Yet Another topic, but this time its about trace gain seems to be op good while soloing in a good way, etc.

[Avienas]

So i was gonna wait a few days before i throw up another feedback topic but then i decided to actually take the time to look around on trace farming and tried doing a proper long run survival solo fissure without giving 0 cares about that rolling bit. Apparently to nutshell: It seems like trace gain consistency is stronger in solo vs being in a group, but it could just be me being lucky.

Normally, whenever i do relics i seem to get only around 8 to 15ish or so traces(usually standard public ducat runs that never want to last past 2 rounds, 4 if i am lucky and usually not counting my reward getting picked parts), without a resource booster. Already in 5 rounds on a solo fissure right now with a resource booster and consistently it was in the 35s each time with one proc of 40, after the +25% applied it suddenly jacked up to 55~70, so it makes me wonder if these mini-boosters are taking the maximum variable of the randomness and adding 25% of that or something, basically shenigans.

Also might be due to me having some major misunderstandings but it seems relic tier & if its a radiant relic or not, DOES NOT seems affect the value of the trace gain. Overall it makes me kind of think group traces need to be buffed, because it kind of feels like they are being split between all the players instead of players getting a consistent amount whether solo or group, because honestly getting a measely +5 traces for each player who picks your relic does not feel that impactful. Plus maybe would be nice to figure out how the mini fissure wave bonuses are applying, are they stacking on top of regular boosters or are they applying AFTER the regular boosters so a +25% combines with a x2 to make 2.5x instead of just 2.25x.\

Anywho lets have a nice chatter on ways that D.E. could improve fissures to make it feel more consistent and less of a hassle to go thru all the loops it takes to go thru the farm of it. Since now it seems to me to either solo long-term for mass trace gain OR group with people for easier rarer relic parts and have the other element turn non-existent value, despite it still being somewhat present.

 

P.S. before you say Smeeta procs, i was checking and smeeta charm booster was not active on any of them.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Avienas

[Hello]

When I play solo, I get no where near your numbers of void traces. Although, I only do capture and exterminate fissures. If I get 20, then I'm lucky.

Edit:

Did 3 rounds of the Neo survival fissure at Mot. First round, 23 traces. Second, 44 traces (smeeta buff), third, 13 traces. 

 

Another run after starting over

Edited July 12, 2019 by --Brandt--

[Avienas]

48 minutes ago, --Brandt-- said:

When I play solo, I get no where near your numbers of void traces. Although, I only do capture and exterminate fissures. If I get 20, then I'm lucky..

Just a small update since i am doing these right now in solo mode, meso fissure survival on console. 2 times after round 6 i got 30 and 40 traces (again no smeeta proc, stupid 28% chance and then an extra rng-sus for it to land on my 120+36 tek enhanced duration resource booster bounty). 50th minute just got me another 80ish so thats the 6~30 base value REALLY wanting to play around on those 2 times. It would kind of be nice if it was more around 15~30, with maybe the trace bonus gain is based on per wave instead of just +25% every 3rd or 5th wave depending on how deep you go. Another small misconception i had on actual GOOD trace gain.

Final note: Went 60 mins(aka 12 rounds) till level 106 mobs were being a tad too annoying. Funny how i was just really spamming melee with a Condition overload setup ninkondi prime with my wukong prime for the majority of the time really got around 566 traces total on that meso fissure solo survival. So about the same as 13 rounds of excavation fissures i did a while back, Still felt ALOT less stressful, plus makes me kind of wish again, deeper runs had a much more meaningful impact instead of only getting a very small improvement every 3rd/9th/13th/etc. round.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Avienas

[Birdframe_Prime]

Just to stick my oar in from the way I believe this is being adjusted; Void Traces are gained per Reactant you pick up while the Fissure is active. What can happen on public runs is that the players can spread out, and Corruption can happen to enemies, but the Fissure that spawned them can close before you get to them or the Reactant. This would mean that you're not picking up the Reactant while the Fissure is open, and thus not gaining the Traces from it.

If you're solo, you're dealing with each Fissure as it opens and killing enemies at the time, not after the fact, so more Traces are gained just by situational change rather than any mechanical one.

I could be wrong, do test it. Go into a mission with people in a Voice chat instead of just public, then stay as a group through the mission, taking on each Fissure while it's open the way you would Solo. See how many Traces you gain from that mission. If I'm right, you'll have the larger amount, if I'm wrong it'll be random.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

On 2019-07-12 at 12:37 PM, Avienas said:

So i was gonna wait a few days before i throw up another feedback topic but then i decided to actually take the time to look around on trace farming and tried doing a proper long run survival solo fissure without giving 0 cares about that rolling bit. Apparently to nutshell: It seems like trace gain consistency is stronger in solo vs being in a group, but it could just be me being lucky.

The amount of traces given is RNG.  There's no correlation to number of players and the amount of traces rewarded.  Go into a mission with multiple people and you'll find that everyone receives a different amount of traces.

On 2019-07-12 at 5:10 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Just to stick my oar in from the way I believe this is being adjusted; Void Traces are gained per Reactant you pick up while the Fissure is active. What can happen on public runs is that the players can spread out, and Corruption can happen to enemies, but the Fissure that spawned them can close before you get to them or the Reactant. This would mean that you're not picking up the Reactant while the Fissure is open, and thus not gaining the Traces from it.

No, that is not correct.  It's a random reward.

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

No, that is not correct.  It's a random reward.

It's a random reward, yes, that happens while the fissure is active. You get anywhere from 6 to 30 as a reward per Reactant.

But from what I've observed in missions you don't get that random amount if you pick up the Reactant while the Fissure is closed, thus giving you less for that mission.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

2 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's a random reward, yes, that happens while the fissure is active. You get anywhere from 6 to 30 as a reward per Reactant.

But from what I've observed in missions you don't get that random amount if you pick up the Reactant while the Fissure is closed, thus giving you less for that mission.

No, that is not correct.  If you got 6 to 30 per reactant, then you would end up with 60 to 300 traces at the end.  After you've collected 10 reactants, you get a random reward of 6 to 30 traces.  It's not a case of getting the 30 unless you pick them up at the wrong time, thus giving you less.  It's a case of getting an RNG amount.  Try with a squad of 2 and stick close to the other person so that you pick up the reactants at the same time and they'll get a different number of traces than you will.

[el_chanis]

the whole relic system is a mess because the farming process is incredibly convoluted. Right now, the void is meaningless as it is. All void missions need to grant traces on completion or rotation (for endless), and all void missions need to let you open relics acording to their level. That would solve this issue, since it will let us farm traces consistently, or open them in tandem, instead of keeping us waiting for time-efficient missions.

[Alexcavalera]

There are no problems in this system! No need to waste time on this! More cheesy, than it already is is impossible, You want things  more esay? Buy them...

[el_chanis]

4 minutes ago, Alexcavalera said:

There are no problems in this system! No need to waste time on this! More cheesy, than it already is is impossible, You want things  more esay? Buy them...

awww, someone messing with your little business? Have a cookie.

The system is incredibly S#&$ty, not only because it makes the relic opening incredibly unpleasant, but also because it makes the void useless, and that is, by definition, a flawed design.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

2 hours ago, el_chanis said:

Right now, the void is meaningless as it is.

It's where they are placing vaulted relics during unvaultings.  That's not meaningless.

[el_chanis]

1 minute ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

It's where they are placing vaulted relics during unvaultings.  That's not meaningless.

Wich can be also gotten from syndicate standing. It's meaningless.

Compared to how central the void used to be in the general gameplay, right now is the back alley of a bad neighborhood.

And not only that, but its also lorebreaking, how is it possible that we can get traces from Void RIFTS but can't get traces from the void ITSELF. 

The void should be harder, and more rewarding.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

6 minutes ago, el_chanis said:

Wich can be also gotten from syndicate standing. It's meaningless.

We can get all relics from syndicate standing.  That's doesn't register the star chart meaningless.

[Alexcavalera]

1 hour ago, el_chanis said:

awww, someone messing with your little business? Have a cookie.

Gotta love your answer! Made me laugh! Nice one !! ( but sadly, i am not running any kind of bussiness..just the usual hardcore grind..!)
But talking seriously, i don't think is broken..but by broken, you think its difficult to get the void traces to refine the relics? you are saying that should be moire easy to get the traces? is traces are easy to get, so will the rewards.. As for now, 2019, its easy to farm the prime parts from relics, and  easy to buy. I don´t think it should be esier than it is already...
I use my example, i play foir 8 months, and i have almost everything i want and need in the game (75 % i guess), and i spent 0 money..i farmed everything ( farmed plat to buy the vaulted stuff), so i don´t think things should be easier than it it is...
If the game gets to easy (and this is a easy game to play), waht´s the point of playing, if you cheese it all the way???

[el_chanis]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

We can get all relics from syndicate standing.  That's doesn't register the star chart meaningless.

when you can completely ignore a big chunk of the map, wich, oh my, is also the very end of it, then it's beyond meaningless.

I've been playing the game for over 4 years by now. The void used to be important. Now i go only to get argon. Thats a deep falling from grace, the kind of falling that registers as "useless and forgotten" meaningless.

[el_chanis]

4 minutes ago, Alexcavalera said:

Gotta love your answer! Made me laugh! Nice one !! ( but sadly, i am not running any kind of bussiness..just the usual hardcore grind..!)
But talking seriously, i don't think is broken..but by broken, you think its difficult to get the void traces to refine the relics? you are saying that should be moire easy to get the traces? is traces are easy to get, so will the rewards.. As for now, 2019, its easy to farm the prime parts from relics, and  easy to buy. I don´t think it should be esier than it is already...
 I use my example, i play foir 8 months, and i have almost everything i want and need in the game (75 % i guess), and i spent 0 money..i farmed everything ( farmed plat to buy the vaulted stuff), so i don´t think things should be easier than it it is...
 If the game gets to easy (and this is a easy game to play), waht´s the point of playing, if you cheese it all the way???

The process should be far easier, the void should be far harder. It needs to be proper endgame. I don't think rifts should be gone, they are a good way for newbies and casuals to get relics open, but the void itself should be a hellish nightmeare that provide proper rewards. I can count with the finger of one hand how many times i went to it the last month. Not days, not weeks. MONTH.

I used to had to stay 2hs in a IV relic to get a big return. That was dumb. Now i have to do stupid missions to get SOME reward. There is a middle ground between pointless grind and obnoxious drag. Fast, dense, and difficult missions, wich right now, aside from sorties, we lack entirely.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

20 minutes ago, el_chanis said:

when you can completely ignore a big chunk of the map, wich, oh my, is also the very end of it, then it's beyond meaningless.

I've been playing the game for over 4 years by now. The void used to be important. Now i go only to get argon. Thats a deep falling from grace, the kind of falling that registers as "useless and forgotten" meaningless.

People who have been playing for 4 years are able to ignore a large part of the starmap, yes.  That's because we have stores of materials to use and don't have much need to smack around enemies that we can easily kill.  That's why things like argon crystals and relics for vaulted items appear in the Void, to give a reason to be there.  It might not be a reason that appeals to you, specifically, but it's a reason for others none-the-less.

This is really off-topic BTW, so we should probably stop.  If you want to continue, then perhaps make a thread to present your ideas?

Edited July 15, 2019 by (XB1)R3d P01nt
Took out a comment that wasn't relevant.

[Avienas]

1 hour ago, Alexcavalera said:

Gotta love your answer! Made me laugh! Nice one !! ( but sadly, i am not running any kind of bussiness..just the usual hardcore grind..!)
But talking seriously, i don't think is broken..but by broken, you think its difficult to get the void traces to refine the relics? you are saying that should be moire easy to get the traces? is traces are easy to get, so will the rewards.. As for now, 2019, its easy to farm the prime parts from relics, and  easy to buy. I don´t think it should be esier than it is already...
I use my example, i play foir 8 months, and i have almost everything i want and need in the game (75 % i guess), and i spent 0 money..i farmed everything ( farmed plat to buy the vaulted stuff), so i don´t think things should be easier than it it is...
If the game gets to easy (and this is a easy game to play), waht´s the point of playing, if you cheese it all the way???

Oh hey, this thread baked quite alot after i decided to leave it be for a while. Honestly when i say it feels op-ly better in solo is due to lack of stress while farming, even a RNG-sus value can feel significantly better when there is alot less hassle going on, thus making it feel better.

Honestly the issue is the value of everything that is not a riven mod keeps wanting to constantly go down which basically makes marketing a pain and even when people used to invest mass amounts of parts into ducats to make some plat is not even worth anymore. Because once a set reaches less then say...70 plat, which honestly id say the fair point is 100, it basically turns into why try to farm this unless one can get a better way to obtain said things.

Honestly i am very sure in one thread or another i rambled on how any type of proper company should continuously strive to improve thar games, otherwise they would turn into a stagnated mess(Aka what pretty much i see any triple A company that only want money and likely dont care if title they chunk out shivels up in a few months or after 1 year long as they basically make triple or infinitely more then what it cost to make), especially as newer systems are put in place, making it more tedious to handle them all. Just as a certain member of D.E. roughly said, things like OW basically feel more like a island where you have to jump to that island to do those things and cant do anything else beyond those. In terms of fissures....well:

• Can`t farm traces unless its in fissures which despite being a content about the void leaking into regular maps, you cannot jump into the void to set a vacuum and collect traces there, also we have these fissure maps in the void maps too.
• Most relic farms pre-bounties were just exploiting typically 2 round rotation cheese (unless its name is ODD aka the land of Lith Farm), especially if you are running public with Axi having to be the edgie sibling and has to be thru the higher maps and only thru typically later rotation drops. Post-bounties, now its just become a game of camping the tracker for X relic to show up with only maybe 2 to 3 sections (depending of ghoul bounties are active for the 4th one), otherwise go back to normal farming.
• In terms of farming one`s set it can be easy, but its basically turns into a cest-pool when one wants to make platinum for various needs (which you can say you dont really platinum but any long term player would give you the b-slap for disrespecting all the things one needs to cover such as slots, potatoes, boosters, fashion and so many more).
• BUT compared to old void system, relic system heavily relies on being in a mass mob of people(4 people always or risk lower odds of obtaining your goods), which at the very least the most Simple of quality of life improvement that could occur and i feel like would fix so many things even if its the only thing that occurs to relics, is relic opening stops relying on having multiple players present to have extra rolls which pressures everyone to deal with some more tedious-ness of getting a group, open a relic, some disband and you rinse and repeat till you get all you want per weapon, warframe and other sets you want.
• ALSO its the reverse issue, the game is not getting too easy but the value of basically everything sold (usually for plat since its a rarity i believe to see people trading goods instead) is crumbling so hard, that it becomes harder for people to purchase various goodies unless they just are riven marketers, Put an increased effort into stocking up items to sell or just pay out of pocket to cover platinum needs. Might be fine on PC or maybe other consoles, but at the very least on PS4 in the last few months, syndicate mods went from 10 to 4~5 plat, you likely will never see single arcanes above 100 plat, lets not even get started where most people demand prime sets for 30~50 platinum unless its day 1 fresh release, cant even expect once a year acolyte mods to sell for any decent value, Lets not even get started on ayatan statues basically becoming half value(where a full anasa could go for a easy 8 plat or so before) or less soon as arbitations came around, despite anasa not really being part of the arbitation reward pool(obviously due to endo becoming even absurdly easier to obtain) AND even highly sought after mods like Adaptation will not even peak that well either.

 

• PLUS there is a difference between difficulty because it takes time and difficulty because the mission type is annoying to do. Trace gain only gets a mini 25% booster after round 3 and then every 4th or so round after that. If it was not for a resource booster, i myself could barely make 250 traces in a hour of solo survival(with it implying the trace gain landed more in the 15~30 spectrum then the 3~14 one), even if i had 3 other people constantly picking my item in those 12 instances, it would only amount to around 180 traces, but thats in a absurdly unrealistic scenario so i might be lucky to get 30 to 60 in that case. IF D.E. were to ever update void traces, they should honestly remove this bonus mini booster system(SINCE affinity & credit bonus boosters serve no purpose honestly and might be better in ESO & index) and just give a % bonus for every round of a endless fissure done which becomes greater in scale after each wave, becoming especially absurdly high as you get into 40 min or even hour long sessions. Simple example being +5% after wave 5, +10% total at wave 10, +20% total at wave 15, +30% total at wave 20. Basically adding an extra +5% on the 2nd wave to the previous gain value and maybe if they wanted to restrain it, maybe cap it off at +300% bonus traces.
• Also, there is a difference between cheesing a game and having to intentionally use what you might as well call cheese, in order to quickly obtain what you need before say those prime items become vaulted OR if you want to get a set together to sell while the value is still high and then use that platinum to get yourself a shiny new skin for your favorite warframe. This is kind of why people mass pile up syndicate points & medallions in advance, some likely farming them for 3 whole months.

Just for a fun little bit of math. Lets say one can farm 3 syndicates a day, 9 missions total and each one will always give a 500 standing medal(just to keep things simple) and every mission will always give 8 medals.If it takes 90 days for a new prime to drop, well TL:DR: 90 days times 9 missions is 810 missions and 810 times 4k supposed medallion standing per mission equals 3.24million standing. Which basically sums up to 162 relic packs, not counting regular standing. Probably a little side tracked there but i feel like when the option for that cheese is present, people are just wanting to intentionally burn themselves out to suffer making enough plat thru this burn out or have to farm it so fresh, most people who dont rely on things like wikias and what not wonder how the heck did you get it that fast and barely get anything out of it while chasing those expensive rivens or to get themselves some decent fashion off the warframe market.

Massive TL;DR if you cant stomach digesting and processing the full reasoning why things like relic system is a hassle: Void key system being a hassle to some players likely helped it be simple, Either brave the challenge to obtain it yourself or somehow make enough plat to buy it expensive, while those brave enough to grind to sell them were able to get justly rewarded for the amount of time put in or even use them as actual trade fodder to get other quality goods. Relic system supposedly made it better but tacked on 3 more grind walls just to prepare everything before you can start, YET it went to such absurdly cheap values on all the goods, unless people are day 1 dealing with it(Which good luck if you did not prepare traces or relic packs in ADVANCE), they might as well see the grind as a hassle when they can get it dirt cheap, making the farmers have less reason to put an effort in and make those who want to get the sets for themselves better be ready to dive many hours in, likely in one day just to prepare to chase after that prime part or just get absurdly lucky on X relic dropping fast and likely getting the semi-rare to rare parts within the first 2 relics, but likely did not prepare extra relics in advance cause they want to think rng-sus does not exist and they would get what they want after one try.

Which honestly its only because people always WANT plat they will continue to bit-coin mine even when they are only getting 1/10th of a fragment of plat per rare part they throw up on the market. Value withers too fast and with no actual change to the difficulty obtaining them, it makes one think they might as well try to deal with other tedious content despite low drop rates to even obtain said item, low chance to obtain X weapon on said riven and then suffer another huge amount of farming aka mass piles of kuva just to pray that one single egg can be polished to shine like gold and fool some whale to drop a load off for the shiny egg to munch on. 

Plain and simple: D.E. needs to clean things up, so we arent spending so much time on ONE island and can actually go to a DIFFERENT island without regretting wasting time on that 2nd island when one has to farm so much more on the FIRST island for certain needs. Get rid of market chat & cram in a REAL marketing system so we can stop with the circus things of playing marco-polo with 100+ people to earn a cookie for catching ONE SPECIFIC person and they actually let you catch them without struggling, smooth out the relic system with less hassle to plan everything out if all we really want is just the next shiny gilded frame and only need to spend a couple of hours to get everything we need, bloody just gut out tedious things like syndicate medallions so maybe we dont have the obsessionist players able to prepare 20~80 or so relic packs in advance, get all the parts in less then a hour or so and likely oversaturate the market faster then the normal people can get what they want and sell some extra for a decent amount.

Gonna stop the ranting here since it feels like there is always going to be someone who does the, No U, argument, (without any actual evidence to back their argument at all) because D.E. is not exactly the most prompt of companies to get thru with overhauling very, veeeerry old things that could seriously use it, Good company overall, but there is always a point where the most minor of additions and a UI tweak is not really going to resolve everything, one would only complain about a game this long because they like it alot, if they didnt, then very sure they would rather leave it for good. Likely i will make another thread if i want to go over all the very old things that have been around QUITE a while on warframe and feel like they have been neglected on any in-game improvements, actual ones, not just simple UI tweaks and a visit this place button, but for now, ill just get back to having fun farming loads of apothic material for silver grove specter killings, but that gripe of it being tedious is just cause map design and looking for blobs honestly.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Avienas