@DE Umbra's Sentience NEEDS TO GO

[nooneyouknow13]

46 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

Don't like the extra stuff on Umbra? Don't use it.

There's no reason of stripping Umbra of something that makes him unique so that you can run around with a better non-Umbra Excal.

It's not "poor design choices", you just don't like the design and are upset because it has better stats. Don't like what Umbra is? Don't use him. It's simple as that, you're not forced to use him in anyway and demanding sentience be removed is demanding that another frame be trashed because you like it's numbers better.

You don't get it. Assume you've used 3 umbral forma on Base Excal here - Excalibur is with 3pc Umbral, Primed Flow, and Quick Thinking has 6,675 EHP. Umbra, with the same mods, has 10,083. That's 51% more EHP. If shields are down, Excal easily dies to a single grenade or bombard rocket in level 80+ content. Umbra does not. You use adaptation instead of Quick Thinking? Still massively in Umbras favor, as Excal has a potential 3,417 EHP vs Umbra's 4,198. That's still 23% more EHP on Umbra. The only way to remotely bring Excal's survival to par with Umbra's, is with Arcane Guardian, which means giving up either Avenger, a massive damage increase, or Energize, Excal's main form of energy management.

You keep acting like this is some minor difference between them. It's not. It's a huge difference in survivability and quality of life. Umbra is meant to be the Excal Prime replacement for non-founders. He is almost that. Something as simple as being able to toggle his sentience off and on via helminth before missions would fix everything. And considering the "essence of umbra" scrapped content, it shouldn't be far out of the realm of reason either.

[SpringRocker]

4 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

You don't get it. Assume you've used 3 umbral forma on Base Excal here - Excalibur is with 3pc Umbral, Primed Flow, and Quick Thinking has 6,675 EHP. Umbra, with the same mods, has 10,083. That's 51% more EHP. If shields are down, Excal easily dies to a single grenade or bombard rocket in level 80+ content. Umbra does not. You use adaptation instead of Quick Thinking? Still massively in Umbras favor, as Excal has a potential 3,417 EHP vs Umbra's 4,198. That's still 23% more EHP on Umbra. The only way to remotely bring Excal's survival to par with Umbra's, is with Arcane Guardian, which means giving up either Avenger, a massive damage increase, or Energize, Excal's main form of energy management.

You keep acting like this is some minor difference between them. It's not. It's a huge difference in survivability and quality of life. Umbra is meant to be the Excal Prime replacement for non-founders. He is almost that. Something as simple as being able to toggle his sentience off and on via helminth before missions would fix everything. And considering the "essence of umbra" scrapped content, it shouldn't be far out of the realm of reason either.

No, I get it. You guys want what makes Umbra special removed.

If you were really concerned about EHP you'd know that ultimately it doesn't it doesn't matter in high level content. Not only that but there's a stupid broken frame mod combo that makes Umbra vitality and quick thinking irrelevant (not to mention energize irrelevent at the same time). Even arcane ultimatum does a better job than Guardian for Excal. Don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about because I promise that's not the case.

It's a relatively small difference when considering you're talking about changing a frame's fundamentals and scraping his whole concept.

Edited March 23, 2020 by SpringRocker

[nooneyouknow13]

1 hour ago, SpringRocker said:

No, I get it. You guys want what makes Umbra special removed.

If you were really concerned about EHP you'd know that ultimately it doesn't it doesn't matter in high level content. Not only that but there's a stupid broken frame mod combo that makes Umbra vitality and quick thinking irrelevant (not to mention energize irrelevent at the same time). Even arcane ultimatum does a better job than Guardian for Excal. Don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about because I promise that's not the case.

It's a relatively small difference when considering you're talking about changing a frame's fundamentals and scraping his whole concept.

 

5 hours ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

Something as simple as being able to toggle his sentience off and on via helminth before missions would fix everything. And considering the "essence of umbra" scrapped content, it shouldn't be far out of the realm of reason either.

 

[SpringRocker]

6 minutes ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

Something as simple as being able to toggle his sentience off and on via helminth before missions would fix everything. And considering the "essence of umbra" scrapped content, it shouldn't be far out of the realm of reason either.

The game doesn't need to cater to you. Changing how a frame works because you don't like it (but want to take it's stats) is ridiculous.

Edited March 23, 2020 by SpringRocker

[Zalabim]

1 minute ago, SpringRocker said:

The game doesn't need to cater to you. Changing how a frame works because you don't like (but want to take it's stats) it is ridiculous.

So something like an exilus mod that removes the passive -friction or passive -gravity of a frame could never happen.

[SpringRocker]

5 minutes ago, Zalabim said:

So something like an exilus mod that removes the passive -friction or passive -gravity of a frame could never happen.

Not quite the same thing, he's talking about removing Umbra's passive (sentience) so it can be an regular Excal with higher stats.

Edited March 23, 2020 by SpringRocker

[Althaline]

1 hour ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

You're both in here arguing against fixes and work arounds on something you've barely spent any time with at all.

I wouldn't call over a day of in-mission time "barely any". I've spent enough time with Umbra to understand what it is that I like about him, and one of those things is his independence from my Operator. I'm not entirely opposed to the option to turn it off, but I'd imagine such things are an extremely low priority and would likely cause as many bugs as it would fix. I'll also say that I am definitely against the permanent removal of Umbra's passive.

[nooneyouknow13]

8 minutes ago, Iamabearlulz said:

I wouldn't call over a day of in-mission time "barely any". I've spent enough time with Umbra to understand what it is that I like about him, and one of those things is his independence from my Operator. I'm not entirely opposed to the option to turn it off, but I'd imagine such things are an extremely low priority and would likely cause as many bugs as it would fix. I'll also say that I am definitely against the permanent removal of Umbra's passive.

In the context of people tired of running into game breaking bugs week in, and week out, that you claim to have never seen, yeah, it's barely any. The spectre passives only has 2 real uses, sniping in the Index, and sniping in spy vaults. He's in every other way worse than a normal spectre would be. I really like the idea of the passive, but at least 80% of my 250 aborted missions are due to how buggy it is. Imagine you had to abandon 1 in 5 missions over level 80 on your second most used warframe, who is otherwise extremely good and extremely fun in the content. And that this is an issue for almost 2 years.

Oh, and this issue still existing, right after melee 3.0 nerfed slash dash into complete uselessness. And then a system wide status change that also requires the augment that makes 1 of his 2 functional skills, functional.

Edited March 23, 2020 by nooneyouknow13

[Yunjuwo]

5 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

No, I get it. You guys want what makes Umbra special removed.

If you were really concerned about EHP you'd know that ultimately it doesn't it doesn't matter in high level content. Not only that but there's a stupid broken frame mod combo that makes Umbra vitality and quick thinking irrelevant (not to mention energize irrelevent at the same time). Even arcane ultimatum does a better job than Guardian for Excal. Don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about because I promise that's not the case.

It's a relatively small difference when considering you're talking about changing a frame's fundamentals and scraping his whole concept.

Umbra is "special" in the same way mentally challenged kids from my high school were called "special". Didn't feel good getting screamed at by them, but I kinda want to scream at Umbra...

Also, what "high level content" are you talking about, exactly? Actual upcoming high level content that DE keeps pumping out with ability immune enemies that sit at a reasonably high level, or fighting level *insert ridiculous number here* enemies that you'll see after you spend the whole day in one mission? Because if it's the latter, that's not real difficulty when you can cheese it with practically anything, and it sure isn't rewarding unless leaderboards are a thing you care about. In the case of the former, yes, the boosted ehp that Excalibur Umbra has over Excalibur does in fact matter within the scope of this forum post. We're not talking about Octavia, or Nidus, or Wukong, or Ivara, or whoever you had in mind. They don't matter at all here, nor should those mods you were thinking about matter, either. This is about Excalibur Umbra's passive, and how it ruins some people's enjoyment of him.

 

The following is not directed solely towards the author of the quote above, but to anyone who also holds similar thoughts.

 

If you don't like him, don't play him.
I DO like him. I WANT to like him more. That's why I'm here, writing this up at God knows what hour when I'd rather go to bed.

You only like Excalibur Umbra as an Excalibur with bigger numbers.
That goes for literally every single person in this game and anyone who says otherwise is a liar. They're called Primes, and thinking rationally for just a minute without chanting LORE LORE LORE like some kind of demonic, lore-worshipping cult, that's essentially what the intention was when DE made Umbra. An Excalibur Prime that isn't literally Excalibur Prime.

So you DO like Umbra just because of his bigger numbers. That's pathetic.
No, that's just being practical. Seriously. Bigger. Numbers. BIGGER. Numbers. I... I don't understand why I need to explain the concept of enjoying bigger numbers being a rational and sane response. Like, am I supposed to be satisfied with a lesser-quality item, like some masochist? 'Cause I don't roll that way. Do you?

Umbra isn't just "bigger numbers". Sentience is what makes him special, makes him Umbra.
Yes, and it's actually terrible.

Sentience is terrible? I bet you don't even play Umbra and are just making this up.
My username in-game is the same name that you see here on forums. Do a profile check if you want. Over two years of warframe playtime. At least 8 hours a day, everyday(even during that one time when I took a trip from California to Texas, and then back). Excalibur everyday, in every piece of content, with multiple builds, multiple weapons, until Umbra arrived, at which point I completely switched over to Excalibur Umbra. I'm not some Warframe 1.0 OG player, but I believe I deserve my say in what Excalibur Umbra needs. I also believe that all those times in, again, every piece of content, where Umbra bugged out, or went off on his own because he felt like ruining the mission for me that day, weren't hallucinations. Yes I did just lose mobile defense in the blink of an eye because Umbra got radiation proc'ed and proceeded to sneeze on it while I was using operator to revive a teammate. Yes I did just get vaporized the instant I went back into Umbra because his favorite breakfast cereal is Heavy's Gorgon-flavored Bullets. Yes I did just lose all my bonus damage since Umbra decided to shred the remaining armor off the boss with Shattering Impact. Yes I did just get permanently stuck since Umbra bugged through the map floor and now I have no choice but to abort mission and lose everything. Yes I did suffer all these examples and countless others, not just once, but multiple times, each. Don't tell me it didn't happen. It happened. It ALL happened. And it all hurt.

Well I still like Umbra's Sentience and because we're at odds with each other, I'm going to argue against you so that you never have your wish of removing Umbra's Sentience, come true.
I just suggested a whole list of changes to Umbra that are more additions than actual changes. None of these proposed changes even make Umbra super outstanding either, in case anyone's thinking "oh it's too game breaking and he gets so much stuff therefore Umbra can't have it"(when there are so many other things that are actually game breaking). In fact, these changes are more like bandages than anything. If anything, they'll only serve to improve the gameplay experience of those like me who see Sentience as the poorly designed, buggy passive that it is, while not interfering with those that (can somehow) currently enjoy the passive.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Yun_Woo-Seok

[Aesthier]

I don't want his sentience to go i just want the bugs fixed.

 

So my vote is no to your suggestion.

[SpringRocker]

8 hours ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

Sentience is terrible? I bet you don't even play Umbra and are just making this up.

Never said this.

8 hours ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

Well I still like Umbra's Sentience and because we're at odds with each other, I'm going to argue against you so that you never have your wish of removing Umbra's Sentience, come true.

Nor this.

 

8 hours ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

You only like Excalibur Umbra as an Excalibur with bigger numbers.
That goes for literally every single person in this game and anyone who says otherwise is a liar. They're called Primes, and thinking rationally for just a minute without chanting LORE LORE LORE like some kind of demonic, lore-worshipping cult, that's essentially what the intention was when DE made Umbra. An Excalibur Prime that isn't literally Excalibur Prime.

So his whole concept should be scraped because you don't like Sentience?

He's not supposed to be some non-Prime Prime loophole. He's not a replacement for Excal Prime. He's his own concept and you're wanting to scrape that. You don't like Umbra, you want his passive to be stripped down to basic Excal so you have non-prime Excal with higher stats.

[(XBOX)WolfKingLeo]

how about

[Yunjuwo]

1 hour ago, SpringRocker said:

Never said this.

Nor this.

 

So his whole concept should be scraped because you don't like Sentience?

He's not supposed to be some non-Prime Prime loophole. He's not a replacement for Excal Prime. He's his own concept and you're wanting to scrape that. You don't like Umbra, you want his passive to be stripped down to basic Excal so you have non-prime Excal with higher stats.

If you didn't think that

10 hours ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

The following is not directed solely towards the author of the quote above, but to anyone who also holds similar thoughts.

then I apologize for my brash assumptions as I was trying to cover all the possible bases... But are you kidding me? I don't know how many times I've said it now but I'll say it again. Yes, I firmly believe that Umbra would be better off with Sentience removed altogether, but even I'm willing to put up with it, if it receives my suggested changes fixes. The conversation has evolved from the original topic and it's like you're refusing to see that.

7 hours ago, Aesthier said:

I don't want his sentience to go i just want the bugs fixed.

 

So my vote is no to your suggestion.

I want the bugs fixed too. I also now want some additions to improve the gameplay experience of the passive for everyone, instead of just removing Sentience. Did you read those suggestions?

1 hour ago, (XB1)WolfKingLeo said:

how about

How about reading the past posts first to see how the conversation has developed, before just giving the most ambiguous "no", ever?

[(XBOX)WolfKingLeo]

24 minutes ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

If you didn't think that

then I apologize for my brash assumptions as I was trying to cover all the possible bases... But are you kidding me? I don't know how many times I've said it now but I'll say it again. Yes, I firmly believe that Umbra would be better off with Sentience removed altogether, but even I'm willing to put up with it, if it receives my suggested changes fixes. The conversation has evolved from the original topic and it's like you're refusing to see that.

I want the bugs fixed too. I also now want some additions to improve the gameplay experience of the passive for everyone, instead of just removing Sentience. Did you read those suggestions?

How about reading the past posts first to see how the conversation has developed, before just giving the most ambiguous "no", ever?

i already read the posts and before it was edited so please don't start something that is going to get out of hand

Edited March 23, 2020 by (XB1)WolfKingLeo

[Aesthier]

2 hours ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:

10 hours ago, Aesthier said:

I don't want his sentience to go i just want the bugs fixed.

 

So my vote is no to your suggestion.

I want the bugs fixed too. I also now want some additions to improve the gameplay experience of the passive for everyone, instead of just removing Sentience. Did you read those suggestions?

Of course I have read the entire thread.

Again, other than the bugs, I enjoy Umbra as it currently is. Therefore...

My vote is no to your suggested changes.

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Aesthier

[Yunjuwo]

4 hours ago, (XB1)WolfKingLeo said:

so please don't start something that is going to get out of hand

Ditto