These players, when a new weapon comes out that is a direct upgrade to the weapon they have invested time into, now have to wait until the next catalyst/forma alert shows up so they can have a weapon that can compete at higher levels. Now, you have less players actually playing your game. If this continues to happen, the interest in the game itself decreases drastically over time, which is why (one of the many reasons anyway) it's so difficult to find a group to run certain missions now. If you're wanting to finish out your star map, you're going to spend a lot of time playing solo, or maybe getting lucky and find some other player who's attempting the same goal as you.

 

Secondly, it is SUCH a huge pain when the new weapon that came out is exactly the same as the one you are using, but with an added prefix that magically increases its power by some amount. I was one of the people who loved to use the AkBoltos when they were one of the best pistols back in the early game. I had put a catalyst on them in order to boost their power, but when the Dual Vipers came out, I tried them, and loved them. I ended up selling my AkBoltos, and putting a catalyst on the Dual Vipers, until I got ahold of the Despair.

 

You get the picture. As NEW weapons, as in new concepts and different ways to play the game and cause damage came out, I was actually INTERESTED in investing into the new weapons because they were fundamentally different than the current weapon I was using. Yes, they nearly always had in some manner a higher damage output, but the reason as to why I was fine with ditching a weapon I had invested time, love, affection, and potatoes into is because it was DIFFERENT.

 

When DE releases a "new" weapon which is just a retexture of an older weapon that now has higher stats, I'm not interested in it because it brings nothing new to the table. Imagine if all the game had were just different tiers of Braton's. You started with the MK1-Braton. You upgraded to the Braton. You eventually upgrade to the Braton II, etc, etc. Where is the enjoyment in this?

 

When I'm selling a weapon that I've put time, effort, and love into, I want the next weapon that I'm upgrading to FEEL different, and not even potentially better. The key is that the weapon should FEEl different. I don't want to sell a weapon in order to upgrade essentially the SAME weapon that only has +3 damage per bullet, or now has armor ignore, or some other stat tweak.

 

I love this game DE, but seriously. You had the ability to come up with a game concept that was so original and so new that you had to scale it down so publishing companies could level with you. If you had that magic when you published Dark Sector, why are running into this problem of just retexturing weapons and calling it "new content" now?

[Althix]

ts it's f2p game. new weapons are supposed to be better or funnier than previous one. so you should tato them, buy a slot for them, forma them and have fun until new weapon will arise.

 

i had 5 stars braton with catalyst, now i have 5 starts braton prime with catalyst, and next weapon that i am gonna augment is gonna be new AR(given that it's gonna be full auto and better than braton prime).

 

p.s.

majority of arsenal is useless in one way in another, there are very few people who can say "i don't give f that my lovely primary/sidearm/melee sucks. because i just love them".

Edited September 3, 2013 by Althix

[derclaw]

Make darn conversion kits for weapons already.

[DaClamps]

Except the strun wraith is better than the strun in every way imaginable. It's not a retexture. Seriously, check its stats compared to the strun.

Edited September 3, 2013 by DaClamps

[Tei_S]

Short answer: Because all but the Primes, excluding the Founder's items, are event and/or exclusive items.

 

Long answer: *ahem*

 

Let's start with the issue of "omg i just forma'd/potato'd/whatever'd my x!!!1!!"

There is literally nothing DE can do to help you if you have that issue repeatedly. What are they going to do, stop to pander exclusively to you? A company simply cannot afford to do that. I should not have to explain why.

 

Let's move on from that, because there's literally nothing else to be said about it other than "well, too bad."

 

As for the issue of what defines new content.

A new weapon should be exactly that, a new weapon. We are in agreement here. But the Strun Wraith, the Vandal series, and the Primes, are not necessarily claiming to be "new." They are upgrades of existing content, with the exception of the Reaper Prime, unless you consider the Hate to be its base form. As for weapon feel, there are a lot of factors that go into that, and hey, Ability to kill things effectively is one of them. However it would be nonsensical to devote so much time and attention to something that can vary wildly from person to person. A lot of people only care about the numbers.

 

A hard-to-obtain or exclusive upgrade to a weapon is often reward enough to justify it being a reskin+respec. A majority of the population who's played any other f2p game ever can tell you about that.

 

So, what makes these weapons worth it?

 

They're hard to obtain. They're better than their predecessors. Getting something rare feels good to most people. To others, the improvements are enough.

 

So, in a way, it all comes back to the short answer.

 

Because all classes of them but the non-founder primes are event items or otherwise exclusive items.

[ValhaHazred]

It's a limted time only "thanks for doing the event and letting us test the new game mode" award. It should be better, because it only existed for this event.

The way people complain about these things, I'd swear they wheren't free loyalty rewards with a free slot and a free potatoe or something.

[Stormandreas]

Wraith is the prime of Grineer weapons.
Vandal seems to be of 1st edition weapons, like Braton, Lato and Snipetron.
Prime are tenno Ultimate weapons (essencially)

[-CK-]

there not forcing you to use the prime weapons so i dont understand whyy you are complaining, and with the new strun its a beast, throw a crit build on it and your good to go, 190base dmg falls slightly under the highest based weapon in the game, flux, so nothing to really complain about. everything you need to upgrade weapons can be aquired in the game, catalyst (which tomorrow after livestream there will prob be an alert) forma from void runs which the keys come from defense missions, or forma blueprints from the same void which the materials come from missions. so i dont see why you are complaining here there will always be the elite and the casual so play your catagory and polietly shut up :)

[Refreshing_OJ]

It's a limted time only "thanks for doing the event and letting us test the new game mode" award. It should be better, because it only existed for this event.

The way people complain about these things, I'd swear they wheren't free loyalty rewards with a free slot and a free potatoe or something.

I'm not complaining about the concept of a free item that has all the perks already on it. If that's what you got from that, then you're an idiot. I was one of the first people to thank DE for the Snipetron Vandal, and I'm thankful for this weapon as well.

 

What I AM complaining about is the trend to "Prime"ify any normal weapon rather than coming up with new content. For example, Orthos Prime, Braton Prime, Latron Prime, Fang Prime, etc, etc.

[Refreshing_OJ]

there not forcing you to use the prime weapons so i dont understand whyy you are complaining, and with the new strun its a beast, throw a crit build on it and your good to go, 190base dmg falls slightly under the highest based weapon in the game, flux, so nothing to really complain about. everything you need to upgrade weapons can be aquired in the game, catalyst (which tomorrow after livestream there will prob be an alert) forma from void runs which the keys come from defense missions, or forma blueprints from the same void which the materials come from missions. so i dont see why you are complaining here there will always be the elite and the casual so play your catagory and polietly shut up :)

You just proved my point. How the hell am I supposed to "polietly shut up :)" when even you are quoting numbers as being a better concept for a weapon? The problem is that they are indirectly forcing you to use prime weapons. They are PURE upgrades to their normal counterparts. It's a similar concept to working 40 hours a week and getting paid 7 dollars an hour, and doing the EXACT same work along with working the EXACT same hours, and getting paid 20 dollars an hour.

 

There is NOTHING about the weapons that are new, that could makethem challenging or new to use, besides stat tweaks. Even you said, "throw a crit build on it". That's a stat tweak. All the prime weapons, stat tweaks, even if those are fire rate or critical chance. The weapon itself functions the exact same way. Even the shotguns have drastic variation between each shotgun, except now the Strun Wraith is strictly "better" because of numbers. Numbers don't make a game fun. Variation makes a game fun.

 

"there will always be the elite and the casual..." Yes, but because of this system, no. By making it unintuitive and a pure loss to use the weaker counterparts, DE forces players to always drift towards being "elite". What I'm asking for, which is drastic variation in design and function in weapons, will make this distinction be drastically different.

 

Take Halo 4 for example. There are those who are defined as being "elite" because they use more difficult weapons to master, such as long range (Sniper Rifle, DMR, Light Rifle). Now, you have those who are casual, which are easier to use, such as close range (Assault Rifle, Shotgun, Energy Sword).

 

Even within those categories of weapons, you have drastically different functions of each weapons. The Battle Rifle, the Light Rifle, the DMR, and the Covenant Carbine each fit a specific niche. The Binary Rifle, the Sniper Rifle, and the Covenant counterpart all fit very specific niches, which some can define as being more or less difficult, or as you said, "elite" or "casual" to use.

[Archistopheles]

Free slot and free potato.

 

Forma can be farmed.

 

If every pure upgrade is handed out in similar fashion, then it will be power-creep with a chocolate-gooey time-consuming center coated in a sugary-sweet skinner-box crust.

[-CK-]

this is why i said polietly shut up :O i have every weapon in the game 15 pages of weapon slots for when more are released i play with them all because they are fun i never use any of the prime weapons just cause i dont like the way they look but you dont see me making topics expressing my opinion and complaining complaining complaining , emphasis on the -----> complaining <----- if you dont like it just simply dont use it, if your not satisified well the go back to halo 4, i wasnt meaning elite or casual guns i was referring to the player but ok i guess it can fit for both why dont you suggest a new weapon concept so they can change the game up fitting your specifications instead of posting rants, at this point i dont understand what you are really complaining about, the rate that weapons are being released i would of thought you'd have enough on your plate to be satisified

 

 

no matter how you look at it there will always be that one best weapon, so no matter how many different ways you look at it nothingg can be changed, different weapons inspire differends modes of play, so play the weapon for your style and again polietly shut up :) or if you'd rather go back and forth discussing the pros and cons of weapon variations id be happy to shut you down around every corner :)

 

 

i wasnt quoting numbers as a better concept for a weapon i was comparing the newly released strun to the flux rifle, if you dont use mods err i mean "stat tweaks" whats the point of using that weapons there is obviously superior builds for the weapon type so why not just go with the flow, if not make your own damn game that way you can control the flow of content and not have to make useless threads that have been made before

 

 

 

*RAWR

 

 

-Ck-

Edited September 3, 2013 by -CK-

[LukeAura]

So you're in saying in a co-op game, with no competition between players, where if a weapon that works on its own for all the levels you play at gets a new model of it that's a pure upgrade to it... You have to immediately ditch the old one and use only the new one? 
The enemies aren't getting any harder(well once they did get a level buff) with the release of new weapons, so why does a gun that works fine against them need to be replaced with a stronger one?

[Archistopheles]

So you're in saying in a co-op game, with no competition between players, where if a weapon that works on its own for all the levels you play at gets a new model of it that's a pure upgrade to it... You have to immediately ditch the old one and use only the new one? 

The enemies aren't getting any harder(well once they did get a level buff) with the release of new weapons, so why does a gun that works fine against them need to be replaced with a stronger one?

 

Power creep doesn't happen over night. It's a problem that... Well... creeps it's way in over a few years until we're shooting guns with 1000 base damage at Grineer Fusion Demi-God Soldiers.

[Boondorl]

Power creep doesn't happen over night. It's a problem that... Well... creeps it's way in over a few years until we're shooting guns with 1000 base damage at Grineer Fusion Demi-God Soldiers.

 

I'm actually sure this is why difficulty needed to be increased in the first place. Our weapons were blatantly over powered, and nothing could stand up to them. I laugh that people encourage power creep because they like "whacky, zanny, over-the-top weapons!!!11!1one" (spoiler alert: this isn't the right game for that), and then get mad when the game gets too easy.

 

This is the most bipolar community I've ever seen. When something OP comes out, everyone loves it. Give it a week and then everyone is complaining it's horrendously OP, especially for a weapon that is no longer available, and especially when the original counter part is trash.

 

I say don't bother. The only people who bother commenting on these threads are the ones basically telling you your wrong by either: a) flaming at you before even reading the full post, b) telling you to kill yourself, c) disagree and don't say why, or d) have a terrible reason as to why they're right and you're wrong (OMG ITS EXCLUSIVE THEREFORE IT SHOULD BE OP BECAUSE I PUT SO MUCH WORK INTO STANDING AROUND FOR 20 MINUTES).

[LazyKnight]

This is the most bipolar community I've ever seen. When something OP comes out, everyone loves it. Give it a week and then everyone is complaining it's horrendously OP, especially for a weapon that is no longer available, and especially when the original counter part is trash.

The list of OP weapon are lead by Acrid followed by a very distant despair in 2nd place. Wraith isn't in the same league as a despair or even remotely near an acrid. Over powered weapon in primaries only real consist of Ogris, but it's tendency to kill it's user makes it average.

 

Lanka is stronger than any vandal so there is no way to call V-snipetron an OP exclusive. Shotguns have a lot of issues and basically every rifle ammo using weapon has issues.

[taiiat]

this is why i said polietly shut up :O i have every weapon in the game 15 pages of weapon slots for when more are released i play with them all because they are fun i never use any of the prime weapons just cause i dont like the way they look 

that's kind've the point. there are, some people that use things for other than statistics. but Development companies think they'll make the most profit by catering to people that only care about constant stat upgrades.

but, constant stat upgrades are only applicable to those players while they stick around, which they won't. those are the players that get bored and leave your game in 6 months, and then what? the dedicated people that are left are the ones that just want cool stuff, not numbers. 

 

Warframe wouldn't be the first game that let Power Creep be a main feature of the game, and then everything collapses and all the players leave. 

sure, making all new stuff have higher numbers makes people go for it, but inevitably the game will just scale with them, so the bigger number didn't mean anything. 

but, those content eating people sure, will for a few months, spend a bunch of money, and your Burst income will be great. then they leave, and you lost your burst income, now all that's left is the steady income from the dedicated players. 

simply, building a 'profiable' game around Burst income is the way to run out of exactly that: Income. 

[ValhaHazred]

Lanka is stronger than any vandal so there is no way to call V-snipetron an OP exclusive. Shotguns have a lot of issues and basically every rifle ammo using weapon has issues.

V-snipetron is superior in it's firing rate and loading speed. It's more an over-powered battle rifle than a sniper rifle. The Clantech stuff also tend to be better (Ignis excepted) than their closest pub version.

[LazyKnight]

V-snipetron is superior in it's firing rate and loading speed. It's more an over-powered battle rifle than a sniper rifle. The Clantech stuff also tend to be better (Ignis excepted) than their closest pub version.

I can't stand lanka's fire rate at all and regret making my lanka. V-snipetron is a functionally superior weapon in the role of sniping multiple targets or even quick firing to hit a Corpus tech before he kills me.

Edited September 3, 2013 by LazyKnight

[taiiat]

I can't stand lanka's fire rate at all and regret making my lanka. V-snipetron is a functionally superior weapon in the role of sniping multiple targets or even quick firing to hit a Corpus tech before he kills me.

:< to each his own but i missed probably 50% of my shots with Snipetron Vandal. i suck with hitscan weapons because they're illogical. 

 

in contrast, i can pump out headshots like no tommorow with Lanka ;)

 

still, to each his own. 

[Shadow_Creeper]

Stopped reading halfway through the first page and after reading similar post all I am going to say is quit! If you have such a big problem that they make prime, vandal or wraith versions of an already existing weapon then stop playing and play something else. Just because there is a better version to a gun doesn't mean you have to use it. Keep using the old version it hasn't changed so it is not like now that there is a primed version they are going to lower the old versions stats.

[TheDoctah]

Short answer: Because all but the Primes, excluding the Founder's items, are event and/or exclusive items.

 

Long answer: *ahem*

 

Let's start with the issue of "omg i just forma'd/potato'd/whatever'd my x!!!1!!"

There is literally nothing DE can do to help you if you have that issue repeatedly. What are they going to do, stop to pander exclusively to you? A company simply cannot afford to do that. I should not have to explain why.

 

Let's move on from that, because there's literally nothing else to be said about it other than "well, too bad."

 

As for the issue of what defines new content.

A new weapon should be exactly that, a new weapon. We are in agreement here. But the Strun Wraith, the Vandal series, and the Primes, are not necessarily claiming to be "new." They are upgrades of existing content, with the exception of the Reaper Prime, unless you consider the Hate to be its base form. As for weapon feel, there are a lot of factors that go into that, and hey, Ability to kill things effectively is one of them. However it would be nonsensical to devote so much time and attention to something that can vary wildly from person to person. A lot of people only care about the numbers.

 

A hard-to-obtain or exclusive upgrade to a weapon is often reward enough to justify it being a reskin+respec. A majority of the population who's played any other f2p game ever can tell you about that.

 

So, what makes these weapons worth it?

 

They're hard to obtain. They're better than their predecessors. Getting something rare feels good to most people. To others, the improvements are enough.

 

So, in a way, it all comes back to the short answer.

 

Because all classes of them but the non-founder primes are event items or otherwise exclusive items.

I like this post quite a bit.

[McKoxuPL]

Wraith is like Vandal (braton & lato but is red vandal is blue ) 

[Nukkie]

wraith is new vandal