15 Minute Survival - Impossible For Some

[Fulmir]

Actually that is the 'spawn mechanic' that you wish was explained better.

 

Those enemies only spawned because you got near. They did not exist until you moved towards them. Once spawned, enemies will run towards players. So no they weren't taking up space nor preventing anything else from spawning.

 

Sure they were, once they spawn they'll continue to keep trying to move toward the player, but they don't appear to despawn on their own, at least not on a map the size of a pre-evac route Void tower. If you can't kill them, or don't know that you've triggered the spawns they will very much reduce the number of enemies present on the map. If enemies just spawned infinitely the host's computer would be quickly overwhelmed by the number of actors it has to process and pass data on.

 

You also seem to be assuming that I don't have at least some understanding of the spawn mechanics, how they work, and how to abuse them. I do, I just don't feel that I should have to give a 20 minute lecture every time I want to do a Void survival mission, nor should players be required to make use of black-box mechanics to achieve a par level of play.

 

It just simply seems the life support pack drop chance from mobs in Voids are lower than standard survival. Like I said non void survivals are easy, most times I can stomp and get anywhere from 4-8 life support packs from a nice group of what ever faction, but that just does not seem to occur in the void. 

 

Doesn't help much that Corrupted Fusion Moa and Ospreys don't seem to drop Life Support packs, and the former become quite common at around 10 minutes.

[PapaKicks]

Sure they were, once they spawn they'll continue to keep trying to move toward the player, but they don't appear to despawn on their own, at least not on a map the size of a pre-evac route Void tower. If you can't kill them, or don't know that you've triggered the spawns they will very much reduce the number of enemies present on the map. If enemies just spawned infinitely the host's computer would be quickly overwhelmed by the number of actors it has to process and pass data on.

 

You also seem to be assuming that I don't have at least some understanding of the spawn mechanics, how they work, and how to abuse them. I do, I just don't feel that I should have to give a 20 minute lecture every time I want to do a Void survival mission, nor should players be required to make use of black-box mechanics to achieve a par level of play.

 

Except that based on what you just wrote, you do not understand how they work...

The 20 enemies you mentioned would run to a player, and be killed, or kill. So how do they affect the total spawn count exactly? Other than the time it takes for them to find a player?

Spawns only appear if you move to the right spots. Example : If you go to the very end of a dead-end, virtually no enemies (1 in 5 min?) will spawn in the dead-end. They will all come running towards you from the other enterances. But as you back away from the dead-end, (50, 100 yards?) you will eventually reach a distance that will allow enemies to spawn from the dead-end. If you move forward again, the spawns will stop.

AGAIN - I am not arguing that you should "abuse" spawn mechanics to succeed. What I AM trying to say is that there are two completely different strategies, one works great, one not so much.

 

The one that works great is when you find a spot with lots of enemies, and just camp out waiting for them to come to you. If it is a good spot, you will never run out of things to kill. The OTHER strategy, the one you apparently use(d), was to run from room to room killing everything in sight, and never staying in one spot for too long.

In other words, why would you choose to use a strategy that doesn't work, versus one that does - REGARDLESS of _WHY_ it works?

[Renkai141]

Honestly in my opinion. I think the life support(coming from Lotus) should give MORE oxygen % depending on how low it is.<br />let's say there is a 5% left, and u get the life support instead of giving 30% it would give 50%.<br />At this point i think that's the cure for it at this point. Obviously the enemies don't drop enough but with a descent life support it should be able to balance it out in some case.

[taiiat]

In other words, why would you choose to use a strategy that doesn't work, versus one that does - REGARDLESS of _WHY_ it works?

i think the real question, is why does Strategy #2 NOT work(reliably).

Edited October 20, 2013 by taiiat

[PapaKicks]

i think the real question, is why does Strategy #2 NOT work(reliably).

 

Now that I can agree with.

[goozilla]

I've run into the same situations pretty often with enemies not spawning while soloing and end up as another case of asphyxiation.

But this only applies before the 20 minute mark. After that, S#&amp;&#036; just won't stop spawning, and they're mostly heavy units. Basically, survival boils down to wrestling with RNG for both enemies spawning and for oxygen units to drop, then getting stunlocked by an army of heavies smashing the ground. Would actually appreciate survival more if they had a kill-for-oxygen gauge, rather than ISWEARTOGODYOUBETTERNOTUSEALLTHEOXYGENASIPLANTBULLETSINYOURFACE.

[Jathniel]

You sure it's impossible? I did a Survival earlier and it wasn't that bad.

Try changing your method for turning on Lotus' life capsule?

I usually get to the capsule first, and wait until my life support is at 70% before I use it. This gives Lotus time to drop a 2nd and 3rd capsule, especially if I keep the life support above 70% by killing enemies and taking their capsules.

[101010]

We just did 2 Tower 3 void survival missions in a row and we just couldn't get to 15min. Impossible. We where killing everything and no capsule drops, like one every 20 corrupted. And the spawn was horrible. There where times when we where waiting for like 20 sec without any spawn or just 2-3 in some corners hiding.

 

This is not a problem in skill or gear. We where all eng-game geared (Flux Rifle, Galatine, Spectra on a Nova for me all potatoed and nearly maxed in mods) and we had maybe to revive just one guy during the whole run. So even after instantly killing nearly every enemy before my eyes with my ulti and flux/galatine no drops... Seriously the drops need to be increased no better, rigged !

 

How to rig ? Well make a drop rate of X for personal life supports, then count the number of drops that dropped in the last 10 sec per mob killed, if its to low increase it by a certain % to reach a certain quota if to high decrease. Just an idea but it would make it "possible" to last nearly indefinably if players are able to kill enemies so that it won't depend just purely on RNG but on skill / gear.

 

Oh and as some have pointed it out, the spawn is horrible. We shouldn't be forced to run around looking for mobs because they spawned on the other part of the map. Moving around should only be due to life support capsule drops. Coordinated moving not a random mob hunt. So if you could make it so that mobs de-spawned from areas no player is right now that would be great.

[DestinyEight]

Same problem as the user above, just not enough oxygen dropping from any enemy fraction, it's the same in all the maps for me. I've also had a problem where the capsules from Lotus stop spawning after like 5 minutes or so.

[PapaKicks]

I like the +O2 per kill as someone suggested. I think something similar to timed nightmare mode would be ideal. Each kill worth 5 seconds of oxygen etc. However it would have to be fine-tuned for survival missions. Whenever I get timed nightmare runs I always end the mission having gained 5 minutes. So maybe something like 1 or 2 seconds of oxygen per kill for example.

This would remove loot chance RNG from the equation, leaving only number of enemy spawns deciding your fate. It would be a good start I think.

BTW - I thought I read harder (longer?) survival runs give reduced life support. Less drops, capsules give less and come less often. Could that be the issue? Void starts at "hard" rather than "easy" or "normal"?

[DBHAShadow]

Frustrating to see such a real discussion getting thrown off often by these people who don't understand the thread. 1: it's about void survival missions  2: it's not about getting killed but not getting enough o2 drops from mobs.

 

Non void missions are cake, it's easy to survive on average to 30-40 minutes with non max frames if you play right. I hope DE really looks into this o2 dropping issue for the void survival missions. 

[PapaKicks]

Frustrating to see such a real discussion getting thrown off often by these people who don't understand the thread. 1: it's about void survival missions  2: it's not about getting killed but not getting enough o2 drops from mobs.

 

Non void missions are cake, it's easy to survive on average to 30-40 minutes with non max frames if you play right. I hope DE really looks into this o2 dropping issue for the void survival missions. 

 

Blame the thread title for that. It is knee-jerk inducing, and not specific enough.

[TheWackyWombat]

One issue I've noticed reciently, mostly due to one of the guys I was running with using enemy radar, is that in some missions there seems to be locked / unaccessable rooms that mobs spawn in early in the mission and are unable to get out of. I'm not sure if there's a limit to the number of mobs that can spawn early on in survivals, but I've found that the number of 'Free' mobs is quite low until we find that room and if the wave is cleared with AoE/melee the spawns seem to get much better.

 

Just an observation.

[DBHAShadow]

Blame the thread title for that. It is knee-jerk inducing, and not specific enough.

 

 

Still is it too much to ask people to read the OP? lol

[From_Orion]

One issue I've noticed reciently, mostly due to one of the guys I was running with using enemy radar, is that in some missions there seems to be locked / unaccessable rooms that mobs spawn in early in the mission and are unable to get out of. I'm not sure if there's a limit to the number of mobs that can spawn early on in survivals, but I've found that the number of 'Free' mobs is quite low until we find that room and if the wave is cleared with AoE/melee the spawns seem to get much better.

 

Just an observation.

Exactly, removing all the blocked doors for any survival map would solve part of this problem linked to spawned enemies not appearing/not releasing O2.

[PapaKicks]

Still is it too much to ask people to read the OP? lol

 

No. Is it too much to ask to name the thread more accurately?

[Fulmir]

Except that based on what you just wrote, you do not understand how they work...

The 20 enemies you mentioned would run to a player, and be killed, or kill. So how do they affect the total spawn count exactly? Other than the time it takes for them to find a player?

Spawns only appear if you move to the right spots. Example : If you go to the very end of a dead-end, virtually no enemies (1 in 5 min?) will spawn in the dead-end. They will all come running towards you from the other enterances. But as you back away from the dead-end, (50, 100 yards?) you will eventually reach a distance that will allow enemies to spawn from the dead-end. If you move forward again, the spawns will stop.

AGAIN - I am not arguing that you should "abuse" spawn mechanics to succeed. What I AM trying to say is that there are two completely different strategies, one works great, one not so much.

 

The one that works great is when you find a spot with lots of enemies, and just camp out waiting for them to come to you. If it is a good spot, you will never run out of things to kill. The OTHER strategy, the one you apparently use(d), was to run from room to room killing everything in sight, and never staying in one spot for too long.

In other words, why would you choose to use a strategy that doesn't work, versus one that does - REGARDLESS of _WHY_ it works?

 

You're misunderstanding me, I'm referring to what the person quoted below is describing:

 

One issue I've noticed reciently, mostly due to one of the guys I was running with using enemy radar, is that in some missions there seems to be locked / unaccessable rooms that mobs spawn in early in the mission and are unable to get out of. I'm not sure if there's a limit to the number of mobs that can spawn early on in survivals, but I've found that the number of 'Free' mobs is quite low until we find that room and if the wave is cleared with AoE/melee the spawns seem to get much better.

 

Just an observation.

 

The enemies will spawn in an inaccessible area, in this case past the path to extraction, attempt to run toward the nearest player (in general) and then... get stuck because the door they think they can path through won't open until the timer hits 5 minutes, therefore leaving those enemies taking up enemy "spaces" on the map but obviously there, not always able to be killed, and with any oxygen they drop well out of reach (at least for the first fives minutes).

 

If what the above poster is saying is true (I haven't tested) then it's possible for enemies to spawn in places that are 100% inaccessible to players and thus the enemies will just sit there unable to path to the player but still taking up a spawn slot.

 

Does that make more sense?

 

Yes, you can potentially mitigate this using either abilities that hit through walls or manipulation of the spawns but not every team is going to have those abilities and if you don't and the Capsules are in the room adjacent to such a blocked off area then you're rather thoroughly screwed.

[iString5]

Its a piece of cake if you have a Nekros ^-^

[spacedkadet]

Its a piece of cake if you have a Nekros ^-^

Someone else who didn't read the first sentence of the op.

 

 T3 void survival is bad due to not enough oxygen drops from mobs  and a nekros gives you another chance at not getting one because the most common mob (drones) have 0% chance.

 

 T3 survival is not hard because of enemy levels or bad gear or no teamwork or any other reason given by people who didn't read the OP, it's because not enough o2 drops there!

Edited October 22, 2013 by spacedkadet

[Paradoxbomb]

I can think of a few possible ways to ease the O2 issue:

 

>Make the chance of oxygen dropping increase as you get closer to 0%

>Make all kills restore an extremely small amount of oxygen

>Make oxygen drop after a certain number of enemies are killed rather than entirely random (or a combo of random/guaranteed drop)

>Heavies should have a guaranteed (or at least extremely likely) chance of dropping oxygen, which would balance out quite nicely down the road when 80% or more of the enemies become heavy units

>A mod/aura that reduces oxygen depletion rate and/or increases oxygen recovered from life support and pickups

>Lockers and containers could contain large oxygen packs for emergency use

>Possible O2 tank gear item that can be used to restore a small portion of oxygen in an emergency (perhaps each player can only carry one)

>Rework life support: instead of restoring a flat 30%, perhaps it could be used to restore significantly more as long as a player stands by it and holds down the x button. The catch is that you're defenseless during the process, so you'll need a good defense or a teammate to watch your back

 

But again, those are only possible suggestions, I'm not partial to any particular one or think any of them is perfect. IMO, survival was better with the ridiculously high oxygen drop rates, because while the need for oxygen kept players from camping a spot where they couldn't get killed, the focus wasn't ON the constant need for oxygen, but the actual survival portion of the game, when enemies start sky-rocketing in levels and every other unit is a heavy. That felt like a real fight for survival rather than the fight against RNG we currently have.

[Waikikamukau]

There are 3 variables in survivals that will cause you to fail.

 

1) Players popping life support too soon

 

2) Not enough drops to keep you going to the next pod

 

3) Overconfidence when the challenge is mitigated early on

 

To explain:

 

#1 - People not realizing the percentage of life support that is replenished when a capsule is popped and they hit it too early, this coupled with #2 can really strain your ability to stick around.

 

#2 - Enemies not dropping enough little boosts to keep you going long enough for the next capsule, mostly due to #1, but occasionally your luck runs thin and there just aren't enough dropping off the waves to get you through even with perfect capsule popping.

 

#3 - You have competent players and you're waltzing through the waves without dropping below 50%.  Then you get to around the 25-30 minute mark and things take a turn.  Suddenly, the difficulty increases, heavy mob density escalates and those without sufficient damage can't pull their weight anymore.  You get overwhelmed because 'this is easy, we don't have to end it yet' has been the mindset for so long now they don't see the inherent danger coming at them like a runaway train.

 

Honorable mention: #4 - Infested Poison.  If someone goes down in poison and their health is dropping quick, they're still in it.  Everyone wants to be a hero and save their fellow Tenno so they rush over, realize too late the poison cloud is still there, first Tenno dies and they go down, too.  Sometimes there are impossible situations, don't kill yourself trying to save someone.  Better to keep yourself up to finish than attempt an impossible save (I believe Rhino with Iron Skin is an exception to this).

 

There is a certain amount of L2P in this, but it's not always the answer.  You may know how to play perfectly well and be dealt a bad hand via RNG.  The ability to recognize the situation and adapt to it will lead to your success.  If that means getting out before 15 mins because of an unfortunate array of circumstances, so be it.

[taiiat]

Honorable mention: #4 - Infested Poison.  If someone goes down in poison and their health is dropping quick, they're still in it.  Everyone wants to be a hero and save their fellow Tenno so they rush over, realize too late the poison cloud is still there, first Tenno dies and they go down, too.  Sometimes there are impossible situations, don't kill yourself trying to save someone.  Better to keep yourself up to finish than attempt an impossible save (I believe Rhino with Iron Skin is an exception to this).

NO MAN LEFT BEHIND BRO

fight to the last breath, never back down, never give up, never give in. the fight isn't over so long as you're still alive.

 

 

 

anyways, well written. with any player, no matter how they complete a mission, there's always a l2p factor, even if the mission went 'perfect'. there's always something you could have done better to make the mission go better. but, sometimes the game just slaps you in the face, and says no. 

but the 'solution' to the problem isn't to just give up though, i don't think. players should always be encouraged to continue, encouraged to try more. even if it's unsafe to do so.

Edited October 22, 2013 by taiiat

[PapaKicks]

You're misunderstanding me, I'm referring to what the person quoted below is describing:

 

Does that make more sense?

 

Yes it does. My apologies.

[goozilla]

Exactly, removing all the blocked doors for any survival map would solve part of this problem linked to spawned enemies not appearing/not releasing O2.

Easier fix: use the defense maps just like the original Survival did.

Problem solved.

[taiiat]

Easier fix: use the defense maps just like the original Survival did.

Problem solved.

i disliked using the single Defense tile for Survival. it's boring after you do Survival a couple times then.

 

i got the impression that Survival was going to be a never ending, progression through rooms to escape the massive hordes of enemies chasing you. enough enemies to force you to constantly move in the opposite direction, and fight the much slimmer forces from that 'forwards' direction.

there would be multiple options to extract thusly, instead of just one.

clearly this isn't what Survival was intended to be, but i thought it was... and that sounded a lot cooler than what we have. 3-5 tiles for an unknown length of time, just standing around, killing some enemies from time to time? meh.