My Input Melee 3.0 Blocking

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

Allow us to manual block in melee mode in order to resolve issues like Valkyr's block combo and guardian derision 

The ability to use the switch weapon button instantly is good enough to allow us a way to get to guns from melee without shooting. Removing the manual block is not worth the sacrifice of losing blocking as many players have expressed 

Auto block has not been a large problem for me i'm neutral on the issue

 

Edited May 27, 2019 by (PS4)CodyXSavageX

[ismellpestilence]

This is how you activate block combos these days: aim with your gun, attack with Melee weapon

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

9 minutes ago, AirMaskNinja said:

This is how you activate block combos these days: aim with your gun, attack with Melee weapon

you still are vulnerable with valkyr's 4 on, you have to do melee first then hold the block/aim button to retain your invulnerability while doing the block combo

not very ideal but melee 3.0 is still in the works and my suggestion I feel is the best solution with the least amount of loss of game flow

Edited May 27, 2019 by (PS4)CodyXSavageX

[(PSN)Schobii564]

1 hour ago, AirMaskNinja said:

This is how you activate block combos these days: aim with your gun, attack with Melee weapon

Which is still a really dumb way as you actively switch away from your melee to perform a melee combo

[Phernok]

Please add an option to controls to manually block, or what I see even better an option that changes and instead of aiming with the weapon that we used previously, manually block as before. Mods such as Electromagnetic Shielding and Guardian Derision now depend totally on the autoblock and if we want to use it with the javlok we can not manually block it.

[Steel_Rook]

One of the main aspects of Melee 3.0 is the removal of the melee/gun distinction. Creating more conditional keybinds which depend on which weapon you have equipped is not the way to move forward. I get that using aim to trigger combos is not ideal, but I don't consider simply rolling back the changes to be ideal, either. I'd personally rather address the last few instances of mode dependence by letting auto-block work with a gun equipped than go back to having to worry about which mode I'm in.

[(PSN)Schobii564]

No, it would be even better if they got rid of block alltogether, if it works on guns aswell it will literally interrupt everything you're trying to do,

they also got rid of manual block gliding which was arguably the best form of gliding,

aim and block should simply be the same button and the action depends on what is equipped

[Steel_Rook]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Schobii564 said:

No, it would be even better if they got rid of block alltogether, if it works on guns aswell it will literally interrupt everything you're trying to do,

Blocking has no business interrupting anything. It does currently, but that's a solvable issue rather than a show-stopper. And I wouldn't be opposed to getting rid of blocking, but making it automatic in this way effectively does that.

 

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Schobii564 said:

aim and block should simply be the same button and the action depends on what is equipped

Again, the point of Melee 3.0 is that it doesn't matter what is equipped. Melee key always swings your melee weapon, Shoot and Aim keys always shoot and aim your gun. That the job is only half-way done is no reason to not finish it. They got rid of manual switching to your melee weapon deliberately and I don't see that being rolled back.

[(PSN)Schobii564]

7 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Blocking has no business interrupting anything. It does currently, but that's a solvable issue rather than a show-stopper. And I wouldn't be opposed to getting rid of blocking, but making it automatic in this way effectively does that.

 

Again, the point of Melee 3.0 is that it doesn't matter what is equipped. Melee key always swings your melee weapon, Shoot and Aim keys always shoot and aim your gun. That the job is only half-way done is no reason to not finish it. They got rid of manual switching to your melee weapon deliberately and I don't see that being rolled back.

Guns get 2 buttons dedicated to it while melee gets 1, despite the fact that manual switching to your guns is still a thing

 

They dont have to roll back manual switching to melee

Besides you still manually switch to melee by pressing melee dont you

There might be the need for a button that does different things depending on what is equipped and aim/block would be a prime candidate as it would also function as an universal glide button

 

As far as i know the point of melee 3.0 is the improvement of combat flow not a downgrade in functionality

Edited May 27, 2019 by (PS4)Schobii564

[Steel_Rook]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Schobii564 said:

Besides you still manually switch to melee by pressing melee dont you

The design goal is that you don't "switch" to anything when pressing the melee key. You have both your gun and your melee weapon equipped at all times, with different keybinds for each.

 

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Schobii564 said:

As far as i know the point of melee 3.0 is the improvement of combat flow not a downgrade in functionality

It's also a decrease in complexity. Channelling is going away, weapon switching is already mostly gone, manual blocking is already gone, combo timing is going away, etc. And yes, that does have a knock-on effect on mods, combos and existing ways to play the game, but there really aren't a lot of good ways to do major structural changes without leaving an impact. Melee 3.0 isn't just an attempt to tune up melee slightly. It's a whole new melee combat system.

[(PSN)Schobii564]

50 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

The design goal is that you don't "switch" to anything when pressing the melee key. You have both your gun and your melee weapon equipped at all times, with different keybinds for each.

 

It's also a decrease in complexity. Channelling is going away, weapon switching is already mostly gone, manual blocking is already gone, combo timing is going away, etc. And yes, that does have a knock-on effect on mods, combos and existing ways to play the game, but there really aren't a lot of good ways to do major structural changes without leaving an impact. Melee 3.0 isn't just an attempt to tune up melee slightly. It's a whole new melee combat system.

Channeling is not going completely away tho, it will simply turn into something else

Reducing complexity by reducing functionality is not the way to go, especially with automated blocking, otherwise we could start making everything automated and let the game play itself, then we really wouldnt have to care about what button has which function and if gun or melee is currently active

 

The currently active thing is important btw, as you only ever have either gun or melee active, you will always "switch" to either gun or melee, with the exception of dual wielding which is right inbetween and hasnt really been inplemented yet

But it has aim not blocking so its more on the gun side of things

 

Something automated should never be in active gameplay, maybe passive

Edited May 27, 2019 by (PS4)Schobii564

[Treebiter]

I've not used a sword and shield for a while, though I used to extensively with a Guardian Derision/Electromagnetic Shielding Nyx build.

I was excited to get the new Amalgam Magazine Warp which I thought would synergise excellently with those mods, but how are we supposed to use them if we can't control block?

I get that thee new melee model has made things faster and less clunky, but block shouldn't have been thrown out at the same time. I hop DE will figure out a way to give us back manual block in a way that fits alongside the new melee model.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Treebiter
Typo

[Steel_Rook]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Schobii564 said:

Reducing complexity by reducing functionality is not the way to go, especially with automated blocking, otherwise we could start making everything automated and let the game play itself, then we really wouldnt have to care about what button has which function and if gun or melee is currently active

That's not even remotely how automatic blocking works. Though the block is triggered in response to incoming fire, the player still needs to be in a state capable of blocking. Even if we clone auto-blocking with a gun out, the player would still need to not be aiming and not be attacking in order to block, and must face whatever they're trying to block. Automatic blocking is as automatic as automatic reload on a dry magazine - it's automatic, but not autonomous. It triggers automatically, but only in situations that the player manually sets up.

In other words, the slippery slope argument doesn't apply here. Automatic blocking isn't an example of the game playing itself, but rather an example of mechanic that the player controls indirectly.

None of this is novel in either technology or design. The old Bungie game Oni already has an auto-block mechanic without an active block button, and that's predominantly a melee fighting game. Combat mechanics allow you to block as long as you're facing your enemy and not currently attacking. Some attacks even need to be blocked low, by crouching while again not putting any other inputs. Autoblocking is not a new concept and it can work just fine as long as it's done well. Warframe's autoblock isn't done particularly well yet, obviously, as it's inconsistent to trigger and interrupts things it shouldn't be interrupting, but those are fixable problems which don't require a rollback.

 

31 minutes ago, (PS4)Schobii564 said:

The currently active thing is important btw, as you only ever have either gun or melee active, you will always "switch" to either gun or melee, with the exception of dual wielding which is right inbetween and hasnt really been inplemented yet

The switch is (or should be, by design) purely cosmetic, reflecting only what weapon your character visually holds. It doesn't need to (and I'd argue shouldn't) have any impact on what your controls do. If I click my Aim button, my gun should aim regardless of whether I'm holding it or I'm holding my sword. If you want a manual block mechanic, it must similarly allow me to press a button and begin blocking regardless of which weapon my Warframe happens to be holding at the time. That means an extra keybind.

None of this is novel in either technology or design. The old Relic game WH40K: Space Marine already does exactly this, with a melee button which always melees and a gun button which always shoots (and another melee pushback button which always does that). Weapon switching is instant and whether your character's holding onto a Bolter, a Thunder Hammer or a Chainsward + Bolt Pistol is irrelevant. Shoot always shoots, melee always melees, push always pushes. Even when playing a gun-only class who doesn't have access to a melee weapon at all, the melee key still does a kick and the push button still does a stomp. There's nothing experimental, innovative or strange about this system.

[(PSN)Schobii564]

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

That's not even remotely how automatic blocking works. Though the block is triggered in response to incoming fire, the player still needs to be in a state capable of blocking. Even if we clone auto-blocking with a gun out, the player would still need to not be aiming and not be attacking in order to block, and must face whatever they're trying to block. Automatic blocking is as automatic as automatic reload on a dry magazine - it's automatic, but not autonomous. It triggers automatically, but only in situations that the player manually sets up.

In other words, the slippery slope argument doesn't apply here. Automatic blocking isn't an example of the game playing itself, but rather an example of mechanic that the player controls indirectly.

None of this is novel in either technology or design. The old Bungie game Oni already has an auto-block mechanic without an active block button, and that's predominantly a melee fighting game. Combat mechanics allow you to block as long as you're facing your enemy and not currently attacking. Some attacks even need to be blocked low, by crouching while again not putting any other inputs. Autoblocking is not a new concept and it can work just fine as long as it's done well. Warframe's autoblock isn't done particularly well yet, obviously, as it's inconsistent to trigger and interrupts things it shouldn't be interrupting, but those are fixable problems which don't require a rollback.

 

The switch is (or should be, by design) purely cosmetic, reflecting only what weapon your character visually holds. It doesn't need to (and I'd argue shouldn't) have any impact on what your controls do. If I click my Aim button, my gun should aim regardless of whether I'm holding it or I'm holding my sword. If you want a manual block mechanic, it must similarly allow me to press a button and begin blocking regardless of which weapon my Warframe happens to be holding at the time. That means an extra keybind.

None of this is novel in either technology or design. The old Relic game WH40K: Space Marine already does exactly this, with a melee button which always melees and a gun button which always shoots (and another melee pushback button which always does that). Weapon switching is instant and whether your character's holding onto a Bolter, a Thunder Hammer or a Chainsward + Bolt Pistol is irrelevant. Shoot always shoots, melee always melees, push always pushes. Even when playing a gun-only class who doesn't have access to a melee weapon at all, the melee key still does a kick and the push button still does a stomp. There's nothing experimental, innovative or strange about this system.

Do you use melee frequently?

Have you read a single post about how auto block interrupts gunblade or any other melee weapon's charged attack?

[Lazarow]

I been trying to use the new javlok amalgam with ack and brunt but I have to run with a melee at all times to get the effect and switching may get me killed if not a tank frame 

[Gurpgork]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Schobii564 said:

Do you use melee frequently?

Have you read a single post about how auto block interrupts gunblade or any other melee weapon's charged attack?

Perhaps you missed when they said this:

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Blocking has no business interrupting anything. It does currently, but that's a solvable issue rather than a show-stopper. 

^^

Yes, blocking does interrupt things it shouldn't. But this is something that can be fixed, and it doesn't make autoblock conceptually bad. 

[(PSN)Schobii564]

7 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Perhaps you missed when they said this:

^^

Yes, blocking does interrupt things it shouldn't. But this is something that can be fixed, and it doesn't make autoblock conceptually bad. 

I am of the opinion that blocking should be nowhere near gunplay

Would you block with your gun?

Would you block with melee and instantaneously switch back to gun in a single animation? I do not know how they would handle that animation wise and i dont want to imagine it

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Schobii564 said:

No, it would be even better if they got rid of block alltogether, if it works on guns aswell it will literally interrupt everything you're trying to do,

they also got rid of manual block gliding which was arguably the best form of gliding,

aim and block should simply be the same button and the action depends on what is equipped

Yes aim and block should have a distinction

Auto blocking doesn’t interrupt you in gun mode so just switching to a gun and moving out the way is fine with me however, if it does work in gun mode in a future phase we should be able to peak shoot with our secondary if the target is far and for melee parry if he is closer this would be great for combat flow in the next phase if they go this route. Using the switch weapon button instead as a counter/parry for this mechanic would be nice to make autoblocking a meaningful feature and cool new way to introduce the counter and parry mechanics in melee 3.0

Aiming with a gun does not warrant the loss of blocking for me which is my main point for this issue quick fire and quick melee is a good enough form of fluidity between the forms of combat for my playstyle based on the current phase we’ve been given of melee 3.0. Having gun aiming override melee is not working out for me

Manual blocking itself could be a huge asset for mechanics which I want to look foreword to

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2019 by (PS4)CodyXSavageX

[Steel_Rook]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)Schobii564 said:

Would you block with melee and instantaneously switch back to gun in a single animation? I do not know how they would handle that animation wise and i dont want to imagine it

In a word, yes. The current melee system already allows seamless, non-animated switching between melee weapons and guns, using the "weapon teleportation" visual effect previously used when weapons were set to not show on your person. In my vision of this system, your character would instantly swap to their melee weapon when auto-blocking, then either instantly swap back when they stop blocking, or continue holding the melee weapon until you trigger either a Shoot or an Aim command. I've no opinion on which is better.

And to reiterate, blocking should NOT be able to interrupt anything whatsoever. If you're shooting, aiming, swinging, charging a melee strike or double-jumping, autoblock would simply be suppressed. It wouldn't happen. If you're auto-blocking continuous damage and you trigger any of the above actions, auto-blocking would instantly stop and be interrupted with your requested action. I might even propose a slight (0.1-0.5s) cooldown after ending a block-interrupting action before auto-block can occur, to prevent it from feeling jarring. Essentially, auto-block would only work when standing, moving on the ground, jumping or double-jumping and gliding, if you happen to be looking towards the source of damage.

I'm well aware of the issues autoblock is causing now, and have run into them myself. I'm not trying to pretend they don't exist, but rather that they can be fixed. The current melee system is a patchwork mess of old and new implementations. It has crippling technical issues well beyond auto-block, some of which can leave you unable to swap weapons or even entirely lock you out of your weapons altogether. It interacts REALLY badly with Archguns and water an quite often drops me into a "false state" holding an invisible unreloadable weapon, holding the wrong weapon or switching to the wrong Gear item. All of these, however, are technical issues which can and should be ironed out. We need to fix them, rather than designing game systems around them.

Autoblock IS pretty bad right now, because it's not a proper autoblock implementation. It's the stitched together leftovers from an automatically-triggering manual blocking system designed to work under very specific circumstances. That's the reason why you're forced into a hover when you block in the air - not because a designer made that decision, but because the old manual block system bound "block" and "glide" to the same action. Now, when your block triggers automatically in the air, it forces a glide because the two are linked when they shouldn't be. But again - these are fixable technical issues, not design shortcomings. If this game had a Test Server, this build of Melee 3.0 would have stayed there this entire time, because it's simply was not ready to go Live.

[(PSN)Schobii564]

14 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

In a word, yes. The current melee system already allows seamless, non-animated switching between melee weapons and guns, using the "weapon teleportation" visual effect previously used when weapons were set to not show on your person. In my vision of this system, your character would instantly swap to their melee weapon when auto-blocking, then either instantly swap back when they stop blocking, or continue holding the melee weapon until you trigger either a Shoot or an Aim command. I've no opinion on which is better.

And to reiterate, blocking should NOT be able to interrupt anything whatsoever. If you're shooting, aiming, swinging, charging a melee strike or double-jumping, autoblock would simply be suppressed. It wouldn't happen. If you're auto-blocking continuous damage and you trigger any of the above actions, auto-blocking would instantly stop and be interrupted with your requested action. I might even propose a slight (0.1-0.5s) cooldown after ending a block-interrupting action before auto-block can occur, to prevent it from feeling jarring. Essentially, auto-block would only work when standing, moving on the ground, jumping or double-jumping and gliding, if you happen to be looking towards the source of damage.

I'm well aware of the issues autoblock is causing now, and have run into them myself. I'm not trying to pretend they don't exist, but rather that they can be fixed. The current melee system is a patchwork mess of old and new implementations. It has crippling technical issues well beyond auto-block, some of which can leave you unable to swap weapons or even entirely lock you out of your weapons altogether. It interacts REALLY badly with Archguns and water an quite often drops me into a "false state" holding an invisible unreloadable weapon, holding the wrong weapon or switching to the wrong Gear item. All of these, however, are technical issues which can and should be ironed out. We need to fix them, rather than designing game systems around them.

Autoblock IS pretty bad right now, because it's not a proper autoblock implementation. It's the stitched together leftovers from an automatically-triggering manual blocking system designed to work under very specific circumstances. That's the reason why you're forced into a hover when you block in the air - not because a designer made that decision, but because the old manual block system bound "block" and "glide" to the same action. Now, when your block triggers automatically in the air, it forces a glide because the two are linked when they shouldn't be. But again - these are fixable technical issues, not design shortcomings. If this game had a Test Server, this build of Melee 3.0 would have stayed there this entire time, because it's simply was not ready to go Live.

Sorry but i dont like blocking on guns, especially with the animations, for me blocking should be for melee what aiming is for guns

 

And i would greatly prefer to do either of those things manually

Edited May 27, 2019 by (PS4)Schobii564

[Steel_Rook]

Just now, (PS4)Schobii564 said:

Sorry but i dont like blocking on guns, especially with the animations, for me blocking should be for melee what aiming is for guns. And i would greatly prefer to do either of those things manually.

Then we agree to disagree, I guess.

[(PSN)Schobii564]

Just now, Steel_Rook said:

Then we agree to disagree, I guess.

The idea of blocking on guns just doesnt sit right with me, the same way aiming on melee would be wrong

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Schobii564 said:

The idea of blocking on guns just doesnt sit right with me, the same way aiming on melee would be wrong

You wouldn't be blocking WITH your gun, though. Simply switching to your melee weapon to block, the same way you can insta-switch to it in order to swing it. In text, it sounds weird - that much I get. In practice, though, I strongly suspect it wouldn't to anywhere near the same extent. It's been my experience that seeing these things for yourself is typically a lot less weird than talking about it.

[(PSN)Schobii564]

53 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

You wouldn't be blocking WITH your gun, though. Simply switching to your melee weapon to block, the same way you can insta-switch to it in order to swing it. In text, it sounds weird - that much I get. In practice, though, I strongly suspect it wouldn't to anywhere near the same extent. It's been my experience that seeing these things for yourself is typically a lot less weird than talking about it.

The insta switching also bothers me as it made holster animation absolutely useless

[Ofeban]

Manual Block and Block Gliding were essential and fun tools for melee-parkour players. 

I could reactively block things like Arson Eximus fire.

I could melee fight airborne enemies using Blockglide to control and allocate myself in the air. Blockglide+LMB slide attacking ospreys or headshotting grounded opponents is/was very satisfying to me.