Nyx Rework Opinions

[GooMaus]

Hello Devs,

 

After playing with Nyx on a few missions, it looks like she's gotten a bit better.  I really appreciate that her mind controlled target is now unkillable until the end of the Mind Control.  Psychic bolts being a debuff is nice.  There are still some changes that I think would positively affect Nyx and make her more of a team player, while also making it so that moves are worth being used in all circumstances.

 

• Mind Control
  • This one is pretty well done.  I like the one powerful controlled AI enemy.
     
  • The description needs to be updated that damage done to the enemy during the first few seconds gets (added? multiplied?) by the enemy's damage.  How does it stack with Mind Freak?  There's information missing.
     
    • AI
      • The AI could use some work.  Perhaps when the enemy becomes mind controlled their AI gets powered up?  I've mind controlled enemies and they just stand around and it wastes the mind control and it makes it seem like it isn't worth it.  Mind Control @ 200% + Mind Freak just seems to do nothing if they aren't firing.  Perhaps give them something like miniboss AI or stalker's AI or Acolyte AI but with a restricted skillset?  I dunno, they need to do more.
         
      • Additionally, if the AI encounters Limbo's Cataclysm, it freezes in place like all other AI, rendering it useless.  Can something be done for Nyx's AI controlled partner to fix this, but not the other AI, as it would remove Limbo's point control, but it would allow Nyx's partner the ability to clean up the edges of the point?
         
      • Depending on the enemy, and if the passive procs, the enemy will chase down other enemies and try to punch them or something to that effect.  I had a heavy gunner that put down their gun and chased after other enemies.  It didn't seem to be the intended effect.  Can someone take a look at this?  Thank you.
         
    • Stored Damage
      • Can the damage they take while being mind controlled be stored not just from you in the beginning but over the course of the mind control? I don't know if this is the current behavior, but I've "released" a mind controlled enemy and they've lived.  I think the idea is that they should die afterwards especially with all of the bullets they've absorbed.
         
    • Game Behavior
      • EDIT:  At the end of a defense wave if the mind controlled target is the only mob alive, it will count as an enemy.  This should be remedied if it's something you've pumped a lot of damage into or it's a rather powerful enemy (someone got attacked by a faction and you MC'd them or something). 
         
• Psychic Bolts
  • I really love the debuff.  It turned them from damage into utility.  Thank you.
    • Recast/Refresh
      • Right now if you've got bolts out there, you can't recast.  You can't tell what that bolt is doing, it could be chasing down an enemy like an enemy and a butterfly (see: Titania joke).  It would be nice if we could just recast and it would destroy the bolts that were out there and cast new ones.
         
      • If this isn't an option, perhaps hold down the button to recall the bolts and resend.  That feels clunky, and the above option seems like the better option.
         
  • Thanks for making it so that only 125% power strength is needed for capping out the debuff, it leaves room for other stuff.
     
• Chaos
  • This move is a great CC.  I love it, but there are a few times when it's suboptimal, such as Survival when you want mobs running at you, or at a point.  I have been going back and forth with another player who also happens to be a programmer, and he came up with a great suggestion.  What if Chaos was a targeted king of the hill style CC?
     
    • Chaos and Chaos Sphere remain mostly the same.
       
    • Chaos becomes a one-handed cast in the effort to keep things quick moving in Warframe, because most moves are fast.
       
    • Nyx targets and casts spawns a large phantom Nyx a la Decoy Loki.  Any enemy within Chaos' range is drawn to it.  
       
    • Once they get within a certain range they open fire on each other.  Our reasoning is that they're cramping and pushing each other around so they're getting pissed at each other and start shooting, but we'll stick with the original chaos Nyx mind control.  
       
    • So say my Chaos has a range of 50m, the firing range would be 10m or so.  Both affected by ability range.  But this would allow for us to make the mobs approach us at target points so we could make them drop life support/kuva harvesters/etc where and when we need them, and set them up for AoE frames, really defining this move as a CC move.
       
    • Example move definition and stats:
    • Chaos
      • Nyx controls the battlefield by making enemies within range of Chaos rush to a point to fight Nyx, but only find their friends instead, and are mind controlled to fight!
      • Style: Ground Target, One-Handed
      • Ability Radius: 25m
      • Fighting Radius: 10m
      • Duration: 25s
         
    • This would allow us to move the battlefield effectively, and multiple casts would allow us to partition battlefields.  Also it would help with Defense missions as it would pull enemies towards the Cryopod/whatever we're defending.

I don't really have anything to say about Absorb because I rarely use it.  If I do, it's because I use Assimilate and turn Nyx from walking paper into a tank.  Ideally Absorb would be replaced with mass mind control while giving her damage deflect to her minions sort of like Nekros with his augment, and could make her minions explode like Emma Frost.  But I don't know how much of that would be feasible.  And I may have a slight thing for Emma Frost.

Thank you for the rework.  For Psychic Bolts alone, they help.

-- EE

Edited December 19, 2018 by ErraticEngineer

[XenMaster]

Psychic Bolts should be spammable cast.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

Psychic Bolts always was a Spammable ability, really have no clue why they would change that.

[GooMaus]

I'd like to add some information about Mind Control the more that I've messed around with it.  I have a question to DE that will help really determine my idea of what needs to be done to Mind Control to really make it useful.  

1. Is Mind Control another form of CC?
   • What I mean by this is you Mind Control a target, they're invincible for the duration and act as a sort of "taunt" off of you.  That, combined with Chaos, act as a very good CC off of Nyx and onto other targets.  If it's sole purpose is to be CC with damage being a bonus, then it's working as designed, as enemies go after the MC'd AI, and don't really chase Nyx after watching their friend start shooting other friends.
   • If this is the case, can the move description be updated to say it increases threat on the mob (and the mechanic adjusted so threat is drawn to the mind controlled mob), and perhaps some of the bullets absorbed increases it's damage to keep threat on it?  Not much since you pump it up in the beginning, but enough to keep things interested in it.
2. If it's not, and it's a damage + CC move, what can we do to avoid the defense > attack scaling problem?
   • Later on in the game the defense of enemies outscales their attack power otherwise we'd be multicolored splats on the wall like Inklings instead of Tennos.  However, this move is infinitely scaling because of the fact that I can walk up to a level 120 mob and mind control them and boom, I have a scaled mob.  Though they won't be able to really do much to their friends because of their damage being much less than their defense.   This can be seen as low as level 30, where with Mind Freak and 200-300% damage Mind Control, mobs take a decent amount of time to die.  Only on low level maps will they die quickly.
   • One idea is to have them temporarily get the Tenno weapon stats and then boost them by Mind Freak + Mind Control Boost.  That might even things out a bit.
   • Another idea is to just make the scaling even higher, instead of 500%, something higher.  I don't know a good number.  I can't really sit down and crunch out a good number for scaling as I'm not a dev working for DE, I'm merely a player.
   • If Mallet can do something to make mobs die quickly, there has to be a way to take enemy damage and reflect/scale it to do good damage to enemies.  We just need to apply this same formula to enemies under mind control.

As much as I would like to use Mind Control, right now it's reserved for super powerful mobs that appear once every now and again otherwise it's not worth the time casting when I can just kill things with my weapon.  Even then, the super powerful mobs don't always attack either due to her passive or just because the AI doesn't always kick in and they wander around taking cover even though they're invincible.  MC'd AI needs to be revamped to understand it's not going to die and be more kamikaze, rush in, and shoot everything in sight.  Or if you MC'd a sniper, stay back and pluck off enemies from a distance for you.

I really want to use Mind Control.  Right now I can't justify Mind Freak and Mind Control in my rotation because other things do the job better.  The rework is a step in the right direction.

Thank you for reading, and I hope I haven't upset anyone. 

-- EE

 

[Trig]

hi, i really like Nyx a lot, and i call myself a Nyx main.

But i thought Nyx passive were going to change? along with the new updates as part of the rework?
why its still displayed as the old one that disarm enemies?

and i'm still getting pretty much decent hits from the enemies, even at far distances.

and if the passive is there, is it only applies to human form enemies?

since i get a headshot before from the rollers on Vallis.

the corpus patrol roller.

Here's the screencap
https://imgur.com/a/HN85wup

[GooMaus]

I would like to call myself a Nyx main, and right now it feels like she's on the cusp of being a great frame, she just needs a little push.  Her Chaos is a great CC, but not optimal, her Absorb with Assimilate turns her into a walking tank, and her Psychic Bolts strip shields and armor.  That's a great way to control enemies.  

 

I agree with the above post that I'm getting shot really easily from distance with Nyx.

 

If we can fix her Mind Control, give her Chaos a target, and mess around a little with the mechanics a bit I think Nyx will be a great controlling frame that people will be underestimating.  She won't be topping kill charts but she'll be making sure others will.

 

-- EE

[XenMaster]

Nyx's mind control with mind freak cannot do proper dps if the enemies has armor/shield, thats where Psychic Bolts comes in.

 

Unfortunately, Psychic Bolts now cannot be spammed which is bad.

 

If they want to keep Psychic Bolts as right now with deactivate feature, they need to increase number of bolts by 10.

 

An ew mechanic that "command" Mind Control and Chaos to attack the psychic bolt victim would also help your CC to prevent objectives getting dmged.

[GooMaus]

Psychic bolts could always be an aura or blast too.  Strips armor and has a cool down.  Instead of originating from her it originates from her MC'd minion if she has one.  Just an off the cuff idea.

The idea with the Chaos change is to make it so we can move the battlefield where we want it, making Nyx the controller of the battlefield.  If there's anything else to help, then definitely throw it in there.  Psychic Bolts being primary targets of the group sound like a great idea.  Like glowing beacons.  Almost lanterns if you will. 😛

-- EE

[George_T]

i don't like her 2 as much now it's nice and scales well, but i use to run a augmented build with it and was able to lock down rooms and do much much more with that ability, for me and the way i used her 2 before this current one is a letdown.

also everything else is cool...feels the same really overall i'm happy 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by George_T

[GooMaus]

With her 2 now, it scales.  It also is one of the only moves that can effectively render high armor and high shield mobs (meaning you don't need to take specific damage types in theory) much weaker.  If the devs fix it so it can be recast and it doesn't hit the same mob twice so that Nyx can strip the armor off of all enemies in range, make it an AoE blast, cone, etc., then it would be one of the most powerful defense mitigation abilities in the game.

I'm guessing before you would run in and confuse the whole room and then kill them all?  I can see that still being viable if the devs fix the recast.  I think that's a step back, and I hope they fix it.

-- EE

[Tiltskillet]

On 2018-12-18 at 8:29 PM, ErraticEngineer said:

Chaos

• This move is a great CC.  I love it, but there are a few times when it's suboptimal, such as Survival when you want mobs running at you, or at a point.  I have been going back and forth with another player who also happens to be a programmer, and he came up with a great suggestion.  What if Chaos was a targeted king of the hill style CC?
   

 

I love this idea, and it would make Nyx a lot better for me.

Unfortunately Chaos seems to be well-liked enough among players and the devs seem satisfied enough with it, that I have a hard time imagining it getting changed that much. 

Working that behavior into the augment would make it very useful though, and might be more realistic.

[GooMaus]

If the devs put it to a vote, or made a second augment or something, it could be done.  It might mean making extra steps to make it viable in all situations, but I think if we talk to the devs and tell them what we want from the character without going "I want to push 1 and win." that they'll work with us.

[Neightrix]

I don't see why Psychic Bolts damage needed to be taken away. At least before you could spam it and kill enemies under level 40. I don't really have any better suggestions for it, though. She's just a hard to deal with when damage frames exist. With enemies almost all being the same and dealt with the same way, it's hard for a non-direct damage frame to have a significant place. Maybe her 1 could grant a big accuracy bonus and have a reduced retarget time so they kill enemies faster?

Edited December 20, 2018 by Neightrix

[Leuca]

1. Mind Control - Fix the AI, up the scaling on damage some more. Stop making damage dealt during 4 second window count towards target death, but make any more damage count like it currently does. If I want to keep a particularly strong enemy under my control, the game simply doesn't allow for that, and I can't play around mechanics. Playing to the ability's strengths means your target dies almost without exception for higher level players.

2. Psychic Bolts - An assortment of a few options I can think of as secondary functions.
- Needs to be recastable. This should honestly be non-negotiable; it's too clunky right now. Really, if an entire map is chock full of enemies, and I want to burn all my energy to make at least *most* of them vulnerable, why can't I do that? I'd even be ok with giving it the same pseudo-random targeting instead of making it choose unaffected targets.

- Because it does no damage, and the ability can fly away very quickly, you'll sometimes be left wondering where affected enemies are. I would propose giving them a map indicator on top of making them glow slightly. Giving Nyx additional stealth mechanics can't hurt. Map indicator can be exclusively for Nyx.

3. Chaos - Doesn't need more tweaking imo except possibly for visual indicators still being a bit obtrusive sometimes. It's literally called Chaos and people are now demanding we organize it.

4. Absorb will never be a viable damage ability unless Psychic Bolts can stop being number locked, and even then it's never going to be great. Nyx is a telekinetic, yet can't even amp up damage the ability absorbs with power strength. Imo the multiplier and knockdown when the ability ends should increase based on either power strength or damage absorbed; keep the emphasis on her telekinesis.

[GooMaus]

I'd like to see Chaos be targeted so that we can have controlled chaos, we direct where the chaos goes and then the AI takes over.  I think that's fair. Nyx pushes them in the direction and then they take over.  The survival point and the idea of having the battle moved where we need it would make Nyx a great frame to have where point defense is concerned, and it would give us a way to avoid damage too.  

As for Absorb, this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I think it should be scrapped.  Absorb + Assimilate turns her into a slow moving invincible tank, so I can see the utility in it, but it kind of is at odds with the rest of her kit and her theme in general.  Ideally this should be something like a mass bullet redirect where she controls all bullets on the battlefield towards enemies heads for X duration with Y powered up if fired from enemy guns, or something to that effect.  Let the PCs keep their autonomy but let the NPCs lose theirs.  This allows her to keep the damage mitigation from 4, apply damage dealing from 4, keep up with the theme of her telekinetic powers, and if need be can still be channeled.  

It really depends on the level of telekinetic power we're saying Nyx has.  If she's someone who can make a pencil tumble off a desk, that's one thing.  If she's Jean Grey or Professor X level powerful, we should be considering what she's really capable of.

-- EE

[AlienOvermind]

All her abilities are a bit flawed. Mind Control suffers from horrible AI that makes controlled enemy stay idly instead of mowing down his former comrades. Chaos is not fully reliable as enemies would still attack players quite often. Absorb deals tiny damage. But all those things are fine. Kinda. I mean, don't expect much from 1st ability, Chaos is still good even if's not 100% foolproof and Absorb can still be used as a great defensive tool.

But. My biggest issue with Nyx rework is hard cap on the number of enemies debuffed by Psychic Bolts. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE (insert Vay Hek pic here). Psychic Bolts needs to be spammable. Or it should be turned into some fairly big AoE, similar to Petrify.

[GooMaus]

Agreed.  With Vay Hek and everything else.  I was hoping to main Nyx, I remember back when I made this account that she was a neat concept but rough around the edges, and was hoping the rework was going to bring new life to her.

[Tiltskillet]

20 hours ago, Leuca said:

Chaos - Doesn't need more tweaking imo except possibly for visual indicators still being a bit obtrusive sometimes. It's literally called Chaos and people are now demanding we organize it.

It's literally just a name and names can be changed. 😛

But with @ErraticEngineer 's  idea, Chaos would still be pretty chaotic.  (Which is good, because I like the nod to Nyx's mythology and would like to keep the name.) And it would be a heck-ton more useful and tactical.  I'm not saying it's weak now, by any means.  But its not interactive at all, and it's often counterproductive in a squad.

Getting mass quantities of enemies to lump together and fight is totally something she should be good at, and it would make her much more desirable on a team.  I'd love to see this on the augment if nothing else. 

 

[GooMaus]

I'm glad to see a couple of people behind the idea.  I don't know how to ping DE people to make sure they see it, but with enough people maybe they'll poke their heads in on this.  I think with a targeted Chaos Sphere (I agree, augment is a good idea so people have choice) we can move and partition the battlefield (have two separate chaoses going or what have you) and split enemy ranks especially when it gets really hectic (Kuva farming 40m+)