Eidolon Hydrolyst event affected by elitism

[Praslea]

Hi everyone,

I've been playing this game for a very long time and there is an issue that's been bothering me for a while.
I want to give you my feedback on the Hydrolyst event and how elitism is ruining it.

While I have respect for players who are looking for a challenge or want to compete for status, elitism becomes a real problem when casual players are being added on ignore lists, bullied and "removed from group"(the entire group leaves) just because they don't fit the high standards of the elitists players.

As an example, a text line such as:

"H 5x3 tridolon 332 250 caps need x frame full VS"

which roughly translates into: "I need help with the Hydrolyst bounty, I want players who are able, not just willing, to do it 5 times in a single night cycle, the best voted amp configuration 3-3-2 is mandatory if you want to join and you need to have previously killed Hydrolyst 250 times before this. Also you better have Void Strike capped from Madurai focus tree."

not only it can block a casual player from this game content but also take away the will to participate in such events. Believe it or not, I got placed on ignore list just by asking what 5x3 means(true story).

This issue affects elitists as well. Competitive players who play the game on a different level, will not find people to entertain their unbalanced expectations and as a result, they chose to play solo, trying to find ways to overcome game content by themselves. There are players who kill Eidolons solo and it's sad when this content was designed for group play.  

This needs to be addressed and I believe the developers have the best chance of controlling this player behavior. After all, elitism is just a reaction of the players trying to adapt to the game design.

As a solution to the Hydrolyst situation the following can be done:

Limit the number of Hydrolyst kills to 1 per night so that requirements to join a group aren't so demanding, since some players want to do this 5 times in a single night cycle(who does this???).

"Rework" Chroma damage mainly because an encounter should not be designed around a single frame(even if unintentional) ...and also because players should actually put some effort into killing the Hydrolyst and this frame just 1shots the eidolon limbs making the "damage" part of the encounter feel like the eidolon has only shields.

Hide show profile-stats-eidolon kills so that players won't use it as a requirement to form a group, distancing themselves some more from players who actually want to participate. Imagine we separate players into groups like <10, 50, 100, 150, 200 and people in the first 3 brackets have a really hard time playing the Hydrolyst encounter.

Joining the bounty without a group(random players) gives you double the rewards and a challenge for those seeking one. Now this alone would solve the elitism problem in my opinion.

Redesigning the lure system so that the lures are immune to damage and each player can have a maximum of one lure following. If the player dies(the type of death where you can only self revive) than the lure is destroyed. This way Trinity with Bless build is a choice and doesn't feel forced.

Feel free to share your thoughts on this.

Have a good day.

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by Praslea

[GnarlsDarkley]

3 minutes ago, Praslea said:

and how elitism is ruining it.

I post "H/LF 3x3 or 3x4" and have a group after 5 minutes at most.

Let those 5x3 or 6x3 do what they want. They want maximum profit why do you care? They state what they are looking for. Better than "H 4x3" without info and being ignored

[Praslea]

1 minute ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

I post "H/LF 3x3 or 3x4" and have a group after 5 minutes at most.

Let those 5x3 or 6x3 do what they want. They want maximum profit why do you care? They state what they are looking for. Better than "H 4x3" without info and being ignored

Hi GnarlsDarkley,

Thanks for the reply.

I didn't make this feedback post just for my own personal benefit.

While running the Hydrolyst event i felt uncomfortable trying to qualify for the demands some people have for creating these groups.

I made this post putting myself into the shoes of a newcomer, although I've been playing Warframe since it was in Beta.

[SneakyErvin]

I wouldnt call it elitism aslong as they keep it to recruitment chat regarding their specifics. If they were to pester public groups with their expectations and demands I could see the elitism part. When going through recruit I simply see it as looking for likeminded people that wanna achieve the same goal the best way possible.

I do however agree that Eidolons do bring this thing out in people. They are poorly designed encounters for several reasons. I mean Eidolon fights compared to Orb heists are night and day. The Orb is actually decently fun fight, the Lons are just a clusterflark of overly flashy effects at much too close of a range. They also arent exactly fun, they havent been since the first time I tried them. I get it they want us to use the operator etc. but atleast it could be done in a fun way. 

The Orb mechanics are simply better, plus they dont bring out the elitist thinking because there is no night cycle and other poor design implementations. The shield mechanics of the Orb are well made, so are the shield pylon phases. It just makes it feel like an engaging raid boss fight instead of a giant rave show health sponge. Plus the way the camera works in WF, having to constantly look up at a giant Ent-like thingy removes all possibilities to keep track of the ground, where all the hurty S#&amp;&#036; gets spammed.

Edited January 27, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[GnarlsDarkley]

15 minutes ago, Praslea said:

i felt uncomfortable trying to qualify for the demands

Just don't. It's unnecessary pressure you put on yourself.

There are people who want to be as efficient as possible and it's their own right to do so. Like I said, they clearly state their requirements. As for bing ignored by just asking: well you have to see it through their eyes. They want to be fast. They usually get many responses and yours in this case is spam. Hard words...I know but it's true. I have been blocked for taking two minutes to answer while in a 2 hours solo survival. Just don't bother...really.

 

tbh I haven't read your whole OP so here goes:

29 minutes ago, Praslea said:

Limit the number of Hydrolyst kills to 1 per night

That's a bad solution which will result in a huge amount of hate threads. Just by locking them behind a 50 minute time wall is bad enough

29 minutes ago, Praslea said:

"Rework" Chroma damage mainly because an encounter should not be designed around a single frame

This idea is even worse. He is the best damage buff frame right now but you still can do 4x3 with a Rhino, Titania, Octavia or Ivara as Dps and no Chroma in the squad

29 minutes ago, Praslea said:

Hide show profile-stats-eidolon kills so that players won't use it as a requirement to form a group

Then you would be either ignored anyways because they find some other stats (hours played, MR, most used stuff etc) and if you were to run with them, they would instantly leave as soon as they see a single mistake and block you

29 minutes ago, Praslea said:

Joining the bounty without a group(random players) gives you double the rewards

Maybe, but then you start with premade 3 people and get harrassed if you are bad

29 minutes ago, Praslea said:

This way Trinity with Bless build is a choice and doesn't feel forced.

Damage to people isn't the problem. If they were to implement this the meta would just shift to Rhino as buffer or similar

 

15 minutes ago, Praslea said:

I made this post putting myself into the shoes of a newcomer

To get the basics of normal runs or even higher 4+ I have written a well reviewed WIP guide: http://wegaming.de/gnarls/#tridolon

I hope it will help you get into the Hunts as well and hopefully if you are successful don't end up as an elitist yourself 😉 

Edited January 27, 2019 by GnarlsDarkley

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

2 hours ago, Praslea said:

Limit the number of Hydrolyst kills to 1 per night so that requirements to join a group aren't so demanding, since some players want to do this 5 times in a single night cycle(who does this???).

It's a toxic community, certainly. I think a big part of it is to get the good arcanes you have to grind it, but time is so limited that it just ends up being frustrating. Most people get one session a day (evenings, after work or school) and that's only going to coincide with Cetus night every other day. Add that rare T3 arcanes need about 100-200 caps to max (around 1 in 20 chance of dropping Arcane Grace or Energise, and you need 10 of each).

So those players want 5 chances at that d20 dice roll, and take out their frustration on less Eidolon expirenced players who leave them with just 3 or 4 rolls.

1 kill per night won't help with that, it will make the plat price go through the roof though, and make it very hard for newer players to catch up (DE usually avoid doing that).

Here's my fix: 

 

Either that or provide other ways to get these arcanes. If they become orb drops nobody is going to bother with plains anymore. If they become craftable then maybe, but PoE crafted arcanes currently have the worst grind in the game (as most need wisps and gems and T3 fish guts).

The answer is to make Eidolon fights more accessible.

[17inchguns]

Everything you suggest is a terrible idea. We were all noobs once, but dont expect to get carried by a highly organised group (and costing them runs also). I looked up guides, created groups of similar lvl people and progressed untill the top. Put in some effort. Anyone is entilted to host a squad and put some requirements on it. If you put in effort you can solo tridolon easily.

If you dont know what a 5x3 is and they dont answer just google it. Also a big NO to removing hydrolyst caps. When organising a group it helps me evaluate their competence, everyone is a expert when looking for a squad but it then turns out they are using the mote amp and completeley fking up the entire hunt. Learnt my lesson, I always check each persons caps even if i put a min requirement also incase they lie (happens often) 

Limiting hunts to 1 hydro a night and nerfing chroma? Not going to bother carying on from here, such a stupid request. 

[Reifnir]

5 hours ago, Praslea said:

which roughly translates into: "I need help with the Hydrolyst bounty, I want players who are able, not just willing, to do it 5 times in a single night cycle, the best voted amp configuration 3-3-2 is mandatory if you want to join and you need to have previously killed Hydrolyst 250 times before this.

This a group request for a speedrun, looking for players who are equipped well enough and experienced enough to pull this off. Why are you trying to join them in the first place? Because that "roughly translates" into "I have read your requirements, I do not meet them, but I want to try and join nonetheless". Eidolon speed farming is NOT an activity that forgives subpar performance. ONE silly mistake (shoot a limb before a lure is charged, miss a Harrow's ult timing and half the team gets drained of mana/dies) could cost time, and time is an extremely valuable resource in speedruns, since the night time on Cetus is almost thrice shorter than day time. 

 

And your suggestions, to be completely honest, are terribad. 

You want to spoil the fun for people who actually find build min-maxing and split-second execution enjoyable. 

5 hours ago, Praslea said:

Competitive players who play the game on a different level, will not find people to entertain their unbalanced expectations

Not true. Long-time tridolon farmers end up either joining clans/alliances/discord channels with like-minded members or fill friend lists. Yes, they're a minority, but it has existed for well over a year now and shows no signs of going extinct. 

 

5 hours ago, Praslea said:

This needs to be addressed

Indeed. You need to stop whining and work your way from the ground up.

If you want to get good at farming and eventually, speedrunning Eidolons you (SURPRISE!) start it by farming as many Eidolons as your current gear allows and obtain experience. It's simple as that. And no, DE does not need to turn Tridolons into pathetic, trivial "carry all" snoozefest Sorties currently are. 

5 hours ago, Praslea said:

Imagine we separate players into groups like <10, 50, 100, 150, 200 and people in the first 3 brackets have a really hard time playing the Hydrolyst encounter.

They will have a hard time joining just speedruns, that is, something they most likely do not qualify for anyway. They will not, and ARE NOT however, restricted in any way from PLAYING it. Tridolon Bounty is open for anyone (tbh, it shouldn't be until Adherent rank in Quills or so, because you should NOT go there without a gilded amp but oh well) and further not restricted from asking their friends/clan mates to assist. You're making it sound as if getting recruited into a 5x3 group is the ONLY way to ever participate in a Hydrolyst fight. 

[Me.KayOh]

14 hours ago, Praslea said:

Hi everyone,

I've been playing this game for a very long time and there is an issue that's been bothering me for a while.
I want to give you my feedback on the Hydrolyst event and how elitism is ruining it.

While I have respect for players who are looking for a challenge or want to compete for status, elitism becomes a real problem when casual players are being added on ignore lists, bullied and "removed from group"(the entire group leaves) just because they don't fit the high standards of the elitists players.

As an example, a text line such as:

"H 5x3 tridolon 332 250 caps need x frame full VS"

which roughly translates into: "I need help with the Hydrolyst bounty, I want players who are able, not just willing, to do it 5 times in a single night cycle, the best voted amp configuration 3-3-2 is mandatory if you want to join and you need to have previously killed Hydrolyst 250 times before this. Also you better have Void Strike capped from Madurai focus tree."

not only it can block a casual player from this game content but also take away the will to participate in such events. Believe it or not, I got placed on ignore list just by asking what 5x3 means(true story).

This issue affects elitists as well. Competitive players who play the game on a different level, will not find people to entertain their unbalanced expectations and as a result, they chose to play solo, trying to find ways to overcome game content by themselves. There are players who kill Eidolons solo and it's sad when this content was designed for group play.  

This needs to be addressed and I believe the developers have the best chance of controlling this player behavior. After all, elitism is just a reaction of the players trying to adapt to the game design.

As a solution to the Hydrolyst situation the following can be done:

Limit the number of Hydrolyst kills to 1 per night so that requirements to join a group aren't so demanding, since some players want to do this 5 times in a single night cycle(who does this???).

"Rework" Chroma damage mainly because an encounter should not be designed around a single frame(even if unintentional) ...and also because players should actually put some effort into killing the Hydrolyst and this frame just 1shots the eidolon limbs making the "damage" part of the encounter feel like the eidolon has only shields.

Hide show profile-stats-eidolon kills so that players won't use it as a requirement to form a group, distancing themselves some more from players who actually want to participate. Imagine we separate players into groups like <10, 50, 100, 150, 200 and people in the first 3 brackets have a really hard time playing the Hydrolyst encounter.

Joining the bounty without a group(random players) gives you double the rewards and a challenge for those seeking one. Now this alone would solve the elitism problem in my opinion.

Redesigning the lure system so that the lures are immune to damage and each player can have a maximum of one lure following. If the player dies(the type of death where you can only self revive) than the lure is destroyed. This way Trinity with Bless build is a choice and doesn't feel forced.

Feel free to share your thoughts on this.

Have a good day.

 

Let me put this into perspective for you.

This is a free-to-play game. 

You as a player dedicate time to the game and as such you are allowed several freedoms by the developers. You can choose how you play, who you play with, what goals you want to accomplish, etc etc.

There is nothing wrong with the following: "I need help with the Hydrolyst bounty, I want players who are able, not just willing, to do it 5 times in a single night cycle, the best voted amp configuration 3-3-2 is mandatory if you want to join and you need to have previously killed Hydrolyst 250 times before this. Also you better have Void Strike capped from Madurai focus tree."

This is an example of a player asking for something because he can choose who he wants to play with. Thinking that people should not being doing this, is encroaching on their freedom and the last time I checked, people don't report to you on how they spend their time in-game. So the way I see it, you are in no position to dictate to players who they should play with and what they should look for in a squad, for any event.

Secondly, choosing who you squad up with is the entire focus of the recruit channel in the game and the last time I checked, there're people who host "casual tridolon" squads, for, as you put it, "newcomers". In fact, every time night time is coming to the Plains of Eidolon and you look in recruit chat there is always a few number of persons hosting a "casual tridolon" hunt. And yes, many people hosting 5x3, 6x3 etc. I don't understand why you somehow feel irked by the fact that there's more ambitious players out there than you who utilise the vast tools of the game to accomplish things greater that what a "casual" player would accomplish.

Thirdly, it's the tools of the game. Eidolons were never ever designed around Chroma. The fact that Chroma is a staple of an eidolon hunting squad is mere happenstance and has more to do with the fact that players actually played the content and discovered for themselves the "meta" behind the fastest, most efficient means of eidolon hunting. And this is done throughout the entire game. Saying that Chroma needs a rework "because an encounter should not be designed around a single frame" is equal to saying that the Lanka should be reworked (back when the Lanka was the meta for Eidolon hunting) or it's equal to saying the new Vox Solaris amps "should be nerfed" because they make the eidolon hunting even more efficient (and easy).

Finally, limiting Hydrolyst kills to one per night would simply result in a lateral shift as players would simply resort to killing the Teralyst and Gantulyst repeatedly. There's literally no point to doing this and it seems redundant to create a high-level boss only to lock it behind a kill cap of one per night. This is virtually one hydrolyst kill per 150 minutes. That makes no sense. Not to mention, can you even imagine the outrage this would cause with those people who repeatedly cry about the grindwall in the game?

Trinity is a choice, as is Harrow, Volt and Chroma. Did you know that it's possible to kill the eidolons without a Chroma? It is. It's been done before. It's probably the least efficient method, but any frame in an eidolon hunting squad is a choice. There was a time when Oberon was in the meta instead of Trinity, and Rhino instead of Harrow. All true because I've played through all of that. The tools of the game have changed and so the meta changes with that. 

What if in the next months the wisp frame is released, or Hildren is released and she becomes an even better frame to have in an eidolon hunting squad than Volt or Harrow and people start asking for her to do eidolons with. Are you going to ask for her to be nerfed? Is it going to be elitism if I ask for a Hildren and I don't invite you to my squad because you don't have a Hildren and I want a Hildren in my squad?

You're absolutely free to play the game how you want to. If you are content with doing casual tridolon hunts, more power to you. I am 100% certain there are many people who feel the same as you do. That's the beauty of this game. You play it how you want. So in that same breath, don't come here and accuse people of elitism just because they enjoy the content of the game in a manner that is different to you. I'm not saying elitism does not exist in Warframe among the players, but this broad context of "players picking specific players to play together with in Eidolon Hunting" is not what you want to use as an example. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Me.Church