Multishot Rework

[000l000]

Il y a 3 heures, Datam4ss a dit :

Do you even follow what I write ?

Get some education first and perhaps we'll start debating. You sir aren't worth of my time.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, 000l000 said:

Get some education first and perhaps we'll start debating. You sir aren't worth of my time.

Comparing your grammar against mine, I can actually rest my case already, but I will humor you a last time. The fact you can only misinterpret my posts (you misinterpreted my first post and ignored the main point I was making, you cannot understand my second post which is already so easy to read and you cannot even reply to the third once confronted with empirical evidence) and try to write completely irrelevant rubbish to deflect attention and appear knowledgeable is in itself an embarrassing enough act, but apparently you are unable to use proper grammar as well.

The moment you have to resort to such a statement, you have proved that you are completely unable to form a valid argument against what I have said, three times actually. Nobody would call you an idiot if you kept quiet. But talk too much and the whole world knows. It's obvious enough you are a troll which probably rushed MR just to whip out that artificially inflated epeen in front of everyone.

Perhaps stop debating with me and get some education first. Oh wait, you are not worth a school's time.

[Xolgys]

multishot is totally fine...i dont see a reason to even discuss multishot when there are other, way more important things which could use some love. multishot works as intended, is logic in itself concerning the idea behind it (more projectiles) and ofc they can crit/procc individually. if someone told me "more projectiles" i would assume they can crit and procc on their own too so its absolutely understandable imo. beam weapons right now are kind of an exception where multishot is a differently scaling +dmg value in essence only but considering how strong they are thats fine. the beam situation aside multishot is absolutely fine as it is.

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

8 hours ago, Xydeth said:

multishot is totally fine...i dont see a reason to even discuss multishot when there are other, way more important things which could use some love. multishot works as intended, is logic in itself concerning the idea behind it (more projectiles) and ofc they can crit/procc individually. if someone told me "more projectiles" i would assume they can crit and procc on their own too so its absolutely understandable imo. beam weapons right now are kind of an exception where multishot is a differently scaling +dmg value in essence only but considering how strong they are thats fine. the beam situation aside multishot is absolutely fine as it is.

Multishot is a problem because it acts as a "second damage buff" You put on a Serration mod, and you get +165% base damage, with which all other mods will scale. Put on +90% multishot and you now have (90% of the time) +100% damage, plus double chances for crits and status procs. It begs the question of "why all the extra damage?". Warframe overall has an issue of being able to make weapons too powerful for their own good, putting a lot of stress on the enemy scaling system. This is why DE has such a hard time creating viable "endgame" as every time they introduce a new challenge, the players just grab a "meta" weapon and turbo boost it with damage mods.

[MJ12]

On 2019-02-20 at 12:01 AM, ShortCat said:

Why such over-complicated mechanics?

Just remove bonus damage on multishot and let it only create additional pellets. Done.

This would make multishot a nerf in a lot of situations, because you'd be dealing the same amount of damage but with an increased chance of part of that damage missing, especially since it seems that (particularly for projectile weapons) multishot projectiles are often deliberately offset from the main projectile. The only benefit would be increased status chance, at which point... why not just buff the +status chance mod into actual usefulness?

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

52 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

This would make multishot a nerf in a lot of situations, because you'd be dealing the same amount of damage but with an increased chance of part of that damage missing, especially since it seems that (particularly for projectile weapons) multishot projectiles are often deliberately offset from the main projectile. The only benefit would be increased status chance, at which point... why not just buff the +status chance mod into actual usefulness?

Because then you still have the problem of "1 round = 1 proc". Status weapons can do neat things that pure crit weapons can't, but at the cost of a lower total damage potential. To make things even more unfair, critical weapons can essentially "crit twice" if their chance is over 100%. Status weapons can't proc twice unless they have multishot, but that's a problem because the current multishot acts as more raw damage.

Basically multishot is too good, but at the same time vital to keeping status weapons comparable to crit weapons.

[ShortCat]

6 hours ago, MJ12 said:

This would make multishot a nerf in a lot of situations, because you'd be dealing the same amount of damage but with an increased chance of part of that damage missing, especially since it seems that (particularly for projectile weapons) multishot projectiles are often deliberately offset from the main projectile. The only benefit would be increased status chance, at which point... why not just buff the +status chance mod into actual usefulness?

That's kinda the point. Without this stupid damage boost It would become a high utility mod, especially usefull for status weapons as one trigger pull may still proc 2 status effects, and higher spread is advantageous for AoE weapons or launchers. It would also slightly benefit crit weapons, as each pellet may crit. Now you also could bump pellet count even higher, as the focus is on ulility not damage.
Buff the +status mod? Yes! Or let it add base status chance. Or make a mod with +status and one with + base status. All this would create 3 different ways and mod setups to utilizy status chance.

[Xolgys]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb (XB1)alchemPyro:

Multishot is a problem because it acts as a "second damage buff" You put on a Serration mod, and you get +165% base damage, with which all other mods will scale. Put on +90% multishot and you now have (90% of the time) +100% damage, plus double chances for crits and status procs. It begs the question of "why all the extra damage?". Warframe overall has an issue of being able to make weapons too powerful for their own good, putting a lot of stress on the enemy scaling system. This is why DE has such a hard time creating viable "endgame" as every time they introduce a new challenge, the players just grab a "meta" weapon and turbo boost it with damage mods.

nerfing things were already used to is probably the worst design choice u could make and suggest. adding more challenging content and "endgame" has been an issue for years and would solve the power issue although warframes trivialise content more than weapons for the most part. an undieing or aoe nuking frame can fare much better vs the enemy scaling than a weapon alone. no weapon will carry u against lv 500 enemies for example. u need the right frame and synergy and i dare to claim that the choice of warframe is a tad more important. multishot is not to blame for anything about the power level, neither are rivens nor any other singular mod. its the fact that all recently added content is just too "weak" and that the enemy/armor scaling is still as silly as it used to be. enemy scaling and difficulty need a more healthy curve and "mechanic" than what we have now although, admitedly, the enemy scaling was never done with endurance runs in mind for example but that already starts to be true at around lv 120 so theres that i guess.

choice in weapon is a players personal thing and i dont think its a valid point to make right here. there are enough "non-meta" weapons which outperform "meta" weapons with the right build/riven with some very unique weapons being exceptions. there will always be "better" and "worse" one way or another and that fact also has nothing to do with the stated suggestion/claim concerning multishot.

also, multishot doesnt double crit chance...it increases crit consistency because u roll the dice more often but on average the crit chance doesnt increase. its just less coin flippy since u have 3x the chance to crit per shot with an average example of a 2ndary. on average the crit chance wont change but u have less dmg spikes/lows from occasional crits/non crits which makes the detailed dps-curve more narrow and more reliable. status chance is kind of the same actually. the UI stat takes multishot into account because its chance per shot and not per projectile like crit chance but technically multishot also doesnt add status chance, just another instance that can procc and thats just as logic a conclusion as crits. if i get another projectile i expect it to also be able to crit/procc so logically it also makes sense.

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Xydeth

[MJ12]

7 hours ago, ShortCat said:

That's kinda the point. Without this stupid damage boost It would become a high utility mod, especially usefull for status weapons as one trigger pull may still proc 2 status effects, and higher spread is advantageous for AoE weapons or launchers. It would also slightly benefit crit weapons, as each pellet may crit. Now you also could bump pellet count even higher, as the focus is on ulility not damage.
Buff the +status mod? Yes! Or let it add base status chance. Or make a mod with +status and one with + base status. All this would create 3 different ways and mod setups to utilizy status chance.

Higher spread is not advantageous for AoE weapons in many cases because it still reduces the amount of damage you'll deal to a single target, and at higher levels you absolutely want to keep that up so you can secure single shot kills. It is not advantageous for crit weapons because all it does is make crits slightly more reliable (which matters less than you think, and the single target precision weapons that care about smoothing the reliability of crits generally have extremely high crit chance and therefore reliable crits in the first place, while the ones which don't have that much crit chance have a high enough rate of fire that crits are reliable anyways). And as to status weapons, the simplest way to fix those would be to make >100% status chance allow for multiple procs and increasing the status chance of slower-firing status weapons, rather than making multishot a must-have for slower-firing status weapons.

If you wanted to rework multishot to be something interesting and useful, I'd suggest reworking it so that enemies only take full base damage from one hit instance, adjusting weapons damage to reflect that, and having multishot put out way more inaccurate projectiles to have it change weapon behavior than simply multiplicatively enhance status weapons.

14 hours ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

Because then you still have the problem of "1 round = 1 proc". Status weapons can do neat things that pure crit weapons can't, but at the cost of a lower total damage potential. To make things even more unfair, critical weapons can essentially "crit twice" if their chance is over 100%. Status weapons can't proc twice unless they have multishot, but that's a problem because the current multishot acts as more raw damage.

Basically multishot is too good, but at the same time vital to keeping status weapons comparable to crit weapons.

Again, this could be fixed by simply making status mods better and enabling multiple procs per raytrace/projectile, which would also incidentally buff status-based beam weapons (which don't gain multiple beams when modded with multishot).

I'd prefer weapon damage mechanics be modified so that all weapons have a soft-cap of projectiles/raytraces/area of effects that can hit a single target at once, with all projectiles/raytraces/effect areas additional to that dealing greatly reduced (like, -95%) damage, making multishot add +0.5 projectiles/raytraces per rank for non-shotguns and +1 projectiles/raytraces per rank for shotguns, and increasing the deviation of multishot-generated additional projectiles drastically, turning multishot into a room-sweeper that basically allows you to hit multiple closely clustered enemies and very slightly increases your single target DPS at close range or against very large targets.

In this case it's possible that multishot might be overpowered for launchers (because you'd be able to cover a very wide area of full damage) but this makes multishot feel interesting, do something unique rather than just multiply damage, and provides visual spectacle.

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

6 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Higher spread is not advantageous for AoE weapons in many cases because it still reduces the amount of damage you'll deal to a single target, and at higher levels you absolutely want to keep that up so you can secure single shot kills. It is not advantageous for crit weapons because all it does is make crits slightly more reliable (which matters less than you think, and the single target precision weapons that care about smoothing the reliability of crits generally have extremely high crit chance and therefore reliable crits in the first place, while the ones which don't have that much crit chance have a high enough rate of fire that crits are reliable anyways). And as to status weapons, the simplest way to fix those would be to make >100% status chance allow for multiple procs and increasing the status chance of slower-firing status weapons, rather than making multishot a must-have for slower-firing status weapons.

If you wanted to rework multishot to be something interesting and useful, I'd suggest reworking it so that enemies only take full base damage from one hit instance, adjusting weapons damage to reflect that, and having multishot put out way more inaccurate projectiles to have it change weapon behavior than simply multiplicatively enhance status weapons.

Again, this could be fixed by simply making status mods better and enabling multiple procs per raytrace/projectile, which would also incidentally buff status-based beam weapons (which don't gain multiple beams when modded with multishot).

I'd prefer weapon damage mechanics be modified so that all weapons have a soft-cap of projectiles/raytraces/area of effects that can hit a single target at once, with all projectiles/raytraces/effect areas additional to that dealing greatly reduced (like, -95%) damage, making multishot add +0.5 projectiles/raytraces per rank for non-shotguns and +1 projectiles/raytraces per rank for shotguns, and increasing the deviation of multishot-generated additional projectiles drastically, turning multishot into a room-sweeper that basically allows you to hit multiple closely clustered enemies and very slightly increases your single target DPS at close range or against very large targets.

In this case it's possible that multishot might be overpowered for launchers (because you'd be able to cover a very wide area of full damage) but this makes multishot feel interesting, do something unique rather than just multiply damage, and provides visual spectacle.

You do know that multishot doesn't increase spread, right? The bonus projectiles will stay precisely next to, if not inside, the original round fired. Spread is only created when the weapon itself already has insanely poor accuracy, or you're using a mod like heavy caliber.

[MJ12]

54 minutes ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

You do know that multishot doesn't increase spread, right? The bonus projectiles will stay precisely next to, if not inside, the original round fired. Spread is only created when the weapon itself already has insanely poor accuracy, or you're using a mod like heavy caliber.

My experience is that a lot of weapons are inaccurate enough that the behavior is noticeable. But even assuming, arguendo, that your assertion is true, it changes nothing of my core point, which is that your proposal would just make multishot worthless except for status weapons, where multishot would be a mandatory mod.

Multishot is more interesting weapons behavior than just making your weapon do bigger damage numbers, at least, and frankly if I had to choose, I'd prefer to dump damage mods like Serration over multishot mods, because at least multishot mods as damage mods make damage modding interesting.

I agree that the wonkiness of damage scaling in Warframe is an issue but the idea of changing multishot into just a multiplicative status proc increaser is uninteresting. 

[ShortCat]

13 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Higher spread is not advantageous for AoE weapons in many cases because it still reduces the amount of damage you'll deal to a single target,

That is indeed a grave issue, however it has its origin in absolutely broken weapon balance, as launchers in Warframe can be outperformed by a SMG. We could also debate, whether an AoE weapon should deal high single target damage in the first place, as it could be designed to deal with trash mobs.

14 hours ago, MJ12 said:

It is not advantageous for crit weapons because all it does is make crits slightly more reliable (which matters less than you think, and the single target precision weapons that care about smoothing the reliability of crits generally have extremely high crit chance and therefore reliable crits in the first place, while the ones which don't have that much crit chance have a high enough rate of fire that crits are reliable anyways).

High base crit chance and high firerate weapons will still profit from it. Additionally there are hybrid weapons and on crit triggers like Hunters Munitions.

14 hours ago, MJ12 said:

And as to status weapons, the simplest way to fix those would be to make >100% status chance allow for multiple procs and increasing the status chance of slower-firing status weapons, rather than making multishot a must-have for slower-firing status weapons. 

Multishot is already a must have mod on all weapons. All I suggest is to remove damage boost from it, as we already do enough damage and I argue that multishot mechanic won't lose its relevance in the process.

 

14 hours ago, MJ12 said:

I'd suggest reworking it so that enemies only take full base damage from one hit instance, adjusting weapons damage to reflect that, and having multishot put out way more inaccurate projectiles to have it change weapon behavior than simply multiplicatively enhance status weapons.

This is genuinely interessting suggestion.

[Xolgys]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb MJ12:

[..]

multishot is good/strong but not strong enough to justify a nerf that would kill it. its still a PvE game. why do people even bother complaining about a stat thats totally fine and available to everyone ?? if it was a warframe/weapon that was waaaay underperforming or way too silly strong okay, i would agree, but a basic stat like multishot does not carry ur game later if u dont know how to mod. hunters munitions is much stronger on its own on the right weapon than multishot will ever be. multishot is only good with the right mods and thats synergy. 0 reason to blame multishot for totally different issues the game currently has and ruining a stat is also way out of any relation, because imo ur change suggestion does ruin the stat completely and many many rivens and players efforts in the process.

[Unholy_Ghost]

Multishoot doesn't deserve a nerf, it deserves to be removed from the game mechanic because its a free double damage buff on all weapons mod and double damage buffs make games boring and stale and ruins the game's original combat system.

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

5 hours ago, Unholy_Ghost said:

Multishoot doesn't deserve a nerf, it deserves to be removed from the game mechanic because its a free double damage buff on all weapons mod and double damage buffs make games boring and stale and ruins the game's original combat system.

I did think that at first, but in truth it gives something that status weapons really need: extra proc chances.

A critical weapon can be modified to dish out a lot more than a status weapon. Not only can you beef up its multiplier to an insane amount by combining the right mods, but you can also get them to essentially "crit twice" by getting the critical chance over 100%. Status weapons are much more restricted in the sense that their damage can't be significantly increased except by simply adding more elemental mods, nor can they proc more than once at a time. Furthermore their procs actually compete against each other based on how much of the damage total they take up, making it sometimes hard to get the desired statuses to proc. If multishot was modified to give more proc chances, rather than giving out more bullets, then status weapons would have a means to increase their output and compete with crit weapons.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Or Multishot could stay as it is and we could not listen to the minority who think a stat is broken when it works just fine and still takes up a mod slot...

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

17 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Or Multishot could stay as it is and we could not listen to the minority who think a stat is broken when it works just fine and still takes up a mod slot...

The whole damage system is long overdue for an overhaul. The mod values were fine when weapons as a whole had (what would now be considered) meh stats; but as Warframe kept updating with new content, the kinks of the system became more and more apparent. Players keep pushing the limits of their weapons and creating a new "meta", only to turn around and say the game lacks a challenge when they reach this meta. This puts a ton of pressure on DE to find new ways to add challenge, but all their attempts are often undermined simply by players reworking their builds to trivialize what challenge is given and then resume complaining. Its a viscous cycle.

Now what could directly help this problem is if some of the variables that help create these "meta"s were adjusted or simply cut out. Multishot is one of the many things that could be readily adjusted, as it has a unique value but also shines too much as a raw damage buff. If it gave more status procs without giving extra damage, then the overall damage bonus goes down, which in turn gives DE more breathing room to properly redesign the damage systems for a more balanced experience.

[Unholy_Ghost]

On 2019-02-24 at 7:22 AM, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Or Multishot could stay as it is and we could not listen to the minority who think a stat is broken when it works just fine and still takes up a mod slot...

If by working fine you mean breaking the game's difficulty in half then yes, it works fine.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Why stop with Multishot?

Why not remove all the Damage mods as well?

 

Every single one of my rifle builds has in the top left corner, Serration, Split Chamber

It never changes, how about just ditch them both and scale everything back?

[(PSN)CaitaZatomi]

On ‎2019‎-‎02‎-‎24 at 5:55 PM, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

The whole damage system is long overdue for an overhaul. The mod values were fine when weapons as a whole had (what would now be considered) meh stats; but as Warframe kept updating with new content, the kinks of the system became more and more apparent. Players keep pushing the limits of their weapons and creating a new "meta", only to turn around and say the game lacks a challenge when they reach this meta. This puts a ton of pressure on DE to find new ways to add challenge, but all their attempts are often undermined simply by players reworking their builds to trivialize what challenge is given and then resume complaining. Its a viscous cycle.

Now what could directly help this problem is if some of the variables that help create these "meta"s were adjusted or simply cut out. Multishot is one of the many things that could be readily adjusted, as it has a unique value but also shines too much as a raw damage buff. If it gave more status procs without giving extra damage, then the overall damage bonus goes down, which in turn gives DE more breathing room to properly redesign the damage systems for a more balanced experience.

I totally agree. I get that the feeling of doing absurd numbers of damage is enticing to people. It makes them feel powerful, and then they take those weapon builds and destroy enemies up to levels 200-1000 or whatever using the most powerful weapon set-ups and cheesiest, challenge-nullifying Warframe abilities, stopping time, freezing everything, stunning the room, etc, and then beg for more powerful content to justify the numbers they can put out from almost complete safety. Nobody wants to see their weapons/abilities/mods nerfed, but then they complain about armor, enemy scaling, bullet-sponge enemies, and the non-existence of build diversity. Lots of things could stand to be changed, and though multi-shot isn't the highest priority for me, it would be nice if the power level of the game was reduced and then maybe slowly amped back up to be more mathematically sound. Serration would be my first kill choice since its basically the same as saying "If you want your weapon's REAL base damage, plug this in". Or if it was going to stay, I would see it reduced so it didn't give your weapon over double its base damage as though that kind of power wasn't seen as completely mandatory on every build with the game in its current state. Next would be elemental mods, because they are also a source of absurd numbers, just giving you 90% more of whatever your base damage is but as fire or whatever. Those should be toned down, though I don't really know how I would want it calculated, since status chance places the priority of your proc chance on a percentile basis. I wasn't around when multi-shot was first introduced, so I don't know if it was ever functioning as originally intended, but I do agree that more free, no draw-backs damage sources just shoot the power level of weapons up.

I get that it would feel worse initially if whatever your strongest weapon was went from doing 100k damage a second to a dramatically lower number because you're used to seeing 5 digits worth of damage, but if the lower number meant the devs could reduce armor build up, health scaling, and adjust enemy damage numbers, which might inadvertently buff radiation and mind-control frames by making enemies able to meaningfully hurt one another, I'd be for it.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

If people wanted a balanced game they would play the division or destiny. There is no need to change what Warframe is because some people don't like feeling powerful, i have a solution though. Make some Real end game content that starts at level 100 and scaled properly unlike the two "Endgame" things we have currently in Arbitration's and ESO. If players want to feel powerful let them and stick to your low level content as it is.

Course I'm someone who has all these "Problematic" mods and other mechanics making me overpowered maxed. But I earned that right through grinding to achieve it so unless DE is willing to compensate players like me through the roof above I refuse to budge even an inch. course they would have to restructure the whole game to make these nerfs work anyway and it will never happen so just don't use them if you hate them and only play with people who do the same. you have the option to play with people willing to gimp themselves so just do that and let the real Tenno do the bigger stuff! XD