Ash VS Loki: Which re-visit is better?

[(PSN)Vexx757]

As much as Ash is my main frame, I think he needs to be looked at again.

The 1st ability is only good with its augment. Augments should be used as an option and not coz the ability on its own is bad, the 2nd ability could benefit by having better cc and even through ppl say that his invisible is too short I have no issue with it, the 3rd ability has potential to be so much better just of the concept of teleportation alone and the 4th ability is terrible when it comes to activation speed, it`s too slow and other ppl can take your kills (even in low levels) and even more things that make it bad.

Overall Ash is a contradiction to what DE wants ppl to do in this game.... PLAY AS A TEAM, that's why he needs to be looked at again and If I were to give him a re-visit, this is what I would do;

 

Ash:

·       All abilities can be cast while on a zipline.

 

1st Ability:

·       If enemy is killed in one hit it is considered as a stealth kill.

·       Holding the ability will make both shurikens target the enemy you`re aiming at dealing double slash damage and adds critical damage based on what mods you have equipped on your melee weapon.

·       The more health the enemy loses, the slower the enemy moves when bleeding out.

·       When the enemy stops bleeding, it will go back to its normal movement speed.

 

2nd Ability:

·       Increase the cast stun duration to 4 sec.

·       The smoke left behind will last for 10 seconds.

·       Enemies that enter the smoke will have a 6 sec stun duration and are 40% more susceptible to damage.

·       All stun durations cannot be increased by duration mods.

·       Increase smoke cloud radius by 7m

·       Smoke cloud`s radius can be increased by range mods.

·       The stun and the smoke damage buff will also work on bosses.

·       When Ash is invisible, the apparitions from bs are also invisible.

 

There are now new ways you can use this ability;

·       You can use it next to a dangerously high-levelled enemy to stun it and kill it with ease.

·       You can use it to block enemies in doorways. Since the smoke affect duration is 6 seconds and the smoke lasts 10 seconds, enemies will be stuck for a total of 12 seconds.

·       If you mod for less duration and more range, it will turn it into a better cc ability.

 

3rd Ability:

·       Holding the ability will give Ash certain mobility buffs. Teleporting in the air will give him sprint speed, bullet-jump before teleporting will give him increased bullet-jumping distance and sliding before teleporting will give him maneuverer speed.

·       The buffs start at 5% however, multiple used can increase them up to its maximum of 25%.

·       All buffs will have a duration of 20 seconds.

·       These buffs are not affected by strength and duration mods.

·       Holding the ability while on the ground will make ash kick the enemy across the room causing a small ragdoll (visual animation is the same)

·       You can teleport through windows if there are allies, npcs, enemies or objects with a health bar on the other side of it.

·       You are able to teleport to enemies in the air.

·       After teleporting in the air, preforming melee attacks will keep him in the air. (if DE decides to add aerial combos to melee 3.0)

 

4th Ability:

·       When activating the ability, it will start instantly.

·       Pressing the ability will bring you into the animation while holding the ability will send clones out to kill instead of you.

·       If you want to jump out of bs, press the ability again and the clones will continue to kill enemies.

·       Enemies that are red can be killed by players.

·       There is no limit to how many enemies he can kill within the radius of the enemy he`s aiming at.

·       An indicator is shown of the number of enemies that are going to be killed by bs.

 

Why this logically makes blade storm better;

Spoiler

Ash`s bs is slow however at lease because it`s an instant activation, he will at least get to the enemies 1st before any other frame`s damage ability does.

·       The current bs we have now made him absolutely useless in a team but with my changes, at least in a high-level mission he can kill more efficiently which in turn make the team less likely to get downed.

·       The choice of whether you want to be in the animations or not is much easier to pull off. The way it is now if you use bs and you want to join the animation, but you have no energy you can’t join it even through it`s not meant to cost any energy to do so.

·       The indicator lets you know when you can use bs again.

·       If saryn, banshee and equinox can kill as many enemies that’s in their radius then ash should be able to do the same thing.

·       He now has a reason to use his 1st ability in high-level mission. (without augment)

·       Being in the animation is more interactive and requires you to participate which can give you bonuses.

·       These changes do not make him op because other people can take his kills while bs is still active.

4

 

Interactive blade storm animation

Spoiler

If you don`t want to be in the animation, it will act as normal however if you decide to be involved in the animation, you have a chance to gain bonus duration of slash ticks and 1% animation speed increase in the next use however, you have to be interactive within the animation.

 

While in the animation;

 

·       You have to press the melee button in sink when his stabs enemies in the animation.

·       When doing so, there is an indicator showing the buffs and successful hits which will be converted into duration of slash ticks and animation speed increase.

·       The more successful hits you get the more animation speed you can get in the next use e.g. 10 successful hits = 10% animation speed.

·       The maxium slash duration bonus you can receive is 7 seconds.

·       If you jump out of bs you will lose the bonuses.

·       The bonuses slash tick duration will also include all weapon types. (even weapons that don’t have slash)

·       If you don`t interact with at least five animation cutscenes and get three successful hits, you will only deal half of bs damage. (2000 damage + no interaction = 1000 damage.

5

Since Ash doesn`t have any synergy (or any good ones) here are some that will improve his performance;

 

Synergies

Smoke Screen + Shuriken, Teleport & Blade Storm:

·       If you use any ability while you`re invisible, enemy bodies will disappear.

·       The energy cost will also be cut down by half.

·       Using you 1st, 3rd and 4th abilities on the smoke victim will increase the damage dealt to the enemy.

 

Shuriken + Teleport:

·       Using the 1st ability on an enemy will show their health bar through walls longer, making you able to teleport to them as long as they are continually receiving bleeding ticks.

 

Since DE is getting rid of the combo multiplier, here is a solution to building up damage.

 Shuriken + Blade Storm:

To increase the damage of bs you must use shuriken. As long as enemies continuously keep receiving bleeding ticks, your damage will increase over time with no limit.

·       Enemies need to be alive and bleeding from the 1st ability for bs to build up damage.

·       If no enemies are affected by slash, you will have five seconds before the damage is lost.

·       If the five seconds is up, the stored-up damage will decay overtime instead of disappearing completely.

·       There will be an indicator showing the amount of damage you are accumulating and the amount of time you have left.

·       If you get downed, the timer won`t start until you are revived.

 

Fixes:

·       Make Ash be able to teleport in and out of the same grates instead of just one direction.

·       Sometime ash is glitched and stabbing the air and he is unseen when using bs due to camera angle.

·       Make the “clones” look like him (like wukong`s 1st ability) instead of looking like a hologram.

·       When blade storm is done, Ash doesn’t appear at the same place he started at but instead is teleported in a different location.

 

Loki is on of those frames ppl say that don`t need to be looked at but imo, he needs a look over. Only 2 out of 4 of his abilities are being used, the 1st ability is just a couple of seconds of a distraction until its destroyed plus Wisp and Saryn does it better and the 3rd ability gets it into more danger if you switch with enemies. Here is what I would do to improve his abilities;

 

Loki:

1st ability:

·       After cast, it`s immune to damage for five seconds while absorbing damage however, the five seconds of immunity doesn’t start until it gets attacked. Depending on the damage stored it will be converted into health for more survivability.

·       Holding the ability will make the decoy mobile within a 10m radius which can be increased by range mods.

·       When shooting, enemies will be affected by an impact proc making them stagger.

·       There is a 50% chance of it to proc blast damage knocking enemies down, if this happens, enemies within a 30m radius will prioritise the decoy as a dangerous threat increasing threat levels for seven seconds. (threat levels higher than interception and defence targets)

·       It will use whatever primary or secondary weapon Loki is currently using.

 

2nd ability:

·       When you shoot your weapon at a certain point, enemies will seek out the location of the surface where the bullet hit.

·       (Synergy) An enemy you kill while invisible will give the 1st ability 40% critical chance to and 3.0 critical damage for 15 seconds.

 

3rd ability:

·       After switching with the enemy, loki will be invulnerable for three second while the enemy will receive a radiation proc.

·       Loki is always be facing the enemy he`s switches with.

·       If he teleports into a group of enemies, they will receive a knock down in a 10m radius however, this only works if you`re not invisible.

·       If you have a melee weapon equipped while doing so, enemies will take slide attack damage from melee weapon.

·       If an enemy is killed by it, Loki will receive 70% critical chance and status chance increase on weapons for 15 seconds.

·       (Synergy) If you decide to switch places with the decoy, you and the decoy will knock down enemies within a 15m radius.

 

4th ability:

·       Holding the ability will make enemies weapons explode dealing 1000 blast damage and knocking them down. This can be increased by strength mods.

·       This will deactivate infested eximus for 20 seconds.

·       (Synergy) If you use this after receiving critical and status chance from teleporting to an ally, the critical chance status chance will carry over to enemies affected by blast increasing its damage.

 

I think if these change were implemented they will drastically improve their usefulness and most importantly... make them fun to play. So I ask, if these changes were implemented would you play these frames? or would it make you want to play them? 

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by (PS4)Vexx757

[BasKy]

hace 4 horas, (PS4)Vexx757 dijo:

The 1st ability is only good with its augment. Augments should be used as an option and not coz the ability on its own is bad, the 2nd ability could benefit by having better cc and even through ppl say that his invisible is too short I have no issue with it, the 3rd ability has potential to be so much better just of the concept of teleportation alone and the 4th ability is terrible when it comes to activation speed, it`s too slow and other ppl can take your kills (even in low levels) and even more things that make it bad.

Mostly I agree, but I think the way you approach the issue isn't the best.

hace 4 horas, (PS4)Vexx757 dijo:

1st Ability:

·       If enemy is killed in one hit it is considered as a stealth kill.

·       Holding the ability will make both shurikens target the enemy you`re aiming at dealing double slash damage and adds critical damage based on what mods you have equipped on your melee weapon.

·       The more health the enemy loses, the slower the enemy moves when bleeding out.

·       When the enemy stops bleeding, it will go back to its normal movement speed.

The buffs are welcome but I still wouldn't use it. Flat damage will always become useless at high levels and I use Ash in Arbitrations. One BS mark costs 12, Shuriken costs 25, if I want to kill the guy BS is always better.
What Shuriken needs in my opinion is a utility function. Maybe teleporting to an enemy recently hit by Shuriken could make you invisible for a short duration. It's still more energy than Smoke Screen alone but you get the damage and mobility from Teleport. It's not just a buff, but a new situational mechanic.

hace 4 horas, (PS4)Vexx757 dijo:

2nd Ability:

·       Increase the cast stun duration to 4 sec.

·       The smoke left behind will last for 10 seconds.

·       Enemies that enter the smoke will have a 6 sec stun duration and are 40% more susceptible to damage.

·       All stun durations cannot be increased by duration mods.

·       Increase smoke cloud radius by 7m

·       Smoke cloud`s radius can be increased by range mods.

·       The stun and the smoke damage buff will also work on bosses.

·       When Ash is invisible, the apparitions from bs are also invisible.

The first problem I have here is that some of these stats are not affected by mods. That takes the fun of it, isn't it fun to make builds?
The rest is fine I think, as long as you retain the stats from current SS.
Right now SS serves me well to escape dangerous situations. I don't build duration and I could even build negative duration and still find SS useful but for that only.

 

hace 4 horas, (PS4)Vexx757 dijo:

3rd Ability:

·       Holding the ability will give Ash certain mobility buffs. Teleporting in the air will give him sprint speed, bullet-jump before teleporting will give him increased bullet-jumping distance and sliding before teleporting will give him maneuverer speed.

·       The buffs start at 5% however, multiple used can increase them up to its maximum of 25%.

·       All buffs will have a duration of 20 seconds.

·       These buffs are not affected by strength and duration mods.

·       Holding the ability while on the ground will make ash kick the enemy across the room causing a small ragdoll (visual animation is the same)

·       You can teleport through windows if there are allies, npcs, enemies or objects with a health bar on the other side of it.

·       You are able to teleport to enemies in the air.

·       After teleporting in the air, preforming melee attacks will keep him in the air. (if DE decides to add aerial combos to melee 3.0)

The same about not being affected by mods.
Movement buff is better than flat damage, but is this enough? Would you use teleport just to bullet jump faster? I wouldn't, these buffs are at the same level as most Warframe's passive, a bonus that is there but not really useful.
I hate ragdoll.
Teleporting through walls? Sounds good. Make it so we can see the enemy behind the wall when marked or hit by Shuriken, just for QoL. The same effect as the codex scanner.
And in order to fix the buggy finisher that sometimes doesn't trigger, it should just use BS animation automatically.
I still wouldn't use this skill unless it kills the enemy (even then, BS does it cheaper). Using it as mobility seems like a waste of energy to me. What about lifesteal? Either that or it makes the same damage as BS (Including Combo Counter). It costs more anyways and it's slower.

 

hace 4 horas, (PS4)Vexx757 dijo:

4th Ability:

·       When activating the ability, it will start instantly.

·       Pressing the ability will bring you into the animation while holding the ability will send clones out to kill instead of you.

·       If you want to jump out of bs, press the ability again and the clones will continue to kill enemies.

·       Enemies that are red can be killed by players.

·       There is no limit to how many enemies he can kill within the radius of the enemy he`s aiming at.

·       An indicator is shown of the number of enemies that are going to be killed by bs.

First cast should always be the clones. in most situations it's more useful to do something else while they kill.
i'm not sure what to say about the rest. I was one of those that hated new BS, somehow now I like it. It's not weak at all as long as you have the damage.

This ability doesn't need to be a Nuke. You compare it to Saryn and others as if Ash was the problem and not Saryn.

 

hace 4 horas, (PS4)Vexx757 dijo:

The current bs we have now made him absolutely useless in a team

This is NOT true at all. As I said I use him in Arbitrations and I always have a high (if not the highest) kill count and damage dealt of the team.

 

hace 4 horas, (PS4)Vexx757 dijo:

Since DE is getting rid of the combo multiplier, here is a solution to building up damage.

 Shuriken + Blade Storm:

To increase the damage of bs you must use shuriken. As long as enemies continuously keep receiving bleeding ticks, your damage will increase over time with no limit.

·       Enemies need to be alive and bleeding from the 1st ability for bs to build up damage.

·       If no enemies are affected by slash, you will have five seconds before the damage is lost.

·       If the five seconds is up, the stored-up damage will decay overtime instead of disappearing completely.

·       There will be an indicator showing the amount of damage you are accumulating and the amount of time you have left.

·       If you get downed, the timer won`t start until you are revived.

5 Seconds is way to little. There's no room for mistakes there, the bonus damage should be huge to make it good, but overall I like it because If enemies die in one hit (no time to procc bleed) you don't make stacks, but you don't need them. If the enemy doesn't die, you procc slash and build up damage.
We need something to replace combo counter yes. I had no idea they were going to remove it, maybe we should wait and see what they do.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Thanks for taking the time to read my ideas on Ash. Because you read it, I'm going to address your points.

On 2019-10-18 at 7:48 PM, BasKy said:

Mostly I agree, but I think the way you approach the issue isn't the best.

What make you say this? is it coz you have seed better ideas?

On 2019-10-18 at 7:48 PM, BasKy said:

The buffs are welcome but I still wouldn't use it. Flat damage will always become useless at high levels and I use Ash in Arbitrations. 

It`s understandable, its a matter of opinion. When I came up with these ideas, I was thinking of playing him solo so I understand that it won`t be useful at high-levels besides not every ability is meant to be good for high-levels.

On 2019-10-18 at 7:48 PM, BasKy said:

The first problem I have here is that some of these stats are not affected by mods. That takes the fun of it, isn't it fun to make builds?
The rest is fine I think, as long as you retain the stats from current SS.
Right now SS serves me well to escape dangerous situations. I don't build duration and I could even build negative duration and still find SS useful but for that only.

If your talking about the duration I did that intentionally. Think about it if it was affected by duration and you decide to go negative duration for range, the stuns won`t last long but coz it`s not going negative duration won`t affect the duration of the stuns. Also I took this out from my notes but ill add it here.

There are now new ways you can use this ability;

·       You can use it next to a dangerously high-levelled enemy to stun it and kill it with ease.

·       You can use it to block enemies in doorways. Since the smoke affect duration is 6 seconds and the smoke lasts 10 seconds, enemies will be stuck for a total of 12 seconds.

·       If you mod for less duration and more range, it will turn it into a better cc ability.

On 2019-10-18 at 7:48 PM, BasKy said:

The same about not being affected by mods.
Movement buff is better than flat damage, but is this enough? Would you use teleport just to bullet jump faster? I wouldn't, these buffs are at the same level as most Warframe's passive, a bonus that is there but not really useful.
I hate ragdoll.
Teleporting through walls? Sounds good. Make it so we can see the enemy behind the wall when marked or hit by Shuriken, just for QoL. The same effect as the codex scanner.
And in order to fix the buggy finisher that sometimes doesn't trigger, it should just use BS animation automatically.
I still wouldn't use this skill unless it kills the enemy (even then, BS does it cheaper). Using it as mobility seems like a waste of energy to me. What about lifesteal? Either that or it makes the same damage as BS (Including Combo Counter). It costs more anyways and it's slower.

These buffs are a choice you don't have to use them if you don`t want to plus the enemy ragdoll is a hold so it won`t change anything its just an option. As for teleporting through wall I have proff that it can be something that can work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdLtCB_wTVY

 

Here are my reason why bs imo is a problem.

The marking process makes bs slow, in a fast-pasted game THIS IS BAD. 

Other players can take their kills before you get a chance to kill them. 

Bodies disappearing makes it to where you can`t bring him in a desecrating team with a nekros. 

The indicator shows how many marks instead of how many enemies affected by bs. 

Using your 2nd ability to use less energy is not synergy. Synergy is a choice; this so-called synergy is a must. 

Using the 3rd ability to be in the animation costs no energy but you need energy to be able to use it. Make that make sense.

Apparitions "clones" appearance is not consistent.

Also what do you think of my ideas for loki?

[BasKy]

hace 8 horas, (PS4)Vexx757 dijo:

What make you say this? is it coz you have seed better ideas?

Because the only problem I see with Ash is that I don't use 2 of his abilities, and your buffs don't fix this issue for me.
I also dislike gimmicks. Almost every passive in this game is a waste when they could be much better. They are meant to reinforce the frame's theme and that's a waste. That's why I personally don't like the buffs you suggested to teleport, minus the teleport through walls wich I liked very much.

Also, Bladestorm can be relatively fast at killing. It depends on enemy levels. Take Revenant, looks like a useless frame until you take it to high levels.
Saryn and Mesa shine everywhere, if you go to a public with nuke frames your Ash can fall short because you can't kill everything with a button in 1 second, but who cares really, at that level you can win without using powers at all. But at high level Ash is a beast. No need to go full melee either, just the primary weapon and Bladestorm. It doesn't kill slow, and your squadmates won't "steal" every kill because enemies are too strong. Meanwhile you can oneshot anything, at 12 energy, and if someone kills it faster you get your energy refunded. Why no one talks about how cheap BS is lol
 

hace 8 horas, (PS4)Vexx757 dijo:

Using the 3rd ability to be in the animation costs no energy but you need energy to be able to use it

Maybe because they thought giving you immortality for free was too much i guess, if you are about to die and lost all your energy you can't jump into BS. I also don't like how this is implemented because sometimes I want to join BS but the clones kill so fast I cant aim an enemy. Should've been just recast 4 to join, or remain inside bladestorm while holding 4.

Haven't read the Loki part, I wanted to give my opinion about Ash because I use it regularly.

Edited October 21, 2019 by BasKy
Added the last part

[(PSN)Vexx757]

14 hours ago, BasKy said:

-snip-

That can`t be help, my ideas are not meant for everyone to like so I'm not upset you don`t like them. People will take you kills if you are playing low to mid level missions, the old bs never had that problem and my issue with bs IS NOT DAMAGE it`s the fact the marking mechanic is slow and requires line of sight plus it`s harder to mark enemies with a controller, using the marking mechanic playing solo is ok but in a team however is a problem. Imo despite the probs of the old bs it`s far superior than what we have now my ides just combines the old and the current ideas with no downsides and this is something I'm not budging on. I do agree with you, I also don`t like the teleport into bs that's what my idea addresses, press to be in the animation, hold to send out clones best of both worlds.