Out With Drop Tables! In With Token System.

[Brasten]

When everyone is a winner, there is no real winner. 

 

Ah the Syndrome argument. To bad this is PvE and not some kind of twisted luck of the draw based unbalanced PvP that requires players to skin tones of time and money into a randomly generated system.... *cough* Diablo 3 *cough*

 

Me having god-tier weapons and you having god-tier weapons really doesn't mean much if we both put in the time to get them. Luck is not viable long term method for determining who "wins" and who "loses". Even if (and especially if) this was a PvP game that would be unacceptable and make the game a non-starter. Imagine Call of Duty where weapon unlocks were generated 100% by random chance and only through random chance. Every time you 'earned' and unlock it was just another random roll. Actually you don't have to imagine this system was done in a PvE context in Mass Effect 3 MP and it was an abomination. I would call out Team Fortress 2 or the same thing but, oh look at that they have a Token and Crafting system to help put a back stop for bad luck (also helps that they have trading which widens the 'luck' pool).

[Genuinetheo]

Ah the Syndrome argument. To bad this is PvE and not some kind of twisted luck of the draw based unbalanced PvP that requires players to skin tones of time and money into a randomly generated system.... *cough* Diablo 3 *cough*

 

Me having god-tier weapons and you having god-tier weapons really doesn't mean much if we both put in the time to get them. Luck is not viable long term method for determining who "wins" and who "loses". Even if (and especially if) this was a PvP game that would be unacceptable and make the game a non-starter. Imagine Call of Duty where weapon unlocks were generated 100% by random chance and only through random chance. Every time you 'earned' and unlock it was just another random roll. Actually you don't have to imagine this system was done in a PvE context in Mass Effect 3 MP and it was an abomination. I would call out Team Fortress 2 or the same thing but, oh look at that they have a Token and Crafting system to help put a back stop for bad luck (also helps that they have trading which widens the 'luck' pool).

 

Just because you cannot see the value of it, does not make it meaningless. I am saying the depreciation value of Prime weapons will continue to go up the more we just give people free grabs. Just as anything else exclusively sold in life (or video games, too), if all of that is shared the appreciation of the item in question plummets into the soil--sometimes further. Oh, you got the new bad-&#! looking Mag Prime? Well so did everyone else, yesterday. 

[Zachles]

Given the all-around welcoming feedback of the idea of a Token System replacing the current RNG System, and that DE listens to their players, I think there's only a matter of time until they implement this.

[shinydunsparce]

Given the all-around welcoming feedback of the idea of a Token System replacing the current RNG System, and that DE listens to their players, I think there's only a matter of time until they implement this.

 

Except we've been asking for this as soon as the void key system was introduced since we knew it was only going to be terrible.

[Ced23Ric]

The issue here is not numbers, more the idea that a token system will omit the need for people to get lucky--rather they are always lucky. When everyone is a winner, there is no real winner. 

depreciation

 

This is a sense of entitlement that is nothing but toxic for any community. The gear of your neighbour does not affect your game. You might not even get to see him use it, ever. Claiming that there is depreciation solely because you now you are not the only one to have it is irrational, selfish and also shows a dangerous sentiment of enoying your neighbours suffering. I, personally, cannot condone any of that. If someone feels that is a morally defensible position, they would have a hard time.

 

Objectively, such sentiments may exist, but they can only exist in the transitional phase, where fairness becomes the norm and luck was the norm. After a new system has been established, the communal knowledge of difference would evaporate.

 

Given the all-around welcoming feedback of the idea of a Token System replacing the current RNG System, and that DE listens to their players, I think there's only a matter of time until they implement this.

 

We have been asking for gear stats in the UI since U5. Asking for Loki to cloak his Sentinel since U7, when they were introduced - didn't happen. Asking for a token system since U8 - didn't happen. Asking for fixes to the Stamina system and movement system since U6 - didn't happen. Asking for Survival since U7. Please don't give in to illusions that these changes will come, and if they do, that they come quickly. Some of our ideas are over 8 months old. The Grappling Hook is an idea from the 10th of January, for example.

[Genuinetheo]

 

 

This is a sense of entitlement that is nothing but toxic for any community. The gear of your neighbour does not affect your game. You might not even get to see him use it, ever. Claiming that there is depreciation solely because you now you are not the only one to have it is irrational, selfish and also shows a dangerous sentiment of enoying your neighbours suffering. I, personally, cannot condone any of that. If someone feels that is a morally defensible position, they would have a hard time.

 

Objectively, such sentiments may exist, but they can only exist in the transitional phase, where fairness becomes the norm and luck was the norm. After a new system has been established, the communal knowledge of difference would evaporate.

 

That was a good stab in the dark, but I have said before that I have no problem with people who think they deserve the world and then some. I don't have any malicious intent in mind myself, but when it comes to discussing matters like these--it's usually the person wanting more that is selfish.

[Ced23Ric]

That was a good stab in the dark, but I have said before that I have no problem with people who think they deserve the world and then some. I don't have any malicious intent in mind myself, but when it comes to discussing matters like these--it's usually the person wanting more that is selfish.

 

That's quite the elaborate "NO U!", good sir. I like the added ridicule of people who think that 1% drop rates are not fun, but cruel. You may not have malicious intentions, and I wouldn't ascribe those to you, but you certainly lack the compassion and comprehension of the larger scheme of things. You are denying the statistical outliers, the unlucky sods who ran countless missions and received jack all, their validity. It is not the world and then some. It just a fair chance for all, including you, including me, and Johnny Casual. You may say you have no problem with these people, but calling it "the world and then some" is a judgement you are making right there. Either an unfortunate wording or oblivion to your own bias, I'd wager.

 

As for stabs in the dark: There is not a single item in this game I don't have. But, as you said: Good try. It's a little perverse to proclaim people selfish who are asking for fairness for everyone, but such is the effect of personal predisposition on perception.

[Brasten]

depreciation value of Prime weapons will continue to go up

I do not have a degree in economics but that statement is market gibberish. There is no depreciation (the loss of value over time) due to an increasing supply of various Prime weapons and Warframes. There is no Trading, no player to player economy.

The loss of value of any item in this game is purely on DE, when they release 'better' weapons. For example the value (as a measure of relative usefulness to a player or team) of the Latron dropped the instant DE announced and added the Latron Prime. Every player who owned and used a normal Latron saw their perceived 'usefulness' drop. In the eyes of the same people who use Conclave Rating as a filter I am a less desirable teammate then someone with a Latron Prime.

I use the Latron as an example because I'm one of those long term players who Supercharged his Latron back per-U7 and Mods 2.0. Since then I've seen the value of my Latron "deprecate" without mod stacking, as more powerful weapons were added, and other DE based things. Due to the RNG I have yet to find a Latron Receiver to acquire a prime and 'increase' my relative value of usefulness by upgrading to the 'improved' model.

Another example of relative depreciation is the Orthos. DE released a superior version in the Orthos Prime. This made the relative value of the base Orthos less. Doesn't matter how many players own an Orthos Prime, the fact that it exists cause that loss of relative value.

If you have a Latron and Orthos Prime your 'value' doesn't change once I get mine. Nothing about me having a better gun lessens the value of your gun. The net value of our team when we play actually increases.

Last point:

• There is no market

• There is no supply and demand pressure

• If you are speculating based on hypothetical trading in the future, stop. That is nasty can of worms in a virtual environment where 'items' of Rare natures can be replicated and increased at 0 cost to the controllers of the world (i.e. DE).

Edited September 27, 2013 by Brasten

[h8seekr]

In general, good gaming design rewards the player just often enough to keep him interested but not so often as to shorten the life of the game. It should also provide immediate term, short term, and long term goals for the player. With Warframe we are being rewarded often but the rewards are largely hollow and there are no long term goals. I think it's possible to keep random drops in the game AND implement a locked Token Store System in which you can literally purchase any/every item in the game (mods included) as you progress through. Regular weapons and mods would be purchased with regular tokens, Void items with void tokens, Derelict items with Derelict tokens and Nightmare items with Nightmare tokens. Tokens would drop from mobs/lockers/destructables/bosses and you would then collect these to spend in the Token Stores. DE would then merely have to set a token price for each item and let the player decide how to progress. Unlocking the solar system unlocks additional Mastery Store Items but you still can't buy those items until you've achieved that requisite Mastery Level. RANK actually means something and items become necessarily tiered. Let's face it, the weapons are already tiered but now we're actually ranking them by tier and calling them out.

Mercury: Excalibur Unlocked, Mastery 1 Items Unlocked, Common Mods Unlocked

Venus: Mag Unlocked

Earth: Loki Unlocked, Mastery 2 Items Unlocked

Mars: Volt Unlocked

Jupiter: Ash Unlocked, Mastery 3 Items Unlocked, Uncommon Mods Unlocked

Saturn: Banshee Unlocked

Phobos: Rhino Unlocked, Mastery 4 Items Unlocked

Europa: Trinity Unlocked

Sedna: Frost Unlocked, Mastery 5 Items Unlocked, Rare Mods Unlocked

Uranus: Ember Unlocked, NIGHTMARE MODE Unlocked, Nighmare Mods Unlocked

Neptune: Vauban Unlocked, Mastery 6 Items Unlocked

Eris: Saryn Unlocked, VOID Unlocked, VOID Items Unlocked

Ceris: Nyx Unlocked, Mastery 7 Items Unlocked

Pluto: Nova Unlocked, DERELICT Unlocked, DERELICT Items Unlocked

Next Planet/Moon/Asteroid: Nekros Unlocked, Mastery 8 Items Unlocked

etc. etc. etc.

You can infinitely scale this (new content = never and end game), you keep the gamer interested, and you give them a reason to play the entire solar system and the motivation to want to try. In this type of system the reward for the player justifies the time put in, he is rewarded at appropriate intervals with new unlockables, which also gives him long term goals by defining the in-game rewards (something we can't do with RNG).

Just my 2 pence.

Edited September 27, 2013 by h8seekr

[VegetableBasket]

I was thinking about how you could break down prime parts to get tokens or, Oro (Spanish for gold, the Orokin are the goldkin, Golden people if you will, this was a lore thing very very subtly dropped in a stream), which you could use to craft the parts you're missing. So you could melt down your 600 boar barrels and make a dakra blade, if you have the blueprint for the sword I'm sure you can figure out how to make the blade, right? I don't see why a bunch of scavenging Tenno can't figure that out.

[R3leaZ]

What? No 50+ Void runs to get the Paris Prime? Your other numbers are a bit exaggerated, as though you crunched them in to exert magnitude of the issue. It is no slight for me to say that I have run well over 200+ Void runs to get Paris Prime BP myself, but I could be overexaggerating a tiny bit, ignore the stack of Paris Prime parts I had saved up for the day I finally got the BP (which was actually a few days ago, but I have been hunting for that for months).  The issue here is not numbers, more the idea that a token system will omit the need for people to get lucky--rather they are always lucky. When everyone is a winner, there is no real winner. 

 

I've been one of the victims of RNG though. The Reaper Prime is a weapon people eventually get right? If they just play a lot. Well I have played tons of voids since the void system got released and I NEVER EVER managed to get the Reaper Prime Blade. I am almost reaching 200 void runs now if I would put them all in total (Keep in mind that not all of them have this BP in their droprates though so Im just stating the amount of void runs I have done as a whole) and I am not exaggerating there. I have never been able to get the Reaper Prime blade, it was always other stuff. Hell I managed to get the main Frost Prime BP twice! But never the Reaper Prime Blade BP...

 

I ended up being lucky with RNG with a lot of stuff but with this particular BP, my luck completely ran out. (I managed to get Barrel Diffusion, Split Chamber and Hell's Chamber on the 3rd day after I had used the optional reset. So I was very lucky there)

Edited September 28, 2013 by R3leaZ

[SchmuseDecke]

What I'd like to see are different tokens for each Void type so u need for mag the survival tokens and for frost defens and so on and so on ;D and also If u do a tier 1 void u get lower reward und tier 3 Biger also maybe random bonus token drops are possible in defens and survival

[RebornsAlmark]

I hate to Nekros this thread, but I whole-hearty agree with a token system (which I believe was once discussed by DE in a prior livestream a few months back) for void, every mod and non-prime Warframes can be farmed somewhat reliably now. However, void drops are still 100% RNG, and the codex and datamining encryption does not give players any numbers of the drop rates or where to find prime items.

 

The problem of where to look for items is not really the problem as players usually identify where they drop within a week of releases, however the randomness of RNG makes it a complete pain to farm for specific prime items (especially when you burn a good one or two dozen keys and obtain nothing of want).

[Claaaaaaaaws]

This is a terrible idea, I like getting lucky it makes me feel like there is a god.

[Bloodywing]

+1 to this idea. I like having a set goal rather than relying on pure luck that I won't get dupes.

[xIridescent]

Loving this idea :)

[Bloodywing]

Why can't both RNG and Token system co-exist? They can keep the RNG the way it is and at the same time get a token for doing a great job in missions. You can farm for the parts that you need or you can use your hard earned tokens to get what you need.

[Lost_Cartographer]

This game could use a token system, but it should also keep the drops.  The tokens should be a method of eventually guaranteeing a player will get what they want, but drops are a gamble the player could choose to pursue.  Damage mods like serration are abso-freakin'-lutely necessary, especially now with 2.0.  Players without these will be hurting eventually.  My handguns are all largely crap because I lack the basic damage +% mod.  I'd argue a mod like this deserves to be handed to players by default, or ammunition stores are enlarged and drops provide tons more ammo to compensate.  Hell, where's the mod for increasing the ammo quantity in a drop?

[Bloodywing]

There is Rifle/Sniper/Shotgun/Pistol Ammo Scavenger.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Bloodywing

[MetalThrust]

               A system like this doesn't feel like it would go well along with the lore. But something similar to this would be great.

[Darkseal]

+100000

[Luminati07]

We need a token system more than ever now.

 

Update 11 diluted the Void like nothing before.

[FrostWolf]

We need a token system more than ever now.

 

Update 11 diluted the Void like nothing before.

 

I don't think its a dilution problem... it seems more like its broken.

[Luminati07]

I don't think its a dilution problem... it seems more like its broken.

Agreed. It's broken as hell.

 

If it wasn't, the update would have diluted it a lot.

 

Tonnes of new parts.

Ember prime - 4 new items

Sicarus - 4(?) new items

Glaive prime - 3 new items

 

Each update it gets worse and worse.

DE needs to sort it out fast.

[xIridescent]

Agreed. It's broken as hell.

 

If it wasn't, the update would have diluted it a lot.

 

Tonnes of new parts.

Ember prime - 4 new items

Sicarus - 4(?) new items

Glaive prime - 3 new items

 

Each update it gets worse and worse.

DE needs to sort it out fast.

I can't believe I've never thought of it like that before.. Just imagine what the void will be like in 6 months.... its too horrible to even imagine :(