[Hunter Munition] Idea for Balance

[Etzu]

Hey there.

Since few weeks I look for one optimal warframe squad composition for high level content based on weapon usage, and for that I looked for incredibly strong weapon builds. My analysis lead me to realize that the Slash is actually the best polyvalent bet of all when you understand how it works. There is two traditional way to base your fightstyle on Slash, Status on any weapon type and Crit-Based with Hunter munition on primary weapons.

In the case of the status, the weapon must have an interesting base status value and enought slash to proc it, and in some case you can just add one +120% slash mod to the weapon to compensate when the slash is not inate the highest but it will overall reduce the power of the slash ticks.

In the case of the crit-based, just equipe "on headshot +crit chance" with hunter munition and the mods for multishot, crit chance, crit dmg, and dmg, this will leave you one optional slot for whatever you want on the weapon, and that will turn almost any primary weapon into an overclassed murder tool. I got here an example of the result using a Cernos prime using mirage and smeeta kavat, with and without mirage buff and arcane rage.

So what's the point of all that ? Most people will tell you that Hunter Munition is OP, I agree and I disagree. The mod is meant to be use normally to lead pets to attack slashed target, not to provide to every primary weapon the capacity a wipe any sign of life on the system.

So here is the only idea I found to balance that very strong mod without breaking its behavior: Adding a cooldown delay to the effect of Hunter Munition, at max level something like 3sec cooldown between each time the crit got 30% chance to slash.

If any of you got other ideas on how to reduce the owerpowerness of the mod without killing the idea that devs had when they created it. (definitly designed for companions and khora as her lore is obtained in the same "event" as the modset)

Edited February 12, 2019 by Etzu

[Syasob]

Just leave it freaking be.

It's not like HM is the only way to make your weapon work. Most of the game content is fine without HM and even if you want to use it you usually have to grab a proper cat and build around this mod. Not to mention that toughest targets we have now tend to be immune to status at all.

[uxx0]

33 minutes ago, Etzu said:

So here is the only idea I found to balance that very strong mod without breaking its behavior: Adding a cooldown delay to the effect of Hunter Munition, at max level something like 3sec cooldown between each time the crit got 30% chance to slash.

Cooldown for Condition Overload when?

[Guest]

Hunter Munitions hardly needs the cool down. If anything, Maiming Strike should get it, not anything else.

[Xzorn]

Hunter's Munitions isn't OP, ever.

Slash procs do not scale better than Corrosive against Armor outside very specific Weapons using Continuous Misery and double dipping Primed Bane mods which is that Chroma bug DE never fixed. It's just the math behind the two mechanics. The more you have to hit a target the more work Corrosive status does and Inflicting Base damage even 240% Base damage is not superior to Base damage + part of that 240% base damage + 210% Elemental damage. Esp when considering armor double dipping.

HP scales exponentially. Just as Armor but the effects of a Corrosive status are also exponential. The result is you will end up fighting the enemy's HP over it's Armor every time. Bleed or Corrosive. Even notorious Bleed weapons like Tigris Prime scale better as Corrosive + Blast over Viral + Rad eventually. It simply comes down to how many times you hit the target. Different buffs can skew results in different ways. Rhino will slant towards Bleeds while Banshee will slant towards Corrosive. Mirage does both.

All Hunter's Munitions does is allow for weapons that would otherwise be completely useless against armor to be a little better by adding +72% Finisher damage and that's if the weapon has 100% Crit. Less otherwise. In sad cases Hunter's is the only option a weapon has to deal with armor but one might ask why are you using it then.

As a comparison, this is an old Video I made with Dread pre Hunter's Munitions.

• 19k Bleed Ticks with no damage buffs.

Oh, then there's weapon that are actually built to deal with armor like these...

Spoiler

 

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Xzorn

[uxx0]

14 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Hunter Munitions hardly needs the cool down. If anything, Maiming Strike should get it, not anything else.

Yikes.

Also @Etzu there are way faster ways to kill enemies. I don't get why you'd ever use Cernos Prime as well. Keep in mind that this is all with enemy AI disabled, further inflating the numbers.

 

The poster above also made a good point. Listen to him.

Edited February 12, 2019 by uxx0

[Etzu]

Il y a 3 heures, Syasob a dit :

Just leave it freaking be.

It's not like HM is the only way to make your weapon work. Most of the game content is fine without HM and even if you want to use it you usually have to grab a proper cat and build around this mod. Not to mention that toughest targets we have now tend to be immune to status at all.

I never said it's the only way, it's just abit outclassing other builds, except against status-immune unit you're right on that. Slash damages are not universaly usable, but Slash procs (bleed effect) deals "true damages" which just bypass absolutly everything.

Il y a 3 heures, Xzorn a dit :

Hunter's Munitions isn't OP, ever.

Slash procs do not scale better than Corrosive against Armor 

It's not op, it's just actually usable outside of the original purpose of the mod, which was to combine with the Hunter Command to make companion attack slashed mobs for a duration depending on the Command level.

And about the armor, I can do some 5k per tick slash with a base slash damage of 18 against lvl 155 corrupted bombards, the proc damages totaly ignore armors reduction.

Il y a 3 heures, uxx0 a dit :

Yikes.

I don't get why you'd ever use Cernos Prime as well. Keep in mind that this is all with enemy AI disabled, further inflating the numbers.

I've tested in real mission too, when you're constantly making yellow crit (even a base 10% weapon can reach constant yellow with argon scope) having 30% chance to get a free slash proc based on your damage is abit too much.

About the cenors, it's just a quick capture of the capacity of the Cernos I've made for my friends when I realized how HM worked on it, it's not "the weapon on which HM is op". I've tested that on a lot of weapons, snipers, auto-riffle, semi-rifle, shotguns, the only type that get "lesser" result are the beam type due to the behavior of multishot on them.

----

I'm realizing that another possiblity than the cooldown could be some "fixed" damage for the slash proc of the mod, that way it won't change the way to apply procs on targets but without offering one extremly "cheap" kill capacity.

[Arcira]

To be fair HM is quite overrated in my opinion. It just works against regular enemies. Also if you play as a team against Grineer or armored targets in general you would go for CP (which should be the default aura on pretty much every warframe anyway) because without armor there ehp is very low compared to the average weapon damage even in very high levels. Against Corpus gas is the better damage type and has some ridiculous interactions with damage multiplier and stuff if you really need a lot of damage for some reason.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Arcira

[Syasob]

14 minutes ago, Etzu said:

I never said it's the only way, it's just abit outclassing other builds, except against status-immune unit you're right on that. Slash damages are not universaly usable, but Slash procs (bleed effect) deals "true damages" which just bypass absolutly everything.

I'm well aware about slash proc mechanics. This mod outclass nothing, just makes pure crit weapons viable vs heavily armored/shielded targets.

17 minutes ago, Etzu said:

It's not op, it's just actually usable outside of the original purpose of the mod, which was to combine with the Hunter Command to make companion attack slashed mobs for a duration depending on the Command level.

Oh, look, you said it yourself: HM is not OP. Also who said you what was the mod's "original purpose"? If it was only to mark targets for your pet then I think it would add guaranteed slash procs for 1 HP. But it works orly with crits.

And being in Hunter set means nothing: Adrenaline has zero effect on your pet.

24 minutes ago, Etzu said:

even a base 10% weapon can reach constant yellow with argon scope

No, unless you rave a +615% cc Riven.

[Etzu]

il y a 10 minutes, Syasob a dit :

No, unless you rave a +615% cc Riven.

Actually it was not 10%, but 12% on my weapon but with the 150% multishot from Split Chamber and Vigilante Armament there is most of the time at least one crit from all the mutlishots without using a kavat and a riven.

With a Braton Prime, base 12% crit chance:

• Point Strike: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 ) ) = 0.3 (30% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Cat's Eye: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 ) + 0.6 ) = 0.9 (90% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Critical Delay: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 + 0.48 ) ) = 0.3576 (~ 36% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Critical Delay & Cat's Eye: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 + 0.48 ) + 0.6 ) = 0.9576 (~ 96% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Argon Scope: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 + 1.35 ) ) = 0.462 (~ 46% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Argon Scope & Cat's Eye: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 + 1.35 ) + 0.6 ) = 1.062 (~ 106% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Argon Scope & Critical Delay: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 + 1.35 + 0.48 ) ) = 0.5196 (~ 52% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Argon Scope & Critical Delay & Cat's Eye: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 + 1.35 ) + 0.6 ) = 1.1196  (~ 112% crit chance per shot)

I'm not saying argon scope is op, far from that, just saying that adding a cooldown or a fixed damage to the slash proc of Hunter Munition could give balance to that mod. You can litterally slash with 0% status chance weapon, and also with 0 slash damage based weapon but that's another story.

[Syasob]

22 minutes ago, Etzu said:

Actually it was not 10%, but 12% on my weapon but with the 150% multishot from Split Chamber and Vigilante Armament there is most of the time at least one crit from all the mutlishots without using a kavat and a riven.

With a Braton Prime, base 12% crit chance:

• Point Strike: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 ) ) = 0.3 (30% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Cat's Eye: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 ) + 0.6 ) = 0.9 (90% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Critical Delay: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 + 0.48 ) ) = 0.3576 (~ 36% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Critical Delay & Cat's Eye: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 + 0.48 ) + 0.6 ) = 0.9576 (~ 96% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Argon Scope: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 + 1.35 ) ) = 0.462 (~ 46% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Argon Scope & Cat's Eye: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 + 1.35 ) + 0.6 ) = 1.062 (~ 106% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Argon Scope & Critical Delay: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 + 1.35 + 0.48 ) ) = 0.5196 (~ 52% crit chance per shot)
• Point Strike & Argon Scope & Critical Delay & Cat's Eye: ( 0.12 x ( 1 + 1.5 + 1.35 ) + 0.6 ) = 1.1196  (~ 112% crit chance per shot)

I'm not saying argon scope is op, far from that, just saying that adding a cooldown or a fixed damage to the slash proc of Hunter Munition could give balance to that mod. You can litterally slash with 0% status chance weapon, and also with 0 slash damage based weapon but that's another story.

Don't usually like to quote myself, but it looks like a proper timing.

4 hours ago, Syasob said:

Most of the game content is fine without HM and even if you want to use it you usually have to grab a proper cat and build around this mod

 

[Etzu]

il y a 24 minutes, Syasob a dit :

you usually have to grab a proper cat and build around this mod

I see what you mean about building arrround the cat, but I've just tested without the cat and to me it's still way too much. Multishot doesn't increase directly the critical chances but it makes you crit much more often than without it, and then yep when you don't have multishot it's kinda not interesting. (using multishot is not building arround hunter munition, it's one of the basic way to increase the damage)

[Sharkgoblin]

on simulacrum anything looks good 

[Etzu]

There is something that none of you seem to understand. I love the mod Hunter Munition, I use it on nearly all my build.

Just be honnest guys, and admit that this mod is way too powerfull and has no equivalent for other damage type.

This only leads to a "meta" build like the "memeing-strike" spine-to-win meta that forced DE to work on Melee 3.0.

So for the sake of the game, if you're not capable of fair thinking on how the game can be improved to valorise DE's overall work just don't post useless messages and get out of this thread.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Etzu

[Xzorn]

Most set mods are not used for their set bonus.

You're not understanding how scaling relates to your testing in the simulacrum.

I fight lvl 400+ enemies all the time and I've used Hunter's on a weapon once. It's more productive to either produce higher flat damage against unarmored or strip armor. As I mentioned theres few cases where Bleeds can keep up on guns. Melee is another story thanks to Lasting Sting and Condition Overload.

A lvl 100 Bombard will take 32 Corrosive procs to fully strip it's armor. A lvl 200 will take 36 procs. Lvl 300 takes 38. Lvl 400 takes 40 procs and Lvl 1,000 takes 46 procs. Notice how the number of procs needed slows down as they scale? Their HP does not however. There's a 10 proc difference between lvl 100 and lvl 1,000 meanwhile a lvl 100 Bombard has 41,772 HP and a lvl 1,000 Bombard has 4,464,372 HP a difference of 4.4 million.

Armor functions as a delay before you can start hitting the enemy's health pool. The impact of that delay is directly related to the kill time it would require to burn through it's HP in the first place. If you're fighting lvl 400 Corpus and lvl 400 Grineer with appropriate weapons you won't really notice a difference in kill times because that delay to burn through armor now plays a minor role in your total kill time.

Bleeds are good. They're free damage but Hunter's is taking up a mod slot. That's a very different situation. As mentioned before on a weapon with 100% Crit Hunter's is producing 0.3 avg Slash triggers per shot. Every Slash trigger is 240% base Finisher damage over 6s. So for that weapon Hunter's might as well say +72% Finisher Damage over 6s and we have mods with 90% Elemental damage. Not hard to see a loss coming for Hunter's esp when slotting it often results in a loss of Corrosive proc weight.

All Hunter's does is let weapons that are garbage against armor function for a time but even that will fail eventually.

After all that, want to see the one time I used Hunter's?

Pre-Beam weapon buff Amprex. Volt's +1000 damage passive on a weapon with 7.5 base damage, 200% Crit Shield. Up to 200k Bleed Ticks. Nom Nom.

That's the kinda synergy needed to make Hunter's scale. The mod is fine. Over hyped if anything and probably can't even get these numbers now since DE reduced Amprex's crit ratios from 50% down to 32% though it's a much better overall weapon as it can strip armor now and doesn't plow through your ammo.

[Etzu]

Il y a 11 heures, Xzorn a dit :

I fight lvl 400+ enemies all the time and I've used Hunter's on a weapon once. It's more productive to either produce higher flat damage against unarmored or strip armor. As I mentioned theres few cases where Bleeds can keep up on guns. Melee is another story thanks to Lasting Sting and Condition Overload.

A lvl 100 Bombard will take 32 Corrosive procs to fully strip it's armor. A lvl 200 will take 36 procs. Lvl 300 takes 38. Lvl 400 takes 40 procs and Lvl 1,000 takes 46 procs. Notice how the number of procs needed slows down as they scale? Their HP does not however. There's a 10 proc difference between lvl 100 and lvl 1,000 meanwhile a lvl 100 Bombard has 41,772 HP and a lvl 1,000 Bombard has 4,464,372 HP a difference of 4.4 million.

Armor functions as a delay before you can start hitting the enemy's health pool. The impact of that delay is directly related to the kill time it would require to burn through it's HP in the first place. If you're fighting lvl 400 Corpus and lvl 400 Grineer with appropriate weapons you won't really notice a difference in kill times because that delay to burn through armor now plays a minor role in your total kill time.

I like your way to expose the problem, that's right I'm not able to test further than lvl 155. The bleed is indeed a "flat" damage that seems to have no bonus nor malus of any kind, it's only scalled on the base inate damage of the weapon, the damage mod, the critical tier, and the critical damage.

As you're used to fight against high lvl mob, can you try this build: Serration, Split Chamber, Vigilante Armament, Point Strike, Vital Sense, Hammer Shot, Hunter Munition, Argon Scope. (last slot you can use whatever you want, even a riven)

On one of those primary if you have: braton prime, boltor prime, tiberon prime, veldt, sybaris prime, cernos prime, dread. (you can also try on beam weapons but replace the two multishots one for other mods, the multishot on beams have strict fixed critical that will reduce the bleed capacity)

And comparing on your knowledge on the killtime against high lvl heavy target using the elemental combo and this build to see if my feeling on that bleed build is real or just efficient lower level mobs ?

 

[GrimAtrament]

pretty sure DE mentioned numerous times how much they hate cooldowns. 

[Etzu]

il y a 5 minutes, hazerddex a dit :

pretty sure DE mentioned numerous times how much they hate cooldowns. 

They have few cooldown there and there on many mods, Cat's Eye for example. But then putting a fixed damage amount on the bleed from HM avoid the cooldown and can solve the issue I'm pointing.

[Xzorn]

24 minutes ago, Etzu said:

I like your way to expose the problem, that's right I'm not able to test further than lvl 155. The bleed is indeed a "flat" damage that seems to have no bonus nor malus of any kind, it's only scalled on the base inate damage of the weapon, the damage mod, the critical tier, and the critical damage.

As you're used to fight against high lvl mob, can you try this build: Serration, Split Chamber, Vigilante Armament, Point Strike, Vital Sense, Hammer Shot, Hunter Munition, Argon Scope. (last slot you can use whatever you want, even a riven)

On one of those primary if you have: braton prime, boltor prime, tiberon prime, veldt, sybaris prime, cernos prime, dread. (you can also try on beam weapons but replace the two multishots one for other mods, the multishot on beams have strict fixed critical that will reduce the bleed capacity)

And comparing on your knowledge on the killtime against high lvl heavy target using the elemental combo and this build to see if my feeling on that bleed build is real or just efficient lower level mobs ?

 

The build used in that video is similar except I went further by taking advantage of Primed Bane double dipping. Most guns in general aren't going much past lvl 200 before they start to fall off. You need buffs, debuffs, all that stuff to push different methods further. We can make Hunter's a monster just as we can make Corrosive status a monster but alone they aren't much.

In that video I was using Volt's Transistor Shield augment to bring Amprex's damage from 7.5 to 1007.5 then doubling all the Crit multipliers with his shield's +200% Crit Dmg passive then DoTs double dip from Bane mods making them do an addition 1.55x damage in addition to the 1.55x Bane already adds. It was just all base damage and multipliers stacked onto each other. A lot of synergy pretty much.

I can tell you though that the aforementioned Bane double dip will make Slash procs look bigger than they should be. All DoTs in general actually. Gas triple dips. It's the same bug Chroma suffered from that DE never fixed. Rhino's Roar has it too. Go Bleed if you're using Rhino. No question about it. Mirage is also multiplicative but I'm not sure if she has the bug or not. It's hard to test because of her highly varying damage bonus. I don't think she does but I'll try and double check later.

I'm not saying you can't make Slash procs bestial. It's more that Hunter's doesn't stand out as OP to me. I have another video where I'm destroying lvl 380 enemies using Chroma with Staticor a pure elemental status weapon. It's all about that synergy.

 

Spoiler

Riven is +%Crit Dmg +%Multishot

[Naftal]

Hunter Munitions is overrated and doesn't need a nerf.

[Etzu]

Il y a 1 heure, Xzorn a dit :

I can tell you though that the aforementioned Bane double dip will make Slash procs look bigger than they should be. All DoTs in general actually. Gas triple dips. It's the same bug Chroma suffered from that DE never fixed. Rhino's Roar has it too. Go Bleed if you're using Rhino. No question about it. Mirage is also multiplicative but I'm not sure if she has the bug or not. It's hard to test because of her highly varying damage bonus. I don't think she does but I'll try and double check later.

I have no idea what bug you're referencing for Chroma as I'm still not used to Chroma. For Mirage, eclipse works like a Serration, relative to the weapon. Volt shield is absolute crit dmg bonus, "additive after" as some say. Rhino is supposed to be like Mirage, a relative effect. If I'm right, the banes should be additive (absolute) but I'm not used to them. I know that Mesa buff is also an Absolute after effect to increase damage and Harrow also absolute crit chance boost.

[Xzorn]

7 minutes ago, Etzu said:

I have no idea what bug you're referencing for Chroma as I'm still not used to Chroma. For Mirage, eclipse works like a Serration, relative to the weapon. Volt shield is absolute crit dmg bonus, "additive after" as some say. Rhino is supposed to be like Mirage, a relative effect. If I'm right, the banes should be additive (absolute) but I'm not used to them. I know that Mesa buff is also an Absolute after effect to increase damage and Harrow also absolute crit chance boost.

 

Just so there's no confusion when I mean Multiplicative I'm referring to (Total Damage * Effect) and Additive (Base Damage * Effect) like Serration + Heavy Cal.

Chroma used to be Multiplicative. DE tried to fix an overflow bug that would cause high enough Power Strength to have negative results. When they did that they created the Multiplicative double dip bug. This bug causes any damage source that's Multiplicative like Bane mods or Rhino's Roar to double dip into DoT effects. DE used this overwhelming damage increase on Chroma as a reason to change him to Additive damage bonus so he no longer suffers from this bug but it's still in the game.

For instance you have a simple 100 base damage weapon and add Serration + Primed Bane +55% damage to it. The weapon will do 100 * (1 + 1.65) * 1.55 = 410.75 damage. So a Bleed tick on 410.75 base damage would normally be 143.76 but since Bane is multiplicative it will be added again 143.75 * 1.55 = 222.83 per tick. Rhino's Roar does this as well a +150% damage Roar will produce +300% damage Bleed procs. Mirage also uses Multiplicative damage but I haven't tested her in a while for this bug.

Mesa uses Additive damage buffs. Volt's Shield Passive would be a Multiplicative buff. Valkyr's Warcry is an Additive buff, Ivara's Prowl is Multiplicative, ect. Just trying to make a clear distinction not trying to sound offensive in any way. I'm pretty sure you get what I'm talking about we're just calling it different things.