Please do not cave on Nightwave.

[Gofretko]

On 2019-08-01 at 7:35 AM, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Do people honestly believe DE started googling ways to abuse mental issues, stumbled upon "FOMO," and proceeded to aim to take advantage of players who are susceptible to it?

Yes. These days those abhorrent manipulative tactics are viewed as your normal run-of-the-mill marketing tropes. Don't believe a stranger on the forum, go ask a marketer in any big company.

The FOMO in particular is a very favourite tool and it's proven to work basically everywhere.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

5 hours ago, Gofretko said:

Seems like you need a life. Also, Warframe gives you some amount of hard, or at least, not-easy-to-one-shot content. Do that and let the casuals play and farm in peace.

If you need a huge challenge, buy a mountain bike, get out there, and try beating some records.

... Does "casual content" have to not involve sorties and bounties?  Or bullet jumps or forma?  Hmmm...

Also wow thanks, you did what the doctors never could and cured my disability so I can mountain bike.

2 hours ago, Gofretko said:

Yes. These days those abhorrent manipulative tactics are viewed as your normal run-of-the-mill marketing tropes. Don't believe a stranger on the forum, go ask a marketer in any big company.

The FOMO in particular is a very favourite tool and it's proven to work basically everywhere.

So, DE is purposely trying to take advantage of mental health issues, they're not just adding some sort of repeating content to the game for us to play.  Okie dokie then lol.

Kinda begs the question of why you'd go so far as to be involved in their feedback forum if you think the company is so nefarious.  That's quite a claim to make of a company whose product you're trying to help them improve.

Edited August 4, 2019 by (PS4)BenHeisennberg

[Gofretko]

2 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Kinda begs the question of why you'd go so far as to be involved in their feedback forum if you think the company is so nefarious.  That's quite a claim to make of a company whose product you're trying to help them improve.

You have already been told by several people in this thread: disliking certain aspects of a game does not correlate with not caring or keeping quiet. And that by sharing disagreement at the forums the game creators can learn the nuances of those aspects of the game, and where did they go wrong. You can keep asking the question of course but the answer has already been given to you yet you pretend it wasn't.

Also, don't get surprised -- when you are condescending -- that people tend to react to you in the same manner. Work on not generalising complex topics and you'll get better reactions, including from myself.

Furthermore, you have been given fantastic and detailed rebuttals of your otherwise very weak original post. Kind of begs the question why have you never answered them but latched onto what you thought was an easy opponent. Seems telling but I'm open to have my mind changed by you.

So, care to answer some of the people on page 3 or 4, or will you keep pretending that you can act snide instead? I have to tell you, you are doing a very bad job at being sarcastic / condescending so you might as well actually discuss the topic at hand.

Wanna try?

Edited August 4, 2019 by Gofretko
Typo

[Steel_Rook]

20 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

This is an example of filler objectives. While bullet jumping is normal, the amount you need to do in a day often requires you do nothing except do some tiny, pointless bullet jumps instead of running to the objective. It's unnecessary.

While I'll freely agree that Bullet Jumping and scanning stuff and such ARE busywork, they mostly show up as Dailies. To be perfectly honest, I'm fine with Daily Challenges being effectively filler work - the equivalent of "show up and play the game for a while." They carry little reward, they show up every day, so I treat them as the equivalent of my daily log-in reward. I'd personally rather keep Dailies trivial like this, and shift the actual challenging requirements to Weeklies and Elite Weeklies.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

8 hours ago, Gofretko said:

You have already been told by several people in this thread: disliking certain aspects of a game does not correlate with not caring or keeping quiet. And that by sharing disagreement at the forums the game creators can learn the nuances of those aspects of the game, and where did they go wrong. You can keep asking the question of course but the answer has already been given to you yet you pretend it wasn't.

Also, don't get surprised -- when you are condescending -- that people tend to react to you in the same manner. Work on not generalising complex topics and you'll get better reactions, including from myself.

Furthermore, you have been given fantastic and detailed rebuttals of your otherwise very weak original post. Kind of begs the question why have you never answered them but latched onto what you thought was an easy opponent. Seems telling but I'm open to have my mind changed by you.

So, care to answer some of the people on page 3 or 4, or will you keep pretending that you can act snide instead? I have to tell you, you are doing a very bad job at being sarcastic / condescending so you might as well actually discuss the topic at hand.

Wanna try?

I'll take a look later at comments I missed later, some of what I saw was decent discussion surrounding improving it instead of saying that everything had to disappear, a couple people who disagreed used old tired talking points that have been answered many times across the forum.

Part of why I took the time to  respond to yours in particular was that your original comment gave me a good laugh.  Reacting to an opinion you disagree with by saying "oh yeah well uh... you have no life lol" is hilarious and unbecoming of a feedback forum.

Wanting stuff like bounties and sorties to stay isn't asking for that big of a challenge.

Now, how can you answer "yes" to my question asking if DE is literally attempting to abuse mental health issues, and still in good conscience support the company?  I'm not saying they do and no one should support them, I'm saying they aren't and were simply attempting to add repeatable content.  Tinfoil hat conspiracies are an amusing, but unhelpful, part of the discussion.

Edited August 4, 2019 by (PS4)BenHeisennberg

[Somi_xD]

Am 30.7.2019 um 17:17 schrieb LSG501:

Essentially the issue boils down to the fact that there is no real reason for us to go back to a lot of these locations because there is nothing there for us to go there for and we'd rather be doing something that actually benefits us.  The challenges are fine for newbies who can do all the missions (that's a different issue) and have a reason to do them but some of us are just not interested/bored/finished with parts of the game and in a way it feels like DE is using the 'challenges' as a way to inflate player participation in dead parts of the game rather than adding in a reason for us to go back in the first place.

That's the main problem with Warframe, most Items only needed once.
Most parts of this game have no replay value.
That's why Warframe has "Content Droughts", when new Content drops, we get it once or twice, or do it once or twice and it's already old.
There is low value on most Content in Warframe, may it be Items or Missions, Challenges etc.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Somi_xD

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

On 2019-07-31 at 12:00 AM, Thrymm said:

And...... there's the magic nonsense.

1.  What about the players who have not been there and done that?  No, really, what about them?  They can still do it, nothing is stopping them from a thing, and there doesn't need to be a nightwave challenge in order to send them to this content.  For point of reference, check out the first six years of the game---no nightwave and we still did stuff.  The whole "then don't do it" line of logic that we see in so many of these tired "mah chaluunguz" threads works both ways--and really, being new here is golden, when you've got that mountain of unfinished content ahead of you to enjoy yet you don't exactly need nightwave to make it something to do.

2.  Nobody complained about 150 bullet jumps being too hard.  Frankly I wish folks would stop parroting that whole "people think it's too hard" crap.  The entire thread was based around it being tedious, arduous, and excessive.  I'd tend to agree.  It's just kind of a dumb challenge, honestly, and I've no idea why anyone would just outright defend it, as if not having stuff like that would make the game less in some way.

 

And then, for a grand cherry on top....the good ole' fashioned "Work for it".  Sorry, but I don't clock in to play this game.  Odds are that's exceptionally rare.  Nobody here should "work" in their game, not one time, not ever.  If it becomes work, it was developed wrong.  If it wasn't developed wrong and you still feel like you're working, it's probably not for you.  Just stop with that stuff.

My last thought on the whole thing is that, well....I think season two challenges are massively improved over the first.  There is a much more noticeable respect for our time, and a much better grasp of how to make bite sized challenges rather than arduous work projects.  I think it's on the right track.

 

Since someone is saying there's stuff I skipped that I should respond to, I'll respond to this one.

"Work" by the definitions of people across this thread, exists throughout the game.  Ever done clan research?  Ever worked on increasing your mastery?  Ever rolled a riven?  This is a grindy game.  Those aren't for everyone, but for those who enjoy a grind, this fits right in.

People actually complained about bullet jumping being too hard to complete in the given time frame.  Browse through the comments in the thread another comment linked.  That's one of many cases when hyperbolic freakouts over Nightwave went over the top ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Nightwave should be a challenge to players like me at the end of the game.  We do endless missions, fast tricaps, etc.  We also ask for "endgame" content separately and do not expect it from Nightwave (at least, those of us with any sense).

It's when people are playing a grindy game and then asking DE to neuter this because they only have 2 minutes a week and absolutely have to have the infested operator skin and have the ability to prestige, that it becomes a little ridiculous to see almost every single challenge complained about.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

1 hour ago, Somi_xD said:

That's the main problem with Warframe, most Items only needed once.
Most parts of this game have no replay value.
That's why Warframe has "Content Droughts", when new Content drops, we get it once or twice, or do it once or twice and it's already old.
There is low value on most Content in Warframe, may it be Items or Missions, Challenges etc.

An interesting point discussed earlier in this thread and in another one is that this isn't the issue.  The issue is that people do not find most of the game intrinsically fun, and ditch things the second they have the rewards.

DE attempts to address this by including those missions in Nightwave, giving those missions another reward.  But there's kinda something wrong if people have to be earning something new to have any desire to play most of the game.

[Gofretko]

4 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Reacting to an opinion you disagree with by saying "oh yeah well uh... you have no life lol" is hilarious and unbecoming of a feedback forum.

I am entitled to believe you have a case of first world problems and I judged it by the way you formulated your OP where you grossly over-simplified the topic plus tried to be dismissive of people who disagree, preliminarily. Let's just accept that both sides don't exactly do a 100% productive discussion. I'll settle for 80% plus some light jabs. :)

4 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Now, how can you answer "yes" to my question asking if DE is literally attempting to abuse mental health issues, and still in good conscience support the company?

Simple and sad answer: we really don't have that much of a choice of quality games like Warframe out there. It's true that in theory Steam / GOG / G2A / PS4 / Xbox one / etc. have tens of thousands of titles but let's be real, 99% of those games are trash or can be exhausted in 2-3 afternoons and never touched again.

Judging by DE's reversing stance on things like the real-money-roulette that was the Kubrows fiasco, I am willing to accept they are (a) either slow to learn which is fair and can happen to all of us, or (b) they are continuously pushing the envelope and probing what are the limits of the playerbase's tolerance.

Overall: I believe DE are good-willed but not immune to shady business practices that are well-proven to work in many other areas. It can be very tempting and the extra income and feeling of power is intoxicating and almost nobody can stop themselves from doing more of that. Need I even post links? Many companies buckle under investor pressure for more and more growth and thus reach for worse and worse tactics with time. I happen to know at least 20 marketers and discussed those issues with them at length. Most openly admitted they don't care that they use predatory psychological tactics and only think of them when openly confronted about them by other people, and _never_ before. It's just how we tick, man. We're greedy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

4 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Tinfoil hat conspiracies are an amusing, but unhelpful, part of the discussion.

Tinfoil hat conspiracies by definition are unproven and highly unlikely gibberish. What I am saying can hardly be described as such since these business practices are well documented and almost every MBA studies them in detail. All marketers and sales-people, too. As I mentioned above, FOMO is something that's hugely exploited in today's economy, and definitely not just in gaming. And many people, on specialised or not-that-specialised forums (like HackerNews), come forward and say "yes that's very A******-ish of us but the tactics work and we get more money".

In that climate I don't find it at all surprising that a F2P game owning company like DE might get tempted. They have to make money after all and at some point they will reach for tactics they originally wouldn't. And it seems that already happened.

[Somi_xD]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (PS4)BenHeisennberg:

An interesting point discussed earlier in this thread and in another one is that this isn't the issue.  The issue is that people do not find most of the game intrinsically fun, and ditch things the second they have the rewards.

DE attempts to address this by including those missions in Nightwave, giving those missions another reward.  But there's kinda something wrong if people have to be earning something new to have any desire to play most of the game.

No Reward? No Reason to play it.
Fun is basically to outcome, for getting rewarded (in most cases).

The question that follows is, what is fun and what makes fun?
Rewards do - there are different forms.
You can split up those rewards in those sections. (Bartles taxonomie of player types)

Spoiler

There are different kinds of rewards for different kinds of player.
- Competition in form of PvP, Setting and Beating Records
- Exploring the world, the lore
- Getting all Items, or rare Items
- Having fun with other players (achieving things, or just doing nonsense)

Warframe has many of those things, but poorly implemented.
Most content in this game has not replay value no FUN value, as soon as you done it 1 or 2, maybe 3 times.
Warframe Eco - System is meh.

Spoiler

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Somi_xD:

I agree with OP, we need a change in Warframe Market System.
But there is a bigger problem then this, the whole economy in warframe is flawed.

Trading
- Limited to Dojo, Limited to Trades per day
- Limits depend on MR
- isn't explained
- Trade Chat is a chaos, you need 3rd Party options to acutally experience a normal trading system (like in many other online games)

Items farming worth
- Most items are only needed once
- refarming only for sell, but that's limited since the demand for most items is low
That's why most "Veterans, High LvLs, Long Time Player" have no content, when new content comes, they farm it once and the fun is over.

Credits
- only farmable, not tradeable
- limited Use
- low Value

Resources
- basically same issue like credits

Mods, Prime Parts
- 90% Basically worth nothing
- 7% go for OK prices
- last 3% go overpriced
- At least "Trash Parts" have some value with Ducates
- Mods are small Endo Fodder, Ayatan sculptures are for Endo

Rivens
- mostly way to overpriced

And the Curse and Blessing, that the Premium Currency is the main Tading Currency.
1. Somehow this currency needs to find it's way into the game, and only the Plat bought by PPL is tradeable.  (That's the main moneymaker for Warframe)
(And who are those People buying it? Mostly "whales" some few people who spend big money on F2P games.)
2. Using premium Currency = removing it from the game, with the need of people to get it into the game again.
3. People who hoard Plat, without really using it (mostly player who already got everything they need) - that's Plat which is to 90% out of the market flow.

TL;DR:
- Clunky trading
- You farm most Items once
- Ingame Currency isn't much worth
- only few Sinks for most items
- extrem items value (extremly low or extremly high)
- Trading is Based on Premium Currency

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (PS4)BenHeisennberg:

But there's kinda something wrong if people have to be earning something new to have any desire to play most of the game.

No - there isn't anything wrong with this.
It doesn't need to be something new, but re-useable, transformable, recycle able.

Or would you do Sports/Fittness if you wouldn't get anything for it?
- not losing weight
- not gaining muscles
- no improvements in skills
- not having the chance to beat the opposite Team to show how your skills are better (may it be your personal skills, or teamwork)

Edited August 4, 2019 by Somi_xD

[Sepharoth]

As far as nightwave goes, I am one that does not enjoy PoE or Orb so all those missions are a no go for me. I don't care to play in either of those worlds so I lose out on all the missions where you have to go to either place. I don't mind nightwave but I would like to see less missions stuck behind going to PoE or Orb. But that is just me.

[LunaSelenis]

I have to partially disagree. While i do like that Nightwave gives me something to do, there are some challenges which i think should be changed into something else. The Challenges i have a problem with are: 

• Profit Taker - because the fight is locked behind a 5 Rank Reputation Grind, i'd prefer it to be Eidolons instead since that is much more accessable
• Silver Grove - Its more annoying then challenging and requires you to spend resources
• Gilding and Formaing - Both require you to spend resources. It just feels like a waste of spending 3 Forma just to complete the 'Challenge' and devalues the Forma Bundle you get, by turning it from a reward into a refund
• Bounties - The only issue i have with it is, that it requires you to do different bounties, making it so that you have to either wait 1 hour or do the other ones that you may not be strong enough for yet

Everything else is fine in my Book. There are many things, mainly Cetus/Vallis Tasks, that i personally don't like doing, either because they annoy me, are mindnumbingly boring or both, which is why i like that i can literally ignore those Tasks whenever they appear.
I would prefer if there were more Tasks, that require me to shoot stuff or that requires me to do things i would usually end up doing during normal gameplay anyways, such as:

• Getting 50 Headshots 
• Getting 25 Headshot kills 
• Inflict Status Effects 500 times
• Getting a Crit 250 times
• Killing 1000 Enemies
• Killing 2 Enemies with 1 Bullet/Projectile
• Find any Rare resources 10 times
• Craft an item in your Foundry
• Enter a Relay
• Complete a solo Level 30+ Exterminate with only your Melee Weapon equipped
• Complete a solo Level 15+ Capture Mission in 3 Minutes or less
• Gain 1000 Endo
• Kill any 3 different Bosses
• Complete 2 rounds of a Level 30+ Interception without using any Abilities
• Traverse 30 Meters without touching the ground and without using Abilities

I could go on, but i don't want to write endlessly. All of these tasks i've just suggested are easily accessable and can be completed by the majority of players. They are what you would do anyways which means you would probably complete them even if you did not pay attention to it.

On another Note, i would prefer if the catch-up system would get some improvements. Assuming you did not complete an Elite Weekly Task, the next time you complete one, you can immediately continue with one from a past week without having to complete all other tasks first. Since there are always some tasks that a person either can't do or hates doing, it would make catching up easier while allowing players to pick and choose which tasks they wish to do or ignore.

[CastIronNest]

6 hours ago, LunaSelenis said:

 

• Bounties - The only issue i have with it is, that it requires you to do different bounties, making it so that you have to either wait 1 hour or do the other ones that you may not be strong enough for yet

 

Wait, is that true? Bounties are far and away my least favorite part of the game, so I don't really pay them any mind but that's nuts if that's how the Nightwave challenge works.

[DCaedus]

En 30/7/2019 a las 9:58, (PS4)BenHeisennberg dijo:

Please, do not cater to a minority of people who refuse to play the game.

I totally agree with your main point of not making the game exceedingly easy, and many people just like complaining for whatever they can and doing nothing.

However, Nightwave is not a main game mode, it is more of a side thing to do as I see it, and altho I think this season It is mostly fine, there's some stuff I'd like them to change.

Again, most of the challenges are fine, I have very few complains this season.

Mainly challenges that are too long and repetitive, like:

• Invasions. I don't remember how many we have to do for this challenge, but Invasions by themselves are little rewarding, I'd like to see it cut down to 6 or 3 invasion missions.
• 30 minutes of survival. I don't really have a big problem with this one, but maybe making it 20 min would be more accessible.
• Bounties. I don't have an issue with bounties, the real issue here is that we have to do different bounties, the fact that they have to be different bounties is bad, because we can't farm for a particular reward or cheese it by doing the easiest bounty if that's what we want. Doing 6 different bounties is just too time consuming.
• Forma: As an advanced player with forma on every single weapon and frame I use, most of the time I don't have anything to forma, and hell I'm not wasting three forma on a weapon that I will never use. That or have a weapon that I want to forma but wait for the forma challenge to pop up so I don't have to do the previous, both options suck.

As I said, Nightwave is not a main game mode of the game, but more of a side thing to do, and as such it should be easy, and not exceedingly time consuming. Not exceedingly easy or short either, but that's the thing, finding the sweet spot which was much closer in this season of NW.

Every other challenge is perfectly fine to me.

As for Alerts, the Alert system had some serious issues as it was, however if we could have BOTH alerts and Nightwave be a thing I would be glad with that. Not Alerts for 10k credits ofc... Altho those were good for very early players to get some ez credits...

Also, I quite liked the Eidolon Elite weekly, and they seem to have removed it, which is a shame, I wish they didn't remove that one.

Edited August 5, 2019 by D_Caedus

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

16 hours ago, Gofretko said:

I am entitled to believe you have a case of first world problems and I judged it by the way you formulated your OP where you grossly over-simplified the topic plus tried to be dismissive of people who disagree, preliminarily. Let's just accept that both sides don't exactly do a 100% productive discussion. I'll settle for 80% plus some light jabs. 🙂

Simple and sad answer: we really don't have that much of a choice of quality games like Warframe out there. It's true that in theory Steam / GOG / G2A / PS4 / Xbox one / etc. have tens of thousands of titles but let's be real, 99% of those games are trash or can be exhausted in 2-3 afternoons and never touched again.

Judging by DE's reversing stance on things like the real-money-roulette that was the Kubrows fiasco, I am willing to accept they are (a) either slow to learn which is fair and can happen to all of us, or (b) they are continuously pushing the envelope and probing what are the limits of the playerbase's tolerance.

Overall: I believe DE are good-willed but not immune to shady business practices that are well-proven to work in many other areas. It can be very tempting and the extra income and feeling of power is intoxicating and almost nobody can stop themselves from doing more of that. Need I even post links? Many companies buckle under investor pressure for more and more growth and thus reach for worse and worse tactics with time. I happen to know at least 20 marketers and discussed those issues with them at length. Most openly admitted they don't care that they use predatory psychological tactics and only think of them when openly confronted about them by other people, and _never_ before. It's just how we tick, man. We're greedy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Tinfoil hat conspiracies by definition are unproven and highly unlikely gibberish. What I am saying can hardly be described as such since these business practices are well documented and almost every MBA studies them in detail. All marketers and sales-people, too. As I mentioned above, FOMO is something that's hugely exploited in today's economy, and definitely not just in gaming. And many people, on specialised or not-that-specialised forums (like HackerNews), come forward and say "yes that's very A******-ish of us but the tactics work and we get more money".

In that climate I don't find it at all surprising that a F2P game owning company like DE might get tempted. They have to make money after all and at some point they will reach for tactics they originally wouldn't. And it seems that already happened.

DE has definitely made some mistakes in the past, but I would hardly claim they're deliberately abusing mental health issues.

You "happen to know 20 marketers" who all agree that exploiting an (apparently widespread) irrational fear of missing out is a standard industry practice?  What is it you do exactly?

I feel like if national holidays were invented as a brand new thing this year, the fomo people would complain that they're timegated to a single day and that stresses them. 

The more I read about the video game FOMO phenomena, the more it sounds silly.  Googling "video game fomo" gives an article about fomo for newly released games as one of the top options, and another one describes fomo with regards to not having played highly praised games.  Basically just looks like people slapping the "fomo" label on anything that has even the slightest chance of being something to criticize, and this really just looks like an overplayed and overexaggerated piece of outrage culture.  But hey, it's an acronym, so it must be a legitimate concern.

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

On 2019-08-03 at 10:07 AM, Pizzarugi said:

This is an example of filler objectives. While bullet jumping is normal, the amount you need to do in a day often requires you do nothing except do some tiny, pointless bullet jumps instead of running to the objective. It's unnecessary.

150+ bullet jumps in a 2-3 day time period is not a lot, at all. If you play normally, 150+ is trivial in the span of just 3-4 missions, even if you play super casual

[Gofretko]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

You "happen to know 20 marketers" who all agree that exploiting an (apparently widespread) irrational fear of missing out is a standard industry practice?  What is it you do exactly?

At this point I feel you are looking for ways to be dismissive so any extra info given to you is going to become an extra vector of attack from your side.

I made my case quite well. You choose to not believe things that seem unlikely to you. That's your choice and nobody can do anything about it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Steel_Rook]

17 hours ago, Somi_xD said:

No Reward? No Reason to play it.
Fun is basically to outcome, for getting rewarded (in most cases).

While that's true, game design often works against it and DE have a really bad habit of undercutting their own content. Fortuna was the perfect example of this. I personally don't like Fortuna, or this game's general approach to Open Worlds. However, for several months in a row, everything new DE added was gated behind Fortuna. This gave me two options. I could either keep ignoring Fortuna and miss out on what look like REALLY awesome new additions (the Archwing Launcher has been a godsend!), or I could jump into the content bottleneck to start grinding. Neither solution is good.

Reward systems are designed to provide incentive and modulate player behaviour. DE's approach to reward systems is to gate all of the new rewards behind all of the new content as a means of pushing players through said content. They create their own content bottleneck. And mind you, the polar opposite isn't any better. Nightwave Season 1 tried to push everyone into doing everything and the result was the same - players feeling compelled to play content they don't like.

I'm of the opinion that most or all of the rewards should be earnable from most or all of the content. Maybe not at the same rate, maybe not with the same efficiency, but earnable nonetheless. I hated farming bosses for Warframe components. I hated farming Profit-Taker bounties for Systems, I hated farming the Ropalolyst for Wisp... But I did all of those things anyway. It didn't have a positive impact on my desire to keep coming back, though NOT having to do any of that does "feel good" at least. Being able to earn any of the above running other missions would have been nice and helped stave off burnout. And if it ends up with some people playing the same few "optimal" missions, then so be it. Let people play what they enjoy, I say.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

The more I read about the video game FOMO phenomena, the more it sounds silly.  Googling "video game fomo" gives an article about fomo for newly released games as one of the top options, and another one describes fomo with regards to not having played highly praised games.  Basically just looks like people slapping the "fomo" label on anything that has even the slightest chance of being something to criticize, and this really just looks like an overplayed and overexaggerated piece of outrage culture.  But hey, it's an acronym, so it must be a legitimate concern.

Why are you Googling "video game FOMO phenomena" and ignoring the arguments actually presented to you in this very thread? "FOMO" is a shorthand used to get a point across, but myself and others have explained what we mean by it in detail several times already. You hold onto the label and keep deflecting to issues not even brought into the conversation. I can call it lalelulelo if it makes you feel any better - the actual argument behind it wouldn't change. You've already reached for ad hominem and labels enough times that I'm left with no reason to believe that you have any intention of arguing in good faith.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

To people claiming I'm arguing in bad faith:  attempt to consider this from my point of view.

People say that DE is being predatory towards people by...  Making them scared that they're going to miss out on stuff if they don't play.  Mainly cosmetic stuff, and a special forma once per season.  And you basically have to not play for ten weeks to fully miss out, due to the catch up mechanic that DE added after feedback.

This looks silly.

[Steel_Rook]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

To people claiming I'm arguing in bad faith:  attempt to consider this from my point of view.

People say that DE is being predatory towards people by...  Making them scared that they're going to miss out on stuff if they don't play.  Mainly cosmetic stuff, and a special forma once per season.  And you basically have to not play for ten weeks to fully miss out, due to the catch up mechanic that DE added after feedback.

This looks silly.

Yes, if you disregard literally every argument that's been given to you thus far and continue to repeat the same points which have already been addressed, then it does look silly. However, doing so IS arguing in bad faith. So how about you look at this from my perspective: I attempted to be as honest and open with you as I could, under the belief that you would consider my arguments. You've repeatedly ignored the majority of what I've said and called me silly in response. How exactly do you expect me to engage with that? Because I certainly feel silly giving you the benefit of a doubt at right around this point.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

On 2019-08-01 at 7:33 AM, Steel_Rook said:

It's not like they haven't done this before. Selling Catalysts in the cash shop only, charging for revives, the whole Kubrow appearance gambling thing, etc. Sure, all of those have since been rolled back, but the mere fact that they were in the game in the first place gives you a window into DE's mentality. I wouldn't go as far as to call them malicious in that they're deliberately praying on people's weaknesses, but come on. You design a system where a player can pay money, "hit the lever" and get a random reward... And you DON'T expect someone to spend hundreds of real-life dollars hitting the lever on your SLOT MACHINE? Really? You charge people money to revive at a time when they're frustrated, vulnerable and not thinking straight and you DON'T see how this is praying on our lack of judgement during moments of tension? Really? That's entirely consistent with insidious manipulation, as well as with utterly tone-deaf cluelessness. I'm willing to err on the side of the latter, but neither is exactly a good look.

Warframe has a reputation for "DA BEST F2P EVA!!!" largely because its monetisation model offers a lot of value for money - that I'm not doubting. Even a little Platinum can go a LONG way, and few things are obviously designed to be purchased more than earned. However, it has some of the most aggressive habit-forming mechanics I've ever run into, and I've played quite a few MMOs. 24-hour build times, daily login rewards, staggered RNG, rewards for watching them on Stream... On their own, each is a harmless bit of engagement. Taken together, they create a game which aggressively drills its way into your daily schedule right next to breakfast, work and brushing your teeth. Warframe's business model doesn't want you grinding for hours and hours. It wants you coming back every day, to the point where logging in to grab your daily reward, move your Extractors around and have a look at your Foundry is as natural as getting dressed in the morning, to the point where many (myself included) keep logging into the game even on days when we aren't playing it because to not do so is to miss out.

I'm willing to give DE the benefit of a doubt, in that they genuinely meant to create a fun, engaging reward system which would make people feel good about logging into the game and fell over backwards into predatory mechanics due to cribbing from the dreck that is Fortnite. Fair enough. They've improved their reward systems in the past on a number of occasions and continue to do so. Nightwave Season 2 is itself a major step in the right direction. If Season 3 continues this trend, I foresee the complaints slowly dying down to background noise. However, it's not like they've never done anything to make me suspicious of their motives.

 

And why is that a bad thing? For one thing, not all of us care about "speed-run-able" challenges. I'm fine with stuff that takes longer as long as it's not tedious or annoying to run. For another thing, what do you care who runs what content? If people want to speed-run stuff, then let them? Nightwave is self-limiting even in its current incarnation. Those who speed-run the Elite Weeklies get to be done with them slightly faster, but they end up with the same Standing at the end of the week as everyone else. The only benefit there is for people who want to play Warframe as little as possible and want to be done with the Weeklies as fast as possible before logging out, in which case... Again, what do you care? Let them.

I don't get this mentality that I as an average player have to be forced to play content that I don't enjoy on pain of losing rewards because YOU don't approve of the content I choose to run. I'd go as far as to argue that that's easily Warframe's greatest failing. The game has a MASSIVE body of content added across what? 6-7 years now? And yet all of the new content is bottlenecked behind a single mission. Want Wisp? Keep grinding the Ropalolyst. Don't like that semi-raid-boss fight? Tough, you have to do it. Want Baruuk? Run the Profit-Taker. Don't like Fortuna? I don't care, just eat it. Slapping me with what amounts to a "#*!% YOU!" alternative to an activity I would rather not do doesn't in any way enhance my experience. It punishes me for daring to want choice.

And you're also ignoring a few basic design issues. If you send players to a higher difficulty challenge, you need to reward them more Standing. If you don't, then that's a steep penalty. If you do, then that upsets the "weekly cap by proxy" requiring an additional system for capping Standing. And if you do reward extra standing but don't cap it, then you've shifted the Status Quo completely. Now everyone is expected to run 7 Elite Weeklies per week, rather than 5 Weeklies and 2 Elite Weeklies. If you want higher challenge, ask for higher challenge. There's no reason to cannibalise a reroll system, especially when you rob it of its whole point in the process.

Besides, you're acting like players can just pick their missions at will, like I'll run 10 Nightmare missions twice a week every week. If you actually look at any of the reroll proposals brought up so far, the rerolls are limited and the result unpredictable. My personal proposal was 1 Weekly reroll per day, 1 Elite Weekly reroll every 2 days, reset on Monday. That's 7 Weekly rerolls across 5 Weekly missions and 3 Elite Weekly rerolls across 2 missions. If you're lucky and you get a "speed-runnable" Elite Weekly in one slot, the best you can do is re-roll the other three times, which would require you to come back every couple of days and still not guarantee you'll get the same speed-runnable mission. Throw in a limit on duplicate missions (i.e. if you rolled a challenge in one slot, you can't roll that again in another slot) and you gain further control over what players can do. At the end of the day, those of us asking for rerolls aren't doing it because we want to run a specific challenge. Rather, it's because we want to NOT run specific challenges and would like an option to replace them with "almost anything else."

 

To start, your list of Elite Weeklies is very uneven. Doing 10 Nightmare missions is essentially trivial, and easily accessible to even new players. Doing 60 minutes of Kuva survival without using life support, on the other hand, not possible for some people. I have 1600 hours in Warframe at this point and I couldn't pull it off with the builds I have. That requires a premade, organised team or at the very least a pretty competent veteran player to pull off. Hell, 5 Sorties is arguably even worse. Not only does it take 5 full days to pull off, but 1 Sortie is substantially more difficult than 2 Nightmare missions, regardless of context.

That aside, there's a fundamental issue with your approach to Player Choice, in that the maximum possible standing is what determins status quo. Progression systems are balanced around the most min/maxed, most optimal farming and grinding practices because the ultimate goal is to keep people from progressing too fast. By throwing more challenges into each week, you shift the status quo even higher up - more so since what you're adding is EVEN HARDER challenges. The existing Elite Weeklies which you have tagged as "Intermediate" are already outside the capabilities some people. I can't do 8 waves of Sanctuary Onslaught if I tried, and I hate the game mode too much to bother figuring out what I'm doing wrong. Yet your version of Elite Challenges holds almost 40% of all weekly standing. If, then, I'm someone who can do some but not all Intermediate challenges, and by default can't do any of the Elite challenges, then that's the majority of the standing gone right there.

If you want to go with the system you're proposing, then Nightwave HAS to have a Weekly Standing cap. That is to say, the maximum Nightwave Standing you can earn per week is capped at some value reasonable for mere mortals, and those pursuing Elite Challenges will simply be able to hit that cap faster and with fewer missions. Status quo is preserved, efficient players get to match it more easily and nobody gets left behind. That's the only way I'm willing to accept having these stupid-high-difficult challenges that most people - judging by the overwhelmingly negative response to Season 1 - simply don't like. And no, "just earn less Standing per week" is not a real choice. Warframe is not a job, nor is it a sport.

In fact, what I've been pushing for since Nightwave launched was pretty much what I described above - double or triple the number of Weekly and Elite Weekly challenges, but cap Standing gain to 43K for every week, reset on Monday. If you overshoot, the extra standing counts against your cap for next week. If you run old challenges from previous weeks via the "recovered challenge" system, that challenge counts against its own week's Standing Cap. If that week's Standing Cap is exceeded, then cascade against the caps for subsequent weeks until the present one. These are solvable technical issues, as long as people can accept having more challenges than they can earn Standing for each week. That's the only way I can see  this proposal happen.

Alright, to return to this argument.

I do take issue with the scarcity of potatoes (*partly* addressed by Nightwave), slot machine style mechanics, and other such failings.  I raised my voice when Baruuk became the first Warframe to be locked behind a syndicate, and took issue with how Hildryn was purchasable with plat while unearnable.

Now, about Nightwave:

Everything regarding your capability you listed as an issue is not an issue, and here's why:

Watch that in its entirety.  He covers the math for what you need to complete Nightwave in the (at minimum) 10 week timeframe, and it's not a lot compared to the amount of standing available per week, discounting dailies.  Furthermore, the further into the season you go, the more items are geared towards later game players.

Your solution, a cap on how much standing you earn per week to the current minimum required, is going to result in the issues raised by people who do not like the syndicate reputation cap system found throughout Warframe.

Nightwave seems to fit right in with the rest of Warframe.  And if that's an issue, I'd say the problem does not lie in the game itself, but rather in the person who picked up a grindy game that has operated the way it has since near its beginning years ago and wants it to change to suit them.

Edited August 5, 2019 by (PS4)BenHeisennberg

[Steel_Rook]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Watch that in its entirety.  He covers the math for what you need to complete Nightwave in the (at minimum) 10 week timeframe, and it's not a lot compared to the amount of standing available per week, discounting dailies.  Furthermore, the further into the season you go, the more items are geared towards later game players.

Well, right off the bat his math is either wrong or doesn't match up to what he's saying. He claims that ONLY WEEKLIES is 360K across 10 weeks. It isn't. 5*4500*10 = 225K. Even doing all the Weeklies and Dailies only brings you up to to 295K. I have no idea where he's getting the 360K figure from. He's also using a 10-week Season whereas you guys kept telling me to use a 12-week Season. Over a 10-week season, a player needs ~68.97% of all standing, and Elite Weeklies constitute 32.18% of all standing. It's a minor overlap, yes, but this is why I chide people for just repeating the "60% of all challenges" line without thinking about it. It doesn't necessarily mean what it says, and it isn't necessarily true depending on circumstances.

Moreover, your response has me a little lost. I'm having severe trouble figuring out what you're actually addressing and what points you're making. You quoted a fairly large post containing three separate responses, cited how my issues aren't issues and posted a video which is supposed to address them. The problem is I don't know to which issues you're referring, not how the video is relevant to what you actually quoted. Just to make sure we're on the same page - I've already agreed that "the math" is largely irrelevant at this point due to Season 2's challenge "Recovery" mechanic. That mechanic has issues of its own that I'll get to, but the broad strokes concept of it IS a solution to FOMO almost in its entirety.

Nightwave Season 1 was FOMO simply by its nature as a lazy copy of the Fortnite Battle Pass and all the deliberately malicious design inherent in that. Nightwave Season 2 major, fundamental adaptation of the same concept and a far better fit with the game. While the changes may appear superficially minor, they alter the core design - and the underlying psychologically manipulative mechanics - fundamentally. By allowing players to recover old challenges, everyone is granted the chance to do nearly infinite catch-up even if they miss multiple entire weeks and run into multiple challenges they can't tackle. Season 2 still has plenty of issues of its own, but the majority of them have to do with implementation - largely clumsy design and lack of usability features.

Can we agree up to this point?

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Your solution, a cap on how much standing you earn per week to the current minimum required, is going to result in the issues raised by people who do not like the syndicate reputation cap system found throughout Warframe. 

I'm going to use this quote to address several points. Firstly, I suspect that you were responding to the last part of the post you quoted, where I propose (or rather, agree with another person proposing) adding more challenges each week, but instituting a Weekly Standing Cap to keep the maximum possible progress per week the same as it is now. I'm well aware that some people dislike the Syndicate Daily Reputation cap, but I'm personally of the opinion that that's a very smart solution to an otherwise very serious problem. By their very nature, progression systems are always balanced around the highest performance available, and this is for two reasons. For one, allowing players to speed past progression hurts the overall experience. For another, this becomes the status quo experience, where everyone playing differently is playing wrong, or at least less optimally. This has the effect of pushing players into min/maxing and speed-running simply to play at the level they perceive to be intended - even when it isn't.

Timed progression caps are a neat workaround to this issue. They allow progression to be balanced lower (potentially VERY low) so that newer and lower-level players have a chance to compete without feeling compelled to grind. At the same time, progression is still capped so that min/maxed veterans can't just skip most of it. It's not perfect since you ideally want to set the caps relatively high (and I hate Standing caps being tied to MR, it completely misses the point) and that will disillusion some newer players which still pissing off the vets, but it's still better than a free-for-all. As such, a Weekly Standing Cap for Nightwave is a good way to offer more activities without speeding progression up. I get that they were intending for the "60% of all challenges" to serve that purpose, but their overall design failed to accomplish that for the reasons I cited above.

And this is important to point out: Nightwave already HAS a Weekly Standing Cap. It's 43 500 - the Standing you receive for doing all 7 Dailies, all 5 Weeklies and all 2 Elite Weeklies. Your progression is already capped. Sure, the cap is on activities and not on standing, but isn't that the worse of the two options? Wouldn't you want to have more choice in which activities you play in order to hit 43 500? Wouldn't it be at least "neat" to have a few Nightwave activities left over each week so we have something to do, even if it doesn't generate Standing? They could generate Credits or Relics or some other minor but not entirely useless reward once you're capped on Standing. I get that people who are ideologically opposed to XP Caps will dislike this, but I ask seriously here: Would the same cap as we have now be that bad, if it meant we had a few extra activities to engage in while reaching it?

And this whole line of conversation, by the way, wasn't even addressed at "the math." Well, it somewhat is by proxy, but my main push lied elsewhere. I don't want players running content they don't like. In an effort to make sure they don't have to, I'm pushing for more choice of challenges. More Weeklies, more Elite Weeklies, even adding optional harder challenges than that. It's not just me not wanting to Elite Weeklies - I like some of those! I just want more missions than I can gain Standing for, such that skipping missions doesn't put a dent in my Standing.

I don't know if that's what you were going for, but this is my best effort at addressing your points.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

1 minute ago, Steel_Rook said:

Well, right off the bat his math is either wrong or doesn't match up to what he's saying. He claims that ONLY WEEKLIES is 360K across 10 weeks. It isn't. 5*4500*10 = 225K. Even doing all the Weeklies and Dailies only brings you up to to 295K. I have no idea where he's getting the 360K figure from. He's also using a 10-week Season whereas you guys kept telling me to use a 12-week Season. Over a 10-week season, a player needs ~68.97% of all standing, and Elite Weeklies constitute 32.18% of all standing. It's a minor overlap, yes, but this is why I chide people for just repeating the "60% of all challenges" line without thinking about it. It doesn't necessarily mean what it says, and it isn't necessarily true depending on circumstances.

Moreover, your response has me a little lost. I'm having severe trouble figuring out what you're actually addressing and what points you're making. You quoted a fairly large post containing three separate responses, cited how my issues aren't issues and posted a video which is supposed to address them. The problem is I don't know to which issues you're referring, not how the video is relevant to what you actually quoted. Just to make sure we're on the same page - I've already agreed that "the math" is largely irrelevant at this point due to Season 2's challenge "Recovery" mechanic. That mechanic has issues of its own that I'll get to, but the broad strokes concept of it IS a solution to FOMO almost in its entirety.

Nightwave Season 1 was FOMO simply by its nature as a lazy copy of the Fortnite Battle Pass and all the deliberately malicious design inherent in that. Nightwave Season 2 major, fundamental adaptation of the same concept and a far better fit with the game. While the changes may appear superficially minor, they alter the core design - and the underlying psychologically manipulative mechanics - fundamentally. By allowing players to recover old challenges, everyone is granted the chance to do nearly infinite catch-up even if they miss multiple entire weeks and run into multiple challenges they can't tackle. Season 2 still has plenty of issues of its own, but the majority of them have to do with implementation - largely clumsy design and lack of usability features.

Can we agree up to this point?

 

I'm going to use this quote to address several points. Firstly, I suspect that you were responding to the last part of the post you quoted, where I propose (or rather, agree with another person proposing) adding more challenges each week, but instituting a Weekly Standing Cap to keep the maximum possible progress per week the same as it is now. I'm well aware that some people dislike the Syndicate Daily Reputation cap, but I'm personally of the opinion that that's a very smart solution to an otherwise very serious problem. By their very nature, progression systems are always balanced around the highest performance available, and this is for two reasons. For one, allowing players to speed past progression hurts the overall experience. For another, this becomes the status quo experience, where everyone playing differently is playing wrong, or at least less optimally. This has the effect of pushing players into min/maxing and speed-running simply to play at the level they perceive to be intended - even when it isn't.

Timed progression caps are a neat workaround to this issue. They allow progression to be balanced lower (potentially VERY low) so that newer and lower-level players have a chance to compete without feeling compelled to grind. At the same time, progression is still capped so that min/maxed veterans can't just skip most of it. It's not perfect since you ideally want to set the caps relatively high (and I hate Standing caps being tied to MR, it completely misses the point) and that will disillusion some newer players which still pissing off the vets, but it's still better than a free-for-all. As such, a Weekly Standing Cap for Nightwave is a good way to offer more activities without speeding progression up. I get that they were intending for the "60% of all challenges" to serve that purpose, but their overall design failed to accomplish that for the reasons I cited above.

And this is important to point out: Nightwave already HAS a Weekly Standing Cap. It's 43 500 - the Standing you receive for doing all 7 Dailies, all 5 Weeklies and all 2 Elite Weeklies. Your progression is already capped. Sure, the cap is on activities and not on standing, but isn't that the worse of the two options? Wouldn't you want to have more choice in which activities you play in order to hit 43 500? Wouldn't it be at least "neat" to have a few Nightwave activities left over each week so we have something to do, even if it doesn't generate Standing? They could generate Credits or Relics or some other minor but not entirely useless reward once you're capped on Standing. I get that people who are ideologically opposed to XP Caps will dislike this, but I ask seriously here: Would the same cap as we have now be that bad, if it meant we had a few extra activities to engage in while reaching it?

And this whole line of conversation, by the way, wasn't even addressed at "the math." Well, it somewhat is by proxy, but my main push lied elsewhere. I don't want players running content they don't like. In an effort to make sure they don't have to, I'm pushing for more choice of challenges. More Weeklies, more Elite Weeklies, even adding optional harder challenges than that. It's not just me not wanting to Elite Weeklies - I like some of those! I just want more missions than I can gain Standing for, such that skipping missions doesn't put a dent in my Standing.

I don't know if that's what you were going for, but this is my best effort at addressing your points.

I actually like this a fair bit more.  Sorry about that, I misunderstood the part about the cap.

It would certainly invite criticism, but literally everything does.  A cap at the current available standing per week, but with optional combat related challenges for those who don't want to do the more boring challenges (i.e. k drives or flowers) or haven't reached the Profit Taker yet in that syndicate, actually plays into an idea we discussed on page 2 I think it was.  That would be an excellent system.

Also, don't get me wrong, I agree with the introduction of the catch up mechanic.  That's a good addition to Nightwave.  My original post was with regards to the deluge of complaints on the forum and the subreddit regarding almost every single individual challenge. 

And I agree with certain improvements to it, sure.  The issue I've been responding to over the last couple of pages is when it appears to me that someone's biggest complaint with Nightwave is the idea that time limited events are predatory and part of a nefarious plot by the video game industry.  I support the introduction of special events and related rewards, I'm supportive of a system where people have content that changes over the course of time so we never truly run out of it, and I will continue to support that.  Anyone who disagrees on the basis that they don't play the game much, well, doesn't play the game much.  They got ten weeks to take part in it, they don't need to be catered to.  And anyone who disagrees on the basis that an event in a video game affects their mental wellbeing needs to see a therapist, not the feedback forums.

[Somi_xD]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Steel_Rook:

While that's true, game design often works against it and DE have a really bad habit of undercutting their own content. Fortuna was the perfect example of this. I personally don't like Fortuna, or this game's general approach to Open Worlds. However, for several months in a row, everything new DE added was gated behind Fortuna. This gave me two options. I could either keep ignoring Fortuna and miss out on what look like REALLY awesome new additions (the Archwing Launcher has been a godsend!), or I could jump into the content bottleneck to start grinding. Neither solution is good.

Reward systems are designed to provide incentive and modulate player behaviour. DE's approach to reward systems is to gate all of the new rewards behind all of the new content as a means of pushing players through said content. They create their own content bottleneck. And mind you, the polar opposite isn't any better. Nightwave Season 1 tried to push everyone into doing everything and the result was the same - players feeling compelled to play content they don't like.

I'm of the opinion that most or all of the rewards should be earnable from most or all of the content. Maybe not at the same rate, maybe not with the same efficiency, but earnable nonetheless. I hated farming bosses for Warframe components. I hated farming Profit-Taker bounties for Systems, I hated farming the Ropalolyst for Wisp... But I did all of those things anyway. It didn't have a positive impact on my desire to keep coming back, though NOT having to do any of that does "feel good" at least. Being able to earn any of the above running other missions would have been nice and helped stave off burnout. And if it ends up with some people playing the same few "optimal" missions, then so be it. Let people play what they enjoy, I say.

Yeah - the Open World approach doesn't feel right to me as well.
I really had problems getting into PoE, Fortuna was abit better.
Oh yeah Archwing Launchers are pure GOLD, and the K-drive is  cool too.
But for the K-Drives... they are to clunky for Warframe.
(More Fluid use in general, possiblity to attack with K-drives and maybe using Melee on them, PvP in form of Racing etc.)

In general, Warframe did become so fast over the time, it becomes harder and harder to enjoy it.
And with the PoE and Fortuna are more of a slower paced type of content, it bites each other.
All syndicates are artificially slowed down through daily standing limits.
To me Warframe sometimes feels like a F2P Mobile Game.

Ah, i don't really wanna have this conversation xD, that's already enough to burn me out - just thinking about all the annoying grind and stuff...

[Somi_xD]

vor 37 Minuten schrieb Steel_Rook:

a Weekly Standing Cap

This over Daily Standing Caps for all syndicates. (Even if i dislike those Caps - but there are not many other solutions for Warframe)
This daily Cap BS is really annoying, and it's forcing you to get daily into the game.
There are days i don't want(or don't have the time) to play warframe, because i play or do something else.

Weekly Stading Caps would ease up, so many things for many players.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Somi_xD