Why I Won't be Buying Atlas Prime Access

[Sevek7]

21 minutes ago, Zyga21 said:

if you're playing a high defense and your only answer is to make your def target invuln for a few seconds and to heal it, you're going to have more issues than you think, with how much more damage the enemies are deal that also means that the def objective will be taking more damage, unless you spend the entire time giving it invlun then you're not really doing anything, you're just repairing what damage has been done. regardless this is another scaling mechanic. it's great to have as a tool for players who like playing high end content, but it does not ensure you always win.

as I stated before this is a terrible idea, it limits us to playing in the way that you think is appropriate, as a choice this is ok because it gives us a choice to play this way, but to have it for everyone always, is not.

great, and other people like using the kitguns, to each their own.

yes, you're given these mods as choices so that you can play the game in different ways. and it's hard to say that there's a theme of the game, there are many different ways you can play it, and I think inaros is possibly one of the furthest away from being a space ninja, he's a space deity of Egyptian origin, god of never dying, adaptation lets him take more hits, it enables him to play longer. it's Fine not everyone is ash and that's ok. There's nothing wrong with allowing players to be walls, yes the game encourages space ninja play, but it should also allow you to play other ways too.

Some of the things you could think about as what goes into buying atlas PA is the disruption game mode extension and gauss and grendal and dog days etc, they've been doing stuff. I would see it more fit to "punish" them if you hated all the content of this past PA cycle, that makes more sense than withholding support until you get what you want, then it just seems like you're impatient for something. That's why I get that impression. you're punishing when theyre doing something good because you only want X thing later. They have been putting in a lot of work into the game in many different ways. If you don't support them, that's your choice, but I strongly disagree with it because it makes you look like you're throwing a fit because you didn't get what you wanted.

venting isn't the same as feedback. if instead you laid out your issues with the game without threatening them with not paying it would seem more like feedback than just someone who's angry about XYZ not being prio #1 of DE. My suggestion for a place to vent is something like general chat in game, it's great because you can be as outraged as you want and have discussion about it, and then later come back to the feedback forums to post actually constructive criticism of what's going on. There's a lack of critical thought in your post because it doesn't think past the first step for most of it, you're only thinking of yourself (mostly) in your original post, you need to understand it's a game for more people than just you.

 

I don't mean any disrespect, it's just that you clearly haven't come here with feedback, you came here guns blazing demanding answers for why you don't have your shiny new toy.

Okay, it seems I've failed to convey my points correctly, since it appears you've understood a completely different thing. This is my fault, not yours. Let's try to correct it now.

You're right that of course nobody wants to play a mobile defense or excavation spending the entire time vazarin dashing the objective, but it is possible (excavation arbitration meta used to be exactly this, combined with magus lockdown to kill all the enemies nearby the excavator.) In that case, as long as you kept dashing every few seconds, it did  ensure that you always win (and still does, although nobody does arbitration excavation anymore.) 

As for the HP gating, I agreed with you that it's not a very good idea, at least not for the current state of the game. The idea was to at least provide some constructive feedback instead of just complaints. The HP gating at least solves one problem, but you're right that it creates many more, and thus it would either need to be refined or changed in some totally different way to be usable. I don't think changing the way tenno are damaged necessarily "limits us to playing in the way that you think is appropriate." I'm sorry to have somehow conveyed that I'm trying to force everyone to play the game in the same way that I do, and I can't find where I wrote anything of the sort, but nevertheless it appears this is how I've come across. Please understand that this is never what I meant. 

Lex vs. Kitguns: Yes of course, to each their own, I never attempted to state that everyone should love the same weapons that I do. Again, I'm not sure how I managed to convey this, but please understand that it was never my intention to sound like I think everyone should be forced to play with only the things I like. PS: I also like kitguns too! Including the catchmoon!

Okay, on the mods I'll concede, you're right. Since they're entirely optional we can't assume that players will change their playstyle simply because a certain mod works better in that particular style. 

You're right that my decision to buy or not buy the prime access will likely be interpreted as a statement about the recent changes. And honestly I'm very happy with Gauss and the disruption expansion. So, since my decision to not buy the current prime access is not actually a statement about these recent things, I thought perhaps the best thing to do is outline in a forum post the long-standing issues that I think could deserve some attention. However, apparently I've simply come across as entirely elitist and just interested in forcing others to start playing the game exactly like me. 

"Throwing a fit because you don't get what you wanted" is an interesting statement. In a twisted way I suppose it's true, but the choice of words is a little insulting, perhaps a better choice is "I'm choosing to not support DE this cycle and I am laying out my reasons why, with suggestions, in hopes that my choices will not go misinterpreted."

You're right that venting and feedback are two different things, I apologize for conforming to your choice of words. I think it's obvious that what my post did was lay out some problems (you can call this venting if you really think it's necessary to ascribe a negative to it) and provide suggestions to begin the process of how to address them. If this is not the very definition of constructive feedback, then I don't know what is. 

As for the "lack of critical thought." I think that laying out a series of perceived problems and providing suggestions is quite logical. You're right that I don't think much past the first step in the suggestions, but that is purposeful - not incidental. I have no idea how to actually introduce challenge into a game where you and your objectives can be made invulnerable at the push of a button, the whole idea here was just to get the ideas in the open. I'm well aware that all of my suggestions are completely un-implementable in the stated form. This does not mean there is a lack of critical thought. 

"Only thinking of myself." Of course the game is for more people than just me, again I'm not sure how I conveyed that I thought the opposite. I'm starting to guess that you're reading between the lines and finding things that aren't there. Suggesting a balance between skill and reward is not some hyper-selfish thing that proves I'm only thinking of myself. 

Demanding answers to what exactly? Sure I put some rhetorical questions in my original post, but I think that asking rhetorical questions and "demanding answers" are quite different things. And what shiny new toy? Am I begging for something shiny? I don't understand these things you say. 

I also mean no disrespect, obviously we're both here because we care about the game and want it to thrive, both as a hobby and as a community. I simply worry that you saw my critical post and began ascribing extra negatives to all my statements. Please understand that all the criticisms I put forth come from a place of love, and wanting the game to be as good as it can be!

 

[Sevek7]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Saint Nasim said:

You make a good point about the under-development of certain modes. Conclave in particular. The last balance pass conclave got was sometime in February, if I remember correctly. I agree with you about the difficulty of recent PvE content too. It is just becoming a sort of quasi gear check. Do you have x amp to do y effect to kill z enemy? If so, good. If not? You don't get invited by other players to complete the mission. Even though youd be able to kill y enemy just fine with another amp.

The community either complains that the content is too easy and they blow through it too fast (the pve content) or that it is too hard and it will take them forever to complete (conclave syndicate). Neither of those is actually case. It seems to me that it is just a problem with the attitude of the community.

Thanks for your response! Yes, conclave is in desperate need of some balance currently, hopefully they will take a look soon 🙂. Yeah, a lot of the PvE content is a bit of a gear check, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I think it becomes more of a problem when people get hooked on certain metas and assume everything else just sucks (you're right this might be an attitude issue!). It would be cool if there was PvE content that went beyond gear check, maybe something that rewarded our ability to use the mobility system to avoid enemies and pull off cool maneuvers! Yeah the conclave syndicate can be hard for people to rank up depending on the time of day they play. I know on PC it's basically just the few hours after the daily reset that you can consistently find a group, not sure how it is on consoles. Hopefully that will change one day!

[Sevek7]

54 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

As was pointed out numerous times by myself and others here, difficulty level is subjective. What is so hard to understand about that? Get off your high horse. You are not the standard that difficulty level is judged by.

Of course difficulty level is subjective, when did I ever say it wasn't? Naturally, a player who has not yet unlocked the operator will not have access to the "panic button" that I mentioned, and the focus schools & arcanes all provide a massive boost to survivability. Yes, I'm not the standard that difficulty level should be judged by. But I think warframe should cater to players on many difficulty levels, including the players who want a lot of challenge. Obviously my original post was in reference to the difficulty level felt by seasoned players who know the systems, have focus schools ranked up, etc... I specifically mentioned arcanes, so I think it's clear that I wasn't talking about the difficulty felt by new players. I even specifically included an anecdote about how it was for me as a newer player, enjoying the challenge at that level, and then talked about how it feels for a seasoned player when that difficulty is gone. I'm sorry to have somehow conveyed that I think all difficulty should suit me, I'm not sure exactly how I did that. I tried specifically to say in my suggestions "Missions with..." not "All missions should have..." I thought this would be enough to make it clear. Thanks for pointing out this error, next time I will include more information to make that clearer.

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

4 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Obvious Suggestions: Operator cooldown,

Is that obvious? That doesn't sound obvious to me. In fact, I think that's going a bit too far. Operator skills are a foundation of the game right now.

4 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Obvious Suggestions: or certain missions where the operator is not usable. Missions with modifiers like: all focus schools' abilities temporarily unavailable, or all arcane effects negated. Missions where all mods retain only 20% of their effects, reduced weapon / ability damage, reduced armor, increased enemy durability.

I don't mind the idea of some sort of special challenge mode where the player is reduced in their stats. And I appreciate the fact that you have specified "certain missions." Because there are some people who would want to see these nerfs applied to the whole game. And I think that's big a mistake.

But there also needs to be content where the difficulty of the game comes to meet us right at our current skill set. Without nerfs. The immediate response I usually get to a comment like that is something along the lines of: "that's impossible, we're just too powerful". I don't think that's true. Because the kind of content I'm talking about doesn't need to feel impossible to do. If the content is doable with a higher level of effort or team coordination, that just sounds fun. We don't need to be dying or failing missions constantly for the content to be better.

However, I still feel that DE should move away from the current hoard style of the game. There should probably be fewer enemies on screen that are tougher and more interesting. As opposed to a lot of enemies that really don't matter. The latter predisposes the current nuking meta that we are in.

[Sevek7]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

Is that obvious? That doesn't sound obvious to me. In fact, I think that's going a bit too far. Operator skills are a foundation of the game right now.

I don't mind the idea of some sort of special challenge mode where the player is reduced in their stats. And I appreciate the fact that you have specified "certain missions." Because there are some people who would want to see these nerfs applied to the whole game. And I think that's big a mistake.

But there also needs to be content where the difficulty of the game comes to meet us right at our current skill set. Without nerfs. The immediate response I usually get to a comment like that is something along the lines of: "that's impossible, we're just too powerful". I don't think that's true. Because the kind of content I'm talking about doesn't need to feel impossible to do. If the content is doable with a higher level of effort or team coordination, that just sounds fun. We don't need to be dying or failing missions constantly for the content to be better.

However, I still feel that DE should move away from the current hoard style of the game. There should probably be fewer enemies on screen that are tougher and more interesting. As opposed to a lot of enemies that really don't matter. The latter predisposes the current nuking meta that we are in.

Thanks for your response! You make some great points. You're right that operator cooldown would be seriously problematic, especially for eidolon fights! It's only obvious in the sense that it's the obvious way to remove the "panic button" situation, but it's certainly not obvious as a change for the game as a whole. Glad you like the idea of a challenge mode where some of our stats are reduced, I think that would be a lot of fun. It oculd be especially interesting if the reductions are periodic and change every minute or so (This is sort of what they did with the disruption conduits, but the punishments were ultimately not really felt.) 

I would also love content where we are met at our level of power, and it made me laugh because the first thing I thought was "that's impossible, we're just too powerful" and then I read you stating that's the usual response! I think it's always going to be difficult to create content where the tenno will be killable, but perhaps some special bosses that we need to kill in a certain time limit, and they have some huge EHP with cycling vulnerabilities or something. That could be really fun! (Sadly I think they would have to be status immune, otherwise it would just be back to shredding with condition overload - but maybe with melee 3.0 they will change how condition overload works!) 

I agree with you that, although the horde style is fun, it would be a refreshing change of pace to have fewer enemies that are tougher and more interesting. This has already happened with the void sabotage where you need to shoot those two grineer on their backs, and also with sentients. So, hopefully this continues and with the new war we'll get something like that!

[Loxyen]

6 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Example 3: Melee weapons. I know that melee 3.0 is coming so this might not be relevant in a few months, but still it serves as a good example of the issues I'm desribing. Melee is the strongest weapon class due to the incredible mods (Blood Rush, Maiming Strike, Condition Overload, Weeping Wounds) and a combo counter further increasing damage. Add that to the fact that they can hit entire groups of enemies at once. Firstly, short range melee weapons require far more skill to use, but typically they actually have less damage potential than the high range ones. So, this is another example of some weapons being just so good that they negate the usability of 80% of the other weapons. Next, the argument for why melee weapons should be so much stronger is typically that melee playstyles are riskier since you're going toe-to-toe with the enemies in tight spaces. This is simply not true, if you engage a group of enemies at a distance then you receive all their incoming fire. If you engage them in melee, then typically several enemies get stuck behind each other, obscuring each others' vision, and stop attacking you. Also, melee is highly mobile, so you are in fact less likely to take a hit while swinging your melee weapon than you are while aim gliding pulling off skilled shots with a ranged weapon. Therefore, melee is actually the safest and easiest playstyle, and the game rewards you for choosing the least-skill-required method.

don't forget the stupid autoblock 😞

[Sevek7]

10 minutes ago, Loxyen said:

don't forget the stupid autoblock 😞

You don't like being forced to aim glide when you don't want to? That's the best feeling ever! 

[Loxyen]

3 hours ago, Walkampf said:

As was pointed out numerous times by myself and others here, difficulty level is subjective. What is so hard to understand about that? Get off your high horse. You are not the standard that difficulty level is judged by.

Bruh whats your issue?

edit: Chill

Edited October 5, 2019 by Loxyen

[Loxyen]

40 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

You don't like being forced to aim glide when you don't want to? That's the best feeling ever! 

ngl at least since the Altar update a lot of things about ones utility took a couple hits. Asap I go higher apm and try to move as I used to a lot of actions like jumps, melee, shots, weapon swaps, rolls, wall interaction and so on gets reversed/canceled (weapons swaps for example), ignored, delayed or merges and completely bugs out like that for example:

Spoiler

I was shooting at Sang with the Dera and once he was down I swapped weapons and double jumped. Tried to air melee to carry on my momentum and reach the ammo boxes in one go or maybe hit the other dude. However the melee command got delayed by a delayed shooting command from when I was shooting with the Dera. So it shot first. Because there wasn't any melee yet I turned around to have my crosshair on that other dude. As soon as I was about to aim/zoom at him I was in reach for a wall latch and (I guess) combined with my momentum and the delayed melee command it did a crazy melee wall attack.

but defo that 2.9 melee system has a lot to do with many of those

It is extremely discouraging when the mechanics, one of the major reasons you love the game for break... beside the obvious balancing issues.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Loxyen

[Grahark]

Obviously a Troll Post. Please Do Not Feed the Trolls. 

[Oberick]

What the heck do you want them to do? ban certain mod combos or block mods from certain weapons?  Everything is connected you mess with one thing it ends up completely destroying the viability of 20 other things.  How many people do you really think would be able to take out Hydrolysts without certain setups? Show me a video of you taking one down with a group of Excaliburs and some Bazas cause if you are able to pull that off you are probably in the top .0000000000000000002% of players and no amount of change they do will be hard enough for you. 

Almost every incidence of people complaining about the difficulty are those who read/watch boss strategies and cookie cutter builds instead of actually playing and learning the game themselves.

[Sevek7]

3 hours ago, Loxyen said:

ngl at least since the Altar update a lot of things about ones utility took a couple hits. Asap I go higher apm and try to move as I used to a lot of actions like jumps, melee, shots, weapon swaps, rolls, wall interaction and so on gets reversed/canceled (weapons swaps for example), ignored, delayed or merges and completely bugs out like that for example:

  Hide contents

I was shooting at Sang with the Dera and once he was down I swapped weapons and double jumped. Tried to air melee to carry on my momentum and reach the ammo boxes in one go or maybe hit the other dude. However the melee command got delayed by a delayed shooting command from when I was shooting with the Dera. So it shot first. Because there wasn't any melee yet I turned around to have my crosshair on that other dude. As soon as I was about to aim/zoom at him I was in reach for a wall latch and (I guess) combined with my momentum and the delayed melee command it did a crazy melee wall attack.

but defo that 2.9 melee system has a lot to do with many of those

It is extremely discouraging when the mechanics, one of the major reasons you love the game for break... beside the obvious balancing issues.

Ah yeah I've noticed a few of those weird things recently too. Like slam attacks taking you way off to the side instead of where you're aiming. I've also noticed if you air melee and then press aim to switch back to a weapon and shoot at someone, you'll get a bullet off and then the other player's bullet will force you back into melee mode and stuck in aim glide for a moment. Things like this really mess with the fluidity!

[.Ariano.]

OP,

First off, we've never met, so Hello!.  I had this long post written up with the intent of hopefully providing some constructive feedback on what you initially posted.  Missed page 2 where you made some clarifications in response to Zyga21.  Sort of torpedoed what I was going to type but I did at least waned to let you know that it was being read by others and you do make a couple of good points.  Conclave isn't something that I play, but any time PvP gets put into the game, it's super important that skill is rewarded and the 'easy solutions' are dealt with.  

I could tell that you were pretty passionate about how you felt on those topics.  I'd add only one suggestion that pretty much echo's Zyga21 in that you should contact the devs via the right forum section and make some recommendations.  Even if some of them might not work as intended, your suggestions might lead to something that could work and ultimately improve the player experience.  To add to that, maybe get into a dialog with them over your ideas BEFORE you beat them over the head with the 'no money for you' stick lol.  You've put a lot of thought into your suggestions and I think it deserves to be seen in a constructive light.  Some games certainly feel like it's devs vs players, but from everything that I've seen on video from DE, I think ultimately, they get that the players are an active part of this process.  Treat them like partners and I think you'll get a better overall response.

 

Good luck, and good hunting, Tenno! 🙂

.Ariano.

[Sevek7]

43 minutes ago, Oberick said:

What the heck do you want them to do? ban certain mod combos or block mods from certain weapons?  Everything is connected you mess with one thing it ends up completely destroying the viability of 20 other things.  How many people do you really think would be able to take out Hydrolysts without certain setups? Show me a video of you taking one down with a group of Excaliburs and some Bazas cause if you are able to pull that off you are probably in the top .0000000000000000002% of players and no amount of change they do will be hard enough for you. 

Almost every incidence of people complaining about the difficulty are those who read/watch boss strategies and cookie cutter builds instead of actually playing and learning the game themselves.

You're right, there will likely always be someone who thinks every challenge is not hard enough. But surely there can exist a middle ground where both challenging and easy content can exist at once. I'm not saying we should ban things game-wide, but perhaps only in certain modes. This is already the case in the game: Gear items are banned in ESO, operator is banned for anyone who hasn't done the story quests, certain weapon types are banned in some sortie missions, and there are a variety of nightmare and other sortie modifiers to also make the game more challenging. So I don't really believe your statement that messing with one thing ruins the viability of 20 other things, since clearly that already exists in the game without breaking things. 

Doing hydrolyst with baza/Excalibur sounds pretty fun though, we should try that some day 😄

This last thing you said I think is very important: "Almost every incidence of people complaining about the difficulty are those who read/watch boss strategies and cookie cutter builds instead of actually playing and learning the game themselves." You're right, if people can make cookie cutter builds without knowing the game systems and actual strategies and still perform at a level where they complain the game is too easy, then the game truly must be too easy.

 

[Sevek7]

4 minutes ago, .Ariano. said:

OP,

First off, we've never met, so Hello!.  I had this long post written up with the intent of hopefully providing some constructive feedback on what you initially posted.  Missed page 2 where you made some clarifications in response to Zyga21.  Sort of torpedoed what I was going to type but I did at least waned to let you know that it was being read by others and you do make a couple of good points.  Conclave isn't something that I play, but any time PvP gets put into the game, it's super important that skill is rewarded and the 'easy solutions' are dealt with.  

I could tell that you were pretty passionate about how you felt on those topics.  I'd add only one suggestion that pretty much echo's Zyga21 in that you should contact the devs via the right forum section and make some recommendations.  Even if some of them might not work as intended, your suggestions might lead to something that could work and ultimately improve the player experience.  To add to that, maybe get into a dialog with them over your ideas BEFORE you beat them over the head with the 'no money for you' stick lol.  You've put a lot of thought into your suggestions and I think it deserves to be seen in a constructive light.  Some games certainly feel like it's devs vs players, but from everything that I've seen on video from DE, I think ultimately, they get that the players are an active part of this process.  Treat them like partners and I think you'll get a better overall response.

 

Good luck, and good hunting, Tenno! 🙂

.Ariano.

Hello to you too Ariano!

I'm very glad you think some of the ideas have merit (even if they are currently in a very rough form). You're 100% right that I hope the message of this thread reaches DE in a constructive way, and it is not at all meant to be a "beating over the head" thing. I honestly thought this was the correct place to put feedback with the intention that devs would read it, I'm not sure of another avenue for starting a dialogue as you mention. (If there is such an avenue, please inform me! I'll happily convey the message more directly than in the forum setting if that works better.) You're right that almost all of my suggestions will have unintended consequences that will make them problematic at best, but my hope was simply to highlight some of the problems faced by seasoned players and I included suggestions so it could at the very least be constructive criticism. That sure did backfire in a big way with some of the people who replied! 

My intent with bringing prime access sales (or lack thereof) into the discussion was never meant to be in an aggressive way. I imagined the DE team perhaps noticing a slump in sales and not understanding the cause, and so I wanted this here specifically so that the reason might be known for why some players might have skipped out on buying recently. For all I know, the sales might skyrocket and there will be no reason for DE to consider making any changes for seasoned players, at least not as a result of a lack of sales. I think you're right, everything I have seen shows that the devs care a lot about the players and take feedback seriously, if that wasn't the case then I probably would never have bothered making a post in the first place. The constructive criticism I presented comes from a place of deep love for the game, and it seems I failed to convey that properly. I have regret for this mistake.

Thanks for your kind response!

[.Ariano.]

Sevek7,

I'm pretty new here, and I haven't gone through all of the different areas to see if this is the best place or not.  It IS a feedback area, so I would suspect you're in the neighborhood, if not exactly where something like this goes.  I guess in my own way, I'm pretty passionate with regards to my opinion on what they've built so far.  I suspect that if they read the entire thread, they'll get your intent.  I saw the title of the thread and went in with a perceived notion that it was going to be a roast.  That might have colored what I read a bit, but I could see that it wasn't a pointless 'its not fair' post and that you put some thought into what you were saying and thinking.

For my part, I haven't bought the Prime Access either.  Not that I'm not willing to support DE monetarily.  They've gotten some purchases from me and I plan to make more.  I guess Atlas Prime feels expensive (I think it's exactly on par with the other Prime Access offers in the recent past) in comparison to the Prime Vault.  For newish players like me, I have 4 primes I think?, so the return of the primes via the vault work for me now and don't hurt my head so much to drop 60 every so often into DE's coffers.  I think if they didn't keep updating or creating I might feel different, but 60 ever couple of months or so seems like a decent investment on something I look forward to coming home from work and getting into for awhile.  

Well me, Good luck on your suggestions with DE, and I'll see you around the forums, I'm sure o7

.Ariano. 

[Oberick]

3 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

You're right, there will likely always be someone who thinks every challenge is not hard enough. But surely there can exist a middle ground where both challenging and easy content can exist at once. I'm not saying we should ban things game-wide, but perhaps only in certain modes. This is already the case in the game: Gear items are banned in ESO, operator is banned for anyone who hasn't done the story quests, certain weapon types are banned in some sortie missions, and there are a variety of nightmare and other sortie modifiers to also make the game more challenging. So I don't really believe your statement that messing with one thing ruins the viability of 20 other things, since clearly that already exists in the game without breaking things. 

Doing hydrolyst with baza/Excalibur sounds pretty fun though, we should try that some day 😄

This last thing you said I think is very important: "Almost every incidence of people complaining about the difficulty are those who read/watch boss strategies and cookie cutter builds instead of actually playing and learning the game themselves." You're right, if people can make cookie cutter builds without knowing the game systems and actual strategies and still perform at a level where they complain the game is too easy, then the game truly must be too easy.

It doesn't mean the game is too easy it means there are certain things that are much better for one thing then it is another like rock paper scissors, A extremely high damage single target weapon is important for the Hydrolyst and its siblings but is going to be much less effective if you are clearing hundreds of mobs but an aoe or auto/semi auto would be good for them and terrible for the Hydrolyst. 

Reading about a clever use of game mechanics and copying the build for a situation does not mean the game is easy it just means in that situation you can cheese it by doing X and using Y.  Show me one setup where you can clear everything in the game easily with no worries about death then maybe you will have somewhat of a point.

And as others have pointed out challenge already exists in the game you just choose to make it easier on yourself by taking the easy way out. Why don't you choose a low rated warframe and attempt to make it viable in every possible scenario? Get a gun you like the feel or look of and use that instead of pulling out whats needed for the mission? You are playing like an elite player try playing like the 75% of players who never look up the wiki or guides.  Its like when players in games with addons complain about a boss being too easy when they use addons to show them where to stand, when to heal/cure, when to dps, when to stop dpsing etc.....

Edited October 5, 2019 by Oberick

[Sevek7]

7 hours ago, Oberick said:

It doesn't mean the game is too easy it means there are certain things that are much better for one thing then it is another like rock paper scissors, A extremely high damage single target weapon is important for the Hydrolyst and its siblings but is going to be much less effective if you are clearing hundreds of mobs but an aoe or auto/semi auto would be good for them and terrible for the Hydrolyst. 

Reading about a clever use of game mechanics and copying the build for a situation does not mean the game is easy it just means in that situation you can cheese it by doing X and using Y.  Show me one setup where you can clear everything in the game easily with no worries about death then maybe you will have somewhat of a point.

And as others have pointed out challenge already exists in the game you just choose to make it easier on yourself by taking the easy way out. Why don't you choose a low rated warframe and attempt to make it viable in every possible scenario? Get a gun you like the feel or look of and use that instead of pulling out whats needed for the mission? You are playing like an elite player try playing like the 75% of players who never look up the wiki or guides.  Its like when players in games with addons complain about a boss being too easy when they use addons to show them where to stand, when to heal/cure, when to dps, when to stop dpsing etc.....

"please remember that not all warframe players want the same things - our differing opinions don't mean that either one of us is right or wrong."

This is a quote from my original post, I think it's worth reading again. The point here is that some of us prefer the current warframe where it's all about preparation & choosing the correct loadout. With a good choice then trivializing any given content (This is your rock-paper-scissors statement). This is essentially what you stated, and it's not wrong, it's an opinion about what you want from warframe, it's valid. Personally, I prefer content where I can bring my best loadout and still be challenged, this is my opinion, it's not wrong, it's valid. You're right that I can handicap myself to provide a challenge, and often I do! But I think a good definition of a game that is too easy is specifically one where you need to handicap yourself to make it challenging. Add that to the current trend of making easy-to-use weapons more powerful than weapons that require skill, and you can see why my view of what I want from the game is being neglected. Now, of course warframe shouldn't change course and begin catering entirely to me and those who think like me, but I think there is room in the game to cater to both audiences. I think it's possible to have the current content and challenging content all in the same game. I don't think that would be a bad thing.

[Oberick]

9 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

"please remember that not all warframe players want the same things - our differing opinions don't mean that either one of us is right or wrong."

This is a quote from my original post, I think it's worth reading again. The point here is that some of us prefer the current warframe where it's all about preparation & choosing the correct loadout. With a good choice then trivializing any given content (This is your rock-paper-scissors statement). This is essentially what you stated, and it's not wrong, it's an opinion about what you want from warframe, it's valid. Personally, I prefer content where I can bring my best loadout and still be challenged, this is my opinion, it's not wrong, it's valid. You're right that I can handicap myself to provide a challenge, and often I do! But I think a good definition of a game that is too easy is specifically one where you need to handicap yourself to make it challenging. Add that to the current trend of making easy-to-use weapons more powerful than weapons that require skill, and you can see why my view of what I want from the game is being neglected. Now, of course warframe shouldn't change course and begin catering entirely to me and those who think like me, but I think there is room in the game to cater to both audiences. I think it's possible to have the current content and challenging content all in the same game. I don't think that would be a bad thing.

Even if thats the way you feel I don't believe you have truly experienced how hard the game can get. The game has a solo mode for a reason and I bet you extract relatively quickly in survival modes/defense as well and guess what the mobs keep getting harder and harder.  Show me a video of you going the distance then I'll believe you really need a challenge even if you "enjoy" cookie cutter builds and don't just do it to make the game easier for yourself.  

[Sevek7]

2 hours ago, Oberick said:

Even if thats the way you feel I don't believe you have truly experienced how hard the game can get. The game has a solo mode for a reason and I bet you extract relatively quickly in survival modes/defense as well and guess what the mobs keep getting harder and harder.  Show me a video of you going the distance then I'll believe you really need a challenge even if you "enjoy" cookie cutter builds and don't just do it to make the game easier for yourself.  

Excellent point! You're right that I extract pretty quickly in public missions because I try to stretch my legs at least every hour, so I only stay longer in solo missions where pausing is available. I'm afraid I don't have a video to show you like you asked, but I do have screenshots of going longer.

Here is an old screenshot of me extracting after a 4 hour solo survival arbitration as nekros. This was before the recent arbitration rework, so as you can see I obtained only the expected 24 vitus essence (24*10 = 240 minutes, 240 minutes *( 1 hour / 60 minutes) = 4 hours. I recall taking this screenshot because it took the 3 hours and 50 minutes to get a mod drop, so the vigorous swap shown there is the only mod drop I got in that mission, the rest was all endo & statues (This was before seeding step ephemera also I think.) I remember that I left the mission because I finally got the mod drop, there was no reason why I couldn't go further, other than the fact that I was extremely bored! The enemies were still dying fast because of strun wraith + condition overload combo. Unfortunately I don't remember now exactly what levels the enemies were, but I think we can both agree that after 4 hours we should expect strong enemies.

Here is the build I used, I'm not sure if this is a cookie cutter build that someone else has recommended. I know that usually the despoil builds go for higher range, and the shield of shadows builds usually go for higher strength. Personally, I prefer a balance between the two. Whether this is a recommended build by someone or not is in this case irrelevant, since I decided upon this build due to my own testing. I'm confident that I can design various builds for doing 4 hours and beyond in various "endgame" modes currently, I simply don't want to spend 4 hours waiting for a challenge. Especially when that challenge is still not there even after 4 hours. Again, I can obviously have a challenge anytime by handicapping myself, but I feel like self-sabotage shouldn't be necessary.

In short, please don't assume that I simply build according to some youtuber's specification, I have been playing warframe for a very long time and have what I think is detailed knowledge about the majority of the game's systems. As a result of this knowledge and building accordingly, I find the game's challenge lacking. As far as I can tell, there are two challenges worthy in the game currently: One is the solo John Prodman run (I looked through my screenshots but couldn't find proof of this, if you desire it please let me know, I will dust off my build for it and go again) and the other is conclave (which is a tonne of fun!). Ideally, the PvE content shouldn't only have a challenge in a single case, and should still provide a challenge even with a team. 

You're right that the mobs keep getting harder and harder - having more ehp and more damage, they just never reach our level. Remember, we have invulnerability and can do damage based on a % of the enemy's hp. (Don't forget the guy who did a 24 hour solo kuva survival because revenant can do both of those things without the operator.)

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by Sevek7
Changed an "all" to "both" in the last sentence in parentheses

[Oberick]

36 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Excellent point! You're right that I extract pretty quickly in public missions because I try to stretch my legs at least every hour, so I only stay longer in solo missions where pausing is available. I'm afraid I don't have a video to show you like you asked, but I do have screenshots of going longer.

Here is an old screenshot of me extracting after a 4 hour solo survival arbitration as nekros. This was before the recent arbitration rework, so as you can see I obtained only the expected 24 vitus essence (24*10 = 240 minutes, 240 minutes *( 1 hour / 60 minutes) = 4 hours. I recall taking this screenshot because it took the 3 hours and 50 minutes to get a mod drop, so the vigorous swap shown there is the only mod drop I got in that mission, the rest was all endo & statues (This was before seeding step ephemera also I think.) I remember that I left the mission because I finally got the mod drop, there was no reason why I couldn't go further, other than the fact that I was extremely bored! The enemies were still dying fast because of strun wraith + condition overload combo. Unfortunately I don't remember now exactly what levels the enemies were, but I think we can both agree that after 4 hours we should expect strong enemies.

Here is the build I used, I'm not sure if this is a cookie cutter build that someone else has recommended. I know that usually the despoil builds go for higher range, and the shield of shadows builds usually go for higher strength. Personally, I prefer a balance between the two. Whether this is a recommended build by someone or not is in this case irrelevant, since I decided upon this build due to my own testing. I'm confident that I can design various builds for doing 4 hours and beyond in various "endgame" modes currently, I simply don't want to spend 4 hours waiting for a challenge. Especially when that challenge is still not there even after 4 hours. Again, I can obviously have a challenge anytime by handicapping myself, but I feel like self-sabotage shouldn't be necessary.

In short, please don't assume that I simply build according to some youtuber's specification, I have been playing warframe for a very long time and have what I think is detailed knowledge about the majority of the game's systems. As a result of this knowledge and building accordingly, I find the game's challenge lacking. As far as I can tell, there are two challenges worthy in the game currently: One is the solo John Prodman run (I looked through my screenshots but couldn't find proof of this, if you desire it please let me know, I will dust off my build for it and go again) and the other is conclave (which is a tonne of fun!). Ideally, the PvE content shouldn't only have a challenge in a single case, and should still provide a challenge even with a team. 

You're right that the mobs keep getting harder and harder - having more ehp and more damage, they just never reach our level. Remember, we have invulnerability and can do damage based on a % of the enemy's hp. (Don't forget the guy who did a 24 hour solo kuva survival because revenant can do both of those things without the operator.)

 

 

 

Thank you.  While 4 hours is nowhere near what some people achieve you are clearly in the top.00001% and the game is too easy for you when you make specific builds.  So now you gotta ask yourself should you try to make the game more challenging for yourself when they give you the options to, or should DE spend resources making the game harder for you and the top .0001 % when 99% of players will never be at your level and any added difficulty aside from allowing you to keep going in survival and stuff will likely ruin the experience of those other players making it so players who used to be able to Sorties and Arbitrations no longer can?, or should you just quit the game and find a new one that gives you a challenge that you can't cheese out of?

[Cubewano]

3 hours ago, Oberick said:

Even if thats the way you feel I don't believe you have truly experienced how hard the game can get. The game has a solo mode for a reason and I bet you extract relatively quickly in survival modes/defense as well and guess what the mobs keep getting harder and harder.  Show me a video of you going the distance then I'll believe you really need a challenge even if you "enjoy" cookie cutter builds and don't just do it to make the game easier for yourself.  

The only way to make this game difficult is through extreme levels of restriction from a majority of the games systems, and that is not a reasonable request to ask of someone just for them to be allowed to have an engaging combat encounter, and it's certainly not sustainable for players looking for such experiences. Gaming is about having a good time and having fun, at no point should it be a sacrificial effort to get through to get to such a point. Having to jump through half a dozen unpleasant loops and cutting yourself off from major aspects of the game and limiting your content options is not a real (or well meaning) solution to the grievances presented here. 

What is an enjoyable non-extensive non-isolating method for a person to find difficulty/engaging combat in this game? And if such a method exists, how much content does it leave those who would pursue it with? The end goal for any solution we should be seeking is that it will leave the person (OP presently) in question with a enjoyable and satisfying experience for their time with the game, if it can't meet that standard it's not a real solution.  

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by Cubewano

[Sevek7]

7 minutes ago, Oberick said:

Thank you.  While 4 hours is nowhere near what some people achieve you are clearly in the top.00001% and the game is too easy for you when you make specific builds.  So now you gotta ask yourself should you try to make the game more challenging for yourself when they give you the options to, or should DE spend resources making the game harder for you and the top .0001 % when 99% of players will never be at your level and any added difficulty aside from allowing you to keep going in survival and stuff will likely ruin the experience of those other players making it so players who used to be able to Sorties and Arbitrations no longer can?, or should you just quit the game and find a new one that gives you a challenge that you can't cheese out of?

Right, DE should absolutely not make the game harder across the board, for everyone. But does that mean that there should exist no content to challenge the seasoned players? I hate to repeat myself since clearly my points aren't getting through, but here is a quote from my previous statement:

12 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Now, of course warframe shouldn't change course and begin catering entirely to me and those who think like me, but I think there is room in the game to cater to both audiences.

So please stop mischaracterizing what I'm saying. I'm not saying every aspect of the game should be made harder, far from it! I'm just saying that there's room for all the current content and content to challenge seasoned players. 

However, you are right that a successful business model exists where veteran players are hemorrhaged due to a lack of challenging content so long as the influx of new players is high enough such that the net gain is still positive. This business model is not healthy for the relationship between developers and players, so let's please dispense with this idea right now. If DE agreed with you and flat out said that dedicated players should just quit because the game is designed for newer players, I think there would be uproar - or at least I hope so, perhaps there would be celebration instead 😞

[Cubewano]

19 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Right, DE should absolutely not make the game harder across the board, for everyone. But does that mean that there should exist no content to challenge the seasoned players? I hate to repeat myself since clearly my points aren't getting through, but here is a quote from my previous statement:

So please stop mischaracterizing what I'm saying. I'm not saying every aspect of the game should be made harder, far from it! I'm just saying that there's room for all the current content and content to challenge seasoned players. 

However, you are right that a successful business model exists where veteran players are hemorrhaged due to a lack of challenging content so long as the influx of new players is high enough such that the net gain is still positive. This business model is not healthy for the relationship between developers and players, so let's please dispense with this idea right now. If DE agreed with you and flat out said that dedicated players should just quit because the game is designed for newer players, I think there would be uproar - or at least I hope so, perhaps there would be celebration instead 😞

They really should just bring in the players power ceiling, it isn't like our lower level performance is the problem with the games balance/gameplay, it's just how high we can scale from it and how easily even. We have to be honest with that nobody needs to kind of power levels we can currently achieve in the game, casual or not, and it isn't really doing anyone favors either unless you're a min maxer prepping for the most efficient farming which is exactly the sort DE wouldn't want to cater to. New/Casual players don't benefit from veterans being able to wipe maps in instants, it just forces them out of play, and hardcore/competitive players clearly don't get their difficulty standard from our over powered state of being, just hollow meta victories over trivialized game systems. There used to be a time where the biggest controversies over game balance were just the latest frame rebalance, otherwise the most of the playerbase was satisfied with the range of difficulty present in the game, now it feels like every other day the community is at each others throats over the state of the games balance, I have to believe there is a healthier range to be at than what we have now because we were at it at least once upon a time. 

[tychondus]

Is there a TLDR version of this? that wall of text is frightening.