The oddities that are the select-fire guns

[DoAnyOfTheseWork]

When I was able to get my hands on the Kuva Hind I couldn't help but think. "Why would I want to switch fire modes on this in the middle of a mission?" And then this made me question if I ever thought of this with the other primaries that have multiple fire modes, and I am not sure.

But now that I have 5 forma on my K. Hind I looked back at the guns I remembered and briefly looked them over on the wiki (called Hybrids, huh) and I must say, could we get some consistency here DE?

While things like Fire Rate (FR), Accuracy (ACC), Critical Chance (CC), Critical Damage (CD) and Status Chance (SC) change between the modes, (usually with the pattern that a slower FR = more CC, CD and/or SC) the damage between the modes and how it is dealt vary widely.

The Tiberon P. and the Argonak (the former has 3 modes while the later has 2) share the exact same damage between all modes. That is whether in Semi or Auto (or Burst for the TP) these modes will deal a total of 57 damage for the Argonak and 46 damage for the Tiberon P.

Meanwhile our newest hybrid, the K. Hind, has three fire modes where the Auto and Burst both deal a total of 30 damage BUT how the damage is shared between Impact, Puncture and Slash (IPS) is different (with I/P/S = 7.5/7.5/15 for the Burst and 6/6/18 for the Auto...not sure if that 3 converted to slash is that big of a deal). Then the Semi mode does 90 total damage (18/18/54) but to compound this confusing mess each shot fires three rounds per shot. Meaning the damage is equivalent to 3x the auto mode, but really not since the shot is 1 big round that just so happens to consume three rounds...this is an odd gun if you ask me.

But let's not stop there; The Zenith has a unique function when selecting the fire mode in its tossing out a disk that reveals enemy positions in a certain radius from the disk. On top of that each mode kind of has its own distinct usage; the Auto mode has a high SC with low CC and CD, while the Semi has an abysmal SC but very high CC and CD. So there is this design of the Auto mod being your status inducing gun with your Semi mode for sniping targets further away. ON TOP OF THAT the Semi mode has (i think) INFINITE PUNCH THROUGH, and since it highlights enemies as whatever your energy color dots being objects you can kill enemies before you even see them. It also shares the damage change like the K. Hind, but in a less head scratching way where the Auto does 30 damage per shot, and the Semi does 150 damage per shot but consumes 3 rounds as well so it's like the gun fused its projectiles before each shot. The only real complaint I have about this selective fire is the fact that it needs to have that disc launching mechanic which can be cumbersome.

The Stradavar P. is probably the most sensible of all these though if you ask me. It has only two modes, Auto and Semi, and you can switch between them with no disc or any sort of hindrance. The Auto mode is a low-damage with a decent CC, a high CD, and a low SC while the Semi mode is a higher damage that increase all three stats to a degree and has an innate 1 meter punch through. However the FR between the two modes will be making you switch to and from depending on your target. This is just a neat, straight forward assault type gun where you can mow down fodder targets in Auto but if a heavier unit comes at you or something is behind a shield or wall you can switch to the Semi and dispatch them with ease. The only real complaint is I kind of wish I could just push the middle mouse button to shoot the Semi round, but perhaps the switch is to give it some balance. Which I can understand.

So with this wall of text all I am trying to say is that the guns with a select fire mode need to have some consistency. Why can't the Tiberon P and Argonak have some innate punch through in their Semi modes like the Stradavar P. and Zenith? Is perhaps having 3 different modes on one gun overkill, and the Tiberon P. and K. Hind loose their Auto modes and stick with a Burst/Semi selection? Why can't I choose which mode I want to default to at the start of a mission?

As for other hybrid guns like the Battacor, Tenoram and Quellor, well they don'y have a selective fire so much as an alternative charge type fire so I didn't want to compare them. As for the Harpak...what about it, does anyone use it?

If anything I would love to see DE incorporate more select fire hybrid type guns like the Fulmin. That is, and I doubt this can happen because spaghetti code, I would love to see the hind be only a Burst or Semi mode gun, BUT the Burst uses rifle ammo while the Semi uses Shotgun ammo and each are treated like their respective ammo types. Now how this is implemented I can offer some ideas, but I doubt they would be used:

1. When modding the gun have an arrow where you can switch between and 8+1 mod capacity rifle and a 8+1 mod capacity shotgun and treat the one gun like it is two.

2. Increase mode capacity to say 14+1 exilus, where you can fit in at most 8 rifles mods + 6 shotgun OR 8 shotgun mods + 6 rifle mods or some mix. The mod applied would only affect that aspect of the gun so you could put in a Primed Cold Rifle and a Primed Electric Shotgun but have it only apply to the gun it is meant to do so.

I don't know, at most I hope DE sees this and just goes back to work on some of these select fire guns and bring them all up to some standard (for this player personally, something mirroring the Stradavar P. or Zenith)

Edited February 22, 2020 by DoAnyOfTheseWork

[taiiat]

consistency would imply that these Weapons with 72 Fire Modes had a plan to begin with, rather than just stapling random Fire Modes onto stuff because if it has more Fire Modes then it's obviously better somehow. even though on each of these Weapons only one Fire Mode is essentially ever worth using.

some have actual intent behind them though, but then there are some others like Hind, Tiberon, Stradavar that.... well their Fire Modes don't really have a purpose to them.

[CopperBezel]

Yeah, the alt-fires can be very good, like the Battacor and Quellor, but the alternate firing modes rarely are. And in most cases, it's the default fire mode that's had the most care put it. Certainly the case with the Stradavar and Tiberon Prime, although I haven't actually used the semi-auto mode on the Stradavar Prime after never finding a use for it on the regular version and not even really trying it when the Prime came out. 

That said, they're struggling for some kind of uniqueness by including them at all, so I think consistency is maybe the wrong thing to look for. And in the case of the Zenith, it's part of the set - all three Z-name login weapons have a disc gimmick mode that does something wacky, so the Zenith goes all the way in on its timed alt firing mode with entirely different stats, a headshot radar mine, and infinite punchthrough. Kind of a pain since the Zenith is a pure status gun normally but needs crit for the alt mode.

[Tiltskillet]

I'm not really bothered by the inconsistencies in these weapons.   They're different, and that's fine. I do wish some of their modes were a little better, or better balanced, or that the whole weapon was a lot better in a few cases.  (Hello Argonak.)  But that's more of a problem with weapon balance in general, not something intrinsic to select-fire.

Just now, CopperBezel said:

And in most cases, it's the default fire mode that's had the most care put it. Certainly the case with the Stradavar and Tiberon Prime, although I haven't actually used the semi-auto mode on the Stradavar Prime after never finding a use for it on the regular version and not even really trying it when the Prime came out. 

I like the Strad Prime in semi-auto quite well, and I use its full auto for little more than an anti-bubble option.   But you probably have to enjoy scopeless semi-auto rifle play in the first place, and it's not like most of the game exactly rewards it.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Tiltskillet

[OmegaVoid]

On 2020-02-22 at 5:14 AM, DoAnyOfTheseWork said:

As for the Harpak...what about it, does anyone use it?

For me the main reason I'd take Harpak/Paracyst is the possibility to use the alt-fire on an Ancient or Scorpion, and holler "Hah! See how you like it, byaaatches"! as I drag them across the tile. Is very satisfying 😃.

On 2020-02-22 at 8:15 AM, Tiltskillet said:

I'm not really bothered by the inconsistencies in these weapons.   They're different, and that's fine. I do wish some of their modes were a little better, or better balanced

Agreed. When one fire mode is blatantly more effective in all situations, it seems pointless for the other fire mode to even be there.

On 2020-02-22 at 5:14 AM, DoAnyOfTheseWork said:

"Why would I want to switch fire modes on this in the middle of a mission?"

Well, quite. Personally I find selective fire to be clunky and inconvenient. I vastly prefer the feel of weapons with an alt-fire on MMB like the original Hind, Phantasma, Nagantaka, etc.