I Tried Everything (Ashgate)

[Hypernaut1]

So don't play him... Why cry? Clearly you prefer the playstyle of other frames. That's a personal issue

Edited January 30, 2019 by Hypernaut1

[Torrempesta]

Again: the whole argument "You don't play him right" is factually bullS#&$. His combo is clear as day and doesn't take a genius to understand it, the problem is still in the efficiency.
He deals a lot of damage? YES, but Mesa is faster.
He covers a decent area? It depends, and still Mesa, Ember, Saryn, Banshee and any WF with a pole/spear/whip weapon che do better.
The problem is not Ash per se, is Ash related to others, and since it's a Co.op game... I even stated at the beginning that he is very good in Solo (but still, there are WFs that are even better, like Nidus).

Don't think that I am S#&$ting on Ash for the sake of it, there are problems with Harrow and Nidus too! They both need the team to stop its action in order to perform. It's an issue.

 

3 hours ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

I help many new Tenno clear the star chart, I fight bosses constantly.

 

You can do it better with Valkyr or Mesa.

2 hours ago, Gnlstorm said:

What u lack is movement/reaction/flexible/map awareness... No matter how good your build are if u dun had those requirement in the end u are facing those issue.. 

I can outperform any Ash with Atlas or Baruuk, who are frames who requires a lot of awareness.

I really can't understand Ash fanboys... I am not saying that he is trash, I am saying that he is not efficient, not objectively fun and usable in TOO MANY scenario, that ANY WF can do what he does but better.

 

3 hours ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

All I've seen are opinions. Statistics usually requires numbers. But as I've said, Ash is a unique frame, he has strengths and weaknesses, no frame has to be the best at everything

And this is just another argument used and abused. How many Ash do you meet in game? And how do they perform compared to other frames?
Be honest about it.
Of course if you just go invisible and spam E, well, that's not different than playing Loki.

[Torrempesta]

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

So don't play him... Why cry? Clearly you prefer the playstyle of other frames. That's a personal issue

OHMYGOD...
Maybe because I would really like to play a frame that I managed to obtain through gameplay? I don't know! It's excruciating talking with some of you, really...!
I have a frame? I want to play it!

And about % of usage:

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

This is what happens when they rework frames. They get turned to trash for the most part 

[Gnlstorm]

2 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

Again: the whole argument "You don't play him right" is factually bullS#&$. His combo is clear as day and doesn't take a genius to understand it, the problem is still in the efficiency.
He deals a lot of damage? YES, but Mesa is faster.
He covers a decent area? It depends, and still Mesa, Ember, Saryn, Banshee and any WF with a pole/spear/whip weapon che do better.
The problem is not Ash per se, is Ash related to others, and since it's a Co.op game... I even stated at the beginning that he is very good in Solo (but still, there are WFs that are even better, like Nidus).

Don't think that I am S#&$ting on Ash for the sake of it, there are problems with Harrow and Nidus too! They both need the team to stop its action in order to perform. It's an issue.

 

You can do it better with Valkyr or Mesa.

I can outperform any Ash with Atlas or Baruuk, who are frames who requires a lot of awareness.

I really can't understand Ash fanboys... I am not saying that he is trash, I am saying that he is not efficient, not objectively fun and usable in TOO MANY scenario, that ANY WF can do what he does but better.

 

And this is just another argument used and abused. How many Ash do you meet in game? And how do they perform compared to other frames?
Be honest about it.
Of course if you just go invisible and spam E, well, that's not different than playing Loki.

TRUST me every warframe/weapon/gameplay can get better if u are good in movement/reaction/flexible/map awareness

[Torrempesta]

Just now, Gnlstorm said:

TRUST me every warframe/weapon/gameplay can get better if u are good in movement/reaction/flexible/map awareness

Trust me, you did not understand a single thing I wrote.

[Gnlstorm]

1 minute ago, (PS4)chubbslawson said:

This is what happens when they rework frames. They get turned to trash for the most part 

They is no bad warframe/weapon/mod only bad player

[Hypernaut1]

1 minute ago, Torrempesta said:

OHMYGOD...
Maybe because I would really like to play a frame that I managed to obtain through gameplay? I don't know! It's excruciating talking with some of you, really...!
I have a frame? I want to play it!

And about % of usage:

So play it... Why are you having a freakout? 

Spoiler: there's probably other frames you may not like either.... But there's a bunch of them to try! See, not the end of the world.

[Gnlstorm]

1 minute ago, Torrempesta said:

Trust me, you did not understand a single thing I wrote.

TBH i really dun understand what u said but i know what want to say is there is no bad warframe/weapon/mod only bad player

[Torrempesta]

4 minutes ago, Gnlstorm said:

They is no bad warframe/weapon/mod only bad player

Ah, there is no bad WF? There are no bad weapons?
Really, you are clueless. This argument was legit 4 years ago. Nowdays it stands.

Khora. Let's talk about Khora. What's good about her that any other frame can't do or can't do better?
Her whip is lame, Atlas is better.
Her regen is meh, Oberon is better and he grants armor.
Her cat is bugged as hell and the reason why DE don't do anything about it is because: NOBODY PLAYS HER! Why spending money on something nobody plays?

Holy damn! 4 years ago you could see Ashes at any corner, look at the stats above! Look at them!

Edited January 30, 2019 by Torrempesta
forgot a "he"

[Torrempesta]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

So play it... Why are you having a freakout?

Now you are trolling me right? Why do you think I am writing this thread?

[Gnlstorm]

7 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

Ah, there is no bad WF? There are no bad weapons?
Really, you are clueless. This argument was legit 4 years ago. Nowdays it stands.

Khora. Let's talk about Khora. What's good about her that any other frame can't do or can't do better?
Her whip is lame, Atlas is better.
Her regen is meh, Oberon is better and he grants armor.
Her cat is bugged as hell and the reason why DE don't do anything about it is because: NOBODY PLAYS HER! Why spending money on something nobody plays?

Holy damn! 4 years ago you could see Ashes at any corner, look at the stats above! Look at them!

 

[Gnlstorm]

 But honesty i still using everything available.. even now i still using heat sword or fang sword on sortie

[Hypernaut1]

8 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

Now you are trolling me right? Why do you think I am writing this thread?

Maybe some people actually like a frame that's a little more complex than p4tw. This is the frame for them.... And clearly not the frame for you. Just move on. 

Some may prefer a frame that's not overly flashy and exaggerated rendering everything trivial.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Hypernaut1

[Torrempesta]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

Maybe some people actually like a frame that's a little more complex than p4tw. This is frame for them.... And clearly not the frame for you. Just move on. 

But I really love his complexity! Damn it guys! Try to understand my point please! I can't make it clearer!
I love that you have to:
- Go invisible halving the BS cost.
- Use your shurikens in order to proc slashes and strip armor.
- Use BS with more damage thanks to its passive.
- Occasionally teleport on top of someone to kill it fast or to save your sorry bottom.

IT'S REALLY AMAZING AND FUN!
Too bad, and AGAIN I HAVE TO SAY THIS, here comes Mesa.
Here comes Excalibur.
Here comes Saryn.
Here comes a spinning Loki with Atterax or a spear with a riven mod +290% range.

Ash would be amazing as the protagonist of his own game. But he is not.

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

4 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

I swear to god, I tried everything.

Every build.

I tried a full Umbra build, which is kinda nice.
I tried a Fatal TP build, which can be useful.
I even tried the new Seeking Shuriken build with Redeemer Prime and Tox/Viral/Slash procs, which indeed is quite strong.

But it's all useless.
Ash still can't be played efficiently.

Why? Because (and I will never grow tired repeating it) we still have tons of WFs who can clear the room with half the effort, the time and the mechanics that Ash requires.

Ash rotation is, indeed, quite fun and interesting! He is maybe the only WF who can/must actually use ALL 4 abilities in order to function... But this same matter forces him in a Solo style type of gameplay.
You can't prepare your enemies with Seeking Shuriken in order to obliterate them with BS! Here comes a random Beyblade killing everything.
You can't perform a BS on that large number of enemies! Look, there it is Mesa clearing the room from 50m away!
Ah-ha! I got that enemy with FTP! Oh wait, he got killed by Banshee/Saryn from the other room...

Well, maybe he can tank? Of course not, he has no kit for that and his armor is too low!
Can he perform some cool CC? Of course not, he has nothing beside Smoke Screen and any random Rhino can do better. Hell, even Harrow can!

He doesn't even have the opportunity to perform decently because, even tho he is an Assassin Frame, he as very low Power Pool.

And please, PLEASE! Don't start with your "But I can play Ash perfectly! You are just a noob!" or "There are dozens of Ashes! DOZENS!".
No. Just don't.
You can indeed be an "Ash Main"; but how good do you perform in a mission?

"Ash is better at high lvl missions!", mmh, true, how many times did you do a 90minutes survival or a 90waves defense?
On average these missions last 35 minutes... at best.
And WFs like Ash (or Harrow) have literally no time to show how useful they are.

Look: I even am not an Ash fanboy... really, I always found him boring and redundant, but damn! In high lvl missions? A true blessing.
There was literally no reason for DE to penalize him this much... "We don't want a 1-Button-to-Win kind of Frame."
Fine, What about Banshee? Saryn? Mesa? Revenant? Atlas? Excalibur (okok, he has a decent kit, but how many players just press 4 and go with that?)? Ember (still wrecks at low level missions that you have to rush)?

Loki is better than Ash because you don't have to rely on strength and his invisibility lasts longer... and he is faster.
Ivara has an exalted weapon and gives you the freedom to use it however you want (still boring frame TBH, but I have used her more efficiently than Ash, enjoying the game more).

Really: Ash needs a buff, he needs his old ultimate back. Give it less range, an higher cost (but also give him more power FHS), but really: Ash needs to go back on his steps. Of course DE can't nerf Mesa, they have no room for that, or Saryn (who has even been fixed not so long ago... her ultimate did not work with her spores and still, she wrecked everything), so the only reasonable conclusion is to give Ash the ability to clear his little safe space, his little front lawn, with the rage of a thousand blinding suns.

 

Is this a joke? 

Fatal Teleport with covert leathality can kill level 999 just as quickly as a level 1 mook! 

Edited January 30, 2019 by (XB1)Skiller115

[shut]

34 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

Now you are trolling me right? Why do you think I am writing this thread?

It's the WF forums. Don't get too worked up; people here will go out of their way to misinterpret peoples' threads so they can assume OP's stupid and thus feel superior. It happens really often here, and there's no downvote button to discourage this behaviour.
It's a weird place.

 

OT:
I don't want to say that Ash is in a great place right now (he could definitely use some improvements), but I was never fond of the "Ash can do <task>, but <warframe> can do it as well!" argument. Obviously many frames are going to have overlapping roles; it's a frame's combination of roles that makes them unique and appealing.

Even if Ash is supposedly an offense-oriented frame, I think comparing his 4 to Mesa is a bit... silly. Mesa is an outlier among outliers. If every offense-oriented game could delete high-leveled enemies as easily as Mesa does, this would no longer be a shooting game, this would be a "press 4 and win with no effort on your part" game.
I mean, that's like comparing Loki's Decoy and Invisibility to Octavia's Mallet and Metronome. Yes, they're strictly inferior in almost every conceivable way (and Decoy could definitely use some buffs), but that doesn't mean Octavia is a standard around which things should be balanced-- maybe she's just overpowered.

 

I'd totally be down for some Bladestorm buffs (e.g. slightly increasing the clone count so it finishes the job faster, increasing bleed duration so that tougher enemies can be killed in one cast, and changing the "join-the-stabbing" button from 3 to 4 so that you're not locked out of Teleport). Similar kinds of buffs to his other three abilities, so that their scaling and utility are improved without turning them into "trivialize all of the game's content" buttons. Typing out these suggestions would probably be a thread on its own, though.

 

23 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

Here comes a spinning Loki with Atterax or a spear with a riven mod +290% range.

Worth noting that nothing's stopping Ash from doing the exact same thing. If anything, Ash's passive makes him better for this playstyle than Loki.

Edited January 30, 2019 by SortaRandom

[Hypernaut1]

6 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

But I really love his complexity! Damn it guys! Try to understand my point please! I can't make it clearer!
I love that you have to:
- Go invisible halving the BS cost.
- Use your shurikens in order to proc slashes and strip armor.
- Use BS with more damage thanks to its passive.
- Occasionally teleport on top of someone to kill it fast or to save your sorry bottom.

IT'S REALLY AMAZING AND FUN!
Too bad, and AGAIN I HAVE TO SAY THIS, here comes Mesa.
Here comes Excalibur.
Here comes Saryn.
Here comes a spinning Loki with Atterax or a spear with a riven mod +290% range.

Ash would be amazing as the protagonist of his own game. But he is not.

Well, you seem to like his playstyle. 

Maybe you do indeed just need to get better. I do fine with Ash and get my share of kills. If Mesa and Saryn are ruining your fun, they'll do that no matter who you use. The last things we need is an arms war between nuke frames. 

So yeah, sometimes a Saryn may out kill me, but I dont play EVERY mission with a Saryn. I do fine with Ash most of the time. And Saryn doesn't kill a high level Knox faster than Ash, so there's his niche. Ash's role is not a nuke

Edited January 31, 2019 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)Shodian]

21 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

IT'S REALLY AMAZING AND FUN!
Too bad, and AGAIN I HAVE TO SAY THIS, here comes Mesa.
Here comes Excalibur.
Here comes Saryn.
Here comes a spinning Loki with Atterax or a spear with a riven mod +290% range.

So I say again, who cares? Just play the frame you like. It doesn't matter if other frames are a bit better. That shouldn't stop you from playing what you like. 

[Torrempesta]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

Is this a joke? 

Fatal Teleport with covert leathality can kill level 999 just as quickly as a level 1 mook! 

I can do it with Inaros on a larger scale. And tanking better while doing it.

 

3 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Obviously many frames are going to have overlapping roles

"Overlapping" is fine, "absolutely bettere in any way" it's another.

 

4 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Worth noting that nothing's stopping Ash from doing the exact same thing. If anything, Ash's passive makes him better for this playstyle than Loki.

This is a good argument!

4 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Maybe you do indeed just need to get better. I do fine with Ash and get my share of kills. If Mesa and Saryn are ruining your fun, they'll do that no matter who you use.

Please, stop it with this argument... Warframe is not a skill intensive game... And against Saryn or mesa I can use ANY other frame to do better.
An example? Oberon. With Oberon I don't need to ACTIVELY use my abilities in order to deal damages. I activate them and the focus on shooting things.
But it makes sense for him! He is a support/tank frame.
Ash is not.
Ash doesn't have the excuse "Well, I am not a DPS oriented frame, so let me use my weapons exclusively."
If I have to play a frame solely through the weapons I have equipped, then it doesn't make any difference what frame I use!
But inevitably the frames with passive skills will perform better in any way.
I try to take this topic from another angle: you can't shoot/attack and use all Ash's abilities at the same time. With a lot of other frames you can... or you do all with one ability (Mesa, again).

[Torrempesta]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

So I say again, who cares? Just play the frame you like. It doesn't matter if other frames are a bit better. That shouldn't stop you from playing what you like. 

So I say it for the first time even tho I hate to say this: don't comment on this thread.
Do you see how silly it is now this whole argument?

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

28 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

But I really love his complexity! Damn it guys! Try to understand my point please! I can't make it clearer!
I love that you have to:
- Go invisible halving the BS cost.
- Use your shurikens in order to proc slashes and strip armor.
- Use BS with more damage thanks to its passive.
- Occasionally teleport on top of someone to kill it fast or to save your sorry bottom.

IT'S REALLY AMAZING AND FUN!
Too bad, and AGAIN I HAVE TO SAY THIS, here comes Mesa.
Here comes Excalibur.
Here comes Saryn.
Here comes a spinning Loki with Atterax or a spear with a riven mod +290% range.

Ash would be amazing as the protagonist of his own game. But he is not.

Just because some frames are brokenly overpowered it doesn't mean we should make all of them press 4 to map wipe! 

You forgot Gara she can nuke a whole map up till like level 80 mobs and her two can literally do millions of dps! So you want Ash to mark a whole room instantly and clones do half million damage slash procs so he can be like another frame damage wise?

Edited January 30, 2019 by (XB1)Skiller115

[Hypernaut1]

8 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

.I try to take this topic from another angle: you can't shoot/attack and use all Ash's abilities at the same time. With a lot of other frames you can... or you do all with one ability (Mesa, again).

Umm.... Yes you can? The one ability that stops you from attacking is used to fatally teleport to and kill an enemy.

If you play at decent levels, there are indeed enemies that Ash kills faster than Mesa Anand Saryn. That's who you target with Ash when playing with those frames. His job isn't nuking fodder. That's the role for Saryn and Mesa. 

If you aren't getting ANY kills, then you're not playing him right, just don't expect to be out killing designated nuke frames. In most missions, there should always be enemies that you can pick off on your own. Saryn is the only frame in the game that can really steal all kills IMO. Even with Mesa, I can find enemies before she gets to them. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

4 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

So I say it for the first time even tho I hate to say this: don't comment on this thread.
Do you see how silly it is now this whole argument?

Ironically I haven't seen you present any argument this whole thread.

[shut]

23 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

"Overlapping" is fine, "absolutely bettere in any way" it's another.

True. But it's not quite as important as you'd think, unless you only ever use that one ability. (Don't get me wrong, it's still important, and Ash needs improvement in this regard. Just not that important.)
Going back to my Loki-vs-Octavia example, I'd still pick Loki any day of the week. Yes, Octavia's Decoy+Invis are strictly better, but Loki's SwitchTele+Disarm (both of which synergize nicely with his Decoy+Invis) are options that Octavia simply doesn't have.

 

Again, I'm totally down for Bladestorm to get some scaling improvement. But I get the feeling that you're just comparing it to "Saryn and Mesa can kill more enemies more quickly!", without really considering what might be a balanced number of kills for a single button press.
Yes, Saryn and Mesa can kill things way more efficiently than Bladestorm. However, please understand: Saryn and Mesa are also stupidly overpowered. 

Like @Hypernaut1 said, the last thing this game needs is an arms race between the strongest damage-dealer abilities. There are a lot of things that are much less effective than Spore+Fingerguns despite requiring more effort (including Exalted Blade, which you also included in your "here comes _____!" list). And frankly, this isn't Ash's problem.

Edited January 30, 2019 by SortaRandom