Feedback: Titania rework. (Devstream updated)

[selig_fay]

7 минут назад, Pixzia сказал:

(Changing this would also allow you to bring Vacuum/Fetch on your Razorflys/Companion, which means they could remove the innate vacuum from Razorwing.

^{Something a set group of people have been wanting ever since the innate vacuum was added.})

Actually, I think that initially the addition of a congenital vacuum was a mistake. They could make it 2-3 meters, this acts on other frames and give the ability to use companions.

9 минут назад, Pixzia сказал:

If her razorflys were moddable or Companion mods actually applies while in Razorwing, then you could do this as well.

^{(another problem with her Razorwing)}

This problem lies in the archwing system itself. I understand that dogs, cats and Moa can't fly, but guardians don't have that kind of problem. And we could get more companions that would act like razorfly but work in both archwing and normal mode. But this is a strong change to the system as a whole and I don't know if they will go for it.

On the other hand, pox can not be a Prime version, which means we get only sarpa prime and another weapon that is not associated with the set. And I honestly think sarpa is the worst type of weapon for Titania. I'd rather get a Glaive + pistol because it works very well with mobility. Maybe with the current melee systems the problem is gone, I don't know, but something tells me that firing a sarpa Titania is not the best idea anyway.

[Starz]

24 minutes ago, zhellon said:

This problem lies in the archwing system itself. I understand that dogs, cats and Moa can't fly,

Not even saying that they need to be out, just have the effects apply/proc in her Razorwing form. No other frame has this hard of a restriction that I know of. You can't use any of your other weapons, Companion mods are completely ignored, it's a drain ability (limiting energy regeneration methods), it's single target, and you generally lose mobility unless you use an augment. (An augment that limits builds. Ex. I can't just use it to fly around casting ability's because if I drop strength -something that no other ability really benefits from- I lose out on killing power because of weapon limitations.)

Edited November 16, 2019 by Pixzia

[ixidron92]

hace 2 minutos, Pixzia dijo:

Not even saying that they need to be out, just have the effects apply/proc in her Razorwing form. No other frame has this hard of a restriction that I know of. You can't use any of your other weapons, Companion mods are completely ignored, it's a drain ability (limiting energy regeneration methods), it's single target, and you generally lose mobility unless you use an augment. (An augment that limits builds. Ex. I can't just use it to fly around casting ability's because if I drop strength -something that no other ability really benefits from- I lose out on killing power because of weapon limitations.)

Companions simply don't work with Archwing because that's how it's coded. There is no simply workaround other than making razorflies a custom sentinel.

[Starz]

1 minute ago, ixidron92 said:

Companions simply don't work with Archwing because that's how it's coded. There is no simply workaround other than making razorflies a custom sentinel.

Or recoding Razorwing dependent from Archwing but I don't see that happening unless it has already been done (I don't remember). Maybe a work around would be easier than that, who knows. I do see Custom Razorflys being more likely. Pretty sure they don't care about them either though, as for something that's a "main" part of her kit they didn't even include them on the deluxe skin. That would be like not making Nezha's ring part of the deluxe.

[selig_fay]

3 минуты назад, ixidron92 сказал:

Companions simply don't work with Archwing because that's how it's coded. There is no simply workaround other than making razorflies a custom sentinel.

I remember them attaching a guardian to the operator (due to a bug), so I don't think there's a particular problem with this in archwing mode either. 

The problem is with companions on earth. I can tell that right now with Hildryn's flying Bastille they are behaving very inappropriately and can just teleport to the ceiling and get stuck there. On the other hand, we can't tell players to "not use ground companions." On this Yes, perhaps razorfly-this the best the exit. But razorfly with ordinary mods will still not be useful, like cats with their buffs or dogs with their damage. And it's a melee companion, so mods that give orbs health when enemy killed will work worse than a companion with a firearm + gas.

There are a lot of subtleties. If you give cats buffs to razorfly, can happen buff on 30*6 = 180% crit chance or 30 * 10 (razorfly + tribute) = 300%. That would be a cool bug.

[ixidron92]

Justo ahora, Pixzia dijo:

Or recoding Razorwing dependent from Archwing but I don't see that happening unless it has already been done (I don't remember). Maybe a work around would be easier than that, who knows. I do see Custom Razorflys being more likely. Pretty sure they don't care about them either though, as for something that's a "main" part of her kit they didn't even include them on the deluxe skin. That would be like not making Nezha's ring part of the deluxe.

The problem is, they are not gonna recode an entire system just for one warframe. Razorwing depends on the archwing code for mobility, keybinds, maneuvers and pathfinding. That means, if they make an QoL o an important modification to the archwing system, Titania gets it automatically, if they were independent, they'd have to code any modification for the archwing in duplicate for the razorwing. I doubt that's gonna change.

[selig_fay]

3 минуты назад, Pixzia сказал:

Pretty sure they don't care about them either though, as for something that's a "main" part of her kit they didn't even include them on the deluxe skin. That would be like not making Nezha's ring part of the deluxe.

Yes, I am saddened by it too. They made a unique razorfly shape, but took their spawning off your shoulders. 

[ixidron92]

hace 1 minuto, zhellon dijo:

I remember them attaching a guardian to the operator (due to a bug), so I don't think there's a particular problem with this in archwing mode either. 

The problem is with companions on earth. I can tell that right now with Hildryn's flying Bastille they are behaving very inappropriately and can just teleport to the ceiling and get stuck there. On the other hand, we can't tell players to "not use ground companions." On this Yes, perhaps razorfly-this the best the exit. But razorfly with ordinary mods will still not be useful, like cats with their buffs or dogs with their damage. And it's a melee companion, so mods that give orbs health when enemy killed will work worse than a companion with a firearm + gas.

There are a lot of subtleties. If you give cats buffs to razorfly, can happen buff on 30*6 = 180% crit chance or 30 * 10 (razorfly + tribute) = 300%. That would be a cool bug.

Hyldrin works differently, as she's not tied to the archwing system. She's considered as an airborne warframe for all the game's purposes, only her model and camera angle are altered. That's a nifty trick to make us think she's flying (and she technically is) just the code doesn't consider her as a flying frame, just as an airborne frame, much like someone doing a perpetual aimglide.

[Starz]

1 minute ago, ixidron92 said:

they are not gonna recode an entire system just for one warframe

There is still a possibility to make a work around, like I said I see Custom Razorflys before any of this.

[selig_fay]

2 минуты назад, ixidron92 сказал:

The problem is, they are not gonna recode an entire system just for one warframe. Razorwing depends on the archwing code for mobility, keybinds, maneuvers and pathfinding. That means, if they make an QoL o an important modification to the archwing system, Titania gets it automatically, if they were independent, they'd have to code any modification for the archwing in duplicate for the razorwing. I doubt that's gonna change.

We have a skywing. Can we get some integrations from it? For example, temporarily increasing the size to interact with the console. Or use conventional weapons xD

[ixidron92]

Justo ahora, Pixzia dijo:

There is still a possibility to make a work around, like I said I see Custom Razorflys before any of this.

Yes, that's my suggestion. Simply make razorflies her own exalted sentinel as a workaround.

[ixidron92]

Justo ahora, zhellon dijo:

We have a skywing. Can we get some integrations from it? For example, temporarily increasing the size to interact with the console. Or use conventional weapons xD

Now that we have parazon, I see no reason why Titania couldn't interact with consoles. Previously you could say she's too small to operate the screen, but now, all she has to do is jack in with the parazon.

[selig_fay]

1 минуту назад, ixidron92 сказал:

Now that we have parazon, I see no reason why Titania couldn't interact with consoles. Previously you could say she's too small to operate the screen, but now, all she has to do is jack in with the parazon.

Well, here you can joke that Titania turns parazon into a regular headphone Jack and it is no longer suitable for consoles xD

[selig_fay]

OK, I'll suggest a topic for discussion.

According to legend, all people who saw the real forms of fairies were deprived of eyes or went crazy. Should the normal form become the mechanics for Titania's invisibility, or should she get the passive control that Gara has? Maybe enemies who see Titania's normal form get radiation prock? Although, it's very similar to what Oberon does.

[ixidron92]

hace 8 horas, zhellon dijo:

OK, I'll suggest a topic for discussion.

According to legend, all people who saw the real forms of fairies were deprived of eyes or went crazy. Should the normal form become the mechanics for Titania's invisibility, or should she get the passive control that Gara has? Maybe enemies who see Titania's normal form get radiation prock? Although, it's very similar to what Oberon does.

What? Oberon's passive simply increases the effectiveness of companion link mods and gives them an instant revive.

I think getting radiation proc from seeing Titania would be way too OP. Think about it. It's basically a passive mass CC. Titania could just park there immobile watching everyone kill each other.

I already suggested giving her abilities (sheltered grotto, tribute and lantern) radiation procs to fit that lore. 

[selig_fay]

48 минут назад, ixidron92 сказал:

I think getting radiation proc from seeing Titania would be way too OP. Think about it. It's basically a passive mass CC. Titania could just park there immobile watching everyone kill each other.

Yes. But on the other hand, opponents can't kill each other due to their hp/armor/shields being many times greater than the damage. Moreover, radiation will not work well if you stand too close. We can simply take 7 meters radius actions, because this the radius, when generation aggression stops work and mobs choose targets relatively priority distances.

But, actually, I was thinking of taking passive racta dark dagger ability and improving it. Say: when Titania in normal form not is leading the fire, all opponents, which are further 15 meters not will to see her. If you make this an aura mechanic that will apply to allies too, give Titania the ability to benefit from this aura, as: spellbind will blind enemies and push them beyond the aura. I think, that can be so same give razorwing another aura, thereby can be build same ability to for both forms of, but do so, to they yielded different effects relatively aura.

I mean, Titania already has an aura system as a Tribute. Just make it a passive ability that works differently as to what form you are in.

[ixidron92]

En 17/11/2019 a las 12:10, zhellon dijo:

Yes. But on the other hand, opponents can't kill each other due to their hp/armor/shields being many times greater than the damage. Moreover, radiation will not work well if you stand too close. We can simply take 7 meters radius actions, because this the radius, when generation aggression stops work and mobs choose targets relatively priority distances.

But, actually, I was thinking of taking passive racta dark dagger ability and improving it. Say: when Titania in normal form not is leading the fire, all opponents, which are further 15 meters not will to see her. If you make this an aura mechanic that will apply to allies too, give Titania the ability to benefit from this aura, as: spellbind will blind enemies and push them beyond the aura. I think, that can be so same give razorwing another aura, thereby can be build same ability to for both forms of, but do so, to they yielded different effects relatively aura.

I mean, Titania already has an aura system as a Tribute. Just make it a passive ability that works differently as to what form you are in.

Well, even if they don't kill each other, it's a passive mass AoE. Gara's passive has limitations: it needs light and it has a CD and a range, but having that as a passive would be like having Nyx's Chaos permanently active at all times. It'd be way too powerful.

The Rakta Dagger passive would also be too powerful. remember that you need to have it equipped for it to work, limiting you to just a simple dagger as a melee weapon, but Titania can fly high, which would make enemies unable to target her.

I would accept that passive with some limitation, like it deactivates for X seconds if you attack or use an ability, similarly to Wisp's passive invisibility.

Still, I could see that working as an addition to Dust. Dust loses effectiveness at higher levels, as enemy accuracy improves, but that mechanic could still work at any level. 

Here is my proposal: 

Dust

Enemies affected by dust lose sight of Titania and any of her allies that are 15m or more away from them. This effect is cancelled for 2 seconds after taking any hostile action or using an ability. In addition, enemies have a 50% (scales with strength) chance to miss their shots.

Edited November 19, 2019 by ixidron92

[selig_fay]

1 час назад, ixidron92 сказал:

The Rakta Dagger passive would also be too powerful. remember that you need to have it equipped for it to work, limiting you to just a simple dagger as a melee weapon, but Titania can fly high, which would make enemies unable to target her.

The dagger has long been provided by the buff, which is valid for 30 seconds when you use other weapons.

 

[(PSN)Khaleg]

On 2019-11-08 at 1:49 PM, Aadi880 said:

Swarm: Replaces tribute, but with similar concept. Titania summons a swarm of razorflies that orbits and covers Titania in a 5m radius (max 10 meters). This gives Titania 50% bullet evasion as she is harder to see, 45% damage reduction as bullets are caught by razorflies, and if enemies comes within the range of the swarm, they are disarmed, while also slowing their movement by 25%. Again, benefits from range mods, duration, (maybe strength too?). allies within the swarm will get the same benefit. (It might be OP? Dunno)

Main Titania here, my suggestions:

Spellbind:
    - Make this ability tether the affected enemies to the ground
    - Make it so it can be cast in an area, more than on specific enemies. N enemies on the area will be affected
    - Casting it over a near surface is as now, casting it over Titania giving proc stats removal
    - Casting it over allies is as now, but affecting allies in the area

Tribute:
    - Change it to something as the Swarm described by Aadi880
    - A swarm of butterflies surround Titania, disarming enemies affected by these and slowing down them

    or...

    - Keep Tribute but:
    - Souls are added to an stack pool (the same as Nidus stacks) and an long press of the ability cast button shows a circular menu to choose the desired buff, just as the Ivara's arrow type selector
    - Selecting a buff consumes certain numbers of stacks, the quantity should be balanced
    - Armor / Evasion of Titania is increased by the stacks so, either you keep the stacks, generating armor / evasion, or you use the stacks into buffs (of you choosing)

Lantern:
    - Keep rag-doll to the minimum
    - Lantern would attract agro and enemies would shoot to the lantern
    - Final explosion damage should escalate with damage obtained by the lantern
    - If Titania shoots to the lantern below the center of gravity (geometric center), these moves towards Titania in straight line
    - If Titania shoots to the lantern above the center of gravity (geometric center), these moves away Titania in straight line

Razorwing:
    - Keep as is but:
    - Allow selecting butterfly next objective by doing a long press of the button ability (after defeating the marked objective the butterflies return to its normal routine)

Please tell me what do you think.

[selig_fay]

4 часа назад, (PS4)Khaleg сказал:

Casting it over allies is as now, but affecting allies in the area

It's affecting the allies now. The problem is that you won't be able to catch mobile ally.

4 часа назад, (PS4)Khaleg сказал:

- If Titania shoots to the lantern below the center of gravity (geometric center), these moves towards Titania in straight line

- If Titania shoots to the lantern above the center of gravity (geometric center), these moves away Titania in straight line

It's bad mechanics. Opponents have different sizes and hitboxes. It may happen that you will not be able to attract or repel enemies enemies this way.

Second point, you don't want to attract something that gets shot at all the time. either you need a mechanic that allows you to ignore the damage, or something else.

4 часа назад, (PS4)Khaleg сказал:

Lantern would attract agro and enemies would shoot to the lantern

The third point, your razorfly and your Lantern concept  create conflict abilities, so as and the and the possesses mechanics generation aggression. When the mechanics of aggression 2 objects, the target is selected based on distance. So the damage accumulation mechanics won't work well unless you can disable razorfly.

4 часа назад, (PS4)Khaleg сказал:

Keep as is but:

That is, you are satisfied with bugs, restrictions, the inability to interact with equipment and Pets, the inability to interact with consoles, which is solved with skywing, build restrictions because razorwing requires a lot of power to be effective? 

I saw Titania yesterday. Do you know how many times Titania has used razorwing? 0 times. Because conventional weapons are more effective in most situations. The only Titania I've seen in 1 year played for skin only. I think it's something to think about. Yes, maybe you play razorwing only, but you are so few that you can be entered in the red book. But judging by forum, every the second man is Titania main and plays razorwing only. 

The ability is not OK. OK only Dex pixia (although, it already becomes weaker new samples weapons). All other aspects need a lot of refinement. 

 

 

[Vahenir]

My own two cents on this: 

Passive: I rather like this one myself the faster bulletjumping is really nice when you aren't in razorwing etc.

 

Ability 1: Decent enough, cast could be faster.

 

Ability 2: In its current state its not very good at all, slow to cast and the effects aren't even affected by mods. This should be altered into something to give her survivability outside of razorwing. Could be something like summoning razorflies for evasion and damage reduction outside of razorwing and summoning/directing the razorflies in razorwing. Main thing that /really/ need to be changed is the dependency on specific enemy types for specific buffs.

 

Ability 3: Complete garbage, replace it with anything that works. I'm somewhat partial to the idea of making the target of this a razorfly hive that instead of making enemies wander up to it spits out razorflies to distract and damage them for the duration. Optimally this would also scale with the enemy its cast upon. The bare minimum that needs to be changed is to make the target static so it doesn't immediately float off as soon as its hit by anything.

 

Ability 4: Razorwing is nice, but the melee weapon needs an upgrade badly and the pistols need a bit better scaling to make them more powerful against really high level enemies. Innate punchthrough perhaps?

[selig_fay]

10 минут назад, Vahenir сказал:

Innate punchthrough perhaps?

Problem solution:

В 11/7/2019 в 6:23 PM, zhellon сказал:

  Показать контент

 

 

[ixidron92]

hace 11 horas, (PS4)Khaleg dijo:

Main Titania here, my suggestions:

Spellbind:
    - Make this ability tether the affected enemies to the ground
    - Make it so it can be cast in an area, more than on specific enemies. N enemies on the area will be affected
    - Casting it over a near surface is as now, casting it over Titania giving proc stats removal
    - Casting it over allies is as now, but affecting allies in the area

Tribute:
    - Change it to something as the Swarm described by Aadi880
    - A swarm of butterflies surround Titania, disarming enemies affected by these and slowing down them

    or...

    - Keep Tribute but:
    - Souls are added to an stack pool (the same as Nidus stacks) and an long press of the ability cast button shows a circular menu to choose the desired buff, just as the Ivara's arrow type selector
    - Selecting a buff consumes certain numbers of stacks, the quantity should be balanced
    - Armor / Evasion of Titania is increased by the stacks so, either you keep the stacks, generating armor / evasion, or you use the stacks into buffs (of you choosing)

Lantern:
    - Keep rag-doll to the minimum
    - Lantern would attract agro and enemies would shoot to the lantern
    - Final explosion damage should escalate with damage obtained by the lantern
    - If Titania shoots to the lantern below the center of gravity (geometric center), these moves towards Titania in straight line
    - If Titania shoots to the lantern above the center of gravity (geometric center), these moves away Titania in straight line

Razorwing:
    - Keep as is but:
    - Allow selecting butterfly next objective by doing a long press of the button ability (after defeating the marked objective the butterflies return to its normal routine)

Please tell me what do you think.

Spellbind

While tethering is great, I wonder what happens when you use it against flying enemies? It's already an area. You can point it at enemies or allies, but it's an AoE. Still, you need a valid target. I think it's fine as is, since if you don't have a vallid target in the area (ally or enemy) you don't waste energy. You can cast it on surfaces and it already cleanses procs.

Tribute

That is also fine, but how are you supposed to get souls? We've already discussed that problem. You can either tap or hold, but you'd need 3 options here, 1 to get souls, one to cycle through buffs and 1 to cast. So, buttons are a problem. While I like the mechanic and tried to find a way to make it work ina previous discussion, we couldn't find a viable way to do so because of the lack of buttons.

Lantern

I say get rid of ragdolling and keep enemies tethered to a physical lantern. The next two options are part of my rework, so obviously we agree on that, and I'm realy confused about the last two. Considering Titania can move in 3D, it might be problematic.

Razorwing

Another option I suggested on a previous post was using the alt fire to guide Razorflies. So, obviously agree.

hace 6 horas, zhellon dijo:

Second point, you don't want to attract something that gets shot at all the time. either you need a mechanic that allows you to ignore the damage, or something else.

The third point, your razorfly and your Lantern concept  create conflict abilities, so as and the and the possesses mechanics generation aggression. When the mechanics of aggression 2 objects, the target is selected based on distance. So the damage accumulation mechanics won't work well unless you can disable razorfly.

That is, you are satisfied with bugs, restrictions, the inability to interact with equipment and Pets, the inability to interact with consoles, which is solved with skywing, build restrictions because razorwing requires a lot of power to be effective? 

I saw Titania yesterday. Do you know how many times Titania has used razorwing? 0 times. Because conventional weapons are more effective in most situations. The only Titania I've seen in 1 year played for skin only. I think it's something to think about. Yes, maybe you play razorwing only, but you are so few that you can be entered in the red book. But judging by forum, every the second man is Titania main and plays razorwing only. 

The ability is not OK. OK only Dex pixia (although, it already becomes weaker new samples weapons). All other aspects need a lot of refinement. 

 

 

Lantern already does that, attracting and mesmerizing enemies. I think previously enemies used to shoot the lantern as well.

Question, what's skywing?

hace 5 horas, Vahenir dijo:

My own two cents on this: 

Passive: I rather like this one myself the faster bulletjumping is really nice when you aren't in razorwing etc.

 

Ability 1: Decent enough, cast could be faster.

 

Ability 2: In its current state its not very good at all, slow to cast and the effects aren't even affected by mods. This should be altered into something to give her survivability outside of razorwing. Could be something like summoning razorflies for evasion and damage reduction outside of razorwing and summoning/directing the razorflies in razorwing. Main thing that /really/ need to be changed is the dependency on specific enemy types for specific buffs.

 

Ability 3: Complete garbage, replace it with anything that works. I'm somewhat partial to the idea of making the target of this a razorfly hive that instead of making enemies wander up to it spits out razorflies to distract and damage them for the duration. Optimally this would also scale with the enemy its cast upon. The bare minimum that needs to be changed is to make the target static so it doesn't immediately float off as soon as its hit by anything.

 

Ability 4: Razorwing is nice, but the melee weapon needs an upgrade badly and the pistols need a bit better scaling to make them more powerful against really high level enemies. Innate punchthrough perhaps?

Passive: Yeah, but you're mostly in razorwing since it's fast and more controllable, and the effect doesn't really benefit allies like it should, because the platform is so small it's ridiculous.

Spellbind: In that many people disagree. Overlaps a bit with lantern and could be mixed into one ability, opening the slot for a new ability.

Tribute: Needs a lot of QoL improvements. Bad mechanics and bad numbers. It already summons razorflies, but they should spawn one every time you use it, not once and no more like it is now.

Lantern: Like I said, some improvements and merging with spellbind and could be useful. 

Razorwing: Diwata definitely needs an upgrade.

[selig_fay]

7 минут назад, ixidron92 сказал:

Question, what's skywing?

Open world archwing. 

[selig_fay]

Lol, They broke Titania again.