Should We Have A New Energy System?

[Zh40]

@Zh40

And the S-Wraith has no mastery requirement, and a lot of other *very* damaging weapons have no mastery requirement. Meaning that it doesn't render my point moot at all. Because my point was that your suggestion REMOVES the teanwork incentive from a game.

It goes from a game of teamwork to: who can get/steal the most kills to be able to use their abilities.

That is not a good change for Pugs at all, and would make them far worse than they currently are.

Would you rather instead of basing it on kills, give enemies a HP buff and have the energy received based on combos with melee, guns, like in the original chrono cross game?

I supposed this is more A la devil may cry with its devil trigger scheme.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Zh40

[Tsukinoki]

@Zh40

The biggest issue I can see with using a 'combo' system is that unless you make every enemy a meatwall you're penalizing someone for bringing a powerful weapon to the game by removing the ability for them, and their allies, to use powers.

Someone brings an Ogris to a match, how many combos are realistically going to be created VS the number of enemies he is removing from the area?

You could say: "If they bring a weapon like that they dont need abilities..." but then you push the frames that have useful (or needed in some cases) CC abilities to being pretty much forced to bring along the weaker weapons in order to be able to provide any benefit to the team, such as Frost with snowglobe. If he wants a chance to use the snowglobe then he had best bring along a sub par weapon solely so that he can get a high 'combo' and keep up the ability to cast the snowglobe whenever needed. If he brings along a weapon that kills the enemy too quickly then he simply wont be able to use his snowglobe when needed.

You're also penalizing the people who like to play around with their abilities in matches by bringing along powerful weapons as well.

It becomes: if you want to use an ability bring a weak weapon; otherwise bring something that can actually kill things.

I cant see how that would really be anything but a detraction compared to the current system.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[jpvi1207]

not exactly "new energy", but a cooldown on skills would be ideal

[Zh40]

The theme of this topic is the fact that people are spamming their abilities. If you have a weapon that is OP, then by all means use it, and you're probably not going to get much power from it because you are so op, there would not really be a point of using your abilities until you rack up a nice kill-combo instead of just a straight up hit-combo.

You're forgetting that enemies get stronger. Higher level enemies allow for higher combos, even with strong weapons. It balances weapons vs abilities and how OP we actually want the warframes to be.

[ScorpDK]

the Blue Energy Orbs are a basic, Arcade'y way to recover energy that nobody needs to be a genius for to figure it out.

 

However, as a few of the people stated, sometimes you have excess energy, sometimes you're completely dry on energy--- especially on solo-defense's later waves,where they just won't drop at all and the enemies just get stronger and stronger, and you would love to have enough power to fire off that skill to down the dude demolishing your artifact...

 

Energy Siphon as Aura has improved the game by allowing you to gain energy at a much faster rate, with 4 people giving you enough recovery rate to use your basic ability every 10-15 seconds.

In Solo-Play, however, you're depending on yourself and that's where you'll most likely need it even more, given you have to deal with everything yourself.

 

Some possible ideas include:

 

- Passive Regeneration, depending on their type (tanking frames having a slower regen than casters)

- Melee Mod(s) that allow you to feed your energy bar by attacking enemies, converting damage into energy.

- Meditation, sitting down and recovering your energy as long as you are not attacked. The longer you sit, the deeper the meditation becomes and the energy recovery speeds up further. (Gradually increasing, so quickly sitting down has little effect).

 

RNG blue orb drops are not the way to go, IMO.

[DiabolusUrsus]

As with anyone who isn't instantly allergic to the suggestion, the main thing is taking the RNG system out of the ability system. By doing this, two major things will be accomplished:

1. Abilities will be a consistent aspect of gameplay for each individual Warframe, providing a much better opportunity for the development of unique playstyles.

2. The main reason why so many Warframe abilities are considered overpowered/underpowered is because it is possible in some circumstances to spam a given ability repeatedly for maximum effect. Ultimates are particularly guilty of this.  By implementing a system that limits consecutive ability usage but promotes consistent usage, skills can be rebalanced to a more level playing field.

If anyone can link the thread with the heat gauge suggestion, that one was absolutely brilliant.

[litlit]

How about this, which i posted in another thread discussing energy (and was VERY well received):

 

My take on it (inspired by some other guy, think he was called Securitywyrm)

 

TL;DR: Abilities have individual "cooldowns", when cooldown is done the ability costs 0 energy, but abilities are still spammable, although costs energy (relative to the remaining cooldown) if you don't wait for their "cooldowns" to finish. Energy then becomes more of an emergency-resource.

 

Longer explanation:

* Each ability has a pseudo-cooldown. When it is off cooldown, your next ability costs ZERO energy! When it is running its cooldown though, you can still cast it, but the ability now costs energy relative to the remaining cooldown!

* For example, let's say Ember's Fireball has a 10 second "cooldown" and still costs maximum 25 energy. If you cast it when the cooldown is done, it costs 0 energy. If you then wait 2 seconds and cast it again, it only costs 20 energy (8 / 10 * 25 = 20), and the cooldown now restarts again.

This way, you can use your abilities carefully and free of cost if you are willing to wait for your cooldowns, or you can still spam them at the cost of wasting your energy.

* Each ability has its own seperate "cooldown", meaning it is best to use ALL your abilities as varied as possible. It also means you can make more powerful abilities (such as ultimates) have longer cooldowns and play around more to balance them better

* Even weaker abilities (although, i still think most abilities needs changing) would have more use as they would be free of cost every now and then! Their cooldowns can then also be a lot shorter than others, further increasing their values.

* The hud/UI needs to indicate the abilities' remaining cooldowns (Could be displayed similarly to how they show them in DotA for example)

 

On top of this system i would also overhaul a few other things:

* Energy orbs should either be a lot more rare, and/or give a lot less energy (like 10 energy each) or be scrapped altogether (I don't like scrapping them completely though, just toned down in frequency and/or power)

* All Warframes should have a slight innate energy regen too (like 0,5 energy/sec). This could also vary (very slightly) between each Warframe.

* Auras should not stack anymore (otherwise Energy Siphon would be even MORE overpowered), although most of them should then also be buffed i guess (and they should also have no polarities, so it is easier to switch between them).

* Streamline then needs a revamp: Reducing energy costs and/or ability "cooldowns", whatever is the most balanced.

* We have ammo boxes and healing "potions". Why don't we have energy "potions" too? (Thus, potentially less waiting for "cooldowns" for the impatient people!)

 

All points are important there, so don't skim it through, read it thoroughly please!

 

EDIT: This also makes "no energy" nightmare runs more doable (since you can still cast your abilities, although not nearly as much as normal)

 

I really like this idea. Some have said that combining the two systems is counter-intuitive so it might not be a good idea -- I'm not sure I agree, but I'll propose a different idea anyway.

 

We should gain energy from doing stuff.

Doing damage, healing allies, etc...should give us small amounts of energy.

That way instead of looking for blue orbs like now, waiting around for energy to regen or abilities to go off cooldown..

it keeps us FIGHTING and moving forward.

 

It's kind of along these lines, actually:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/90792-energy-system-discussion/page-4#entry1021606

 

 

 

Ok, here is what i have in mind:

 

BASIC CONCEPT

 

A bar that increases after each use of any skill and dissipates by time, each skill will have X heat cost, after each use, the X cost adds to the gauge, when the MAX is reached, the system locks up for some seconds, during that time, the skills are blocked and can't be used, past that time, the Heat starts dissipating again.

 

BASIC NUMBERS (only orientative)

 

Basic Heat Gauge: 100

When the bar is Green(cool)until 60%: The heat dissipates at 2.0 points/s

When the bar is Orange(Hot)between 60% and 85%: The heat dissipates at 5.0 points/s

When the bar is Red(Overheating)between 85% and 100%: The heat dissipates at 8 points/s

Overheated(After reaching the maximum gauge's capacity): The Skills locks up for 10 seconds

(The difference between heat levels is caused by the temperature difference, more hot things cools faster)

 

Example of the gauge's bar (only orientative)

 

ISSUES AND COMPARISONS

 

Well, this new system should fix some inconsistencies of the current energy system, where we can haven't energy when is necessary, and with 400+ of energy with alot of energy balls on the ground when it's not necessary at all, forcing  the waste of energy only for pick up the  energy balls from the ground. Another issue is the people leaving the Defense Spots to pick up energy balls trough the map(in most cases new players), and harming the game of the other players, this is also solved by the new system. Also, there are some new advantages about it, as in the current system, we can still spam some skills, but only for a short period of time, then should wait a little bit before can spamm again, unlike the current system, where we can spam, pick balls, spam again and repeat.

 

 

Anyway, there aren't any perfect system, always have issues, some big others little ones, and i hope this one can be managed to have the less number of them ^.^

 

 

No more stepping on blue balls that destroy your framerate because there's thousands of them at 120 minutes into survival. Abilities can still be spammed in a pinch, but you need to think about what abilities to use and when to use them.

[KARMA2605]

Any idea that moves this game away from spamming abilities and making the choice to use abilities into a more tactical one is a step in the right direction.  I sure hope that DE is looking at a couple of these ideas.  sgghostrider's idea above is a good example of how the system could be tweaked without needing CD's.  Kind of a "abuse your power usage at your own risk".  It still allows for those "oh crap" moments where you might "need" to spam powers to keep from dying, yet discourages constant use of spamming.  A system like that could do wonders for this game.

[Vigilance]

I really like this idea. Some have said that combining the two systems is counter-intuitive so it might not be a good idea -- I'm not sure I agree, but I'll propose a different idea anyway.

 

 

It's kind of along these lines, actually:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/90792-energy-system-discussion/page-4#entry1021606

 

 

 

No more stepping on blue balls that destroy your framerate because there's thousands of them at 120 minutes into survival. Abilities can still be spammed in a pinch, but you need to think about what abilities to use and when to use them.

I like this idea. It promotes some warframes being able to deal with situations with powers more than having to use their weapons. This does mean some abilities wil need to be adjusted for the new system. Some of the more powerful ultimates can instantly max out the heat bar, locking down the frame a bit. This gives more freedom towards making more powerful ultimates without making them the answer all the time, everytime the way it can be done now, looking at you nova!

 

[litlit]

As with anyone who isn't instantly allergic to the suggestion, the main thing is taking the RNG system out of the ability system. By doing this, two major things will be accomplished:

1. Abilities will be a consistent aspect of gameplay for each individual Warframe, providing a much better opportunity for the development of unique playstyles.

2. The main reason why so many Warframe abilities are considered overpowered/underpowered is because it is possible in some circumstances to spam a given ability repeatedly for maximum effect. Ultimates are particularly guilty of this.  By implementing a system that limits consecutive ability usage but promotes consistent usage, skills can be rebalanced to a more level playing field.

If anyone can link the thread with the heat gauge suggestion, that one was absolutely brilliant.

 

There have been quite a few variations of the "heat gauge" thing. Was the one I linked in my last post the one you were thinking of?

 

There's another variation that I like, but I don't remember the thread or the user who came up with it. The idea is that the heat gauge must be maxed out before a frame's ultimate can be used. Heat can be built up by using abilities 1-3, which have no cost. As an addition to this idea, I recall someone suggesting that other actions could be taken to build up the heat gauge, with the actions that build up heat being different for each frame. So, Loki might gain heat by using melee attacks while Rhino might gain heat from drawing aggro and taking damage.

[geninrising]

Oh, no I meant ACTUAL reactors. I was referring to how they generate energy and to implement it into the game as such.

Well you DID say OROKIN REACTOR

[geninrising]

Either way if they did change the system to a different type of energy generation they would have to massively buff or redesign most powers as they would need to all be equally as viable as the next or they could just make all abilities armor ignore. I believe that all warframe powers should not be affected by armor as is.

[Novashank]

I brought this up months ago, but the reaction is always the same. You'll get a lot of opposition from people who are afraid of change (they'll likely cite things they think would be worse but really are non-issues), or people who think you just mean to do things at face value like only removing the balls and calling it done.

I even talked to Steve at E3 in June about how collecting blue balls for energy was odd, especially breaking canisters just to do what we're experts at. You could be 1 energy off, but nope, you won't be able to shake the ground at all using Banshee's Quake. It's like she can't do it at all and you have to hunt down energy. Steve even said they were looking to fix that, but the best I've seen was they slightly buffed energy siphon when they made it into an Aura. Didn't really do much, really.

Of course, sometimes in this game, we have a plethora of blue balls. Use Nova's M Prime, blow everything up, and 8 blue balls fly out into Nova's mouth and she can do it again immediately, so of course you will get people who think any change will make Nova more OP, and others who say energy is sometimes not available, so it's all a huge mess.

I suggest the frames have slow regen, with energy earned by playing better, or more skillfully. Slide kills, stealth kills, and like pulling off a super move in Street Fighter, you don't gain more energy when you pull off a super. In a system without balls anyway, this would work well. Blowing up a room with M Prime would not completely refill Nova for her to do it again. You could even have weapons that add energy per hit. There are a lot of ways to give the player energy without it being too slow, too easy, or feed the "press 4 to win" loop.

But most people, as much as they might think otherwise, are very close minded and will tell you the game is fine how it is, or funnily enough, that it's "bad enough as it is" so they don't want change. Doesn't even make sense.

Btw, DE already addressed cooldowns. Warframes used to have cooldowns way early in development. They don't anymore because cooldowns are stupid. They artificially keep you from pulling off moves that should be based on your skill, not just time. They're lazy designer tricks. And you can't just let the smaller abilities have short cooldowns. That seems to be a popular argument. If that's the case then why put a cooldown at all? So there's no room for cooldowns. DE said they're redoing stamina and making it more important in the future. Maybe energy will tie into it as well.

 

 

That reply was just... beautiful!

[Novashank]

How about this, which i posted in another thread discussing energy (and was VERY well received):

 

My take on it (inspired by some other guy, think he was called Securitywyrm)

 

TL;DR: Abilities have individual "cooldowns", when cooldown is done the ability costs 0 energy, but abilities are still spammable, although costs energy (relative to the remaining cooldown) if you don't wait for their "cooldowns" to finish. Energy then becomes more of an emergency-resource.

 

Longer explanation:

* Each ability has a pseudo-cooldown. When it is off cooldown, your next ability costs ZERO energy! When it is running its cooldown though, you can still cast it, but the ability now costs energy relative to the remaining cooldown!

* For example, let's say Ember's Fireball has a 10 second "cooldown" and still costs maximum 25 energy. If you cast it when the cooldown is done, it costs 0 energy. If you then wait 2 seconds and cast it again, it only costs 20 energy (8 / 10 * 25 = 20), and the cooldown now restarts again.

This way, you can use your abilities carefully and free of cost if you are willing to wait for your cooldowns, or you can still spam them at the cost of wasting your energy.

* Each ability has its own seperate "cooldown", meaning it is best to use ALL your abilities as varied as possible. It also means you can make more powerful abilities (such as ultimates) have longer cooldowns and play around more to balance them better

* Even weaker abilities (although, i still think most abilities needs changing) would have more use as they would be free of cost every now and then! Their cooldowns can then also be a lot shorter than others, further increasing their values.

* The hud/UI needs to indicate the abilities' remaining cooldowns (Could be displayed similarly to how they show them in DotA for example)

 

On top of this system i would also overhaul a few other things:

* Energy orbs should either be a lot more rare, and/or give a lot less energy (like 10 energy each) or be scrapped altogether (I don't like scrapping them completely though, just toned down in frequency and/or power)

* All Warframes should have a slight innate energy regen too (like 0,5 energy/sec). This could also vary (very slightly) between each Warframe.

* Auras should not stack anymore (otherwise Energy Siphon would be even MORE overpowered), although most of them should then also be buffed i guess (and they should also have no polarities, so it is easier to switch between them).

* Streamline then needs a revamp: Reducing energy costs and/or ability "cooldowns", whatever is the most balanced.

* We have ammo boxes and healing "potions". Why don't we have energy "potions" too? (Thus, potentially less waiting for "cooldowns" for the impatient people!)

 

All points are important there, so don't skim it through, read it thoroughly please!

 

EDIT: This also makes "no energy" nightmare runs more doable (since you can still cast your abilities, although not nearly as much as normal)

 

Wow, where was this thread? That's not only original, that's FREAKING GENIUS! If you ask me though, the energy orbs should be scrapped for sure.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Novashank