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Transcendent Wisdom


General_Durandal
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They say, somewhere deep in the most toxic depths of the Derelict Ruins of the Orokin Empire,
are shrines dedicated to the Orokin Primes, and if you meditate before the alter,
the ghost of that Prime will appear, and test you.

However, they also say these shrines can only be reached by a, "true dragon", or something,
and that they are guarded by "angry" shadows.

Don't know if the stories are true, but if they are, you might be able to learn something incredible.

~~~~~~~~~~
Info,

Spoiler

A new room/tile found only in Derelict Survival missions, the Prime Orokin Shrine.

The door to the room is as energy field, and only those carrying all 4 Dragon keys can cross it.

The Inside of the room is like the Orokin Vault, but no lockers, instead of a item pick, is a place for you to meditate,
and instead of just a statue of Excal Prime, is a random statue of any of the Primes.

When you meditate at the shrine, you will teleport into a dreamlike realm.
(room behind the shrine you can't run/walk to, where you control a mod-less specter of whatever you are playing as)
In that realm, you'll meet the Prime that shrine is to,
and that Prime will offers a challenge.

Excalibure Prime: Beat him in a Melee and Powers Only Dual.

Mag Prime: Solve the magnet based puzzle in the time limit.

Loki Prime: Find where he's hiding, then don't get found by him.

Rhino Prime: Break the most stuff in the time limit.

Ember Prime: Make the better meal out of a choice of a variety of ingredients. (meats, veggies, spices, 10 of each, choose a combo of 5)

Frost Prime: Beat him in a snowball fight.

Volt Prime: Beat him in a race.

Saryn Prime: Find the herbs needed to make a tonic before you die to the poison.

Hydroid Prime: Find the hidden treasure first.

Nyx Prime: Beat her at 3+ out of 5 games of 3D Komi. (like normal Komi, but a 5x5x5 cube instead of a 5x5 board)

Nova Prime: ?

Ash Prime: Assassinate the target before him.

Banshee Prime: ?

Zephyr Prime: Get to the top of the tower first, with no powers.

Oberon Prime: Defend the Sacred grove without harming it's plants or animals.

Trinity Prime: ?

Valkyr Prime: ?

Vauban Prime: Get to the end of the trap filled Maze.

Nekros Prime: Survive a shadow hoard mixed with enemies of every faction.

Mirage Prime: Catch the real one in a Hall of Mirrors Labyrinth within the time limit.

Chroma Prime: Beat 4 Invincible guardians at the same time, one of each of the 4 base elements. (heat, cold, toxic, electric)

Limbo Prime: Survive as you chase him through Space and Time.

~~~~~

Once you beat their challenge, you gain 1 rank of that Prime's Transcendent Wisdom.

Rank 0: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 1st power at rank 0.
Rank 1: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 2nd power at rank 0.
Rank 2: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 3rd power at rank 0.
Rank 3: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 4th power at rank 0.
Rank 4: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 1st and 2nd power at rank 1.
Rank 5: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 3rd and 4th power at rank 1.
Rank 6: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 1st and 2nd power at rank 2.
Rank 7: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 3rd and 4th power at rank 2.
Rank 8Unlocks the use of that Warframe's all 4 powers at rank 3.
Rank 9: Unlock use of that warframe's passive ability.

Any unlocked powers can be swapped with the warframe that unlocked it's power of the same number.
So if your Umbra beat 2 of Loki Prime's challenges, he'd be able to swap his Radial Howl for Loki's Invisibility at Rank 0.

To swap abilities, go to the abilities page in the arsenal, and next to each ability would be 3 boxes.
Box 1 would be that warframe's base power set.
Box 2 would be the first Prime you beat's slots, so if the first challenge you beat was Loki's,
then Loki would be in box 2 for all your abilities, and selecting it would change that power to Loki's power for that slot.
Each warframe can learn Transcendent Wisdom from 2 different Primes.

The passives you unlock are always active, (that's why they are the last Transcendent Wisdom rank)
allowing your frame to have 3 passive effects at the same time.
It's normal one, and 2 others from other frames.

~~~~~

However,
the Stalker and 0-3 of his Acolytes will show-up, (depending on the number of squad members)
will try and kill your frame while it's meditating.
If they kill your frame, you can revive, but can't meditate at the shrine again for that mission.

All squad-members can meditate at the shrine in the same mission, but not at the same time.
You'll have to take turns, and defend your ally's bodies while they undergo their test.

~~~~~

If you think it sounds to easy,
remember you all have all 4 dragon keys equipped.

~~~~~

 

~~~~~

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Quote

Rank 0: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 1st power at rank 0.
Rank 1: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 2nd power at rank 0.
Rank 2: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 3rd power at rank 0.
Rank 3: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 4th power at rank 0.
Rank 4: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 1st and 2nd power at rank 1.
Rank 5: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 3rd and 4th power at rank 1.
Rank 6: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 1st and 2nd power at rank 2.
Rank 7: Unlocks the use of that Warframe's 3rd and 4th power at rank 2.
Rank 8Unlocks the use of that Warframe's all 4 powers at rank 3.
Rank 9: Unlock use of that warframe's passive ability.

Why? Unless you forma frames nearly constantly, there is zero reason to put in this work.

Quote

Any unlocked powers can be swapped with the warframe that unlocked it's power of the same number.
So if your Umbra beat 2 of Loki Prime's challenges, he'd be able to swap his Radial Howl for Loki's Invisibility at Rank 0.

The passives you unlock are always active, (that's why they are the last Transcendent Wisdom rank)
allowing your frame to have 3 passive effects at the same time.
It's normal one, and 2 others from other frames.

Nope, nope, nope, nope nopenopenopenopenopenope. This would completely destroy game balance.

Quote

If you think it sounds to easy,
remember you all have all 4 dragon keys equipped.

Yeah, still sounds easy. Extinguished key is a moot point for most endgame players since their weapons already overkill level 30 enemies by 4-5x, if not more. Hobbled is nullified by bullet jumping, and any other air movement skills. All you need to worry about after that is staying alive with Bleeding and Decaying, which shouldn't be too bad.

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21 hours ago, Yuri_Doujinshi said:

This would completely destroy game balance.

What balance? I'm sorry, but I've been playing Warframe for 4 years.
There is barley any balance if any at all.

(the best shuriken has a riven disposition of 4, while the worst shuriken has a 1?)
(the worst should have 5, while the best have 1,)
(that way ALL weapons have the capability of becoming as good as the power-creep weapons through rivens)

Also, balance would only matter in a PvP based game like Overwatch, which warframe is not.
Warframe is not one, unless you count conclave, which you shouldn't.
Also, it would be easy to just disable Transcendent Wisdom during conclave PvP.

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21 hours ago, Yuri_Doujinshi said:

Yeah, still sounds easy. Extinguished key is a moot point for most endgame players since their weapons already overkill level 30 enemies by 4-5x, if not more. Hobbled is nullified by bullet jumping, and any other air movement skills. All you need to worry about after that is staying alive with Bleeding and Decaying, which shouldn't be too bad.

What if their level was always 100? 200? 300? 500? 900?
What do you think would be a balanced level for the Stalker to be to make Transcendent Wisdom, balanced, fun, and hard but achievable?

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"To get even stronger," he says in defense of his game-breaking proposition, as DE continues reworking, nerfing, or straight-up deleting the ridiculous exploits like Old Miasma Saryn or Maiming Strike Atterax that players have MacGyver'd up out of bugs and broken mechanics. Real solid rationale you've got there, kiddo. It would be a shame if DE's brand of balance invalidated it.

I want an entertaining challenge before I hit the C rotation, preferably independent of Mot or Arbitrations or Onslaught or whatever, not an endless cheese-making contest between DE and the players that sets the gameplay pendulum swinging wildly between the extremes of endless sh*t-kicking and getting my sh*t endlessly kicked. Lucky me, it looks like DE's going in my direction, albeit at roughly 20 mph.

At no point is the ability to simply pick the most broken combination of three, or even two, warframes' abilities and throw it on whatever warframe has the most advantageous base stats conducive to finding that entertaining challenge. As a tool in the player's kit, your proposal actually removes nuance concerning frame choice and build path, and as a balancing factor, it is too problematic and too demanding of far-reaching change.

Giving players the ability to stick Warcry and Exalted Blade on Chroma to satisfy one's disturbing obsession with DPS, for example, means that you are now obligated to make something that presents a challenge for such builds, at least until the player base optimizes that down to nothing as they do. If you don't, then such builds simply roflstomp the entire game and edge out any other kind of build because it's a straight upgrade of the min-maxing variety rather than the sidegrade (arguable downgrade) of using Operators.

If you do so by introducing new content balanced around such builds, then you have this vast and intricate system that's only strictly necessary for however much of that content exists, and which still roflstomps and edges out regular builds in the rest of the game unless you restrict them to the content which is tailored to them.

If you do so by making the whole of the game more difficult, you at last remove the roflstomp factor, but in the process you make regular builds essentially worthless and would ultimately be better served by simply letting players min-max their individual abilities and base stats every time they build a frame as opposed to locking the mechanic behind shrines.

Also, some of your challenges are... absurd. 3D Komi? Cooking? A snowball fight? And the whole idea of taking away a player's mods for the challenge is just more fake difficulty for the player to circumvent by simply choosing specific equipment and then scumming until they get the shrine they specifically prepared for. If you've got such a hate-boner for the core mechanic of selecting appropriate gear pre-mission that you'd not only give RNGsus control over which shrine appears out of 22 and counting, but also disable mods inside the dream space, then you might as well skip all those complications and just make them Operator Only.

Moving on to the Shadow Stalker and his Acolytes attacking during the meditation. The Damage Adaptation possessed by SS himself is basically the only thing resembling challenge in a straight up fight, and the Acolytes are edgy-looking canon fodder. Whatever level they're at or number they come in is a moot point since DE would be forced to balance it such that it would be reasonably possible for 3 active players fully loaded with Dragon Keys to fend them off before they killed a 4th helpless player, also fully loaded with Dragon Keys, while Life Support ticks down in the background and Infested are likely swarming the area as well.

Edited by Dreddeth
Typographical error.
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8 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

"To get even stronger," he says in defense of his game-breaking proposition, as DE continues reworking, nerfing, or straight-up deleting the ridiculous exploits like Old Miasma Saryn or Maiming Strike Atterax that players have MacGyver'd up out of bugs and broken mechanics. Real solid rationale you've got there, kiddo. It would be a shame if DE's brand of balance invalidated it.

Old Saryn exploit? I hardly ever used her, I remember her 4th was pretty powerful a while back though. It was caused by a bug? Or where the numbers just really high?

Maiming Strike Atterax? What? That is a bug, since Atterax is a rifle, and Maim is a melee mod that makes your spin attack have a crazy crit chance.

No need for insults.

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8 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

I want an entertaining challenge before I hit the C rotation, preferably independent of Mot or Arbitrations or Onslaught or whatever, not an endless cheese-making contest between DE and the players that sets the gameplay pendulum swinging wildly between the extremes of endless sh*t-kicking and getting my sh*t endlessly kicked. Lucky me, it looks like DE's going in my direction, albeit at roughly 20 mph.

Obviously they want to balance the game.
Don't know why you are ranting at me about it.

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8 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

At no point is the ability to simply pick the most broken combination of three, or even two, warframes' abilities and throw it on whatever warframe has the most advantageous base stats conducive to finding that entertaining challenge. As a tool in the player's kit, your proposal actually removes nuance concerning frame choice and build path, and as a balancing factor, it is too problematic and too demanding of far-reaching change.

It would only be "problematic" if warframe was a PvP game which it is not.

Most frames have at least one power that is barely used, some have two.
(i never use ember's first power for example)
Some have augments that make the power more useful, but they take-up a mod slot.
(like ember's 1st power for example)

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8 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

Giving players the ability to stick Warcry and Exalted Blade on Chroma to satisfy one's disturbing obsession with DPS, for example, means that you are now obligated to make something that presents a challenge for such builds, at least until the player base optimizes that down to nothing as they do. If you don't, then such builds simply roflstomp the entire game and edge out any other kind of build because it's a straight upgrade of the min-maxing variety rather than the sidegrade (arguable downgrade) of using Operators.

Warcry increases Melee damage, (not gun or power damage), as well as melee attack speed and armor,
while slowing enemies. (from wiki)

Vex Armor is all weapon damage, including melee, so that combo would make him pretty OP with melee weapons.

Ah, the whole, "the game becomes to easy so people have less fun" thing.
Yeah, that can be a problem, but I don't think it would be as bad as you might think.

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8 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

If you do so by introducing new content balanced around such builds, then you have this vast and intricate system that's only strictly necessary for however much of that content exists, and which still roflstomps and edges out regular builds in the rest of the game unless you restrict them to the content which is tailored to them.

They could just implement a leveling system where enemies level to you and your team.
There already is a bit of that, in the form of the Captain Vor boss-fight.
Captain Vor is the only enemy I know of that levels up with the player.
If I went to go fight him, even though the mission is like, level 5, he and his summoned dudes be level 40+.
When they implemented that I really though they'd do the same with everything, but haven't yet.

So, a way I can see it working, each mastery rank could increase enemy level,
the number of formas in your gear, the number of squad-members,
the power-rank of your gear, a lot of things they could do to make the game harder the better you are.
Then with Transcendent Wisdom, each rank would increase enemy levels further.

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9 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

If you do so by making the whole of the game more difficult, you at last remove the roflstomp factor, but in the process you make regular builds essentially worthless and would ultimately be better served by simply letting players min-max their individual abilities and base stats every time they build a frame as opposed to locking the mechanic behind shrines.

Enemy level scaling to your setup would fix all the problems.

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9 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

Also, some of your challenges are... absurd. 3D Komi? Cooking? A snowball fight? And the whole idea of taking away a player's mods for the challenge is just more fake difficulty for the player to circumvent by simply choosing specific equipment and then scumming until they get the shrine they specifically prepared for. If you've got such a hate-boner for the core mechanic of selecting appropriate gear pre-mission that you'd not only give RNGsus control over which shrine appears out of 22 and counting, but also disable mods inside the dream space, then you might as well skip all those complications and just make them Operator Only.

You know what Komi is right?
Iron Chef 2.0!
Have fun getting your Snowballs through Frost Prime's Globe.

But then you'd get to unlock those powers for all warframes, instead of the one you bring.
Operator melee weapons would be cool though for a melee only dual though.
Amp melee weapons, to replace your Void E blast attack.

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9 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

Moving on to the Shadow Stalker and his Acolytes attacking during the meditation. The Damage Adaptation possessed by SS himself is basically the only thing resembling challenge in a straight up fight, and the Acolytes are edgy-looking canon fodder. Whatever level they're at or number they come in is a moot point since DE would be forced to balance it such that it would be reasonably possible for 3 active players fully loaded with Dragon Keys to fend them off before they killed a 4th helpless player, also fully loaded with Dragon Keys, while Life Support ticks down in the background and Infested are likely swarming the area as well.

Maybe the Acolyts can also have the Sentient Shield that Shadow Stalker has?

The way you describe it sounds super cool and scary.

Then then you could main Nehza and Warding Halo everyone making it easier.

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8 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

"To get even stronger," he says in defense of his game-breaking proposition, as DE continues reworking, nerfing, or straight-up deleting the ridiculous exploits like Old Miasma Saryn or Maiming Strike Atterax that players have MacGyver'd up out of bugs and broken mechanics. Real solid rationale you've got there, kiddo. It would be a shame if DE's brand of balance invalidated it.

I want an entertaining challenge before I hit the C rotation, preferably independent of Mot or Arbitrations or Onslaught or whatever, not an endless cheese-making contest between DE and the players that sets the gameplay pendulum swinging wildly between the extremes of endless sh*t-kicking and getting my sh*t endlessly kicked. Lucky me, it looks like DE's going in my direction, albeit at roughly 20 mph.

At no point is the ability to simply pick the most broken combination of three, or even two, warframes' abilities and throw it on whatever warframe has the most advantageous base stats conducive to finding that entertaining challenge. As a tool in the player's kit, your proposal actually removes nuance concerning frame choice and build path, and as a balancing factor, it is too problematic and too demanding of far-reaching change.

Giving players the ability to stick Warcry and Exalted Blade on Chroma to satisfy one's disturbing obsession with DPS, for example, means that you are now obligated to make something that presents a challenge for such builds, at least until the player base optimizes that down to nothing as they do. If you don't, then such builds simply roflstomp the entire game and edge out any other kind of build because it's a straight upgrade of the min-maxing variety rather than the sidegrade (arguable downgrade) of using Operators.

If you do so by introducing new content balanced around such builds, then you have this vast and intricate system that's only strictly necessary for however much of that content exists, and which still roflstomps and edges out regular builds in the rest of the game unless you restrict them to the content which is tailored to them.

If you do so by making the whole of the game more difficult, you at last remove the roflstomp factor, but in the process you make regular builds essentially worthless and would ultimately be better served by simply letting players min-max their individual abilities and base stats every time they build a frame as opposed to locking the mechanic behind shrines.

Also, some of your challenges are... absurd. 3D Komi? Cooking? A snowball fight? And the whole idea of taking away a player's mods for the challenge is just more fake difficulty for the player to circumvent by simply choosing specific equipment and then scumming until they get the shrine they specifically prepared for. If you've got such a hate-boner for the core mechanic of selecting appropriate gear pre-mission that you'd not only give RNGsus control over which shrine appears out of 22 and counting, but also disable mods inside the dream space, then you might as well skip all those complications and just make them Operator Only.

Moving on to the Shadow Stalker and his Acolytes attacking during the meditation. The Damage Adaptation possessed by SS himself is basically the only thing resembling challenge in a straight up fight, and the Acolytes are edgy-looking canon fodder. Whatever level they're at or number they come in is a moot point since DE would be forced to balance it such that it would be reasonably possible for 3 active players fully loaded with Dragon Keys to fend them off before they killed a 4th helpless player, also fully loaded with Dragon Keys, while Life Support ticks down in the background and Infested are likely swarming the area as well.

DE said they wanted to make a system where other frames can learn other frames powers,
that's why the powers where all mods that took up mod slots like other mods in the beginning.

They then said they didn't know how to implement it anymore after removing the mod versions of the powers.

This shows a setup in which they could bring that idea back and possibly make it work.

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I'm with the others in that being able to swap out abilities of frames if you complete a different frame's challenge is not something that would be a good idea. There's a lot of intricacies unique to some of the frames that would make some of the abilities entirely useless to grab. Take for instance Nidus. His 3 and 4 would be entirely useless without his 1. And Nidus isn't the only frame that has something unique to them. Going back to Saryn, her 4 and 3 interact with her 1. Take Chroma's 4, and imagine it on any other frame. You have to consider the programming that will have to go into applying the armor and speed changes on another frame, and I'd really rather have more new content than playing mix and match on existing content that honestly does better without it. There's also the fact that you'll essentially have no challenge in deciding on a build, as you can just pick whatever skills that benefit from dual stat mods with no detrimental effects.

You have an idea already for essentially creating a sort of similar MR system for the skills on frames, and I'd stop there. The skills themselves are a part of a frame's character, and are a part of their theme. Imagining Effigy on Mag just breaks what little uniqueness and style that exists for the frames. Plus, you then have the issue of how do you plan to make the color passive of something like Effigy work on a frame that doesn't have that passive?

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3 minutes ago, xZeromusx said:

I'm with the others in that being able to swap out abilities of frames if you complete a different frame's challenge is not something that would be a good idea. There's a lot of intricacies unique to some of the frames that would make some of the abilities entirely useless to grab. Take for instance Nidus. His 3 and 4 would be entirely useless without his 1. And Nidus isn't the only frame that has something unique to them. Going back to Saryn, her 4 and 3 interact with her 1. Take Chroma's 4, and imagine it on any other frame. You have to consider the programming that will have to go into applying the armor and speed changes on another frame, and I'd really rather have more new content than playing mix and match on existing content that honestly does better without it. There's also the fact that you'll essentially have no challenge in deciding on a build, as you can just pick whatever skills that benefit from dual stat mods with no detrimental effects.

You have an idea already for essentially creating a sort of similar MR system for the skills on frames, and I'd stop there. The skills themselves are a part of a frame's character, and are a part of their theme. Imagining Effigy on Mag just breaks what little uniqueness and style that exists for the frames. Plus, you then have the issue of how do you plan to make the color passive of something like Effigy work on a frame that doesn't have that passive?

These are all great points.

hmm

Maybe instead of giving powers to a specific warframe, Transient wisdom can be a sort of Focus System for warframes?
Like, say instead of the first rank of a prime's wisdom giving you rank 0 of that prime's 1st power,
it gives an extra effect to that warframe's 1st power at rank 0.
Like with the augments, this could replace the augments.
There are some augs that I like, but have no mods to remove to fit it into my build.
This would allow you to have those, but without taking up mod slots.

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il y a 14 minutes, General_Durandal a dit :

These are all great points.

hmm

Maybe instead of giving powers to a specific warframe, Transient wisdom can be a sort of Focus System for warframes?
Like, say instead of the first rank of a prime's wisdom giving you rank 0 of that prime's 1st power,
it gives an extra effect to that warframe's 1st power at rank 0.
Like with the augments, this could replace the augments.
There are some augs that I like, but have no mods to remove to fit it into my build.
This would allow you to have those, but without taking up mod slots.

You have a better idea with this, IMO. There are many mods that I like, but I don't feel warrant destroying my current build for. I know a lot of people were not happy too when many skills in the game were essentially ripped apart in order to create augments. It might necessitate them finally addressing some of the frames that don't have augments for some of their skills. Further, I think that for the ease of implementation, and for the simplicity of programming, they could work much like the Exilus mod slots, and rather than being where you have a specific challenge for each frame (as I see you have some that you haven't thought up ideas for), they could be similar to the challenges that already exist in the Void maps. Various challenges, but they all award the same thing, a blueprint that you craft for an item that unlocks an augment slot for the frame. This would allow you to place whatever augment for that frame into a slot rather than limiting it to having to go through skills one by one. The augments could still drain mod resource, so it also gives players more incentive towards forma again, and makes use of your idea of unlocking skills earlier too when you do forma.

Edited by xZeromusx
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Okay, I think we can move past the questions of spamming, and Gish Galloping, and use some constructive criticism to troubleshoot this and polish it into a good idea. We finally have something going now and I'd hate for it to die because we're gnashing at one another.

 

So, General_Durandal, what I'd see is using your concepts of challenges to do both things, build another MR type system as well as give players a reward for completion of the challenges by introducing a new Exilus type system to unlock augment mod slots in the mod screen so that augments no longer disrupt people's builds and we can return some of the skills to their old former glory before they ripped them apart to make augments. It also gives players the versatility to either augment their skills or not. And continuing to have the augment mods drain mod resource necessitates some forma again, which makes your MR system a bit more useful. Currently, the way the mod slot screen is set up, I feel like they could squeeze one augment slot on the top row next to the Aura slot and the current Exilus slot without disturbing the Arcane slots.

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