Why I Won't be Buying Atlas Prime Access

[tychondus]

Is there a TLDR version of this? that wall of text is frightening.

[Sevek7]

10 hours ago, Cubewano said:

They really should just bring in the players power ceiling, it isn't like our lower level performance is the problem with the games balance/gameplay, it's just how high we can scale from it and how easily even. We have to be honest with that nobody needs to kind of power levels we can currently achieve in the game, casual or not, and it isn't really doing anyone favors either unless you're a min maxer prepping for the most efficient farming which is exactly the sort DE wouldn't want to cater to. New/Casual players don't benefit from veterans being able to wipe maps in instants, it just forces them out of play, and hardcore/competitive players clearly don't get their difficulty standard from our over powered state of being, just hollow meta victories over trivialized game systems. There used to be a time where the biggest controversies over game balance were just the latest frame rebalance, otherwise the most of the playerbase was satisfied with the range of difficulty present in the game, now it feels like every other day the community is at each others throats over the state of the games balance, I have to believe there is a healthier range to be at than what we have now because we were at it at least once upon a time. 

Yes! I agree with every thing you've said here. I fell in love with the game as a new player relying on shield regen with no healing capability, taking cover when shields go down and re-engaging when back to full strength. The game is wonderfully challenging and balanced for players as they go through the star chart (I've recently made a new account to experience this again, and am having a blast!) 

I've experienced what you mentioned about veterans wiping maps. Often I bring under-appreciated frames that I love and weapons I enjoy the feel of despite them not being very powerful. In solo missions this is fine, but in public missions you'll almost always encounter a nuke frame that leaves you with nothing to do, or a maiming strike macro person who not only wipes the map but also looks ridiculous while doing so - thus breaking immersion. You're right that these "victories" feel extremely hollow and unrewarding, which is the complete opposite of what I felt as a new player going through the star chart. 

We can only hope that our feedback will help DE make decisions that will either bring down our power level (in perhaps certain endgame modes, specific missions, etc...) or add a new challenge that will meet us at our current power level (this may be impossible.) 

Thanks for your response 🙂 

[Sevek7]

10 hours ago, tychondus said:

Is there a TLDR version of this? that wall of text is frightening.

Ah yes, happy to provide:

TLDR:

1) PvE content is trivial if you have focus schools, arcanes, maxed mods, etc...

2) Easy-to-use weapons consistently overpower weapons that require skill.

3) PvP is necessary for a healthy community, because without it seasoned players will constantly need new PvE content, hence the complaints of "content drought."

Some rough suggestions included in order to be constructive, but mostly hoping to draw attention to these issues in the hopes that developers will keep them in mind when moving forward.

[Oberick]

11 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Right, DE should absolutely not make the game harder across the board, for everyone. But does that mean that there should exist no content to challenge the seasoned players? I hate to repeat myself since clearly my points aren't getting through, but here is a quote from my previous statement:

So please stop mischaracterizing what I'm saying. I'm not saying every aspect of the game should be made harder, far from it! I'm just saying that there's room for all the current content and content to challenge seasoned players. 

However, you are right that a successful business model exists where veteran players are hemorrhaged due to a lack of challenging content so long as the influx of new players is high enough such that the net gain is still positive. This business model is not healthy for the relationship between developers and players, so let's please dispense with this idea right now. If DE agreed with you and flat out said that dedicated players should just quit because the game is designed for newer players, I think there would be uproar - or at least I hope so, perhaps there would be celebration instead 😞

I'm not mischaracterizing what you are saying, I'm trying to point out to you that you are contradicting yourself.  You say you want more challenge but when avenues for increasing the difficulty are pointed out to you that already exist in game you keep saying "That's not the difficulty I want!".  If they just added achievements for using only pistols,etc on the Eidolons while using X warframe and x mods that would constitute adding content for the hardcores and aside from the achievement you can already attempt that and yet you refuse to.  You could however post pics of it online if you really needed the recognition part of it though.

 

 

 

[(PSN)wildkat1987]

Dude, this post sucks, nobody cares about your rant. Don't wanna buy a prime access? then don't, nobody will punish you for not buying it. Also, buying a prime access is idiotic, when you can buy the ACCESORIES PACK, get the sweet syandanas, armor sets, cosmetics AND use the plat to buy the frames and gear (in case you don't like farming them) 

 

 

[Sevek7]

4 hours ago, Oberick said:

I'm not mischaracterizing what you are saying, I'm trying to point out to you that you are contradicting yourself.  You say you want more challenge but when avenues for increasing the difficulty are pointed out to you that already exist in game you keep saying "That's not the difficulty I want!".  If they just added achievements for using only pistols,etc on the Eidolons while using X warframe and x mods that would constitute adding content for the hardcores and aside from the achievement you can already attempt that and yet you refuse to.  You could however post pics of it online if you really needed the recognition part of it though.

 

 

 

Please replace "That's not the difficulty I want!" with "That's great and I enjoy that type of difficulty, but seasoned players want more." I have said several times that I employ the method you've mentioned to increase the difficulty, and enjoy doing so. I'm not sure how many times I have to state that self-handicap should not be necessary to provide challenge. The fact that you equate this with "That's not the difficulty I want!" is mischaracterizing what I'm saying.

Oh, nice job on that last sentence. You demand evidence so I provide pictures, then use the fact that I provided pictures to prove that I post pictures since I "need recognition." I fell for your trap, and I feel stupid for doing so.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Sevek7
Changed a "do" to "so" as was intended

[Sevek7]

2 hours ago, (PS4)wildkat1987 said:

Dude, this post sucks, nobody cares about your rant. Don't wanna buy a prime access? then don't, nobody will punish you for not buying it. Also, buying a prime access is idiotic, when you can buy the ACCESORIES PACK, get the sweet syandanas, armor sets, cosmetics AND use the plat to buy the frames and gear (in case you don't like farming them) 

 

 

Please don't confuse "rant" with constructive criticism. This is a section of the forum for feedback, this is exactly what you should expect to find here. If you don't want to read constructive criticism, that's fine, but then you're in the wrong place.

Buying prime access is not idiotic if you do it to support a company that makes things you enjoy. Pulling back your support when that company no longer caters to you is a reasonable action. If I like cheese but not bread, should I keep buying products from a company that stops making cheese and now only makes bread? I think that would be a silly choice! I think this is a fun analogy 🙂 

Edited October 6, 2019 by Sevek7
There was a weird font issue, fixed now, none of the text was changed.

[Oberick]

9 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Please replace "That's not the difficulty I want!" with "That's great and I enjoy that type of difficulty, but seasoned players want more." I have said several times that I employ the method you've mentioned to increase the difficulty, and enjoy doing so. I'm not sure how many times I have to state that self-handicap should not be necessary to provide challenge. The fact that you equate this with "That's not the difficulty I want!" is mischaracterizing what I'm saying.

Oh, nice job on that last sentence. You demand evidence so I provide pictures, then use the fact that I provided pictures to prove that I post pictures since I "need recognition." I fell for your trap, and I feel stupid for doing so.

Again you are not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not insulting you for showing pics I asked for I'm telling you that if all that if the difference with hardcore content is whether or not you get recognition for it with an achievement then you can easily do that with pictures and save them from implementing the achievement.

You can't give someone at your level any other reward because at that point any mods and stuff are already as powerful as you can get them and giving you anything good would only make the game even more trivial for you. And any cosmetic rewards would be time spent designing something for less than a thousand people and they are already working their artists to the bone. 

And the fact of the matter is we already have handicap stuff in the game with sorties and nightmare modes.  Would you be ok with them implementing an even harsher handicap system to make things harder for you? If so then why can't you just do it yourself when the game already lets you? What do you "need" for you to consider something content for you?

[Sevek7]

9 hours ago, Oberick said:

Again you are not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not insulting you for showing pics I asked for I'm telling you that if all that if the difference with hardcore content is whether or not you get recognition for it with an achievement then you can easily do that with pictures and save them from implementing the achievement.

You can't give someone at your level any other reward because at that point any mods and stuff are already as powerful as you can get them and giving you anything good would only make the game even more trivial for you. And any cosmetic rewards would be time spent designing something for less than a thousand people and they are already working their artists to the bone. 

And the fact of the matter is we already have handicap stuff in the game with sorties and nightmare modes.  Would you be ok with them implementing an even harsher handicap system to make things harder for you? If so then why can't you just do it yourself when the game already lets you? What do you "need" for you to consider something content for you?

I appreciate you not insulting me for showing pics 🙂, and I apologize for misunderstanding your point there. I think I understand it now: 

"if all that if the difference with hardcore content is whether or not you get recognition for it with an achievement then you can easily do that with pictures and save them from implementing the achievement."

Have people really suggested that challenge = recognition? That challenge = achievements? I haven't spent a very long time on these forums but that would go totally against the type of challenge that I want. I don't want achievements, recognition, notoriety, etc... I just want enemies that can hurt me, require me to use strategy, take cover, etc... instead of just barreling into them with no risk and just mashing buttons for a second or two and then winning a boring, hollow victory. You're right that if such a challenge was implemented, there would be a question about what rewards could be included. At this point, I would be perfectly happy with no rewards at all. You're right that designing new cosmetics is hard because the everyone at DE are constantly being worked to the bone. I would however suggest that this is at least partially their own fault, since they neglect to work on PvP. PvP in games is almost always the endgame for players who have everything from the PvE content. Without fun, inclusive, and balanced PvP, players will constantly complain about "content drought." These complaints then force them to work so extremely hard to put out that content. This is precisely why I consider a healthy PvP scene to be one of the indicators of a healthy game.

Let me take a moment to tackle another point you make here. You're right that it's hard to justify spending development time on things for only a small segment of the playerbase. But let's ask for a moment why that segment is small. Why are there so few seasoned players who want a challenge? I think it's because typically a warframer leaves the game because of a lack of challenge. So you see the problem is cyclical: The lack of challenge causes seasoned players to leave, then there aren't enough seasoned players to justify making a challenge, which causes more seasoned players to leave, etc... As I said before, there exists a business model (cf. pyramid scheme) where if you cater everything towards newer players, you can negate the disappearance of veterans by an equally large influx of new players. This will result in seasoned players making posts just like mine in the feedback section. I'm not saying that this is the model DE wants, in fact they have expressly said that they do not want this, and that they want to make challenge for seasoned players. My major complaint is that they have been saying this for years and yet they keep doing the opposite.

Yes! A thousand times yes! Give us the harshest handicaps you can think of! I'm okay with my builds and tactics being sabotaged to create challenge, I just don't want it to be self-sabotage. If I fail a missions when self-sabotaged, I will always say "Well, I could have done it if I hadn't sabotaged myself." If I fail because the game forces that sabotage, then I'll say "Well, I guess I need to get better to beat this challenge!" This is an important distinction. That being said, it would be nice if one day we could have a challenge that meets us at our most powerful, but that might be impossible, so I'm happy to settle for the harsh, enforced handicaps.

 

[DLOArceus]

Should've changed your avatar before making this thread, considering that frame trivializes the game much more than everything you posted.

[Sevek7]

5 hours ago, DLOArceus said:

Should've changed your avatar before making this thread, considering that frame trivializes the game much more than everything you posted.

That's true, but she looks fantastic, and the glyph is fabulous 😉