Should We Have A New Energy System?

[Novashank]

Let's face it: we're a bunch of homicidal latex fetishists powered by... blue-balls. BLUE-BALLS!!!

 

Is that really what we want? Does that really make sense? Why do most of the enemies we kill happen to have a glowing blue Earth globe in their pockets? Shouldn't we change at least one part of that description?

 

Okay, seriously now. You either have trouble scrounging around for enough energy orbs to use your abilities reasonably often or you're playing (mobile) defense and you hit the energy orb jackpot and you can use all your abilities, even your "ult" to your heart's content. Isn't that a little ridiculous? Doesn't that make using your abilities feel either too precious or too stale?

 

Now I've tried to bring this up in Region chat several times, only to be shot down by the change-aphobic due to a lack of consideration. I hate to say that we need an energy system in place that only countless RPG's before this have used, but hey: it's tried and true, isn't it? That's right, I'm referring to the classic energy system based on steady regeneration. Of course, that's not to say that energy mods would be completely useless; for instance, Energy Siphon could be altered so that instead of giving you a regen in the first place, it would boost the natural regen. Maybe it could even be changed so that you gain energy when you kill enemies, which would better suit the title "Energy Siphon." Flow and Streamline wouldn't even need to be changed if we were to switch to the steady energy regen system.

 

Why are so many people against this? I understand that system is "mainstream," but it's obviously so for a reason. If you think that the system in place is fine or that my "idea" is dumb and you decide to tell me that, please tell me WHY you feel that way. And please don't tell me you think running over blue-balls is fun.

[DjGoldenMane]

well what if you cant kill the enemy or wait 7 min for the energy to recharge or find a blue orb and one more thing the only thing that would need to change would be the look 

[Satwo]

ive said this before and ill say it again:

 

its already bad enough when a 450 energy vauban with max streamline feels the need to light up an AFK rhino like a christmas tree, and with 4x max energy siphon he will litterally only run out when the first cast starts to wear off, and then he just looks around a little bit and he will have most of his energy back.

 

we REALLY dont need this happening. its the same with mags spamming pull, or embers casting fireball. its just unessesary.

[Novashank]

well what if you cant kill the enemy or wait 7 min for the energy to recharge or find a blue orb and one more thing the only thing that would need to change would be the look 

 

Who said you should have to wait for a long time with the built-in regen? I'm thinking you should get 5 energy a second so that you can use your 1st ability every 5 seconds and your ult every 20 seconds without Streamline (maybe it could be 5 energy every 2 seconds if that's still too much).

[Novashank]

ive said this before and ill say it again:

 

its already bad enough when a 450 energy vauban with max streamline feels the need to light up an AFK rhino like a christmas tree, and with 4x max energy siphon he will litterally only run out when the first cast starts to wear off, and then he just looks around a little bit and he will have most of his energy back.

 

we REALLY dont need this happening. its the same with mags spamming pull, or embers casting fireball. its just unessesary.

 

Haha, I hear you. But that's my point exactly. It's just stupid how easy it can be to get energy most of the time while occasionally it's scarce. Like I said in my last comment, 5 energy a second can't be that bad. With the energy orb system you have the potential to get 300 a second, as you're well aware. In this case, it also shouldn't be ridiculous to be able to get 1.2 more energy a second with a maxed Energy Siphon, giving you at most almost 10 a second.

 

You have to keep in mind that this would REPLACE the energy orbs, so no, you wouldn't constantly have 450 energy.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Novashank

[Law.]

Running over blue balls is fun.

[Stefe]

To be honest, I don't mind this idea. Enemies don't really use energy as a resource anyway, so it wouldn't make sense to have orbs drop off them in the first place. Perhaps the regeneration rate could start off with five every two seconds, then increased after installing an Orokin Reactor (what do reactors do?).

[Novashank]

Running over blue balls is fun.

 

Haha I was waiting for that!

[Novashank]

To be honest, I don't mind this idea. Enemies don't really use energy as a resource anyway, so it wouldn't make sense to have orbs drop off them in the first place. Perhaps the regeneration rate could start off with five every two seconds, then increased after installing an Orokin Reactor (what do reactors do?).

 

Yeah I'm not sure exactly what the rate should be but it should be based on 5 like the ability costs.

 

As for what an Orokin Reactor (a.k.a "gold potato") is: A one-use item that is applied to the Warframe of your choosing to PERMANENTLY double that Warframe's mod cost capacity (i.e. 2 points instead of just 1 for rank 1, 6 for rank 3, 60 total at rank 30). Once you put it on your Warframe, NOTHING can take it off. Not you, not a Forma, not even selling the Warframe.

 

In case you also don't know what an Orokin Catalyst (a.k.a "blue" potato) is, it's the exact same thing as a Reactor but for your weapons instead.

 

Any other questions? Just visit http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/WARFRAME_Wiki .

Edited September 13, 2013 by Novashank

[neKroMancer]

Anything to free me from RNG-based orb mechanic. ANYTHING.

[Prii01]

That's right, I'm referring to the classic energy system based on steady regeneration.

 

you mean the classic variation like in diablo ? ... oh wait bad example ... how about might and magic ... ah nvm that was a bad example too ... how about final fantasy that should use the "classic" energy system you are talking about ... oh wait ... lets see whats a huge rpg ... lets go wit WoW ... ah now i see where you come from ... kids these days and what they call "classics *shrugs*

 

if you find yourself running out of power much use energy siphon

if you have power to spare use a damage mod

if your friend is using a trinity use damage mod

 

i don't see why you would need to change how the orbs work ... +new mod +nekros ... so i doubt DE is planing to change anything about it

 

i don't think your idea is dumb but imo a steady stream of power regeneration that would equal the orbs you collect would most likely waste a huge amount of power since you don't have stuff to kill or a reason to use other abilities ... i prefer the orb system with an additional low regeneration (through energy siphon) and in higher waves a trinity

Edited September 13, 2013 by Prii01

[low1991]

Who said you should have to wait for a long time with the built-in regen? I'm thinking you should get 5 energy a second so that you can use your 1st ability every 5 seconds and your ult every 20 seconds without Streamline (maybe it could be 5 energy every 2 seconds if that's still too much).

what you'r say is equal to saying, each warframe shld have their seperate passive abilities.

[Psyclosarin]

<p>Oh this is going to get some flame but.....<br />

<br />

Why not cooldowns instead of energy? Energy cost/Max energy mods could be replaced to be cooldown reduction.<br />

<br />

*runs away*</p>

Edited September 13, 2013 by Psyclosarin

[BlackBearStyle]

<p>Oh this is going to get some flame but.....<br />

<br />

Why not cooldowns instead of energy? Energy cost/Max energy mods could be replaced to be cooldown reduction.<br />

<br />

*runs away*</p>

The skills damages would have to be changed entirely to warrant Cooldowns IMHO.

[Psyclosarin]

The skills damages would have to be changed entirely to warrant Cooldowns IMHO.

 

Well they're doing a total damage system overhaul anyhow so it could be worthwhile?  Possibly x amount of uses plus cooldowns? E.G you could spam your #1 ability 5 times but each one would have a 10 second cooldown so you could keep casting if you spaced them apart? Then say x3 for the number 2, x2 for the number 3 and x1 for the number 4. If you see where I'm going? Can't recall where I've seen this system before.

Also no idea what happened to the formatting in my OP..

[MeteorKing]

A simple reply would be "no."  A better one would be "energy needs to drop less."  A good answer has yet to be found.

[Stefe]

Yeah I'm not sure exactly what the rate should be but it should be based on 5 like the ability costs.

 

As for what an Orokin Reactor (a.k.a "gold potato") is: A one-use item that is applied to the Warframe of your choosing to PERMANENTLY double that Warframe's mod cost capacity (i.e. 2 points instead of just 1 for rank 1, 6 for rank 3, 60 total at rank 30). Once you put it on your Warframe, NOTHING can take it off. Not you, not a Forma, not even selling the Warframe.

 

In case you also don't know what an Orokin Catalyst (a.k.a "blue" potato) is, it's the exact same thing as a Reactor but for your weapons instead.

 

Any other questions? Just visit http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/WARFRAME_Wiki .

 

Oh, no I meant ACTUAL reactors. I was referring to how they generate energy and to implement it into the game as such.

[MeteorKing]

Oh, no I meant ACTUAL reactors. I was referring to how they generate energy and to implement it into the game as such.

Yes, they generate more energy for moding.  Mods use up power, reactors give more of it.

[gell]

I brought this up months ago, but the reaction is always the same. You'll get a lot of opposition from people who are afraid of change (they'll likely cite things they think would be worse but really are non-issues), or people who think you just mean to do things at face value like only removing the balls and calling it done.

I even talked to Steve at E3 in June about how collecting blue balls for energy was odd, especially breaking canisters just to do what we're experts at. You could be 1 energy off, but nope, you won't be able to shake the ground at all using Banshee's Quake. It's like she can't do it at all and you have to hunt down energy. Steve even said they were looking to fix that, but the best I've seen was they slightly buffed energy siphon when they made it into an Aura. Didn't really do much, really.

Of course, sometimes in this game, we have a plethora of blue balls. Use Nova's M Prime, blow everything up, and 8 blue balls fly out into Nova's mouth and she can do it again immediately, so of course you will get people who think any change will make Nova more OP, and others who say energy is sometimes not available, so it's all a huge mess.

I suggest the frames have slow regen, with energy earned by playing better, or more skillfully. Slide kills, stealth kills, and like pulling off a super move in Street Fighter, you don't gain more energy when you pull off a super. In a system without balls anyway, this would work well. Blowing up a room with M Prime would not completely refill Nova for her to do it again. You could even have weapons that add energy per hit. There are a lot of ways to give the player energy without it being too slow, too easy, or feed the "press 4 to win" loop.

But most people, as much as they might think otherwise, are very close minded and will tell you the game is fine how it is, or funnily enough, that it's "bad enough as it is" so they don't want change. Doesn't even make sense.

Btw, DE already addressed cooldowns. Warframes used to have cooldowns way early in development. They don't anymore because cooldowns are stupid. They artificially keep you from pulling off moves that should be based on your skill, not just time. They're lazy designer tricks. And you can't just let the smaller abilities have short cooldowns. That seems to be a popular argument. If that's the case then why put a cooldown at all? So there's no room for cooldowns. DE said they're redoing stamina and making it more important in the future. Maybe energy will tie into it as well.

Edited September 13, 2013 by gell

[neKroMancer]

I brought this up months ago, but the reaction is always the same. You'll get a lot of opposition from people who are afraid of change (they'll likely cite things they think would be worse but really are non-issues), or people who think you just mean to do things at face value like only removing the balls and calling it done.

I even talked to Steve at E3 in June about how collecting blue balls for energy was odd, especially breaking canisters just to do what we're experts at. You could be 1 energy off, but nope, you won't be able to shake the ground at all using Banshee's Quake. It's like she can't do it at all and you have to hunt down energy. Steve even said they were looking to fix that, but the best I've seen was they slightly buffed energy siphon when they made it into an Aura. Didn't really do much, really.

Of course, sometimes in this game, we have a plethora of blue balls. Use Nova's M Prime, blow everything up, and 8 blue balls fly out into Nova's mouth and she can do it again immediately, so of course you will get people who think any change will make Nova more OP, and others who say energy is sometimes not available, so it's all a huge mess.

I suggest the frames have slow regen, with energy earned by playing better, or more skillfully. Slide kills, stealth kills, and like pulling off a super move in Street Fighter, you don't gain more energy when you pull off a super. In a system without balls anyway, this would work well. Blowing up a room with M Prime would not completely refill Nova for her to do it again. You could even have weapons that add energy per hit. There are a lot of ways to give the player energy without it being too slow, too easy, or feed the "press 4 to win" loop.

But most people, as much as they might think otherwise, are very close minded and will tell you the game is fine how it is, or funnily enough, that it's "bad enough as it is" so they don't want change. Doesn't even make sense.

Btw, DE already addressed cooldowns. Warframes used to have cooldowns way early in development. They don't anymore because cooldowns are stupid. They artificially keep you from pulling off moves that should be based on your skill, not just time. They're lazy designer tricks. And you can't just let the smaller abilities have short cooldowns. That seems to be a popular argument. If that's the case then why put a cooldown at all? So there's no room for cooldowns. DE said they're redoing stamina and making it more important in the future. Maybe energy will tie into it as well.

I made the same proposal once and I was amazed how the community reacted to it. While they have been whining pretty hard about RNG doesn't give them BPs, they sure seem fine and dandy about blue balls being based on RNG.

I believe skill-based regen is the way to deal with the problem. It incentivize players to plays better, keep the game fast-paced, and reduce the hassle of collecting energy orbs which totally breaks the pace of the game. However, we have to tackle with killstealing problem that will rise from this method.

[MeteorKing]

I made the same proposal once and I was amazed how the community reacted to it. While they have been whining pretty hard about RNG doesn't give them BPs, they sure seem fine and dandy about blue balls being based on RNG.

Two different concepts.  

 

One is RNG for drops, a heavily ingrained idea that encourages players to do things more than once and increases longevity of the game.

 

The other your ability to actually use your frame being at the whim of chance.

Edited September 13, 2013 by MeteorKing

[neKroMancer]

Two different concepts.  

 

One is RNG for drops, a heavily ingrained idea that encourages players to do things more than once and increases longevity of the game.

 

The other your ability to actually use your frame being at the whim of chance.

It's the same, imo. Things that are regulated by chance and beyond our control. One is a major roadblock and requires grind to compensate. For the sake of lengthen the game, I accept it. Another simply make any rational players save their energy just for ultimate since it's potentially most cost-effective power in all frames' arsenal.

This one simply creates lot of troubles in term of balance and gameplay.

[Zakalwe]

Energy regen would be a good change, imo.

 

Fast enough so that lower powers can be spammed, yet Ultimates would be spaced out a little.

 

Power spam is fine, ultimate spam is not.

[Fearzffs]

Hey I got a dum idea why not add something that must be in the game like a @(*()&#036; cool down. Put a 3minute cd on ultimates 2 minute on stupid skills that you spam all the time to protect the pot (snow globe) and remove the energy completely. This way you will have skills that you will spam every 15 seconds for example and skills that you will need to save for when you really need em. This might make the game actually fun

[Azamagon]

How about this, which i posted in another thread discussing energy (and was VERY well received):

 

My take on it (inspired by some other guy, think he was called Securitywyrm)

 

TL;DR: Abilities have individual "cooldowns", when cooldown is done the ability costs 0 energy, but abilities are still spammable, although costs energy (relative to the remaining cooldown) if you don't wait for their "cooldowns" to finish. Energy then becomes more of an emergency-resource.

 

Longer explanation:

* Each ability has a pseudo-cooldown. When it is off cooldown, your next ability costs ZERO energy! When it is running its cooldown though, you can still cast it, but the ability now costs energy relative to the remaining cooldown!

* For example, let's say Ember's Fireball has a 10 second "cooldown" and still costs maximum 25 energy. If you cast it when the cooldown is done, it costs 0 energy. If you then wait 2 seconds and cast it again, it only costs 20 energy (8 / 10 * 25 = 20), and the cooldown now restarts again.

This way, you can use your abilities carefully and free of cost if you are willing to wait for your cooldowns, or you can still spam them at the cost of wasting your energy.

* Each ability has its own seperate "cooldown", meaning it is best to use ALL your abilities as varied as possible. It also means you can make more powerful abilities (such as ultimates) have longer cooldowns and play around more to balance them better

* Even weaker abilities (although, i still think most abilities needs changing) would have more use as they would be free of cost every now and then! Their cooldowns can then also be a lot shorter than others, further increasing their values.

* The hud/UI needs to indicate the abilities' remaining cooldowns (Could be displayed similarly to how they show them in DotA for example)

 

On top of this system i would also overhaul a few other things:

* Energy orbs should either be a lot more rare, and/or give a lot less energy (like 10 energy each) or be scrapped altogether (I don't like scrapping them completely though, just toned down in frequency and/or power)

* All Warframes should have a slight innate energy regen too (like 0,5 energy/sec). This could also vary (very slightly) between each Warframe.

* Auras should not stack anymore (otherwise Energy Siphon would be even MORE overpowered), although most of them should then also be buffed i guess (and they should also have no polarities, so it is easier to switch between them).

* Streamline then needs a revamp: Reducing energy costs and/or ability "cooldowns", whatever is the most balanced.

* We have ammo boxes and healing "potions". Why don't we have energy "potions" too? (Thus, potentially less waiting for "cooldowns" for the impatient people!)

 

All points are important there, so don't skim it through, read it thoroughly please!

 

EDIT: This also makes "no energy" nightmare runs more doable (since you can still cast your abilities, although not nearly as much as normal)

Edited September 13, 2013 by Azamagon