10 Hours Of Farming For 2 Days Still No Hammershot.

[General_Krull]

 It is like the real world: Someone drives a Ferrari and you go to the Ferrari company and whine that they are too expensive and cannot get them. And the guy who won the lottery could buy it, this is so unfair.

 

Well, you don't really need a Ferrari to live. If you don't have food or a place to sleep, even some luxury items like a computer or a nice vacation, then you have a reason to complain, but not for a Ferrari.

Ok, this is the only thing I'm going address cause Ced apparently addressed rest. If someone wins the lottery he got lucky. If I also attended that lottery I would maybe be slightly jealous because he lucked out and not I. But then again that's the nature of lottery,when we participate we know it's all random chance.

 

If someone got a ferrari because they got rich trough hard work and perseverance it would be completely fine because I would too have one if I worked as hard as he did/does. 

 

It doesn't apply to this however, everything is random chance in this game, there is no measurable way of seeing how close to your goal you are. It's not good gameplay, as it was said before it leaves unlucky people resentful because their work goes unrewarded and lucky people unfulfilled because they got the rare thing with close to no effort.

[rohver]

Agreed. I've been trying to farm it as well....no use 

[General_Krull]

Agreed. I've been trying to farm it as well....no use 

Secret to get what you want is to not want it.

[Dunkelheit]

In chronological order:

The aspect of missing fun has been feedbacked on for a long time. Players have provided loads of ideas on how to enrich the game experience, but not a lot has been picked up upon. I agree with you that if people would have fun, the focus of obtaining item X would be less, and the game would be more enjoyable. That does, though, no invalidate the complaint about a 1% drop chance. Even if the game would be more fun, that droprate would still be 1%, and still be disheartening.

It is not about what you need. No one needs Warframe to begin with. It is, indeed, about what people want. That is not greed, though, but a valid desire. DE put item X in the game, people want item X. Dismissing that as greed is a little bit too simple. For example, you want to have fun while running a void mission. You want something. It's not an item, it is an experience, but where is the difference? And what entitles you to make that distinction? One needs to be careful when judging the desires of others. Your priorities and perception are not a Golden Standard, nor are they more justified than others. The desire of another player to collect all mods, regardless of requirement or necessity, is just as valid as a goal as getting to rank 12 or defeating T3 Defense with melee only.

PS: I have Hammershot equipped on the Soma, because it actually makes crit builds viable. Boosting that is nothing but consequential building.

You shouldn't start with "someone whines", because you already judge them right there. Listen to what they have to say instead of dismissing it. Apply logic and situational awareness, and stay level-headed. Dismissing the desires of others is nothing short of ignorant, with all due respect. If you want to indulge in a meaningful debate, you need to start expanding your horizon. A RNG system that dangles a reward at 1% chance is not an engaging game mechanic, and it certainly isn't good design. Good design uses effort and risks to make rewards valueable.

RNG and random loot drops are the deliberate abuse of Skinner Box mechanics, to extend content with an arbitrary, unnegotiatable luck factor that is simply uncaring for anything the player does. When these systems came into being, the players advocating them were Skinner Box trained by endorphine release and rather had the rush of a reward then the accomplishment of work. It's like the lottery. People get lucky. Getting lucky is easier than working. And since  "profit numbs the feelings", people gamble, play the lottery and say that they like the RNG. But they don't. People like winning and getting lucky, not gambling and lottery and RNG. This is basic psychology.

I don't care who's game this is. It doesn't matter. I am saying that RNG / Skinner Box abuse systems are bad and malicious in their very nature. Did so in Firefall, against Red 5, and eventually, random loot (upgrades) was removed. Now they only drop sidegrades and midgrades, upgrades need to be crafted. Players still get assisting loot, but the real deal comes from tangible, controlled effort. And while I rag on Firefall everywhere I go, that is probably the best midway solution I have seen in a while. It combines tangible effort/reward with a bit of luck on the way to where you want to go.

Say you want stronger jets, which require an amount X of resources. So you go out and farm those resources, and while you do that, you kill a mob that drops Green Jets. Now, you are going to craft blue or better, but the green ones are nicer than the stock stuff you start with. So in the interrim, you install those, get a little bit of an improvement and get the smile of a lucky drop - but the reward and feeling of accomplishment comes later and replaces those.

Being happy with any RNG system is a cognitive dissonance. You know you have the same chances as everyone else, you know your chance to get Hammershot is 1%, but you subconsciously hope that it will either drop eventually (luck) or you get lucky when you go to get it (luck again). You are not looking at the clear data that shows how dreadful your chances are, you hope for the lucky moment, and ignore the unlucky ones. And then you enjoy your endorphine rush and feel as if RNG is good.

 

It is not.

 

PS: "It is you!" - That argument falls flat on it's face. I am the only factor I can control, and I am doing whatever necessary to acquire item X. If the RNG denies me that drop, how is it me? A change in personal predispositon does not change the RNG. All I can do is roll the dice as often as I can make that happen, without any guarantee of a payout. Ever. It is certainly not the player. Believing that is a little warped.

 

 

Shotguns run best with these mods:

Hell's Chamber, Point Blank, Blaze, Accelerated Blast, Flechette, Incendiary Coat/Charged Shell, Chilling Grasp, Tactical Pump/Ammo Stock

 

The Soma runs best with:

Split Chamber, Serration, Shred, Point Strike, Vital Sense, Hammershot, Wildfire/Ammo Mutation, Piercing Hit.

 

It is not about shotguns, Hammershot doesn't even go on shotguns. What are you talking about?

 

 

Before I continue the discussion with you, let me get one thing out of the way:

 

I am sorry that I used the words "whine" and some other not-so-nice words, I was just tired of hearing the same arguments again and again and again and so I was not really interested in a discussion, I just wanted to whine about whiners. You made a lot of good an relevant arguments, so I really feel sorry and would like to apologise.

 

And you are right about Hammershot being a rifle mod. But I really don't care about mods and builds, since this game is so ridiculously easy that I can hammer down everything with a reactor and a build that is only 50% right. Sorry if I didnt get the facts straight.

 

If this is out of the way (and I sincerely hope it is), let me continue:

 

With everything you said, you are absolutely right and spot on. RNG is an outdated system, it is bad and there are a lot of better systems out there.

 

But my arguments were about a whole other level. Let me start with an example:

 

I have played Everquest religiously. In this game, you needed a lot of time to level up your toon. The process for getting experience points was extremely tedious. You sat down at a spawn, claimed this for you and killed the mobs. Since running around was dangerous and death in EQ was extremely punishing (you lost hours of experience), your best bet was to wait till the mobs respawn, then you kill them again.

This process had NO rng in it. They respawned at a fixed timeframe, you sat there... everything good? No, because leveling was tedious. Still you did it. You always had that carrot dangling in front of you:

In 4 levels, I get better spells, in 2 levels, I get a better pet, yahooooo. The gameplay was tedious and boring, but you took it like work since the beautiful rewards were just 1000 kills away.

 

At one point I asked myself, why am I doing this? The gameplay is not fun, it is all about the spells and when you finally get them, you go to the next spawn, have fun with your new spells for 5 minutes, then it is waiting for the next set of spells again.

 

And this teached me a valuable lesson: Don't play a game, when the gameplay isn't fun. Because you can easily mix up "getting rewards" with "having fun". I don't know how old you are, but I have played a lot of games. And when I played Baldurs Gate II or Planescape Torment, I was not after items or wondered how to get them or how to make my character really strong. The gameplay was so good and intense, that I did not worry.

 

And with all your arguments, you are right. Still it leaves the question... if the rewards are so important, why do you still play the game? Because the gameplay seems to be lacking when only rewards are driving your forward.

And this is what I meant. RNG is a S#&$ty system for rewads, I'll give you that.

 

 

 

And another argument:

Once you have all weapons and all warframes and helmets, you will stop playing. Because when there are no rewards left to get and rewards are what drives you forward, then you won't play without rewards. So DE has the job to keep you away from some of the rewards. And here is where Blaze comes into play. Keeping you from getting Blaze is bad, because it is needed. Hammershot is viable for crit rifle builds and this is exactly working for Soma, which is one of the most OP guns of the game.

 

But there still needs to be stuff to get.... or it gets boring. So you will have to accept that you cannot have all items, especially if you are not willing to put ridiculous amounts of time into the game. If you are the collectors type (like me), you might have to accept that you cannot have everything in life. It might be a valid goal, but unless you are hardhardhardcore gamer, you won't achieve this in most games.

 

So there is only one thing to discuss:

I still like RNG above a token system.... do you know why?

Because I hate it if I "must" do things. And when I want to farm Mag Prime and I see that I have to run 30 times T3 capt, 60 times T2 capt... and I can do the maths in my head that I will have to put 5 hours into getting the frame, it becomes work for me. And RNG does not matter for me. Because I play to meet people and to have fun. I am not waiting for drops, most of the time I have no clue, what drops where. I try to help people who need help and the rest comes along the way.

And this is what I meant with "it is you!". Because everything in life is dependent on a perspective. I think you might have played the game too long and too intensive.

 

But I completely respect you and your arguments. I might just have a different perspective.

[Dunkelheit]

@Cedric

I have forgotten this... the aspect of fun is lacking in this game. I give you that.

[Dunkelheit]

Secret to get what you want is to not want it.

 

 

These are wise, wise words, sir.

[ss4chris]

DE fix this S#&$. It's been months of me farming for hours everyday. Random RNG and grinding is not real content.

lol what? you been playing for months but missed out on  Nightmare weekend to get hammer shot?  your fault.

[AneiDoru]

Okay, everyone chill. I understand where OP is coming from, I got the base Frost Prime blueprint from the fusion moa event but only yesterday was able to finish it. He's not ASKING for the loot he's just frustrated like I was! Being only one piece away from a set but not being able to finish it, try after try after try, is disheartening in the least. It's okay for people to be frustrated about something they wholeheartedly believe to be unfair! Making him out to be a whiner just makes you sound uppity! Get your noses out of the air and think, maybe some of the drop rates need a slight tweak? After all, just because it's in-game doesn't mean it's final because this is still open BETA. Stop calling people entitled and whiny and maybe try to talk him down, not down AT him? Instead of bickering, maybe ask him nicely to send in a ticket to support to inquire on certain drop rates, I know that if it takes another 100 tries at this Rhino helmet blueprint I'll be doing the same thing myself.

[Kolos1001]

lol what? you been playing for months but missed out on  Nightmare weekend to get hammer shot?  your fault.

And what about new players? Do they deserve to be punished for no reason? This game is fun but it's not friendly to new players at all. I started after the nightmare weekend so does that mean I should have to grind for days with no sight of ever getting a mod no matter how hard I try?

 

Try thinking things through before you post something as ignorant again.

[Scherhardt]

Hahaha, chill. I don't know what to say in this thread.

[Ced23Ric]

You made a lot of good an relevant arguments, so I really feel sorry and would like to apologise.

 

I have played Everquest religiously.

Don't play a game, when the gameplay isn't fun. Because you can easily mix up "getting rewards" with "having fun". I don't know how old you are, but I have played a lot of games. And when I played Baldurs Gate II or Planescape Torment, I was not after items or wondered how to get them or how to make my character really strong. The gameplay was so good and intense, that I did not worry.

 

Still it leaves the question... if the rewards are so important, why do you still play the game? Because the gameplay seems to be lacking when only rewards are driving your forward. And this is what I meant. RNG is a S#&$ty system for rewads, I'll give you that.

 

Once you have all weapons and all warframes and helmets, you will stop playing. Because when there are no rewards left to get and rewards are what drives you forward, then you won't play without rewards. So DE has the job to keep you away from some of the rewards. So you will have to accept that you cannot have all items, especially if you are not willing to put ridiculous amounts of time into the game. If you are the collectors type (like me), you might have to accept that you cannot have everything in life. It might be a valid goal, but unless you are hardhardhardcore gamer, you won't achieve this in most games.

I still like RNG above a token system.... do you know why? Because I hate it if I "must" do things.

 

Accepted. No hard feelings implied.

Everquest is ... old. '99, eh? Not the best example for contemporary game design. ;)

Agreed. But the problem is: Warframe has nothing but rewards as incentives. There is no story, bosses aren't unique runs, but get murdered 50 times in a row, there is hardly any cohesions or feeling of progress other than levels and the missions themselves are the same thing over and over. There is no variance. The journey is not part of the goal, only the drop counts, because the rest ist bland and repetitive. This has been feedbacked for a long time now. I started playing on the Amiga 500 and my first own machine was 286 with 33MHz. Played Dune and Dune 2, around '92. Should give you a rough reference.

I stopped playing Warframe. There is nothing left to gain here, except for Surefooted, Shockabsorbers, Firestorm, Self-Destruct and Undying Will. And I cannot be bothered to hunt those down. Warframe failed to make the journey part of the goal, for me, and after running so many missions, there are just no more surprises. The added content is quickly dissected, because it is the same. We have been pleading with DE to spice up missions and levels with multiple ideas (Infested in elevator shafts, minibosses roaming the missions, grander mission chains with split squads, fighting through cruisers - you name it.) but that has not received recognition yet.

But none of that, even if implemented, makes an RNG system good. And a RNG percentage is harder to tweak (retains outliers) than a clear effort/reward system. If 1% becomes 5%, it's 5 times as much, but people might still not get it. If The Djinn costs 7 Mutagen instead of 15, it is a tangible reduction in cost and time. See where this goes?

RNG as a core gameplay element when rewards is all you have is weak.

 

Instead of bickering, maybe ask him nicely to send in a ticket to support to inquire on certain drop rates, I know that if it takes another 100 tries at this Rhino helmet blueprint I'll be doing the same thing myself.

 

We know that Hammershot has a droprate of 1.05%, just like Blaze. The data is available (thanks to dataminers), although DE didn't want that data to be in the wild.

[mrfluffydeath]

Accepted. No hard feelings implied.

Everquest is ... old. '99, eh? Not the best example for contemporary game design. ;)

Agreed. But the problem is: Warframe has nothing but rewards as incentives. There is no story, bosses aren't unique runs, but get murdered 50 times in a row, there is hardly any cohesions or feeling of progress other than levels and the missions themselves are the same thing over and over. There is no variance. The journey is not part of the goal, only the drop counts, because the rest ist bland and repetitive. This has been feedbacked for a long time now. I started playing on the Amiga 500 and my first own machine was 286 with 33MHz. Played Dune and Dune 2, around '92. Should give you a rough reference.

I stopped playing Warframe. There is nothing left to gain here, except for Surefooted, Shockabsorbers, Firestorm, Self-Destruct and Undying Will. And I cannot be bothered to hunt those down. Warframe failed to make the journey part of the goal, for me, and after running so many missions, there are just no more surprises. The added content is quickly dissected, because it is the same. We have been pleading with DE to spice up missions and levels with multiple ideas (Infested in elevator shafts, minibosses roaming the missions, grander mission chains with split squads, fighting through cruisers - you name it.) but that has not received recognition yet.

But none of that, even if implemented, makes an RNG system good. And a RNG percentage is harder to tweak (retains outliers) than a clear effort/reward system. If 1% becomes 5%, it's 5 times as much, but people might still not get it. If The Djinn costs 7 Mutagen instead of 15, it is a tangible reduction in cost and time. See where this goes?

RNG as a core gameplay element when rewards is all you have is weak.

 

 

We know that Hammershot has a droprate of 1.05%, just like Blaze. The data is available (thanks to dataminers), although DE didn't want that data to be in the wild.

Their Gating mechanism for new content also exploits RNG. Smack a box, open a locker, roll the dice, get a Nav Coordinate.

If you truly want to be horrified by the RNG. Consider the droprate of any part to come out of the Void. I have used all my void keys. I still don't have a Braton Prime Barrel. The .17% chance for a specific type of Void key to drop means that in total entering a mission I have a .645% chance, statistically, that the end result of that mission will lead to a Braton Prime Barrel.

 

Of course because it is all Random Number Generated, it doesn't care about statistics. It doesn't care about what I want, What I need, how many times I've already done this,  or what I ran before. So my Run for the void key could go off without a hitch and the BAM the Tier 3 Void Defense key drops first time, (not exploiting the vact that a tier 3 Cappture right now has equal chance to drop the barrel and is far easier than Defense) or it could take me 5 runs, or 10, or 13, or I might not get the key before I have to go to bed because I have to get some sleep, but lets assume I get a key. RNG Does not care what I went through, It is a weighted Dice Roll, such that anything in the first 37.ish% is the Barrel but again, the RNG does not care. Grind to grind again. It is work. It's not hard work. It is just work. It is not fun.

[Phoenix86]

My nightmares atm are: Blaze + Whirlwind

[General_Krull]

My nightmares atm are: Blaze + Whirlwind

I got both. Jellymuch? I actually got 2 blazes.

[Dunkelheit]

I miss Blaze... a lot

[tripletriple]

So I got blaze for like the fourth time, yet no hammershot. Great to see people realizing that RNG is a problem. No I am not complaining it is the fact that this si not real gameplay. There is no hardwork involved (I have put tons of hours into it with no reward) when someone can do ojne mission and get it. Then people are comparing the real life lottery to a game meant to be fun? Really?

Edited October 2, 2013 by tripletriple

[Alohoe]

there is a big difference between getting everything you want and farming hard to get what you want just to have rng screw you. any 1% drop rate is BS.  period.

i actually like the rng system. all they need to do is make the nightmare rares more like prime rares at around 11%. this would be more acceptable in my opinion.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Alohoe

[Guest]

nightmare Tokens please

[Kolos1001]

 It is work. It's not hard work. It is just work. It is not fun.

 

This. It's not fun. And not being fun is the worst thing for a game.

[VegetableBasket]

I have two, I'll sell you my second one for plat once they add trading.

But if you're farming NM, use loki with rush and maglev and invisibility, just Zorencopter a capture mission on a grineer galleon ship, it's the fastest way. The galleons don't have elevators or giant rooms.

Edited October 3, 2013 by VegetableBasket